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BMW 335d 2009+

shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
Well, it finally looks like it's going to happen, BMW is finally bringing some of their wonderful diesel engined cars to the U.S.A. (the 335d being one of the first). Personally, I can't wait. ;)

http://bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Uniquely/FutureTechnologies/EfficientDynamics- /AdvancedDiesel.aspx

Thoughts?

Best Regards,
Shipo
«1345678

Comments

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 12,522
    I think I mentioned that I drove a 535d last fall. It's a great engine- it almost made me forgive the looks of the E60... :P
    I'm looking forward to testing the 335d.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Yeah, I think I remember you saying something to that effect. ;-)

    Now, five model years into the E60, I'm still not at all sold on its looks, and even a 3.5 liter diesel under the hood can only dull the looks so much. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    The 335d offers 328i performance at a 5-series price. All to get an extra 2 MPG?

    Plus the 328i weighs less and has a much higher rev limit (sportier and more fun to drive). I don't get it - am I missing something?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from, however, I expect the 335d to price out at a very similar price to the 335i. I also expect the 335d to easily out perform a 328i between say 20 and 120 mph, all while getting some eight to ten more miles out of each gallon of fuel.

    Needless to say it's all mere speculation until the rubber actually hits the pavement here in the States. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I'm in agreement with you. I would expect at least 40 mpg on the highway. Idling in traffic a diesel sips fuel compared to a gas engine. I read some article at some point on gas vs diesel, and while I don't exactly remember the numbers, I seem to recall a gas engine idling for an hour uses a gallon of gas, a diesel will use 1/4 gallon.

    I would also expect the diesel to be heavier due to added weight of engine and associated components and additional pollution "stuff".

    Now hopefully it will come in an xi version. :tongue
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Regarding the idling process. Gasoline engines run "rich", especially at idle, and that means an air/fuel ratio of about 14,0:1. Modern diesel engines on the other hand run "lean", no, as you were. Modern diesel engines run very "lean". I came across a paper in the S.A.E. archives a few weeks ago that was discussing this very aspect of Dr. Diesel's latest incarnation, and was delighted to learn that traditionally, diesel engines would idle with an air/fuel ratio of about 60:1, however, recent injector advances have been able to make that ratio seem positively wasteful as new engines typically idle at 100:1! Yikes, talk about lean. Yeesh. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I went to the BMW UK website and got specs for the 335d and compared them to specs for the 325i and 330i (I split the difference between them for acceleration and MPG).

    325i SE/330i SE - 39.8/39.2 MPG (imperial); 0-62 in 6.7/6.1 secs
    Average (328i) - 39.5 MPG (32.9 MPG US); 0-62 in 6.4 secs

    335d SE - 42.2 MPG (35.1 MPG US); 0-62 in 6.2 secs

    335d SE - £33,610
    335i SE - £31,550

    So according to the BMW UK website, compared to the 328i, the 335d is 0.2 seconds quicker to 62 MPH and gets 2.2 MPG better economy. The 335d is also £2,000 more expensive than the 335i. Oh yeah, the 335d weighs 300 lbs more than the 328i.

    Sure, the low-end torque and mid-range grunt is a plus, but it's at the expense of a free-revving, high RPM gas engine that, in my opinion, is what makes a BMW so much fun to drive.

    Unless my facts are wrong (and I admit we don't know how much it will cost here), it looks like the 335d is an overweight, overpriced pig.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 12,522
    Car and Driver tested a 330d and knocked off a six second 0-60 time. They predict that the 335d will do 0-60 in the mid-fives. Also remember that there are 428 pound-feet of torque available from 1750 to 2250 rpm. And I'll bet most folks will average 30-35 mpg overall. While the new diesels aren't the high rpm thoroughbreds you and I prefer, I think an oil burner may just find its way into my garage.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Sorry, the numbers I got off the UK website say otherwise.

    And for an apples to apples reference, this from the BMW UK website:

    330d SE - £30,285; 46.3 MPG (38.5 MPG US); 0-62 MPH in 6.7 secs
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,664
    Here is what I found

    Here are the stats oil burner aspiring pistonheads want to know. The 3.0-liter inline six cylinder twin-turbo diesel engine develops 265 hp and, get this, 425 lb.-ft. of torque. That's enough to sling the big [non-permissible content removed] X5 xDrive 35d from 0-62 mph in 7.2 seconds, and power the 335d from 0-62 mph in a respectable 6.2 seconds. Of course, the sprint time doesn't reflect the ENORMOUS in-gear shove. Perhaps more saliently, the diesel X5 gets 19/25 mpg, while the 335d clocks in at 23/33 mpg.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I assume those are US EPA economy estimates - which are better for comparing apples to apples vs. the 328. The numbers you found show a 5 MPG improvement compared to the 328i. That's pretty good, but not enough to get excited about, IMO.

    Your numbers do confirm that the 335d is only .2 or .3 secs quicker from 0-60 MPH than the 328i.

    Price wise, who knows? In the UK, the 335d is quite a bit more expensive than the 335i - and about the same price as a 530i SE or 525i M Sport.

    I suppose for the American torque-loving public, a lower revving engine with enormous grunt has some appeal. I imagine the thrill of punching it from a stop and feeling the thrust, but then as the tach needle hits 4000 RPM - which is when things just start getting interesting - I run out of revs and have to upshift. I grew up driving high revving I-4's (and still do), so I know I'm biased. I love to run through the gears to keep an engine on the boil above 4000 RPM, so a stump puller with a 4500 RPM redline just isn't my cup of tea.

    I'm guessing the 335d will cost about $8,000 more than the 328i - and I'd choose the 328i even if they cost the same.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,664
    Since I lease, I'll look at the 335d, 335i or 135 in Q3. I love the torque and know it is a different experience but appreciate the revs as well. In th U.S. cars I've driven, the torque was the key at lower revs with the V-8. The small blocks were where the balance was between rpm/torque, particularly in the higher compression engines.

    I've never driven a diesel but the N54 is a sweet engine and I'll be interested in the difference between the TT NA vs. TT diesel. The urea thing is a question mark for me but since it will be in the maintenance plan, worry is mitigated to some extent.

    If the d costs the same as the 335, that will eliminate some of the advantage in efficiency and most of the torque advantage for me. The tt's have their Achilles heel with the oil cooler thing if you track the car but who would track a diesel!?

    The advantage should be efficiency so I was a little surprised the MPG wasn't more than 23/33. I was hoping more like 25/38.

    Regards,
    OW
  • idoc2idoc2 Posts: 78
    In the UK gasoline is I believe above $8/imp gal. I don't know what the price of diesel is, but I suspect that unless it is substantially more than gasoline then even a small improvement in fuel efficiency may be attractive.

    The US market is obviously quite different. In New England diesel runs about $2.65/gal vs premium at $2.40/gal. At these prices unless a BMW diesel offers either a substantial performance advantage and/or substantial fuel economy advantage there is no way they can demand a substantial purchase price premium. Of course, only time will tell but I highly doubt the typical 3 series BMW customer will choose a diesel. Perhaps an X5 customer might. My guess is that unless gasoline gets well above $5/gal the market for a diesel sports sedan will be very small and BMW will end up selling these at huge discounts and/or great lease deals. Again only time will tell. ;)

    IDOC
  • Some additional info on the 328/335 discussion:

    0-60 times from BMW and achieved by car&driver

    328: 6.3sec (bmw), 6.1sec (C&D)
    335: 5.4sec (bmw), 4.8sec (C&D)

    All were achieved by the sedans with a manual transmission. Clearly what you can see here is the estimates for the 335i are underrated. It remains to be seen if the 335d is more like the 328 or the 335. I'm guessing more like the 335.

    The other point to make is that a 0-60 time is essentially irrelevant unless you are at a dragstrip. Also, the 0-60 times by C&D are achieved by dropping the clutch at high rpm, a tactic that is encouraged by your BMW service department. Point is, "real world" acceleration figures, such as 5-60mph times and top gear 30-50 or 50-70 times, are much more indicative of performance, at least IMHO. And it is in this area where a diesel, with massive torque down low will shine -- especially compared to the 328i. To say the 335d gives "328 performance at 5-series price" on the basis of a single statistic is a simplification.

    With regards to price, also remember that the UK figures you quoted are for a 335i with a manual and a 335d with an automatic (sadly, the only way it comes). To compare "apples to apples" as fedman is so interested in, you'd need to compare the 335i with an auto, at which point you see that the 2000 eng. pound difference in prices shrinks to 465 pounds -- a big drop.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,664
    At the end of the day, the 335i would then be a screaming bargain for a performance oriented purchase given price parity.

    Conclusion: Skip the diesel...go either the 328 for economy or 335i for high performance.

    Regards,
    OW
  • nkeennkeen SE PennaPosts: 313
    The UK press, especially Car magazine, tends to be pro-diesel. From my experience driving lesser turbo diesels such as the Renault Clio, I'd venture that the diesel BMWs might offer a great, but different driving experience. I think highlandpete has commented on that difference. I doubt that the 335d would give that immediate, satisfying off the line shove that a big pushrod American V8 with automatic delivers, but these diesels make for great two lane cruising at moderate speeds along with effortless passing with a manual trans, due to the bags of low end torque. You can argue that torque doesn't matter with a manual transmission because of the pleasure of rowing the gears, but try that all day under European conditions -- there are reasons beyond economy that diesels are liked over there. I haven't liked the automatics I've driven with diesels due to the lack of punch off the line (e.g., older Mercedes).

    But I haven't driven the 335d.;)
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,664
    I would pass on the 335d economy for 10-15% gain over the 335i if the price is higher. 300/300 is good for me at an average of 22 mpg with the driving I do. If it's price parity, perhaps but not at additional cost.

    Regards,
    OW
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,694
    diesels in Europe several times over the past six years or so and have grown to really like them. The first three were 1.9 litre Tdi's in Audi A3 or A4's & a Passat. After that I enjoyed an A4 on a vacation & a few Peugots in England on business trips. All delivered over 40 mpg (US gallons) & provided nice acceleration. The Audis showed me what a properly-handling vehicle with a diesel was all about, and I would have bought one in a heartbeat back here after returning home, if it were possible. It wasn't then (2001) and it isn't now.

    I don't want to wave my (let's say ego) in the air with the biggest, baddest diesel (or gas motor, for that matter) that there is. I just want a 2 or 2.5 litre diesel in a vehicle designed for good handling. The BMW 2 or 2.5 or the Audi equivalent would suit me just fine. It doesn't look like it's going to be available for the next couple of years however, if ever.

    Honda (Acura) is bringing their 2.2 litre diesel to the U.S. for the TSX & one of their SUV's either this year or next. I'm following that closely, as it more nearly meets my desires than the big BMW motor. Plus which, I'm not sure how long it'll take for the whole diesel thing to settle down at the BMW (& possibly Audi) dealers.

    I may end up driving a new gas engine car for a couple or three years while it all settles out, but I'm very much predisposed to get a diesel in a premium brand, if I can do it without worrying about getting to 60 in under 6 (or 5) seconds.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Now that's logic I can agree with.

    The TSX diesel will probably weigh 400-500 lbs less than the 335d. 40 MPG from a peppy 2.2L diesel makes a lot of sense.
  • nkeennkeen SE PennaPosts: 313
    re TSX -- will it be available with a manual trans?
  • nkeennkeen SE PennaPosts: 313
    re TSX -- will it be available with a manual trans? Auto only is the downside of the 335d.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,694
    Don't know yet, but sincerely hope so -- without a manual, I won't buy it. However, since the Tsx is the European (& Australian?) Accord, I would imagine the diesel with a manual is the standard (sorry) setup. I guess we'll find out in the next few months.

    It may be available later this year, or possibly not until next. I've heard both versions, but nothing definitive yet.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • bhill2bhill2 Posts: 2,074
    Aw geez, are you telling me that BMW is actually now planning to sell a 3 Series without an available manual? In the words of Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles, "now I am depressed."

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • nkeennkeen SE PennaPosts: 313
    Yep, I think the 330d is the top of the range for manual diesels in the UK, perhaps other European countries also.
  • Anyone here that's been to/lives in Europe (perhaps a BMW employee or mechanic) know what the mechanical difference is between the 330d and 335d?

    I ask because there was little difference between the 325 and 330 when sold in the US except engine software, intake and exhaust. So technically, for the tuner it was cheaper to buy the 325 and buy a 330's ECU as an instant plug-in upgrade.

    And since the 330d and 335d are both twin-variable-vane-turbo 3.0L inline-6 diesels, would it be possible to one day do an ECU swap in the 330d manual and get the car you want for less?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "I ask because there was little difference between the 325 and 330 when sold in the US except engine software, intake and exhaust. So technically, for the tuner it was cheaper to buy the 325 and buy a 330's ECU as an instant plug-in upgrade."

    Ummm, no, not even close. There are a great many differences between the 325i and the 330i, not the least of which are the three-track intake on the 330i versus the single track intake on the 325i, the larger and more robust transmission on the 330i as well as the larger and more capable brakes on the 330i. The truth if the matter is that it is FAAAAR cheaper to buy a 330i than it is to buy a 325i and then try to upgrade it.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Discounting factors outside of the engine, all components were compatible, yes? I believe I mentioned the intake. And I'm no BMW tuner, but I'm guessing it wouldn't cost $6K to get an extra 40hp out of a 325i. One might even save the 100lbs by not cloning the 330i entirely.

    The real point to my question was if the 330d comes in manual and so far the 335d comes in auto, is there anything preventing a person from upgrading their 330d's engine to 335d level?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "And I'm no BMW tuner, but I'm guessing it wouldn't cost $6K to get an extra 40hp out of a 325i."

    Sorry, not buying. Horsepower isn't some magic thing that you can just change some software and presto-chango, more power (unless you've got an artificially aspirated engine). The fact is that unless you tear into the engine (or add a blower), you aren't going to get any kind of a meaningful bump in power, period full stop, the end. Believe it or not, any such changes will far exceed the ~$3,500 (apples-to-apples) cost difference between the two cars.

    There is an old adage, "If you want to make your BMW faster, buy a faster BMW."

    Regarding a cost effective method of upgrading of a 330d to a 335d level of power, I kind of doubt that one too. True, both engines have forced induction, however, my bet is that due to the turbocharger, induction, injector, and cooling differences (intercooler, oil cooler, and radiator), the cost of bumping the 330d output to 335d levels will either dramatically shorten the life-span of the engine/drivetrain and/or cost far more than simply buying a 335d in the first place.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Okay, no offense, you've been polite enough but that old addage is more like an old wive's tale. Its a purist convention, but it has no real factual meaning.

    Case and point: if you want a fast BMW, buy a 135i, slap on a Vishnu kit or whatever is available, and run with the M-class. Sorry, but it won't be long the cheapest BMW coupe can be made to perform similarly (not identical) to the most expensive without much investment.

    I have it on good authority that the ECU and intake swap can be done on a 325i/330i, and is successful in making up the power difference. They are otherwise almost the exact same engine, and swapping parts does create bolt-on power. I however do not know how much that would cost, so I won't argue the bang/buck further.

    I may not be a BMW tuner, but I've put a wrench to just about everything else. On almost any NA engine, 40bhp is child's play without having to crack open the engine. Ideal intake/exhaust + ECU tune will get you there on a lot of applications. On boosted engines the difference can be even more with those same mods (100+bhp). Its not magic, its engineering. 100bhp bump for the 335i is just a start. BMW doesn't just slap an engine together and it gets what it gets. They PICK a power level they want it to have, and PROGRAM it to operate within that range. Aftermarket engineers and tuners have a lot of room to work with.

    So knowing that BMW has in the past used the same engine but with slightly different power levels, I was asking what the real mechanical difference is between 330d and 335d. I did a little homework and I think I answered my own question. The 325d and 330d use single-turbo setups and 335d is dual-turbo. I have my answer, and no they are not compatible with the 335d.

    Thank you for the commentary.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    On almost any NA engine, 40bhp is child's play without having to crack open the engine

    Yeah but the 5 or 6 grand to get you there is more expensive than buying an upgraded model. There is no way you can get 40 hp out of a na engine, in the 3 liter range, imo, without some serious modifications to the intake, flow, exhaust, ECU and I don't know what else. I might add...on the cheap. If it were in fact that easy, the manufacturers wouldn't "leave" that much hp on the table for the taking.

    Granted it's much easier with forced induction, but that's another topic.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "I have it on good authority that the ECU and intake swap can be done on a 325i/330i, and is successful in making up the power difference. They are otherwise almost the exact same engine, and swapping parts does create bolt-on power. I however do not know how much that would cost, so I won't argue the bang/buck further."

    Hmmm, I'm not sure whose authority. I just took a peak over on the Dinan (a master BMW tuner if there ever was one) web site and found the following goodies available for the E90 325i:

    1) Ram Air Intake Assembly, 7 HP, 6 lb-ft, $399 (plus labor)
    2) High Flow Throttle Body, 5 HP, 4 lb-ft, $399 (plus labor)
    3) Free Flow Exhaust, 6 HP, 5 lb-ft, $1,499 (plus labor)

    Why no tuning software? Dinan released a statement a few years ago that said basically that BMW has done such a good job with their engine management software that there just aren't any more gains to be had (except for a slightly higher RPM and the removal of programmed top speeds, neither of which add power). So, for $2,297 you can bolt on 18 HP and 15 lb-ft of torque. I'm thinking that a 330i would still stomp the 325i into the dirt. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo

    Edit: Ahhh, I found the link to the Dinan statement: http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info/dispelling-performance-software-myths- - -
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Is that similiarity to War and Peace really a statement?
  • While this is neither here nor there since I answered my own question, I still have to laugh at this. No offense to 325i/328i/330i owners. I wouldn't call it fast, but its a very luxurious, sporty car.

    Stomp into the dirt! Are you serious!!! 40bhp more? Thats so little power increase I'm not sure I'd notice it! In fact, I've done (dyno-proven) mods of about that power level to other cars and couldn't really tell the difference before and after.

    You also forgot to read on. Dinan also said in the same breath:

    I’ve had customers tell me that there
    is no point in tuning a new BMW because there is no power to be gained due to
    the fact that the cars are tuned so well from the factory. Fortunately for
    enthusiasts, this has not been our experience at all.


    What Dinan goes on to say in that entire testimonial would only reinforce what I already know. Those aftermarket parts you listed above would only be half the job. That 18hp? Thats just from freeing up more air into a system that's not prepared for it. Now buy the Dinan software and that will adjust air/fuel ratios and timing so that fuel supply meets demand. In fact, it would probably double the 18 you calculated. Heyyyy... that's pretty close to 40hp isn't it?

    And while that might end up costing more than your cieling $3,500 or whatever, from the very beginning I was suggesting that someone cheated the system by just SWAPPING parts + tune of the 325i/330i. These guys scavenge junkyards for 330i's that were in fender-benders and then pay the yard next to nothing. Next to nothing = CHEAPER!!!
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "Stomp into the dirt! Are you serious!!! 40bhp more? Thats so little power increase I'm not sure I'd notice it!"

    Yes, I'm completely serious. While on paper the difference may not be all that great, drive them back-to-back and there'll be no doubt which one has more torque and accelerates faster, the difference isn't even close.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Now buy the Dinan software and that will adjust air/fuel ratios and timing so that fuel supply meets demand. In fact, it would probably double the 18 you calculated. Heyyyy...

    Or not. From your posts I do not believe one can really scour junk yards and for the cheap end up with 40 hp more. Or maybe one can do it, but seriously compromise the integrity of the engine.
  • Yes, I'm completely serious. While on paper the difference may not be all that great, drive them back-to-back and there'll be no doubt which one has more torque and accelerates faster, the difference isn't even close.

    The 325i/328i/330i all 0-60 in about 6.0-7.5 seconds, 1/4-mile in about 15.0-16.0 seconds. Even if one does slightly better in that range that's still nothing to write home about in terms of straight-line acceleration. They 330i doesn't really cross a threshold into 'blistering' performance over the 325i. The 335i, however, does!

    Or not. From your posts I do not believe one can really scour junk yards and for the cheap end up with 40 hp more. Or maybe one can do it, but seriously compromise the integrity of the engine.

    Actually that's the generally accepted formula. Dinan is saying that mods alone does little, software alone does little. Mods + software compliment each other very well. Many tuners know this. Dinan is trying to make a sale there, remember. They aren't knocking the idea of tuning, they just don't want you to go halfway and complain that you aren't seeing much improvement. They want you to spring for the whole package.

    And while I can appreciate your concern for the used car parts, it is a little naive. That is the purpose to 'salvage yards'. 'Junk yards' is a bit of a misnomer. Any time an in-demand car gets written off by someone talking on their cell phone, the salvage yard strips it of parts that are still useful.

    Ever been to a body shop for a broken tail lamp? Or need a new front bumper? And you think that the garage you are working with through your insurance always orders a new part from the factory? Oh they might charge you for a new part, but they are getting it used. If you are getting a tail lamp replaced, its from a written-off car with front-end damage. If you're getting a new front bumper, it was from a car that got rear-ended to death.

    Even engine parts are recycled. All good auto/body shops know several good salvage yards. It doesn't compromise any integrity. Its the same part. They check it. Its similar to swapping SIM cards in cell phones. It does NOT compromise the integrity of the new phone.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "Actually that's the generally accepted formula. Dinan is saying that mods alone does little, software alone does little. Mods + software compliment each other very well. Many tuners know this. Dinan is trying to make a sale there, remember. They aren't knocking the idea of tuning, they just don't want you to go halfway and complain that you aren't seeing much improvement. They want you to spring for the whole package."

    Ummm, that used to be a generally accepted formula, not anymore. The truth of the matter is that if you can fit more air into your engine, and/or scavenge the cylinders a bit better, the software in late model BMWs will do as well as any aftermarket tuner package at delivering additional power. If you know different, please post a link to an ECU upgrade that claims meaningful boosts in output, I'd be very interested in looking at what they have to offer.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,664
    Bang for the $4,400 on E46...

    link title

    310 bhp/266 lb.-ft. and a 2 year warranty.

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Thanks for the link. ;-)

    FWIW, I hate superchargers. Why? Because of the huge losses they create. Off the top of my head, I'd bet that that supercharger draws an easy sixty to seventy horsepower at full boil, and that means that to generate 310 hp to the transmission, your engine will need to generate at least 370 hp. Not a recipe for a long engine life. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,664
    Just 'cause they make it doesn't mean I would ever buy it. Never liked tuning unless full track dedication. Then, you need to do it right from the crank up and can expect frequent repairs none the less! Fact of performance on the edge. A bolt on SC is for fools. But they still can sell it to the ego-centric tuner fanatics.

    The 335 will do just fine for me, thank you very much.

    Regards,
    OW
  • Ummm, that used to be a generally accepted formula, not anymore. The truth of the matter is that if you can fit more air into your engine, and/or scavenge the cylinders a bit better, the software in late model BMWs will do as well as any aftermarket tuner package at delivering additional power. If you know different, please post a link to an ECU upgrade that claims meaningful boosts in output, I'd be very interested in looking at what they have to offer

    I don't have to look any further than Dinan, which is what you were trying to use to throw me off. BMW is tuned very specifically out of the factory, and has less ability to adjust to changing stimuli from added airflow. No, the formula is more true than ever with Bimmers. Even using natural aspiration.

    Dinan:
    We’ve talked a bit about software tuning, along with some extra air-flow from less
    restrictive filters. A logical question, then would be what about specific software
    tuning for other modifications that might be applied to the cars. Modern BMW
    engines are so sensitive to accurate tuning and setting faults that in almost every
    case a specific version of software designed for use with an engine modification
    will result in not only greater power gains but reduced potential for malfunctions
    as well. The more extensive the modifications, the more important specific
    software for those modifications becomes.


    True superchargers are quick-fixes, but I agree they have some drawbacks. Honestly, the 325i and 330i are pretty limited in what they can do in a straight line. That doesn't mean you can't get 40hp one way or the other. Thats pretty easy. But it would take something like a supercharger to actually get them to cross that threshold into the realm of 'fast'.

    I agree with circlew that the 335i is a better starting point, but I couldn't resist the cheap fun of tuning it with this:

    Vishnu

    +75whp
    +114wtq

    From only an airflow improvement and ECU tune. And it costs $1,300. Will that be cash or charge?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    That doesn't mean you can't get 40hp one way or the other

    I can't find a link that will claim the 3L E46 engine can be boosted to 265 without forced air induction for a reasonable price. I agree one can do anything for an amount of money, but any amount of money is not where the conversation has been.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Sorry, not buying. Please, post a link for ANY engine tuner that believes that they have software that can boost a normally aspirated 2006 325i to near 2006 330i levels. Personally I don't believe that it can be done without significant modifications to the actual engine.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • I can't find a link that will claim the 3L E46 engine can be boosted to 265 without forced air induction for a reasonable price. I agree one can do anything for an amount of money, but any amount of money is not where the conversation has been.

    The E46 is a platform, not an engine. What engine are you specifically talking about? The E46 M3 had 265hp stock, natural aspiration.

    Sorry, not buying. Please, post a link for ANY engine tuner that believes that they have software that can boost a normally aspirated 2006 325i to near 2006 330i levels. Personally I don't believe that it can be done without significant modifications to the actual engine.

    As requested.

    It's going to cost you under $5k to get your 325i up to 330i territory, so you can really enjoy owning one of BMW's finest sports sedans.

    Enjoy:
    TMS

    Some people are predetermined to think that the BMW models are perfect coming out of the factory, and that they would never give us less than the full potential. I think that is denial. Its 99.9% the same car.

    That Vishnu kit, for example, demonstrates how BMW can be one of the most cost-effective and simple tuner vehicles ever made. Even hardcore tuners are amazed at a 75whp increase for less than $1500. With no detriments! Thats practically a record. It shows how overengineered the 335i is, and how much extra punishment it can take.

    Thats actually why I came here asking about the diesels. I'm really excited to see if Vishnu makes a kit that helps the 335d gain get between 500-600tq. And if anyone wants to get into how much easier it is to tune diesels, I've got loads to say on that too. But I'll sum it up with this: ITS VERY EASY!
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 12,522
    Sorry, not buying. Please, post a link for ANY engine tuner that believes that they have software that can boost a normally aspirated 2006 325i to near 2006 330i levels. Personally I don't believe that it can be done without significant modifications to the actual engine.

    I agree; the good old days of picking up 20-40 NA horsepower by swapping EPROMS are long gone. The big numbers are coming from the tuners who are tweaking the turbo gas and diesel cars.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • I agree; the good old days of picking up 20-40 NA horsepower by swapping EPROMS are long gone. The big numbers are coming from the tuners who are tweaking the turbo gas and diesel cars.

    No, no, and yes.

    No, 20-40hp is not big numbers.

    No, those days are not long gone if you are talking 325i.

    TMS:
    This is an extra 50hp from the 325i - that's almost a 20% improvement! Driving a 265hp car with a thus-altered personality will make the decision to upgrade a no-brainer.


    Yes, the big, easy gains come from forced-induction. Like 100+hp.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The E46 is a platform, not an engine. What engine are you specifically talking about? The E46 M3 had 265hp stock, natural aspiration

    There is only one engine I could be talking about. The M3 has the 3.2L engine, which I was not referring to. The 325 E46 has a 2.5L engine to which I am not referring to.
  • I can't find a link that will claim the 3L E46 engine can be boosted to 265 without forced air induction for a reasonable price. I agree one can do anything for an amount of money, but any amount of money is not where the conversation has been.

    There is only one engine I could be talking about. The M3 has the 3.2L engine, which I was not referring to. The 325 E46 has a 2.5L engine to which I am not referring to.


    Sorry, bad comprehension skills.

    Try this:
    Turner

    The DynoJet Graph is measured in WHP. I don't know what the typical drivetrail loss is for 330i's but the industry standard is 20%. So 250bhp - 20% = 200whp. So if they can deliver, this chip is offering up to 250bhp with no other mods. I don't see it offered in a bundle, so maybe you could call and ask if the high-flow air filter or mufflers would compliment it well and contribute further to your goal of 265bhp. For $369.00, you'd be halfway there. Not too shabby.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Turner's "Stage 3 Upgrade" for the E90 325i does appear (if you trust a vendor dyno) to bring up 325i performance to 330i levels.

    The upgrade costs $4000 and consists of a re-flash (a 18hp increase by itself), new intake manifold, and high flow cats. Most buyers in this segment won't be doing the installation themselves, so add another $700 for installation.

    On the other hand, when new, a base 330i was about $5000 more than a base 325i - and included larger wheels and brakes, adaptive xenon headlights, power seats with memory settings, reverse-tilt mirror, and the upgraded audio system.

    Sure, you could spend $5000 and add 50hp to an NA BMW, but why bother? The 330i was a better value.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    A stock 330 engine is 225 or 180whp. So for about $5000 (dinan + shark) or so you could maybe add 38 hp, if you trust the vendors figures. THe ECU adds maybe 20 hp, of which is probably bumping up the rev limiter which has an effect on engine longevity.
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