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Their cars are almost 3 generations behind other makes.Look at their platforms,designs,technology- they still use dated 90`s technology with some exterior cosmetic changes and expect people to buy them.If the govt.was giving me bailout money,then I would buy them.It is easy to burn other`s money.
Hope--Ah!! -the saviour of everyone-- And hope,sales pick up.Hope people will buy only GM.Hope folks will abandon other car brands.Hope reliability improves overnight by a miracle.Hope their cars are better.Hope the dealers are generous and will give up their dealerships for free.
The problem is for Gm to be taken seriously,they have to be better than the Japanese.Not enough even if they are on competent terms.They have to be a generation ahead of Japanese for sales to pick up..And right now they are 2 generations behind.So from today`s position they have to get 3 generations ahead -with no funds,huge costs,low sales,many brands etc etc.
You got to appreciate the Koreans-- from nowhere to good quality reliable cars.
The best way is -- Hope,hope,hope..Burn people`s cash and hope again.
Only solution is to go bankrupt- get a new management team ,lower costs ,improve efficiency and try to make a comeback with cars that folks will buy.
Giving them more cash,, would be like feeding a morbidly obese,dying overbloated pig with the most expensive exotic cuisine from a Manhattan restaurant --with the people`s money..What luxury!!!
I see the bailout as the lesser of two evils. We have one in 9 US homeowners not able to stay current on their mortgages. How much worse do you want it to become, with your calling for immediate bankruptcy?
Thus far, it has been money down the toilet. I favor giving them gov. help to restructure via C11.
I only repeat first hand experience from my POS 2000 Suburban to my wife's 01 Impala that was poorly built and engineered to her current 07 Grand Prix that is even worse in terms of usability and comfort. It's like a giant version of my wife's '92 Saturn SL2 that was horrid. I don't think I've ever driven a GM car that I can honestly say I've liked. I did test drive a new Saturn Aura XR when introduced and it was OK. Meaning great for a GM product. I did like my Grandpa's 87 Caprice Classic Brougham LS back in the day. I actually liked that car. It was comfortable, stylish, and the ole' 305 with a 4 barrel sounded kind of nice. Other than that I've regretted every GM product I've spent my money on, thankfully the majority of GM products my wife has had have been company cars. We're counting the days until the GP is replaced.
If everyone lived like you and I, didn't run to amass debt, bought only when they could afford it, saved a little for a rainy day - we'd be in a lot less trouble today, both in the short term and long term.
Pessimism and tightness now has nothing to do with the regime in control.
Is corporate America/Japan the regime in control? Those with other people's money were forced to lend it to those who never intended to pay it back. That was Big Gov.t forcing the American dream of home ownership on corporations with money to lend. Plenty of sleazes in the financial markets were making a killing off of it. Now they are unemployed but got 20 million dollar going away presents. The trade defecit didn't help. Badmouthing American made didn't help. Too many foreign suv purchases were made with home equity money that couldn't be paid back by those who at one time could make their house payments. Now one in 11 homes is in default.
I read today that an additional $3500 comes off a new Chrysler veh price if you come to buy with cash or outside financing.
"General Motors Corp., as expected, said its auditors had raised "substantial doubt" about the automaker's ability to survive if it fails to end losses and its cash burn, according to the company's annual report filed with the federal government's Securities and Exchange Commission Thursday morning.
"Our future is dependent on our ability to execute our viability plan," GM said in its annual report. "If we fail to do so for any reason, we would not be able to continue as a going concern and could potentially be forced to seek relief through a filing under the U.S. bankruptcy code."
GM's Survival in "Substantial Doubt," Its Auditors Say (AutoObserver)
And I didn't see this tidbit mentioned:
GM's Wagoner Made $5.5 Million in 2008; Will Be Paid $1 In 2009
GM's Wagoner Made $5.5 Million in 2008; Will Be Paid $1 In 2009
What exactly did he do, besides destroy GM, to earn $5.5 million?
At least Ford is still a family business...yeah, they get supersweet stock, but they're also not going to let ANYONE do to Grampa Henry's business what Waggoner did to GM. Maybe there's something to be said for family businesses...I give the example of Circuit City (Ch7) versus P.C Richard and Son (expanding, around for 99 years now).
Here's why the viability plan will not work for GM and the C11 decision must be made:
Even in the best-case scenario that the relief efforts work and the recession ends later in 2009, the unemployment rate is expected to keep climbing, hitting 9 percent or higher this year. In fact, the Federal Reserve thinks the unemployment rate will stay elevated into 2011. Economists say the job market may not get back to normal -- meaning a 5 percent unemployment rate -- until 2013.
full story:
Relentless
Time to pack it in, Wagoner. Valiant effort but WAYYYYY to late.
Regards,
OW
Chinese can buy Buick and take over just like they did the IBM Thinkpad. The Saturn dealers, who possibly will handle a potpurri of brands/models in the future, could import Chinese Buicks to extent there is even demand.
As for my passengers? They LOVE the plush seats in the '88 Park Ave and miss the fact that no manufacturer makes seats as comfortable as them anymore.
It'll suck having to go to Shanghai every couple of years to get my new car, but it'll be interesting to see a country that still works. In a sense, it'll be a time capsule of what we were 50 years ago before greed and avarice destroyed everything.
As far a money being toilet paper, mine might as well be if GM goes under. There will be nothing worth buying. I could have a fortune bigger than that of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Rupert Murdoch, and Ted Turner combined and it would be worth nothing to me without a new Cadillac or Buick to buy.
I would say that is a very small percentage of the mortgages going bad. That person has some equity left even with the market going down. I do agree that person has a credible reason to be helped.
On China buying Buick WHEN GM folds. They could always sell them at the Chery dealership or WalMart. The Chery Buick, has a certain ring to it :shades:
I would say the majority of equity was used on vehicles, vacations, boats, toys etc. All technically illegal if you write off that portion of the interest. There were some lenders encouraging people to play the stock market with their equity up to 105% of the home value. Now we are bailing them out. :sick: It is all disgusting to me. Including giving money to GM or any automaker. That is rewarding bad behavior.
It is very widespread and will be tough. I don't think the bailouts are going to help anyone that is in need of help. It is all just corporate welfare. It may keep GM and C going a few more months. How many poor people do you know with more than $100k in any bank. Now FDIC is up to $250k per person per bank. That is half a million in every bank. Not in my league or any of my working class friends. Take the GM bailouts. How does that help the guy in a small shop making parts for the auto makers? Or the guy fixing cars at the dealership that cannot sell any cars. It is bailing out the rich and very rich pure and simple. Much worse than dribble down economics.
Boat's and RV's can qualify for the interest deduction on their own if they have a head (potty) and galley (kitchen). Boat and RV sales have basically stopped in California and Florida ever since the real estate collapse (and slow everywhere else). I don't understand how someone thinks they can buy a $150k boat just because their house appreciated on paper by $150k (that's still borrowing, unless you sell the house and live on the boa). Crazy, and we shouldn't be bailing those idiots out.
Gagrice, your dead on regarding pulling equity to invest. I had a associate in '03 that talked me into going to a meeting for a so called "great" investment opportunity. I only went as a favor. This tool (whom was a church associate) was trying to convince homeowners to refinance up to 120% of home value to invest in the stock market, that way (in theory) you'd make out on home appreciation and investment appreciation in the market. Not one word was mentioned on any downside risk. I literally laughed at the meeting and told the guy he was a #$%^&&* scam artist, that didn't sit well with the brainwashed bible thumpers, but at least I was able to save my friend from his church buddy.
The church crowd seems to be easy targets. Seams every good scam artists is a church member, must be like shooting ducks in a kiddie pool for these opportunists.
Just think 6 years later, your now upside down on your house, and the money you borrowed has lost 50%+ in the market. We shouldn't have to bail these fools out. Only those who once could afford their house, but due to layoffs etc. can no longer afford their homes should be eligible.
Ideally, GM would have put Buick up for sale before getting govt handouts. As time goes on, they will get less from the Chinese. If only GM would have noticed the consensus of posters here on Edmunds saying for years that they need to slim down and get rid of a lot of brands and models. We are the smartest and most savvy. Does anybody listen to us?
Supporters in the U.S. say protecting domestic industries, no matter what other nations do in retaliation, is vital if we are to maintain our manufacturing capability and the high paying jobs that go with it.
"The manufacturing base here is totally inadequate to support first-world living standards," said Alan Tonelson, a research fellow at the U.S. Business and Industry Council, which represents smaller and mid-size manufacturers.
A lack of manufacturing "is how we got here in the first place," said Tonelson, referring to the recession.
"The country isn't going to import its way out, spend its way out or borrow its way out," he added."It's got to produce its way out."
Although some U.S. trading partners reacted strongly against the original 'buy American' rule - especially Canada and Brazil, the latter of which threatened a lawsuit - Tonelson sees little downside to more government support.
Many of our trading partners, he said, already have their own protectionist measures in place, whether they are explicit or hidden in the form of government bureaucracies that favor their own firms.
"[U.S. manufacturers] are already shut out of many procurement contracts," he said. "How much more harm could these provisions do?""
I want first world restored. I've been to Juarez.
Either teach them a new trade or let them learn to live on a realistic wage. The Skilled trades were hurting for people up until the subprime crash. The UAW did not do those high school dropouts a favor by bringing them up to an upper middle class income. They just made the fall harder to accept. You should know what happens when industry goes away. People used to big bucks have a hard time adjusting to a realistic wage. There is no way the auto industry should have EVER paid unskilled labor the wages they paid. It was a monopoly for the Big 3 and especially GM. Until the 1970s when people started realizing they could get more for their money from Japan.
My wife's nephew finally gave up on his beloved Ohio and let his home go back. He has a good Civil Service job here in San Diego waiting for him. The only reason he left his job here was to go home to momma and the stupid Buckeyes. How lame is that?
There are jobs. You just have to get out of the depressed areas to find them.
My pastor was asking me last night how he could get out of an investment that has depleted his retirement savings by 50%. He invested with someone in his congregation. I tell anyone trying to sell anything to other people in the church that it is not acceptable. Churches are full of con artists, sadly.
Isn't it amazing that over the past few years in these forums, this is the most common comment from scores of people. We all get it, but GM doesn't? The same management that made $5.5M last year? I say we all split the $5.5M for ourselves and we can form a committee to restructure GM into two divisions! :P
GM - $1.45
Ford - $1.76
Did someone say Chapter 11?
They set up shop right outside afterwards, you know.
They probably listened and some managers agreed. But it's a bit like trying to steer the Exxon Valdez away from Bligh Reef a mile away.
I think the public has gotten over the bankruptcy shock talk and would continue to buy GM if they did go Chapter 11 and shrunk down. Especially if the feds weighed in with some of the debtor-in-possession financing or guarantees.
400,000 jobs are at risk in Germany if GM goes under there. The link's not real clear, but I'm assuming that number includes "ripple" job losses. GM's Opel: "Insolvency" Could Be An Option, German Official Says
You're consistant
Money can't buy happiness. You have to convert it to toys to bring happiness.
I'm still waiting on a bargan on CTS's
If it's any consolation, you could have a lot of fun buying old, classic Caddies and Buicks!
In all fairness, if Jesus was here His 401K would be down by 50% too. Unless of course He used some divine intervention. I don't see that we need to be Christian bashing here. Yes the Church is full of scroundels. We invite them all the time hoping to change them.
One of the worst mistakes an investor can make is jumping out of the market in a down turn, losing his investment and then not being in the market when it returns. Too many people have lost everything like that. Not saying he invested well but if he's in a good plan, he just needs to weather the storm.
"Buy and hold" is ok if you have a 50-year horizon.
Here's a better way to stimulate the economy: all these billions and billions of bailout money, send everyone (some 300 million people) an equal share and I bet you, this will definitely stimulate the economy.
Well as I see it that's already been tried, last year when most people got a $600 check. It delayed the economy's collapse a few months. If the check was $5,000 it would have delayed the collapse another year or so.
If you want to know why we're here consider that our economy was based on real estate and investments continuing to rise 10%/year and this paid for all the spending. This has been going on for 10-20 years. And now we find out that these companies and the real estate really aren't worth what we've been told, yet we've spent all this money. So it's a HUGE problem. Add to that that the country got poorer and poorer each year because of trade imbalances - the money we thought we had to spend, went overseas a lot of times, and you have an even LARGER problem.
So printing $ to give to people to spend, or vouchers for cars is not going to fix years of false wealth that is collapsing.
People are losing more in the value of their houses and 401K's in a WEEK, then the government has pumped into the banks and stimulus packages combined. Figure 100 million Americans have lost an average of $50,000 (that may be low) in their houses and investments in the last year. That's $5,000 Billion = $5T
Now figure that's similar in Europe and around the world many others have lost. Now you can figure why we're entering a depression.
Any check the government sends me is not going to come close to making up my modest middle income losses. The new stimulus plan has added $10.25 to my weekly take-home. I have no incentive to go spend $20K - $30K for a new vehicle when my company just laid off people, and if things get worse they will do so again.
GM should hire a marketing firm for one last thing. They should announce that for the good of the economy, and the U.S. taxpayer that they are declaring bankruptcy, and slashing operations except for their best products. They should add that in doing so they will encourage their prior customers to go to Chrysler or Ford, and buy their vehicles so that they will have enough sales to be profitable and survive the economy of the next few years.
Something like that might buy GM enough goodwill with the U.S. public that GM would be looked upon favorably, and with its best products (20% of what they have now and a few good future vehicles), and free of pensioners, UAW, and many dealers, they can make a go of having some sort of operation.
But can GM survive just selling the Malibu, Cruze, CTS, Traverse, and Corvette?
Actually, come to think of it, maybe they CAN survive if they shrink that much...lots of car manufacturers out there surviving on 5 models or fewer.
That was my exact advice. This is not a bad person. It is the fact that he did not want to hurt his feelings when he was not investing as he felt would be best. He tried get out at the beginning of 2008 and was told to hang in there. When it is someone in your church that you care about you are less apt to just tell them how you want things done. Nothing against the church. I just don't believe it is the place to conduct business.
Unless you are selling GM cars. Then anything goes
I believe the Silverado is still their biggest seller as is the F series Ford.
The only Cher(r)y Buick I'd drive is my '65 Wildcat, which will be cherry when I spend the $25 or $35 grand that I WOULD have spent on a new car if Buick is sold to the Chinese.
That's scary because that is NOT their best vehicle.