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BMW 335d 2009+
Well, it finally looks like it's going to happen, BMW is finally bringing some of their wonderful diesel engined cars to the U.S.A. (the 335d being one of the first). Personally, I can't wait. 
http://bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Uniquely/FutureTechnologies/EfficientDynamics- /AdvancedDiesel.aspx
Thoughts?
Best Regards,
Shipo
http://bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Uniquely/FutureTechnologies/EfficientDynamics- /AdvancedDiesel.aspx
Thoughts?
Best Regards,
Shipo
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I'm looking forward to testing the 335d.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Now, five model years into the E60, I'm still not at all sold on its looks, and even a 3.5 liter diesel under the hood can only dull the looks so much. :P
Best Regards,
Shipo
Plus the 328i weighs less and has a much higher rev limit (sportier and more fun to drive). I don't get it - am I missing something?
Needless to say it's all mere speculation until the rubber actually hits the pavement here in the States.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I would also expect the diesel to be heavier due to added weight of engine and associated components and additional pollution "stuff".
Now hopefully it will come in an xi version. :tongue
Best Regards,
Shipo
325i SE/330i SE - 39.8/39.2 MPG (imperial); 0-62 in 6.7/6.1 secs
Average (328i) - 39.5 MPG (32.9 MPG US); 0-62 in 6.4 secs
335d SE - 42.2 MPG (35.1 MPG US); 0-62 in 6.2 secs
335d SE - £33,610
335i SE - £31,550
So according to the BMW UK website, compared to the 328i, the 335d is 0.2 seconds quicker to 62 MPH and gets 2.2 MPG better economy. The 335d is also £2,000 more expensive than the 335i. Oh yeah, the 335d weighs 300 lbs more than the 328i.
Sure, the low-end torque and mid-range grunt is a plus, but it's at the expense of a free-revving, high RPM gas engine that, in my opinion, is what makes a BMW so much fun to drive.
Unless my facts are wrong (and I admit we don't know how much it will cost here), it looks like the 335d is an overweight, overpriced pig.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
And for an apples to apples reference, this from the BMW UK website:
330d SE - £30,285; 46.3 MPG (38.5 MPG US); 0-62 MPH in 6.7 secs
Here are the stats oil burner aspiring pistonheads want to know. The 3.0-liter inline six cylinder twin-turbo diesel engine develops 265 hp and, get this, 425 lb.-ft. of torque. That's enough to sling the big [non-permissible content removed] X5 xDrive 35d from 0-62 mph in 7.2 seconds, and power the 335d from 0-62 mph in a respectable 6.2 seconds. Of course, the sprint time doesn't reflect the ENORMOUS in-gear shove. Perhaps more saliently, the diesel X5 gets 19/25 mpg, while the 335d clocks in at 23/33 mpg.
Regards,
OW
Your numbers do confirm that the 335d is only .2 or .3 secs quicker from 0-60 MPH than the 328i.
Price wise, who knows? In the UK, the 335d is quite a bit more expensive than the 335i - and about the same price as a 530i SE or 525i M Sport.
I suppose for the American torque-loving public, a lower revving engine with enormous grunt has some appeal. I imagine the thrill of punching it from a stop and feeling the thrust, but then as the tach needle hits 4000 RPM - which is when things just start getting interesting - I run out of revs and have to upshift. I grew up driving high revving I-4's (and still do), so I know I'm biased. I love to run through the gears to keep an engine on the boil above 4000 RPM, so a stump puller with a 4500 RPM redline just isn't my cup of tea.
I'm guessing the 335d will cost about $8,000 more than the 328i - and I'd choose the 328i even if they cost the same.
I've never driven a diesel but the N54 is a sweet engine and I'll be interested in the difference between the TT NA vs. TT diesel. The urea thing is a question mark for me but since it will be in the maintenance plan, worry is mitigated to some extent.
If the d costs the same as the 335, that will eliminate some of the advantage in efficiency and most of the torque advantage for me. The tt's have their Achilles heel with the oil cooler thing if you track the car but who would track a diesel!?
The advantage should be efficiency so I was a little surprised the MPG wasn't more than 23/33. I was hoping more like 25/38.
Regards,
OW
The US market is obviously quite different. In New England diesel runs about $2.65/gal vs premium at $2.40/gal. At these prices unless a BMW diesel offers either a substantial performance advantage and/or substantial fuel economy advantage there is no way they can demand a substantial purchase price premium. Of course, only time will tell but I highly doubt the typical 3 series BMW customer will choose a diesel. Perhaps an X5 customer might. My guess is that unless gasoline gets well above $5/gal the market for a diesel sports sedan will be very small and BMW will end up selling these at huge discounts and/or great lease deals. Again only time will tell.
IDOC
0-60 times from BMW and achieved by car&driver
328: 6.3sec (bmw), 6.1sec (C&D)
335: 5.4sec (bmw), 4.8sec (C&D)
All were achieved by the sedans with a manual transmission. Clearly what you can see here is the estimates for the 335i are underrated. It remains to be seen if the 335d is more like the 328 or the 335. I'm guessing more like the 335.
The other point to make is that a 0-60 time is essentially irrelevant unless you are at a dragstrip. Also, the 0-60 times by C&D are achieved by dropping the clutch at high rpm, a tactic that is encouraged by your BMW service department. Point is, "real world" acceleration figures, such as 5-60mph times and top gear 30-50 or 50-70 times, are much more indicative of performance, at least IMHO. And it is in this area where a diesel, with massive torque down low will shine -- especially compared to the 328i. To say the 335d gives "328 performance at 5-series price" on the basis of a single statistic is a simplification.
With regards to price, also remember that the UK figures you quoted are for a 335i with a manual and a 335d with an automatic (sadly, the only way it comes). To compare "apples to apples" as fedman is so interested in, you'd need to compare the 335i with an auto, at which point you see that the 2000 eng. pound difference in prices shrinks to 465 pounds -- a big drop.
Conclusion: Skip the diesel...go either the 328 for economy or 335i for high performance.
Regards,
OW
But I haven't driven the 335d.;)
Regards,
OW
I don't want to wave my (let's say ego) in the air with the biggest, baddest diesel (or gas motor, for that matter) that there is. I just want a 2 or 2.5 litre diesel in a vehicle designed for good handling. The BMW 2 or 2.5 or the Audi equivalent would suit me just fine. It doesn't look like it's going to be available for the next couple of years however, if ever.
Honda (Acura) is bringing their 2.2 litre diesel to the U.S. for the TSX & one of their SUV's either this year or next. I'm following that closely, as it more nearly meets my desires than the big BMW motor. Plus which, I'm not sure how long it'll take for the whole diesel thing to settle down at the BMW (& possibly Audi) dealers.
I may end up driving a new gas engine car for a couple or three years while it all settles out, but I'm very much predisposed to get a diesel in a premium brand, if I can do it without worrying about getting to 60 in under 6 (or 5) seconds.
The TSX diesel will probably weigh 400-500 lbs less than the 335d. 40 MPG from a peppy 2.2L diesel makes a lot of sense.
It may be available later this year, or possibly not until next. I've heard both versions, but nothing definitive yet.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
I ask because there was little difference between the 325 and 330 when sold in the US except engine software, intake and exhaust. So technically, for the tuner it was cheaper to buy the 325 and buy a 330's ECU as an instant plug-in upgrade.
And since the 330d and 335d are both twin-variable-vane-turbo 3.0L inline-6 diesels, would it be possible to one day do an ECU swap in the 330d manual and get the car you want for less?
Ummm, no, not even close. There are a great many differences between the 325i and the 330i, not the least of which are the three-track intake on the 330i versus the single track intake on the 325i, the larger and more robust transmission on the 330i as well as the larger and more capable brakes on the 330i. The truth if the matter is that it is FAAAAR cheaper to buy a 330i than it is to buy a 325i and then try to upgrade it.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The real point to my question was if the 330d comes in manual and so far the 335d comes in auto, is there anything preventing a person from upgrading their 330d's engine to 335d level?
Sorry, not buying. Horsepower isn't some magic thing that you can just change some software and presto-chango, more power (unless you've got an artificially aspirated engine). The fact is that unless you tear into the engine (or add a blower), you aren't going to get any kind of a meaningful bump in power, period full stop, the end. Believe it or not, any such changes will far exceed the ~$3,500 (apples-to-apples) cost difference between the two cars.
There is an old adage, "If you want to make your BMW faster, buy a faster BMW."
Regarding a cost effective method of upgrading of a 330d to a 335d level of power, I kind of doubt that one too. True, both engines have forced induction, however, my bet is that due to the turbocharger, induction, injector, and cooling differences (intercooler, oil cooler, and radiator), the cost of bumping the 330d output to 335d levels will either dramatically shorten the life-span of the engine/drivetrain and/or cost far more than simply buying a 335d in the first place.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Case and point: if you want a fast BMW, buy a 135i, slap on a Vishnu kit or whatever is available, and run with the M-class. Sorry, but it won't be long the cheapest BMW coupe can be made to perform similarly (not identical) to the most expensive without much investment.
I have it on good authority that the ECU and intake swap can be done on a 325i/330i, and is successful in making up the power difference. They are otherwise almost the exact same engine, and swapping parts does create bolt-on power. I however do not know how much that would cost, so I won't argue the bang/buck further.
I may not be a BMW tuner, but I've put a wrench to just about everything else. On almost any NA engine, 40bhp is child's play without having to crack open the engine. Ideal intake/exhaust + ECU tune will get you there on a lot of applications. On boosted engines the difference can be even more with those same mods (100+bhp). Its not magic, its engineering. 100bhp bump for the 335i is just a start. BMW doesn't just slap an engine together and it gets what it gets. They PICK a power level they want it to have, and PROGRAM it to operate within that range. Aftermarket engineers and tuners have a lot of room to work with.
So knowing that BMW has in the past used the same engine but with slightly different power levels, I was asking what the real mechanical difference is between 330d and 335d. I did a little homework and I think I answered my own question. The 325d and 330d use single-turbo setups and 335d is dual-turbo. I have my answer, and no they are not compatible with the 335d.
Thank you for the commentary.
Yeah but the 5 or 6 grand to get you there is more expensive than buying an upgraded model. There is no way you can get 40 hp out of a na engine, in the 3 liter range, imo, without some serious modifications to the intake, flow, exhaust, ECU and I don't know what else. I might add...on the cheap. If it were in fact that easy, the manufacturers wouldn't "leave" that much hp on the table for the taking.
Granted it's much easier with forced induction, but that's another topic.
Hmmm, I'm not sure whose authority. I just took a peak over on the Dinan (a master BMW tuner if there ever was one) web site and found the following goodies available for the E90 325i:
1) Ram Air Intake Assembly, 7 HP, 6 lb-ft, $399 (plus labor)
2) High Flow Throttle Body, 5 HP, 4 lb-ft, $399 (plus labor)
3) Free Flow Exhaust, 6 HP, 5 lb-ft, $1,499 (plus labor)
Why no tuning software? Dinan released a statement a few years ago that said basically that BMW has done such a good job with their engine management software that there just aren't any more gains to be had (except for a slightly higher RPM and the removal of programmed top speeds, neither of which add power). So, for $2,297 you can bolt on 18 HP and 15 lb-ft of torque. I'm thinking that a 330i would still stomp the 325i into the dirt. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Edit: Ahhh, I found the link to the Dinan statement: http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info/dispelling-performance-software-myths- - -
Stomp into the dirt! Are you serious!!! 40bhp more? Thats so little power increase I'm not sure I'd notice it! In fact, I've done (dyno-proven) mods of about that power level to other cars and couldn't really tell the difference before and after.
You also forgot to read on. Dinan also said in the same breath:
I’ve had customers tell me that there
is no point in tuning a new BMW because there is no power to be gained due to
the fact that the cars are tuned so well from the factory. Fortunately for
enthusiasts, this has not been our experience at all.
What Dinan goes on to say in that entire testimonial would only reinforce what I already know. Those aftermarket parts you listed above would only be half the job. That 18hp? Thats just from freeing up more air into a system that's not prepared for it. Now buy the Dinan software and that will adjust air/fuel ratios and timing so that fuel supply meets demand. In fact, it would probably double the 18 you calculated. Heyyyy... that's pretty close to 40hp isn't it?
And while that might end up costing more than your cieling $3,500 or whatever, from the very beginning I was suggesting that someone cheated the system by just SWAPPING parts + tune of the 325i/330i. These guys scavenge junkyards for 330i's that were in fender-benders and then pay the yard next to nothing. Next to nothing = CHEAPER!!!
Yes, I'm completely serious. While on paper the difference may not be all that great, drive them back-to-back and there'll be no doubt which one has more torque and accelerates faster, the difference isn't even close.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Or not. From your posts I do not believe one can really scour junk yards and for the cheap end up with 40 hp more. Or maybe one can do it, but seriously compromise the integrity of the engine.
The 325i/328i/330i all 0-60 in about 6.0-7.5 seconds, 1/4-mile in about 15.0-16.0 seconds. Even if one does slightly better in that range that's still nothing to write home about in terms of straight-line acceleration. They 330i doesn't really cross a threshold into 'blistering' performance over the 325i. The 335i, however, does!
Or not. From your posts I do not believe one can really scour junk yards and for the cheap end up with 40 hp more. Or maybe one can do it, but seriously compromise the integrity of the engine.
Actually that's the generally accepted formula. Dinan is saying that mods alone does little, software alone does little. Mods + software compliment each other very well. Many tuners know this. Dinan is trying to make a sale there, remember. They aren't knocking the idea of tuning, they just don't want you to go halfway and complain that you aren't seeing much improvement. They want you to spring for the whole package.
And while I can appreciate your concern for the used car parts, it is a little naive. That is the purpose to 'salvage yards'. 'Junk yards' is a bit of a misnomer. Any time an in-demand car gets written off by someone talking on their cell phone, the salvage yard strips it of parts that are still useful.
Ever been to a body shop for a broken tail lamp? Or need a new front bumper? And you think that the garage you are working with through your insurance always orders a new part from the factory? Oh they might charge you for a new part, but they are getting it used. If you are getting a tail lamp replaced, its from a written-off car with front-end damage. If you're getting a new front bumper, it was from a car that got rear-ended to death.
Even engine parts are recycled. All good auto/body shops know several good salvage yards. It doesn't compromise any integrity. Its the same part. They check it. Its similar to swapping SIM cards in cell phones. It does NOT compromise the integrity of the new phone.
Ummm, that used to be a generally accepted formula, not anymore. The truth of the matter is that if you can fit more air into your engine, and/or scavenge the cylinders a bit better, the software in late model BMWs will do as well as any aftermarket tuner package at delivering additional power. If you know different, please post a link to an ECU upgrade that claims meaningful boosts in output, I'd be very interested in looking at what they have to offer.
Best Regards,
Shipo
link title
310 bhp/266 lb.-ft. and a 2 year warranty.
Regards,
OW
FWIW, I hate superchargers. Why? Because of the huge losses they create. Off the top of my head, I'd bet that that supercharger draws an easy sixty to seventy horsepower at full boil, and that means that to generate 310 hp to the transmission, your engine will need to generate at least 370 hp. Not a recipe for a long engine life. :P
Best Regards,
Shipo
The 335 will do just fine for me, thank you very much.
Regards,
OW
I don't have to look any further than Dinan, which is what you were trying to use to throw me off. BMW is tuned very specifically out of the factory, and has less ability to adjust to changing stimuli from added airflow. No, the formula is more true than ever with Bimmers. Even using natural aspiration.
Dinan:
We’ve talked a bit about software tuning, along with some extra air-flow from less
restrictive filters. A logical question, then would be what about specific software
tuning for other modifications that might be applied to the cars. Modern BMW
engines are so sensitive to accurate tuning and setting faults that in almost every
case a specific version of software designed for use with an engine modification
will result in not only greater power gains but reduced potential for malfunctions
as well. The more extensive the modifications, the more important specific
software for those modifications becomes.
True superchargers are quick-fixes, but I agree they have some drawbacks. Honestly, the 325i and 330i are pretty limited in what they can do in a straight line. That doesn't mean you can't get 40hp one way or the other. Thats pretty easy. But it would take something like a supercharger to actually get them to cross that threshold into the realm of 'fast'.
I agree with circlew that the 335i is a better starting point, but I couldn't resist the cheap fun of tuning it with this:
Vishnu
+75whp
+114wtq
From only an airflow improvement and ECU tune. And it costs $1,300. Will that be cash or charge?
I can't find a link that will claim the 3L E46 engine can be boosted to 265 without forced air induction for a reasonable price. I agree one can do anything for an amount of money, but any amount of money is not where the conversation has been.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The E46 is a platform, not an engine. What engine are you specifically talking about? The E46 M3 had 265hp stock, natural aspiration.
Sorry, not buying. Please, post a link for ANY engine tuner that believes that they have software that can boost a normally aspirated 2006 325i to near 2006 330i levels. Personally I don't believe that it can be done without significant modifications to the actual engine.
As requested.
It's going to cost you under $5k to get your 325i up to 330i territory, so you can really enjoy owning one of BMW's finest sports sedans.
Enjoy:
TMS
Some people are predetermined to think that the BMW models are perfect coming out of the factory, and that they would never give us less than the full potential. I think that is denial. Its 99.9% the same car.
That Vishnu kit, for example, demonstrates how BMW can be one of the most cost-effective and simple tuner vehicles ever made. Even hardcore tuners are amazed at a 75whp increase for less than $1500. With no detriments! Thats practically a record. It shows how overengineered the 335i is, and how much extra punishment it can take.
Thats actually why I came here asking about the diesels. I'm really excited to see if Vishnu makes a kit that helps the 335d gain get between 500-600tq. And if anyone wants to get into how much easier it is to tune diesels, I've got loads to say on that too. But I'll sum it up with this: ITS VERY EASY!
I agree; the good old days of picking up 20-40 NA horsepower by swapping EPROMS are long gone. The big numbers are coming from the tuners who are tweaking the turbo gas and diesel cars.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
No, no, and yes.
No, 20-40hp is not big numbers.
No, those days are not long gone if you are talking 325i.
TMS:
This is an extra 50hp from the 325i - that's almost a 20% improvement! Driving a 265hp car with a thus-altered personality will make the decision to upgrade a no-brainer.
Yes, the big, easy gains come from forced-induction. Like 100+hp.
There is only one engine I could be talking about. The M3 has the 3.2L engine, which I was not referring to. The 325 E46 has a 2.5L engine to which I am not referring to.
There is only one engine I could be talking about. The M3 has the 3.2L engine, which I was not referring to. The 325 E46 has a 2.5L engine to which I am not referring to.
Sorry, bad comprehension skills.
Try this:
Turner
The DynoJet Graph is measured in WHP. I don't know what the typical drivetrail loss is for 330i's but the industry standard is 20%. So 250bhp - 20% = 200whp. So if they can deliver, this chip is offering up to 250bhp with no other mods. I don't see it offered in a bundle, so maybe you could call and ask if the high-flow air filter or mufflers would compliment it well and contribute further to your goal of 265bhp. For $369.00, you'd be halfway there. Not too shabby.
The upgrade costs $4000 and consists of a re-flash (a 18hp increase by itself), new intake manifold, and high flow cats. Most buyers in this segment won't be doing the installation themselves, so add another $700 for installation.
On the other hand, when new, a base 330i was about $5000 more than a base 325i - and included larger wheels and brakes, adaptive xenon headlights, power seats with memory settings, reverse-tilt mirror, and the upgraded audio system.
Sure, you could spend $5000 and add 50hp to an NA BMW, but why bother? The 330i was a better value.