Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

GM News, New Models and Market Share

18687899192631

Comments

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    When/if they manage to bring the SRX here I'll give them proper credit...until then, yes, the STS is redundant (no one even thinks of the thing) the DTS is a land yacht, and they're selling Escalades for that much off in my area too. Scary, isn't it?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    American Bantam which was an evolution of American Austin - builder of 1930s minicars. Ford Jeeps were identifiable because they would stamp an "F" on all the bolt heads.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, there is still the question of what they will do in the future with the DTS. I haven't heard what they are planning, I just know that the DTS is getting older and older and older and...

    The DTS should come down a lot in price, I think, and maybe at the $40K price point it could sell quite nicely as the "squish-mobile" counterpoint to a proper sport STS. So could they accomplish that by continuing the Lucerne as that model? I dunno. Other luxury carmakers basically mint money making Euro-style sport models even in their larger cars, with Lexus the obvious exception. I think you could sell two models side by side that are approximately the same size and price range, if one is a dedicated sport model and the other is a luxo-cruiser without a whiff of road feel or noise (a la LS460 and the Lucerne, DTS, etc). The question is if such an approach can yield high enough profits to make it worth it.

    And Cadillac eventually needs a smaller version of the CTS, shortened on the same platform, to compete head to head with other automakers' entry models.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    And Cadillac eventually needs a smaller version of the CTS, shortened on the same platform, to compete head to head with other automakers' entry models.

    Don't they have the BLS in Europe?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    And Cadillac eventually needs a smaller version of the CTS, shortened on the same platform, to compete head to head with other automakers' entry models.

    That's something that always surprises me...the American brands always say no one's willing to buy a high end smaller car, and so they won't make them. And yet BMW sells lots of 3-series and Minis, Merc sells the C class, Acura sold a bunch of RSX and TSX, Lexus has somethingorother (dunno about Infiniti). They're making money off of them. I bet if Ford made a Mercury version of the Focus it'd sell (maybe not a Lincoln version...then again Ford should make Mercury their sport brand...liquid metal, very cool, heh).
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Andre,

    Didn't know your Catalina was a convert - cool man!! :shades: .

    Heck, around here 40-degrees is a heat wave (honestly even 30-degrees is nice considering the weather we've been getting this year)!! I've been tempted a couple of times to take the '86 Cutlass out, especially a few weeks ago when it hit 60+ degrees for a day, but left it on its jack-stands - I did pull the cover off and start it though. The '65 Impala, it'll see the light of day again come June.

    Before I sold it, I'd take the '66 Impala out year round as long as it wasn't too cold and the roads were nice. People thought I was NUTS!!
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    You know, I actually felt bad for Bantam feeling the government kind of shafted them on the whole deal. I can understand they were concerned whether or not the small company could keep up with the production capacity needed for the war effort. Bantam really needed that contract and they did get to make the trailers though. Not sure how many Jeeps they actually produced, if any.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Yes, I remember I had just started working my first "real" job with the truck supplier and I worked with GM, mostly on their HD truck side, though we did deal with the light-duty trucks / products as well. Talked to a couple of guys on the car side and couldn't believe they were going to discontinue the B-Body, turning the plant over into producing more trucks. Didn't think they were going to make that mistake, well what I thought was a huge mistake. I blew it off, figuring they wouldn't do something that stupid and low & behold, they stopped production. Myself and the marketing guy were heart-broken us being car fanatics and that we both were thinking of purchasing one. But I picked up the '66 a year later and started rebuilding it so was content somewhat.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    LS maybe, but the other 2, no. Land yachts aren't capable of cruising the Autobahn at more than twice the speed limit. A Cadillac (outside the CTS) would sway and wallow itself off the road before getting even close to the same speed.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Those '60s Chevies hold a special place in my heart. My Dad had a 1961 Biscayne two-door sedan, his friend had a gold 1964 Impala, my Uncle Charlie had a 1965 Impala, my Grandpop had both a 1964 Biscayne and a 1967 Bel Air, my Great-Grandpop had a 1967 Biscayne, the neighborhood grocer had a full-size 1968 wagon, my Uncle Daniel had a 1970 Impala Custom, and his neighbor had a 1966 Impala.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    There is no credit deserved. The SRX has gone from a respected RWD, multi-COY award winner to a front drive Chevy Cheapuinox clone. :sick:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    depends on who's driving it. I think I can handle my DTS pretty well as I had it up to some pretty high speeds on the PA Turnpike.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    The BLS is a FWD Saab 9-3 with a wreath and crest. It was beyond a failure. :sick:

    FWD and Cadillac need to disappear completely if the brand is ever going to get the same respect as it's German rivals.

    I don't care if I can walk into a Cadillac dealer and buy a 1000 hp, 200 mph track queen that can lap the Nurburg in 2 minutes flat as long as it is still sharing the same showroom floor with a front drive DTS sporting wire wheels, a landau roof and curb feelers , or a blinged out gangsta mobile rollin on 25 inch Frisbees that freewheel.

    Cadillac shows no focus. Sadly, the new SRX is showing signs that Cadillac is more interested in being a competitor to Acura and Volvo than the Germans.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    The Merc and Bimmer are governor limited to 155mph here in the states. They'll do well beyond that overseas. ;)
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    So GM's losses were occurring when the economy was good. And GM did nothing about their structure, management methods and slipping market-share until they were broke. And I'm supposed to support this type of company?

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/25/news/companies/auto_outlook/index.htm?postversio- n=2009022514
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I invite you to check out a couple of videos. Seriously, put your bias aside for just a few minutes. Take a serious listen to the engineering and little features that were engineered in to the new C-class.

    link title

    Now mind you, this is just a C-class which can be had for under 30 grand. All these technologies and features carry down from the bigger S-classes and even the Maybachs.

    Now listen to a review of the Cadillac CTS (CTS-V even). Listen to the supposed "features". Bigger wheels, bigger grill, very fast, etc...

    link title

    Both are very nice cars imo and I would be proud to own and drive each. But, when I am researching the Merc, I find innovation. I find engineering effort, I find attention to detail. With the Cadillac, I see just another car. Nice car, but nothing unique. Very American.

    I mean no offense by these comparisons. They are both very good cars.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Listen to the supposed "features". Bigger wheels, bigger grill, very fast, etc...

    Reminds me of those days I've heard about...bigger fins, biggest front end in the industry...maybe GM is still living in the 60s?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    He hasn't been around lately to tell us how far along GM is on their restructuring, how wonderful their product line is (I DO want to see the Cruze), etc etc...I kinda miss it. Takes some of the fun out of the thread.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    $35K, why can't one get a really high quality vehicle for $30K? Audi does it, Acura does it, Honda does it.....heck, even Toyota does it although with slightly more economical interiors.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    to hear what "high quality" Toyota one can get for $30K. The quality interiors and vehicle dynamics are all reserved for the Lexus line at Toyota Inc., that much I know. And it is very hard to find a Lexus you can get for $30K. $35K, yes.

    To those who would knock the new SRX, I would say that it should not be forgotten that the Lexus RX, FWD and based haevily on the Highlander and all, is in many months the #1 seller of all the Lexi. If it deviates slightly from the new Cadillac philosophy, the new SRX should still be a source of nice profits for GM.

    To those who would say that the current DTS is an autobahn-worthy competitor to the likes of the S-class, even the LS, I would say test drive the competition. The difference is almost blinding. But there are others here dismissing the STS, and since the model changeover it is my understanding that it is just a larger CTS on a stretched version of the same platform, and while it may be a little outclassed by the competition, it is very much NOT a wallowing Cadillac-of-old.

    The European BLS in't going to cut it in my hypothetical reconstruction model - a proper RWD smaller car is demanded in this price range, which could be developed off the existing CTS platform, using at least one of the same powertrains.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    I thought they were governed to 155 period, regardless of whether they are NA-bound or stay in Europe / Germany :confuse: . I remember reading years ago about them, as well as Japan manufacturers, about an agreement of sorts, to govern cars to a max of 155mph. Maybe due to the tire technology and / or other hardware, as well as driver skill?

    But you're right, uncorked those vehicles can roll. The S-Class is a really nice machine, and quite comfy-cozy!!
  • TIMGT5TIMGT5 Member Posts: 50
    As I have heard previously the DTS will eventually be phased out. The replacement for the STS will ride on a longer wheelbase to further seperate it in size from the CTS. Such a car is in fact already sold by GM in China under the moniker SLS.

    V8s and front wheel drive platforms really do not work that well, and only GM has tried to stick with it. GM is learning though that this combination will never match the prowess of the LS400, S-Class, A8 or 7 series BMW. So if it is going up against that crowd 300Hp and FWD will not cut it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I don't care if I can walk into a Cadillac dealer and buy a 1000 hp, 200 mph track queen that can lap the Nurburg in 2 minutes flat as long as it is still sharing the same showroom floor with a front drive DTS sporting wire wheels, a landau roof and curb feelers , or a blinged out gangsta mobile rollin on 25 inch Frisbees that freewheel.

    No such beast resides at my Cadillac dealer and my own car is free of any of that self-destructive add-on junk. In fact, no Cadillac has come from the factory with either a vinyl roof or wire wheels since at least 1996 if I include the old school Fleetwood Brougham.

    What people do to their cars after they purchase them is their business. Heck, I've seen plenty of new BMW 7-Series sporting, of all things, aftermarket Buick portholes. I've actually seen a C-Class sporting fake Ferrari Testarossa side grilles.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    There are a whole load of GM's prior to 1971 that hold a special place in my heart.

    After that, ZERO outside of the enduring Corvette.

    IDIOTS!

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Try a 750 with sport package. You will understand then. If you have an open mind, that is.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The Caddy engines will detonate after 120 MPH.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I applaud your impartiality. Before 2008, Caddy wasn't in the same league vs. BMW, Mercedes or Audi in any of their cars.

    I must admit I did not know how much any US sedan was out-classed until I drove the competition. It took the CTS that year to drastically change that for 1 model.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    He mentioned he would be gone for awhile...wait until Feb. sales figures next week and I'm sure he will be back to accentuate the positive.

    I feel bad that he is being crushed by the current events regarding GM's plight.

    Regards,
    OW
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I have to disagree with this. The last 2 times that C&D tested mid sized sedans, they gave the Camry no love. Both the Aura and Malibu came out ahead, although the Accord, both in '07 and '08 clothes, came in on top.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Sure it was. I think Autoblog has a post showing that the 7 series has the highest depreciation (% wise) of any car after 1 year (Maybach or Bentley was #1 $ wise). #2??? Lincoln Town Car.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Hey, the Malibu is what GM should have been making 10 years ago. I agree that is is in the same league now as the competition. Hopefully, the durability plays out over the years.

    Now, if they made it look like this, I'm sold!

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Agree on the depreciation. Pretty bad. Speaks to the over-priced nature of BMW and Merc. After all, you have to pay for the name...you just get more percentage-wise than with Caddy. They take a pretty bad hit as well.

    All of the high-end cars are taking a big hit lately. Now is the time to pounce if you've got the dinero!

    Regards,
    OW
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Land yachts? Heck, my DTS barely qualifies as a midsize by my standards and they made the STS way too small.

    Wouldn't you classify the S-Class, 7-Series, and LS as land yachts, or do they get a pass because they're imports?


    In this context I believe yacht means "big and floaty". Those other cars are big but probably only the LS is even a bit floaty.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    What is meant by real world?

    Some place other than where you are? :P

    Sorry, I just had to do that!
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    That's good. GM might have been better off in retroing this Malibu rather than the lame 69 Camaro. At least they could have justified the pork weight.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    [vette]...He hasn't been around lately to tell us how far along GM is on their restructuring, how wonderful their product line is (I DO want to see the Cruze), etc etc...I kinda miss it. Takes some of the fun out of the thread.

    Agreed. Hope he's ok. You would think even if he lost his job he would be able to post. 62', if you are out there, we are missing your input. :cry:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Actually, that '68 car weighed 3,309 lbs.

    The 2009 weighs 3,415 lbs. The 2010 Camaro SS is 3,913 lbs.!!

    Consider the SS396 Chevelle, and there you have it! The old one wins! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The R&T article I read a few months ago pegged the '10 V6 Camaro at 3700 lbs. 50 lbs more than my '96 riv coupe but 60 more HP, side air bags, a 5 or 6 speed auto instead of a 4 speed, and bigger tires and bigger brakes. A lot for 50 lbs. It is 2 feet shorter lost in rear seat leg room and trunk volume. The V8 is 218 lbs more than the V6?

    '68 Malibu at 3309 lbs? No a/c, no power windows, antenna, door locks, or mirrors, no leather, no air bags (6), no auto trans, no 5th gear, no stability control, no alloy wheels, no sunroof, no 8 spkr Bose stereo, no CD, and maybe 30 more things not in the car.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Actually, that '68 car weighed 3,309 lbs."

    Close. The V-8 weighed 3,170, while the SS396 weighed 3,475 (coupe)

    Camaro was about 100 lbs lighter in both respects.

    But dave is right about the safety equiptment, and these old cars would've folded like a pup tent in a hurricane, as they had very little safety engineered in them.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    You just have to type in a zip code from the qualifying areas. I used 47405 from my old alma mater.

    Anyway, I don't know what this banker guy's been smoking:

    Praise for American cars isn’t limited to the enthusiast press. James E. Malackowski, president of Ocean Tomo LLC, a Chicago merchant bank, wrote: “GM has higher average quality and newer green technology and patents than the other 14 automakers combined. Ford and GM together hold approximately a third of all green technology patents. GM has 70 percent of the patents in the emerging technology category. This domestic share increases to 85 percent if Ford is added.”
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    So about 800 lbs more for a similar V8 Camaro about 42 years later. How do they compare on a skidpad? accident? warranty? gas mileage? 0-60? features? No Comparison.

    On Value of a 2010 Camaro?
    I paid $10,600 for a new '84 V6 Camaro. 105 HP!!!! My '82 house has gone from $53k to $253k and now back down to $180k with the bubble bursting. It will now buy 8 of next year's V6 Camaro's if the base price really starts at $22k as R&T stated, which is only twice the price of my '84. I think mine stickered for $11,600 in '84. Then, Look at what the 2010 model has: Nearly triple the HP, 500 lbs more materials converted into dozens of std features, all the safety equipment, 5x the warranty, and 15x the reliability. The 300 HP V6 in the new one also gets 26 mpg hwy like my '84 did. Then we wonder why UAW and salary wages are up 5x since '83 and GM can't make a profit at cars. Perot said there'd be a giant sucking sound down by the Rio Grande. He didn't fortell the other one at the Left Coast.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    But they were designed far better from an exterior looks stand point. That is the point. Today's Malibu is just ho-hum in comparison when you look at it.

    Agree the added weight also adds tons of safety and convenience. Death lives in the older cars.

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Uh, my engines should've detonated a long time ago then.
  • bvdj84bvdj84 Member Posts: 1,724
    Well, how come I look at the apparent values for used cars thare 2005-06, and they are priced the value of what my car is worth and its an 08. What in the world is up with that? My car is much more loaded that than those cars, but yet the value of my car is that of the 05 car. So wouldn't my value be higher. But, I think its the initial year that used cars take a huge hit, and then it levels off. But, dealers mark their used cars up! They better be careful, cars are piling up! There are cars that I test drove last year this time still sitting on the lot, have already had their oils changed. Used cars that I seen sitting their are still there. That is bad! I really do not consider them new anymore. They need to be moved to the used lots. If I want a new car, I want new, straight off the wrapper. I got my 08 Jetta like that! Its the best!

    The values are all messed up! Once I am a little further away from the one year mark of my car, my value should start to level of, along with pay off. Still not where I need it though.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I prefer the 1970 model myself, but any GM A-body from that period is nice. You won't seen anything that nice from anybody anymore.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Nearly triple the HP, 500 lbs more materials converted into dozens of std features, all the safety equipment, 5x the warranty, and 15x the reliability.

    Yep and if you look at the computer industry, you'll see even more dramatic improvement. People have on their desktops what used to be the supercomputer at Sandia Labs in 1984. And yet computer manufacturers are struglling to stay in business, make many components overseas, and employ temporaries here in the U.SS. at about $10/hr with no benefits.

    Product performance is not really relevant to making profit or good wages, unless your company makes something substantially better then the rest of the companies. All cars and car companies have improved.

    The problem is there is too much capacity globally. There was getting to be too much capacity even when the economy was good. Manufacturers even then were losing money.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I liked the 1970 as well. I would think that it would be easy to design a close replica in today's cars that at least looked as enticing as those lost years.

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Cars and computers have largely become commodity items eh?

    GM Posts $30.9-Billion Loss for 2008, Second Biggest Ever
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Seriously. Why wouldn't it be less expensive to jsut take over GM entirely?

    Fire the entire management. Fire everyone up top. Have GM do nothing but build fleet cars at cost for the government.(plus do some r&d and so on of course).

    No dealers and no advertising budget.

    In any case I'd make it a condition to get another DIME of funding that GM's entire management needs to go. They clearly can't figure it out.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Agreed that GM is just a waste of money.

    Chrysler is even worse!

    Ford is surviving, good for them. They should be the lone remnant of the Big 3 failures!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Sign In or Register to comment.