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Comments
As I showed in the earlier post, EPA numbers for the MB E320 BluTec closely match those reported by a reliable independent test lab...that run by Consumer Reports. You want to beat on the EPA, go for it, but beat on them for something they actually did.
Sheeesh!
My opinion is that the problem with the 335D as a mileage machine is going to be that BMW chose to put their most powerful diesel, of several they have, in the E90 for Us consumption, for their own reasons. That always results in more power and worse mileage. Blame BMW, not the EPA.
As for CR, well actually, you are a bit out of touch about that bias stuff. They test and like a lot of enthusiast cars (Sti, Corvette, Boxster, Z, MazdaSpeed 3, and so on). They do mostly test vanilla sedans and such, but then, that is what most folks buy.
Still makes sense in EU.
Regards,
OW
As for the CR thing - I don't believe a word of any review about any car. CR, Edmunds, MT, Top Gear, etc, etc are entertainment. That's it.
Are you thinking about getting one of the 335Ds when they go on sale here?
We need the price of the car to determine if the 335d makes sense or not.
Regards,
OW
I would expect the diesel to be about a grand more as is the E320 CDI. I assume that is the only competition.
23 MPG 335i vs. 26 MPG 335d is the formula I used for 36,000 at $5 per gallon cost.
We will see.
Regards,
OW
The diesel X5 gets 25% better mileage than the V8 X5 with more torque. It nearly matches the V8 0-60 and beats the 6 cylinder gas version every which way. If diesel hangs in there at a higher price I may get a good deal on one. No way I would buy the gas version that requires Premium unleaded.
Yes but not at the same time!
I personally would rather have 0-60 in 8.2 seconds and get 40 MPG out on the highway. Car magazines are no small part of perpetrating the image that Americans all want fast cars from 0-60 MPH. I outgrew that phase in the early 1960s after about 6 speeding tickets. I like a car that handles well. BMW excels in that department. The X5 may be the best of the best roadhandling SUVs. I would prefer it over the 335D. Just more my style. The neighbors think you are snooty if you are driving a BMW car. SUVs are much more common and not as in your face.
Diesel characteristics are different from a free-revving gas engine, no doubt. Both can be fun, just different kinds of fun. I happen to like low end grunt better, but revving up the engine in my E46 is a blast, too, just don't do it very often.
If you are averaging 27.3 in the 325i, you must be pretty much biased to highway use. I get 20 mpg non-congested city/suburban in my E46 330i...way short of 27.
Then I would deduct 10 to 15% off that MPG so as to allow for the 10-15% higher diesel fuel prices. This would give me the equivalent MPG of a similar gas car.
So if say the numbers (just guessing for argument's sake here) were 23/31, that would be 54/2 or 27 mpg average, less 10% more or less for the diesel fuel penalty price, giving me 24 mpg.
In other words, a 24 mpg gas car would work out to the same fuel costs per year as the diesel posting a 23/31 mpg on the window sticker.
As for other costs, some claim that a diesel has "lower" maintenance costs, but I feel it's more like "different" maintenance costs.
As for the claim that diesel engines are longer-lived, I think that is actually quite true and is worth considering as a factor if you are the type who keeps a car a long time.
As for the whole biodiesel thing, I am not personally going to go around retrieving used peanut oil from Chinese restaurants, so forget that. I don't have the time. As for using pump B100, that depends on BMWs attitude about it.
VW says fine, Mercedes doesn't like you to use it.
Visiting Host
Regards,
OW
So we have about a solid 10 mpg advantage for the 325d (deducting the 15% for the extra cost of diesel and presuming the 325d gets about 28/47, for a 37mpg average minus the 15%).
Or, over 12,500 miles, about $900 a year in savings at $5 a gallon price point. At $6 a gallon that will go up to about $1,100 a year.
Am I missing something here?
Regards,
OW
You're right -- about 40% suburban, 60% highway.
One thing I have noticed with diesels is that at higher highway speeds mileage can drop quite precipitously. What is quite impressive with the smaller ones I've driven (Seat Toledo, Renault Clio) is the top gear performance around 75 to 85.
Clearly, this level of technology is predestined for the U.S. market, not only in terms of power and efficiency, but for its potential to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Which is why, in Fall 2008, we'll introduce two BMW Advanced Diesel with BluePerformance vehicles in the U.S. - the 335d and X5 xDrive35d. In addition to being better for the environment, these diesel engines also have increased torque. This enhanced concept for minimum exhaust gas emissions has been developed to meet the strict emissions standards in effect in California and other states. BMW's BluePerformance technology filters and actually cleans the exhaust before it leaves the vehicle, making this generation of Diesel engines the cleanest BMW has ever produced. With reduced emissions from comparable gasoline vehicles, and near-elimination of both smoke and NOx emissions, BMW Advanced Diesels will be every bit as clean as CARB-legal gasoline engines when they are introduced in the US in 2008.
23 \ 33
The EPA numbers fo a 2008 335i w/A6 trans ( only way the 335d will be sold here, at least initially):
17 \ 26
That would mean + 6 MPG city
and + 7 MPG highway. . .
And + “a bunch of TQ”.
- Ray
Interested to see what ‘real world’ numbers are reported . . .
I'll believe BMW is serious about diesels in the US when they start importing the 1-Series hatchback diesel and the more fuel-efficient 3-series diesel models. The 335d is not a very impressive mileage machine with diesel running some 20% above gas in cost.
I am no CO2 threat alarmist AlGorista, but I do find the BMW advertising that you quote repugnant since the specifically choose not to import their most efficient sedans into the US. And please don't tell me about the Mini. They somehow manage to sell the much more economical BMW models and the (rather silly) Mini in Europe.
And diesel prices here ( near Atlanta ) are more like 10% higher than premium = $4.34 premium & $4.80 diesel.
The purely economic equation will depend largely on the price difference of the diesel motor – and we probably will not know that for a while, yet.
- Ray
Planning to drive one, anyway . . .
I don't believe the problem lies with BMW. They would like to sell whatever they can. It is our regulations that are much stiffer than the EU. The small diesels would need a lot of expensive equipment to meet the EPA & CARB emissions requirement. I don't think there is any real desire in Washington or Sacramento to get fuel saving vehicles on the road. For example CARB allowed VW to sell the Touareg with the V10 diesel that is not in compliance. Yet they blocked the much more fuel efficient V6 diesel in the same vehicle. Does that sound like a state interested in having US use less fossil fuel?
Those very small BMW diesel engines may not be able to be brought into compliance without extensive modification. That would probably kill much of the mileage difference. I am just thankful for a little gain with the diesel BMW will be offering. If they are popular I imagine you will see more in the future.
Recall that BMW has always had far more econimical models for sale in Europe in each Series (and I mean gas and Diesel) for many years that they have chose NOT to import into the US. You look at the engine models that sell well in Europe and they are NOT the BMW models that BMW chose to import here (and they still don't). It is this premium image/high profit thing the BMW marketing types are hooked on. It is not US regulations. The few times recently that they dipped their toes into selling an efficient/affordable model it was cars like the lame 318 hatchback that was expensive for what it was and purposely crippled to not steal sales from pricier models...so it sold poorly.
There is zero excuse for them not selling the 1-series diesel (or gas) hatch in the US except for their fear of image clash. Instead they sell the silly 1-series coupe which people would not even buy in Europe because it is silly. (Say one non-hatch 1-Series in two weeks Germany - it was a convertible.) Our local BMW dealer here says that the 1-Series is a tough sell as it is priced very little below 3-Series, a better car. Maybe Americans are not as dumb as BMW thought?
Oh and feature for feature, dollar for dollar, the 1 series is a far better deal than its main competition the TT.
No need to sell a diesel 1 when the current 1 is selling so well.
This is absurd but it's going to kill diesel sales in California if this keeps up. That's about a 25% premium for diesel fuel. CAL is a huge BMW market and a huge car market.
However, I don't see the 25% gap as HELPING any diesel market.
You have to remember---the diesel passenger car market in America has NEVER been substantial. There's a lot of historical resistance to diesel cars in America.
So it's a real good thing that quality diesel products from BMW and MB will be leading the charge for 2008. One more passenger car diesel "calamity" in America and it's going to be hell trying to sell them here IMO. I'd much rather see BMW or MB doing this than VW or the domestics.
However, you will have the satisfaction of using less fuel and it will be very nice to have the extended driving range so you can refill less often.
There are less stations that sell diesel, but they are not that incredibly rare. Once you know where they are near your home and work, it isn't an issue.
I just got back from Germany/Austria. There are loads of 1-Series small (sub 2-liter) diesel hatchbacks there. Way more to be seen than any other BMW model.
There is no sub-2L-1-Series diesel. 118d, 120d, 123d are all 2.0L. The 3-series still sells better than the 1-series (8687 3ers in April), though 1-Series sales are up big time in Germany (8567 1ers in April) - if you compare April 2008 to April 2007, they sold 132% more 1ers than last year.
I just got a new, black 118d last week. It's fantastic. With a light right foot, 50 mpg is absolutely possible.
I am jealous of your ability to buy the 118d. That's the model I mostly saw. Since the 3-series comes in Diesel flavor in Europe, I can see how the series still out-sells the 1-Series. The only real issue with the 1-Series hatch is that the RWD powertrain makes ot a bit inefficient in stace utilization vs. other small hatches.
It was not substantial in the EU until the modern diesel engine came along. They were sought after here in the USA, in the late 1970s to try and save money on fuel. The supply limited the sale of diesel VWs more than the market. I for one was not able to wait a year to get a diesel Dasher or Rabbit. I could not afford a Mercedes Diesel at the time. The GM diesels were a joke from the start.
If you go out and drive the X5 35D compared to the V6 gasser on the highway I am guessing it will be night and day superiority for the diesel. Then when you get to the station with nearly twice the driving range it will be clear why the Europeans that have a choice go for the diesel versions. Ignorance on the part of Americans is no excuse.
I see your diesel as of yesterday is only 9% higher than Premium, making the BMW diesels an easy decision.
The 1 series is sold out for 2008. May be your local BMW dealer want to rape customers and sell for MSRP + 5K? 135i is perfect car, it has true BMW spirit. Who needs ugly hatchback with weak engines?
The diesel passenger car market in America has always been negligible, peaking at about 6% many years ago (as compared to Europe with something like 40% or more at the present time.)
America has challenges for diesel that Europe doesn't have, such as higher Nox requirements (meaning particulate filters and other bolt-on technologies), as well as considerably higher diesel fuel prices, and formidable American ambivalence about diesel automobiles.
it's probably good that Americans get exposed to more luxury diesel cars right now instead of something from China or Korea or the rather spotty reliability of VW products.
And don't expect GM to bring diesels to the U.S. Lutz sees the diesel advantage deteriorating with the higher cost of the engine itself and the high cost of diesel fuel.
Regards,
OW
So the Germans are in the catbird seat for diesel sales, small as they may be in the future. Market share is market share, no matter how you get it, seems to me.
Great line! Also true for all of the non-diesel cars they make!
Regards,
OW
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
GM deserves credit for trying, but the V-8-6-4 was the Titanic of engine programs. The cars jerked, bucked, stalled, made rude noises and generally misbehaved until wild-eyed owners took the cars to have the system disconnected. For some it was the last time they ever saw the inside of a Cadillac dealership.
Regards,
OW
Given that they were mostly Cadillac Fleetwoods and Oldsmobiles, and given those brands average age of purchasers, they all may very well be dead by now.
RIght now my choices are the X5 and ML diesels from Germany. Both built in the USA. Or at least assembled here.
Regards,
OW