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I could've used limited slip yesterday, when I got my '85 Silverado stuck in the yard.
I've always wondered if it was really worth it to come out with those undersized V-8's. The Olds 260 was actually the lowest-rated, only 100-110 hp, depending on the year. I think the Chevy 267 had 115-125 hp, depending on the year, while the Pontiac 265 put out about 120 hp. But in that same era, they had the Buick 231 V-6 that had 105-115 hp, the Chevy 229, with 110-115, the Chevy 250 inline-6 with 105-110, and the Buick 252 V-6 with 125 hp.
The V-8's might have been slightly torquier, but they'd also be heavier, so that probably offset most of the power gain.
CR tested a 1977 Cutlass sedan with the 260 V-8. They pitted it against an Impala/Caprice 305, an LTD-II with a 302, and Fury or Monaco with a 318 I think there might have been an AMC Matador in that test, too. The test was supposed to showcase how advanced the downsized big Chevy was, and how obsolete it made the old-school intermediates. And for the most part, the Chevy did well. I think the Mopar 318 was slightly quicker, although 0-60 came up in around 12-13 seconds for all of them...except the Cutlass. I think it clocked 0-60 in around 21 seconds! :surprise:
One of the most mismatched engine choices I can think of was the 1976 Buick LeSabre, which offered a 231 V-6. If the midsized Cutlass was clocking ~21 seconds with 100-110 hp, I hate to think how long it would take a mammoth, pre-downsized LeSabre with similar hp, but probably less torque!
One of the most mismatched engine choices I can think of was the 1976 Buick LeSabre, which offered a 231 V-6. If the midsized Cutlass was clocking ~21 seconds with 100-110 hp, I hate to think how long it would take a mammoth, pre-downsized LeSabre with similar hp, but probably less torque!
No that's not a surprise. My '86 Escort with a 4 speed manual felt like a rocket compared to my friends 260 v8 powered Cutlass. 21 seconds to 60 in just insane. That could get you killed in big city traffic now days.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Dispatch/market-dispatches-030309- .aspx
General Motors (GM, news, msgs) said its sales fell 52.9% from a year ago. Ford Motor (F, news, msgs) said its February sales were off 48%. Toyota Motor (TM, news, msgs) said its sales fell 40% from a year ago.
.....The recession is wreaking havoc with the automakers. And it doesn't matter if you're based in the United States or elsewhere.
General Motors sales fell to 127,296 units in February from 270,423 units a year ago. Ford sales were down 48% to 99,050, including sales from its Volvo subsidiary. And Toyota sales were down 40% to 109,583.
Chrysler Group said sales fell 44% to 84,050. But the company said most of the sales decline was due to falling "fleet sales" -- sales of vehicles to large buyers like rental-car companies.
The sales translated into a seasonally-adjusted annual rate of 9.1 million units, the worst level since December 1981, when the population was 25% lower, market researcher Autodata said.
Analysts had forecast a seasonally annualized adjusted rate of sales of 9 million to 10 million. (That statistic shows what sales would be for the full year if they continued at the same rate as that month with adjustments for typical seasonal fluctuations.)
Total sales for GM, Ford and Chrysler plunged 37% in January.
Analysts were hopeful that the first quarter would be the bottom for auto sales, but that assumes the economy starts to perk up again in the fall. As it is, the automakers aren't making big bets. Ford said it would cut production in the second quarter by 38%.
I don't foresee a late-2009 bounce-back for the auto industry or the economy, do you? I can't imagine giving any more money to GM and even attempting to call it a "loan" with a straight face.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Saw an article today in WSJ that Geely of China was going to bid on Volvo. Geely not big enough to also buy Buick, but maybe Chinese govt could step in and help them. Let's see, would they name the Lacrosse the Geely Lacrosse or the Geely Buick Lacrosse Deluxe. They could sell them at Walmart just like thousands of other Chinese stuff.
This company is losing like $2 billion a month. There is no way a sale of Buick would fund more than maybe 15 days of that torrential cascade of dollars. Probably more like 10 days.
I thought the Geely bid for Volvo had been ruled out for some reason? Maybe I am thinking of something else.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No. (If you look at the congressional meetings, no one has a straight face.)
The SAAR could drop to $9MM or under. The problem with the forecasters is they can't predict consumer buying patterns correctly. The economy has not bottomed yet. Keep watching the jobs numbers. If job losses contract, that indicates a mark toward a bottom. We're not there yet. This could last another year as a V-shaped recovery is extremely highly unlikely.
C11 with or without a straight face is going to happen. Call it anything they want.
Regards,
OW
At that level, nearly every automaker is struggling and GM and Chrysler, which are requesting $21.6 billion in additional loans from the U.S. government, said they likely will need it all. Additional government aid to keep the automakers out of bankruptcy is making less sense, because it has become difficult to project an end to the sales declines, said Stephen Spivey, an automotive analyst at Frost & Sullivan in San Antonio.
“If it stays contracted at this rate for a significant period of time, the bridge loans are being recalled and they are going into bankruptcy,” Spivey said yesterday in an interview after the sales results.
I believe that this will be the case as the recovery is now being predicted towards the end of 2009 at the earliest. Stands to reason if the stock market is a 6 month leading indicator.
Best case scenario is Obama's team keeps pumping loans into GM and C to keep operating. There is no model that makes profit at these levels of sales in the US. Subaru is the only marquee that had positive sales numbers.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Those people are ridiculous, or foolish optimists. The effect of all these layoffs the last couple of months has not really hit the economy yet. If these people haven't found a job, they are probably drawing down any savings or putting their expenses on credit cards. If they haven't found a job when unemployment runs out late this year, then that accelerates.
Millions of people defaulting on credit cards, which again were given out to everyone regardless of ability to repay, is the next crisis that will hit the financial industries. There won't be any recovery in 2010.
my prediction is if the government does everything right, we have about a 25% chance of avoiding a full-blown depression.
That is way overblown in my opinion. Credit card debt outstanding is about $1 Trillion compared to over $12 trillion for mortgage debt. CC debt/income has stayed around 9% since 1999. Mortgages OTOH, have gone from 65% debt/income in 2000 to over 100% in 2008, meaning it was a bubble that had to pop. No doubt delinquencies will increase, but I don't believe it will create problems like the mortgages have.
I do agree that the process of deleveraging will take probably until at least 2010 to clear up. With boomers trying to save more for retirement to make up for what they've lost in the market and their real estate holdings, buying an expensive car is probably the last thing on their mind. This was the case for my parents. They have a second house in Florida they've been trying to sell for 2 years. Dad was planning on a loaded CTS or MKS type car. Instead of spending 45-50 grand on a car, he cut back spent under $30k for a loaded Accord. My parents went from traveling and spending on themselves and the grand kids to trying to save every penny to bulk up their funds.
Same thing happened in Japan in the 90's. Car sales in Japan never recovered. Granted their demographics are a bit different from ours, but the parallels between their problems and ours are quite alarming. It will be along time until we see 16 million plus cars a year. The days of people trading every two years may never return.
Atrocious.
Terrible.
Miserable.
Incompetent.
Fraudulant.
Forseeable.
Completely Predictable.
A runaway train.
It's over, time to throw in the towel!
They should go bankrupt in disgrace. If they'd of disappeared 10 years ago, they could have dissappeared with a tiny bit of honor, but no more, that opportunity has long passed.
GM auditors raise doubts on automaker's viability
GM auditors cite losses, lack of cash flow in raising doubts about its viability
* Tom Krisher, AP Auto Writer
* Thursday March 5, 2009, 6:37 am EST
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. says its auditors have raised substantial doubt about the company's ability to continue operations.
The troubled automaker revealed the auditors' concerns in its annual report filed on Thursday.
GM has received $13.4 billion in federal loans as it tries to survive the worst auto sales climate in 27 years. It is seeking a total of $30 billion from the government. During the past three years it has piled up $82 billion in losses, including $30.9 billion in 2008.
GM says in its report that its auditors cited recurring losses from operations, stockholders' deficit and an inability to generate enough cash to meet its obligations in raising substantial doubts about its ability to continue as a going concern.
Regards,
OW
That is now. It will be much higher in 9 - 12 months. Maybe $2T then. $1T - $2T is certainly MORE than all the TARP funds which are now being used to save the banks from crisis. So you think it's no big deal the government will just throw another $1T+ at the banks? And because of the credit card defaults even good customers (backlash), will have trouble getting a card and pay 20% interest?
I agree with you otherwise.
GM and Chrysler are toast unless the government decides to subsidize them for years to come.
Reminds me of the 1960s when I visited my folks in Idaho. There was a huge surplus of potatoes. The farmers could not give them away so they rotted in the ground. Maybe the auto manufacturers should get tied in with the lottery and give cars away on lottery tickets.
I understand where your coming from, but banks have been cutting credit card limits and even if CC debt doubles to 2T, it's crazy to think it's all going to default. Current CC default rates are around 7% and is expected to peak around 10%. 2005 was the highest CC default rate ever at 7.5% when people rushed to bankruptcy court to avoid changes bankruptcy laws that were implemented.
It will be a problem with the recovery, but at this point, I don't see it being anywhere near the problem as the mortgage mess. Retailing may never be the same. That shake out has only begun. I think peoples outlook on debt is changing and I'm concerned we will go from having excessive personal spending to excessive savings.
Granted, this whole thing is still developing, and certainly I'm only presenting my opinion based on the info I've read. I'm not saying your wrong, but only my opinion differs from yours. I hope we're both wrong and the recovery is upon us.
Really what this all means is the likely hood of GM surviving w/o government assistance for the next few years is slim. I expect some type of bankruptcy, I don't see how they ever be profitable at their current debt levels. That debt has to go away.
I have no sympathy for them, when the let all those chances slip right on by. They will go under, if they do not do something drastic to fix or control the issues. This does NOT mean borrowing more money. I am not sure what could be done, perhaps a HUGE downsize. It will hurt, but not as much as when they go completely under. Either take the blow now, or take such a huge hit, that they might not ever be able to recover enough to move ahead. However, people will certainly remember this, and doubt the company. That alone will limit its buyers now and in the future. As a consumer, why would I want to buy a new car that is already so upside down in value, that I will never be able to sell or trade the car for years. Its to where the real-world values of the cars are not on par with the price tag on the car. The differences are great.
I do not want them to fail. I believe they can be a great company, they just got too big for their own good, too big of an ego. It finally caught up with them.
However, they should not borrow anymore money. I do not want failure for them.
They are functionally broke, every loss from now on must be funded dollar for dollar by more government bailout.
For the remainder of 2009, their costs will be as high as they were last year, save for some new labor savings, unless they can get their debts reorganized and mostly forgiven, which seems unlikely given that they want to pay stock and debtholders in new GM stock - what good is that in a company with no future?
The amount they may generate from a sale of Hummer and Saab, even if both are successful, is a drop in the bucket of their enormous ongoing losses.
This company is a corpse in denial of its own death. If the taxpayers prop up this company in a new environment of much lower annual sales, we will be out $30, $40, maybe $50 billion per year for the next couple of years that WE WILL NEVER GET BACK. Why is that worth it? It is much higher than the costs that would be incurred from just liquidating. And there will still be a domestic auto industry, if for no other reason than that Ford is still out there quietly ticking along. When it all shakes out in the liquidation, I am betting the Chevy and Cadillac brands will continue operating - someone will want to pick them up, and in a liquidation the price should be right.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So well put! The best outcome would be a way to save the 20% (I'm being charitable) of GM that is really good and discard the rest. Preserve the gold nuggets of the US auto industry and trash all else.
Balances are nuts on plastic.
costs are a function of quantity of products produced. As they build less cars, they order less parts from suppliers. Their costs are dropping significantly. Their fixed costs like owning the Milford Proving Grounds and payinf CEO's does remain the same. Their interest on debt is going up. The reduced parts ordering, however, is steering the ship right now.
That's an extremely better business model than the current state of affairs.
Regards,
OW
The next step is: Pay me now or later but you WILL pay.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Interesting!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Chevrolet would build the trucks, vans, SUVs, Cross-overs, Corvette, and everyday subcompact, compact, and midsize cars.
Buick would build upscale near-luxury cars in the same tier as, say, Acura.
Cadillac would be no-holds-barred, no-compromises luxury cars.
I know, you never got a lemon from the Big 3. However, I'd hypothesize that Ford has sold less lemons than GM or Chrysler.
Even in the heyday of the Big Three, I'd have chosen a Cadillac or Imperial over a Lincoln. Ford cars always seemed rather dull compared to their competition. Maybe they just fit in better in this age of dull, tedious, boring, soulless, appliance-like, zero-personality cars. Good God, what a choice. Ford or an import. That's like choosing between a root canal sans Novocaine or spinal tap sans anesthetic!
By comparison, GM has...? It has introduced the FOURTH version of its Lambda crossover. Aveo, Cobalt, and Impala have much murkier futures, it would seem, what with Cruze on hold or pushed back, and a new Lacrosse coming without any such happy news for the Impala.....indeed this is perfectly typical of why GM is failing, and proof that even on the verge of collapse it is unable to change.
It's time for GM to be reorganized from without, under the safety umbrella of the government's helping hands. There's no point in flushing any more money down this drain.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Dude, not to be cliche, but...Have you driven a Ford? Lately? These days they're more like the antonym of "dull, tedious, boring, soulless, appliance-like, zero-personality." Those adjectives I would instead apply to all GMs not branded Cadillac (and some that are).
Wow, those are powerful words from a Buick owner.
Alas it is not an ideal world.The best case scenario-Gm needs to file bankruptcy.It has too many brands,insurmountable costs,poor reliability and horrible resale values.
They cannot undergo cost restructuring without bankruptcy.
They make such lousy cars, I wonder how people still are buying them.Most of the people buying cars do not want to be in the mechanic`s shop or cars with poor rides or comfort.It is better they close,since that is the only way to eliminate their costs.
And,America need not worry.We will get a new leaner,reliable domestic automaker.that is just the way of capitalism.Poor performers lose,, better ones survive.
A nice example would be the legacy airline carriers vs the low cost ones like southwest or Jetblue.They are more efficient,flexible with good management.So I would say,,let GM go down under,,,we will get a more efficient domestic alternative instead,,as people inevitably have to buy cars .
Just,mho.
Yeah, kind of like the pot calling the go-kart an appliance.
LOL. Buick is not an appliance, but a suede covered couch with wheels, I have some high tech appliances that are engineered well.
I've driven many, many Buick's over the past few decades in in my opinion every one SUCKED!!!!!!!! Unless your a passenger, then you ride in relative comfort.
I'll give the Enclave and a v8 Lucerne a pass since I've never driven them. The 3.8 powered Lucerne OTOH can go straight to the crusher though. That engine has absolutely no business being put in anything other than a low rent car. So maybe it is okay. LOL
it IS in a low-rent car...it's in a GM. :shades:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
10 more months this year = $45 billion that will disappear by Christmas, and for what? How much would it cost us to mop after the mess GM makes when it falls, instead of trying to prevent the fall? If there are really 1 million people that would lose their job by year's end, that's still $45,000 per worker. If it is just a case of propping up suppliers, that could be done for 1/10th of the cost of propping up GM.
And now they are saying that even with the extra $4 billion the government just gave them, they won't make it to month's end!!!!!!!!!!
START THE CH. 7 PROCEEDINGS NOW.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think that might depend on the person just as much as the car. FWIW, most cars nowadays kill my lower back given enough time, because the shape of the seat often forces me into a slouching position. It's as if there's too much padding up high around my shoulders, and not enough down around my lower back.
Strangely enough, one of the best cars I've ever had for lower back support is a 1976 Grand LeMans. Now, it does other things bad, such as having no side bolstering to keep you in place during spirited driving, and headrests that would be of no use whatsoever if the car got rear-ended. But it still manages to do two things that many modern cars are incapable of...support my lower back and give me thigh support.
Think of how rich I'd be if Americans had appointed me the dictator of the USA back in 2000. How much money would I have saved taxpayers since 2000 if I had closed the doors on 1/1/00? All that money could have made all us Americans much more wealthy.
How much have they lost in the last 9 years? The number must be gigantic.
I don't think so. They aren't in the soup like the other 2 because they mortgaged their proporties to the hilt for a line of credit. God forbid this economy stays sour for more than a year and they will find themselves right where GM is now.
And if Toyota is truely has the debt that some have suggested ($120 billion) from expanding as much as they have the last few years, then they can't be far behind, either.
Good point, Ford's have been hit or miss. The seats in the '98 Ford SVT Contour I had were among the most comfortable of any vehicle I've owned. My Suburban was pretty bad, comfortable for about an hour, then I couldn't wait to get out of it. My 07 Expedition is really comfortable, my wife's 07 Grand Prix company car is horrible. GM should be ashamed to put such a horrible product on the street. They should hand out chiropractic services with each one of those POS's they put on the street.
OK Homey, I'll bite. What makes you and "expert" on how lousy they are????
Well, I've taken my Park Avenue AND my Rainier on several trips longer than 200 miles, and they are comfortable. Great rides, quiet, nice equiptment, and great fuel economy. I've never gotten less than 30 mpg in the P.A. (which is rated at 27), and 22 in the Rainier (which is rated at 20). And no, I wasn't alone. There was at least 600 lbs in passengers.
The big problem I see if that people keep repeating things that aren't true about specific things such as the 3800 and keep repeating generalities about the GM cars without any real reason other than it's in to be against the US brands.
Sometimes people recite stories about a car they had or someone they knew had a car that's decades ago and that's their reason to hate GM. Things changed at GM, although slowly, and today's cars are better and competition to the foreign company's equivalent offerings. People need to take a good look at the change.
Couple that with all the negativity toward spending by the population today and GM is having trouble even selling cars. With constant news that they might be out of business reminding people every day, many are afraid to buy a vehicle. Add the lack of leadership from the administration many people are holding back on all spending.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,