BMW 335d 2009+

nopcbs

No kidding. Was on a European river boat cruise last week. Viking MS Danube. Toured the engine room on the Dutch-built boat. Five Diesels: four Cats (two 100+ horse for propulsion and two others for generators) and a small John Deere (the last for power at dock).

peachtree103

GM should have a small V8 Diesel in the Tahoe next year. There's a pic of Ford's new Diesel F-150 on inside line news today, with the same engine going into the Expedition.

I too would like to see an even small diesel in a mid-sized SUV. Perhaps the V6 they (GM) are designing for the CTS will make it over.

gagrice

Our local BMW dealer called yesterday. He wanted to know if I was still looking for a vehicle. I told him the X5 diesel was what I was interested in. He had some great deals on the gas X5. Told him I was not interested. They are pushing .9% interest for anyone looking. He did say he test drove both the 335D and the X5 diesel. He was very impressed. Said they are worth the wait. He said they were told they would be in San Diego by late December or early January. No pressure to get my order in.

cctdi

I bought 335xi and 535xi this year, both of them got the same sweet diesel like low rpm torque and the high hp twin turbo inline six( to me, the TT inline six is so much better housed in the 5er than the 3er ). In these past 4 years, I got the 05 inline 6 E320 CDI, 04 Passat wagon and Touareg TDI, 05 Passat sedan TDI, lastly the 07 Touareg V10 TDI, and for all the diesel engines driving experiences, I do wish one thing- if the V10 TDI would be on the bay, say, in the 5er, and naturedly the next best thing is the TT inline 6 diesel would get into the 5er, I surely will get one; I just don’t like the bumpy ride and the sloped driver side leg room floor of the 3er.
If the 2.L Passat TDI easily gets 40 mpg in average, and the 4.9L V10 with 6 tons body on it gets above 20 mpg just like the 335xi gets, why there won’t be a market for the right diesel engines in the right cars? But if Bimmer puts only in 3er and X5 with such nice diesel engine, I will be very happy and satisfied with back seats fall flat 535xi for summer and winter. Still, I feel stressful by comparing the $3.78 of the regular verse $4.52 for the diesel in my area local gas stations here in South Jersey.

gagrice

Will BMW sell the 335D Wagon in the USA? That is a decent looking car in my eyes.

gagrice

Looking at the specs for the 335d Touring in the UK, it is rated 52.3 MPG. That should convert to 43.55 MPG US. That is pretty decent mileage for a 3800 lb station wagon.

By comparison the Honda Accord Tourer sold in the UK with a 4 cylinder diesel gets 47 MPG US. By American standards it would be considered sluggish at 0-62 in 9.8 seconds. The 335d Touring is rated 6.3 seconds 0-62 MPH.

I would give up the 4 MPG for the added performance and superior handling of the BMW. That and the BMW will be here this year. No telling when Honda will bring their diesel.

nopcbs

You are giving up more than the mileage. I would bet the Honda is much less expensive than the BMW. Honda has a couple of diesel engines coming. You can bet they will be excellent designs.

Now, as to European diesel ratings...you have to keep in mind that European emission standards for diesels are quite lax vs. US EPA standards. There is added plumbing the engine has to deal with and US models will not get as good mileage as the European version of the same car will get with the same engine/transmission. So the Eueopean numbers are optimistic vs. what we will get here. How optimistic? We will see.

I am going to test drive a 335d later this month and am looking forward to it.

- Geo

gagrice

So the Eueopean numbers are optimistic vs. what we will get here.

I would agree. However the cross country matchup between the ML320 CDI and the RX400h had the Mercedes at 31 MPG on the highway and 25.6 MPG for the entire 3200 miles. That compared to the EPA rating of 21 MPG combined. The 2 drivers reporting their mileage on the 2008 ML320 CDI averaged 25.4 MPG. I think that is pretty consistent with the cross country trial. Making the UK mileage estimates closer to reality.

For comparison, the 2008 RX400h owners get the 25 MPG EPA estimate.

mariobgoode

I'm looking to replace my '06 330xi with the 335D sedan, mainly due to the RFT's which is really annoying. The lower cost of diesel (or longer range) also helped.

I hope Gagrice is correct that it will be here in January 09. I'll check with my dealer and give you guys a feedback. Maybe interested in the wagon if my '09 VW TDI sportswagen isn't in by then. The Vdub is very spartan in options.

fedlawman

The diesel doesn't come with run-flat tires? That's news to me.

I still say the 328i is the better choice.

I think getting an additional 6 or 7 MPG on the Highway is great, but it's not worth suffering such a low-revving engine, an automatic transmission, pushing an extra 300 lbs through corners, and paying an extra $10,000 for a car that isn't any quicker.

kyfdx

Where I live, diesel sells at a 50% premium to gas.. That might not last forever, but I also remember 4 years ago when diesel was cheaper than gas... Nobody foresaw the flip/flop of those prices, either..

rayainsw

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/entry_luxury/2009_bmw- _335d_short_take_road_test?cid=327

Mr_Shiftright

Holy crap! $60,000???

Let me catch my breath. :surprise:

fedlawman

Starts at $44,700.

That's $11,000 more than a 328i! What the heck are you getting for all that extra money?

And by the way, when do you think Bav Auto and KMart will start stocking urea? :confuse:

mariobgoode

I think I just lost my appetite for that diesel burner. Too much money for what looks like a mediocre performance car.

Thanks for the eye-opener, guys. Now, I have to figure out what to do with my RFT's.

nopcbs

You get a bunch more torque, no manual option, some diesel clatter, the opportunity to get ~20% better mileage (at best) for up to (and sometimes more than) 50% higher fuel cost. This is what is known as an "intellegence test" that is being presented by BMW. They are interested in finding out just how stupid some of their customers are.

fedlawman

Don't forget that thrilling 5000 RPM redline. Yaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnnn...

rayainsw

My sense is ( have not driven one, obviously ) that this car will offer ultimate acceleration somewhere between the 335 and 328, very satisfying everyday acceleration, and better fuel economy than either.

With a reduction in emissions, it seems like a reasonable offering for an additional ~$2500 – less a ~$900 tax break.

If diesel fuel does return to pricing parity ( or close ) to premium unleaded, this might well appeal to some.

“335d has 42 percent more torque” than the 335i will likely feel pretty good, for the TQ addicted among us. . [ Me, for one. ] . . though clearly not for the RPM addicted.

10 Highway MPG better than the 335i, again may appeal, if diesel prices fall substantially.
[ Edit: And adds range per tank - though apparently the tank is actually a bit smaller. ]

I did expect BMW to be somewhat more aggressive in MSRP pricing, given that they have not had a diesel in the US market for so long – and there are still not diesel pumps at every station, the refueling process is still a bit more annoying, etc.

Clearly, I am not a marketing genius.

I will follow actual diesel sales #s with interest.

And if my sales rep. insists, I will take at least a short test drive.

- Ray
We shall see . . .

nopcbs

You may be more of a marketing genius than BMW. They are so hung up on premium pricing in the U.S. that they seem to go out of their way sell only the most expensive version of anything they make here...and over-price it.

If they were marketing geniuses they would be importing the 1-Series hatchback diesels here...and not just the most powerful/least frugal ones. The mileage those generate is probably high enough to overcome the price premium you pay for diesel here.

It is interesting that MB can sell their E-class diesel at a $1,000 price premium in the U.S. but BMW chooses to gouge.

cdnpinhead

You are (as Ed McMahon used to say) correct, sir.

BMW has seen fit to send only the most larded-up versions of their excellent vehicles to the U.S.

It's worked for them so far, even though it's left me (and apparently you) less than pleased. Let's hide and watch what happens over the next five years.

I'm expecting an interesting show. I bought an appliance vehicle back in March that will serve me well and sell for a good price if Europe and their NA marketing gurus ever decide to send 1.9-2.0 litre diesels to the U.S. I don't mind if it's BMW, Audi or MB, but if a small-displacement turbodiesel with a manual gearbox is made available over here, I'll give it a very careful look.

chadx

"Where I live, diesel sells at a 50% premium to gas.."

Is that compared to regular unleaded or premium unleaded?

Keep in mind the BMWs, and many other vehicles, run premium, so when you compare fuels costs, you have to compare between diesel and premium and not deisel and regular unleaded.

gagrice

In San Diego the diesel price is 18% over Premium Unleaded. It looks like the X5 diesel will get about 35% better mileage out on the highway. Talked to the dealer last week. He says it looks like January now before they get the 335D and the X5 D.

blueguydotcom

Yeah, small premium right now and in a year or two when gas climbs again, diesel will be an even better deal.

Just mad BMW isn't bringing the 2.0 diesel here instead of this giant engine.

gagrice

So far it looks like VW is only one able to get their small diesel past the thugs at the EPA and CARB. I would love to see a small diesel car from BMW. A Mini with a 1.6L diesel would be swell in my book.

blueguydotcom

I don't think it's an EPA/Carb issue - that's an excuse from manus not to try things.

BMW won't sell the 2.0 here as a BMW because they have this idiotic notion Americans expect only 6 cylinders and up from BMW cars.

A 1 series with a turbo 4 would be a delight (and far lighter than the inline 6).

nopcbs

Not true. In my state, Michigan, Diesel has been $1 more than regular throughout the year. You do the math. At $4, it was a 25% premium.

Any BMW gas car will run fine on regular. You lose a little power, but nothing serious. Knock sensor keeps engine safe. Throw in some Techron a couple of times a year to compensate for the lower detergent level.

This appears to be a local issue as to whether a diesel makes sense or not. In MI it makes zero sense, especially with BMW charging a premium for it.

- Geo

jpdisarro

Here in Illinois, diesel is 40% more expensive than premium, ($1.75 vs. $2.45). At the height of gas prices, diesel was approximately 20-25% more expensive.

blueguydotcom

If one is so cheap one will put regular in a 3 series, then a diesel really never was going to be an option, was it?

fedlawman

If one is so cheap one will put regular in a 3 series, then a 3 series really never was going to be an option, was it?

chadx

I'd love to see the 1.8L or 2.0L diesel here, too. Especially in the 1 series hatchback. We were amazed at the mileage on that car when we rented one in Germany (wife has family there, so yearly trips for us). 50mpg and up at speeds not legal anywhere in the U.S. (yes I did the conversions because I am that interested in such things. ha).

We will be looking for a replacement for my wife's 1999 323i in a couple years. We get a combined mileage of 29mpg with it. 80mph road trips get 30+mpg. If I drive it an easy 65mph, I can get 36+mpg. The new 328i can't touch that. Nor can the 128i (and they don't offer that in a hatchback which we'd prefer). Give me a 120d hatchback and we'll be ready to buy. Great mileage. Great looks and handling. Rear wheel drive. Perfect for us.

chadx

"Any BMW gas car will run fine on regular. You lose a little power, but nothing serious. Knock sensor keeps engine safe. Throw in some Techron a couple of times a year to compensate for the lower detergent level."

To clarify your statement, yes, any modern BMW can run on regular unleaded gas (RUG) rather than premium unleaded gas (PUG). The computer will retard the timing, etc. You will lose not only power but gas mileage. Usually enough that you burn enough extra regular unleaded to make it cost as much as if you just paid for premium and enjoyed the performance and mileage the way the engine was designed. Oh, and there is no difference in detergent level on RUG vs. PUG. The companies brag about the detergents in premium, but what they don't say is the same ones are in all grades. Adding an occasional bottle of fuel injector cleaner doesn't hurt and can help, but the difference between RUG and PUG isn't there so shouldn't play a part in that decision.

To add another comment on the difference between cars made for RUG vs. PUG...when we were shopping for cars, it was obvious that the grade of recommended gas needed to be taken into consideration when looking at EPA mileage estimates. I was curious at how much difference it made, so I calculated it out. Back when gas was $4.00 and the difference between RUG and PUG. was 20cents, the break even mpg was 2mpg. Meaning, if vehicle 01 ran RUG and got 25mpg, if vehicle 02 ran PUG, it would have to get 27mpg to have the same operating cost as vehicle 01. Of course, those numbers jump around with the price increases/decreases, mpg numbers, and also the price difference between the two.

I will comment that it was interesting to see the price difference remained only 20cents as gas climbed from $1.50/gal up to $4.50/gal, and now back down to $1.52/gal. Obviously if the 20cent spread stays consistant, the justification (and deal) for premium gets better and better.

nopcbs

Maybe not an option, but certainly a reality. I have an E46 zhp that is fed a regular diet of regular. It's been getting it for years and does not object.

What does not wasting one's hard earned money have to do with cheapness, by the way?

Just curious.

- Geo

blueguydotcom

Chad, actually the 128 and 328 will easily get in the 30+ mpg range on freeway trips. The EPA listings are wildly conservative.

blueguydotcom

You're saving a few bucks a week. That's hardly worth the aggravation of missing some top end of the ZHP's modest 235 HP.

nopcbs

I have REPEATEDLY run the test on my E46 zhp, you (meaning me in my repeated tests driving to/from work in a small town) do NOT get noticably worse mileage with regular vs. premium. It does not happen. You do get slightly worse mileage with either gas (I'd say about 5%) now that they are putting that crap ethanol in everything.

In this month's BMW car club mag, Mike Miller says the EtOH is screwing up fuel pumps in some Bimmers.

The government screwing us again...only this time it's a two-for.

Twenty cents a gallon more for premium is 20 cents a gallon more for premium no matter wthat the % different is. Burn a 1000 gallons and you will be out an extra $200 after taxes or about $300 in earned income. Not huge, but about what a nice little 19" LCD HDTV costs, for example. Me, I'd rather have the TV. In this crappy economy if you want to spend the extra 20 cents a gallon on gas, go for it. You just wont have that money to spend on anything else. Your call. Your money.

fedlawman

"I have an E46 zhp that is fed a regular diet of regular. It's been getting it for years and does not object.

What does not wasting one's hard earned money have to do with cheapness, by the way?"

I never said anything about "cheapness." It just doesn't make sense to me.

In my opinion, a couple hundred dollars is a small price to pay to enjoy all the horsepower premium fuel gives you (and your engine is designed for). I mean, if a little more performance isn't worth the extra expense, why pay the extra cost of the performance package? To use your analogy, you could buy a 42" plasma HDTV for the price of the ZHP option. Heck, choose a Subaru WRX instead of a BMW 3-series, and you could build a $10,000 home theater with the savings.

roadburner

In my opinion, a couple hundred dollars is a small price to pay to enjoy all the horsepower premium fuel gives you (and your engine is designed for). I mean, if a little more performance isn't worth the extra expense, why pay the extra cost of the performance package? To use your analogy, you could buy a 42" plasma HDTV for the price of the ZHP option. Heck, choose a Subaru WRX instead of a BMW 3-series, and you could build a $10,000 home theater with the savings.

Thank heavens I don't have to agonize over whether to use the right fuel or buy a bargain-basement LCD monitor. Hey, maybe I should buy a used Kia and build a $30,000 HTS!
:P

nkeen

Well, the owners' manual suggests 91 octane minimum, so that's what goes in my tank. And I'm very proud of the 17" RCA black and white that still graces my living room.

nkeen

Why won't BMW offer this in the States? Great Torque, a top end of 143 (faster than a US market 335i with base suspension) and 58 miles to the imperial gallon. The 2.0 4 cylinder diesel in the 123d is making over 200 horsepower now.

blueguydotcom

Because they're short-sighted. They think people will say no because it's a 4 cylinder. A turbo 4 in a 1 series or 3 series would be fantastic (and lower the weight a bunch!).

Mr_Shiftright

Americans don't much like diesel passenger cars. Even in their glory years the diesels barely made up 6% of the passenger car market, way back in the 1980s. If 4 or 5 automakers offered diesels, they'd have to carve up a very small piece of the pie among themselves. Adding multi-tier diesels to the line of cars only means they are competing for the same limited market, not adding customers.

blueguydotcom

I think the 335d is a mistake and they should have gone with the 320d. So 1 diesel, 1 that makes the 3 lighter and more responsive (something it needs desperately to be) and gives the buyer an astounding value, plus no real performance hit. The 335d is just a mistake - heavier, slower and more expensive than a 335i, it will not be a bigger flop than the Z4.

cdnpinhead

. . .they should have gone with the 320d.

Absolutely. If they had, I'd be in line to buy one, so long as it came with a manual. Change out the crap tires, and all is well. With luck, they've fixed the bogus oil level indicator by now (a manual AND a dipstick would be nirvana, but I know better now than to expect European vehicles over here).

Sadly, the only diesel automobile (as opposed to imitation trucks) BMW chose to allow in North America has an automatic and a way too large (& heavy) engine.

I may be driving Asian for much longer than I had hoped to.

bhill2

I think the 335d is a mistake and they should have gone with the 320d.

Actually, I'd like to add a different spin. If BMW wanted to introduce a diesel to the US, I think they should have wrapped a 5 series around it. The 3 series is I think viewed in the US as the "zippy, sporty" line, and I have my questions about how many people shopping that series (present company excepted) would want a diesel. I think those shopping BMW's "bread and butter" sedan would be more likely targets.

roadburner

The Brit mag Autocar just tested an F01 730d. It knocked out a 0-60 run in 6.9 seconds and the quarter mile in 15.2 @93 mph. It averaged 24 US mpg during the test. I could see buying one as my geezer-mobile in 5-10 years...

nkeen

330d 6 spd manual: 155 mph; 0-62 mph 6.1 sec; 49.6 mpg imperial combined cycle.

By the way, did anyone see the Top Gear piece about a Prius driven flat out getting lower mileage than the M3 that was tailing it? Not utterly scientific no doubt, but I think the numbers were something like 17 versus 19 imperial.

nopcbs

The acceleration times you are quoting for the 330d is what the car books are getting here for a 335d...and your mileage is better. I think US emissions gear trumps some of the mileage benefit you see in Europe...we have much stricter emissions regs here...you will get them later.

As to the Top Gear M3 vs. Prius thing...that was so bogus that makes one wonder whether Jeremy (or however you spell his name) has the sense that God gave a gnat. Think about it, they were running the Prius flat out while the M3 just following along at low revs.

Any hybrid's element is NOT running flat out, it is stop and go driving in city traffic. That's how most people drive and that's why they are wildly popular. Run Prius through city traffic vs. the M3 and the Prius would get 40+ mpg while the M3 would be lucky to get 10 mpg. Or, drive both at at 70 mph and the Prius would still get 40+ mpg while the M3 would be lucky to get mid-20's. Or drive the Prius flat out vs. the M3 flat out on your track...the Prius would still beat the M3's brains out in terms of mpg, the M3 would get under 10 mpg.

It is truly amazing that the BBC editors let Jeremy get away with this nonsense. And sportsman that he is, he concludes, "it's not what you drive, it's how you drive". What blather...the only way that M3 would ever see anything like 40-50 mpg (which Prius's routinely give in real driving) is on a flat car as part of a train.

And no, I don't own or want a Prius. I have a 330i that gets 20 mpg city and 30 mpg highway. Driven flat out on a track, I doubt that it would even get 8 mpg.

The guy really is a buffoon...and a disingenuous one, at that. A real pity that the other two hosts did not call him on this as it REALLY casts a huge shadow on their credibility as car critics.

- Geo

fedlawman

Where else can you see what happens when you buy a $1000 POS, paint "NASCAR Sucks" on the side, and parade through Alabama?

It doesn't get any more scientific and objective than that.

kyfdx

Wasn't that the whole plot of the Borat movie?

fedlawman

Sacha Cohen must be a Top Gar fan...