Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

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  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,127
    I can't imagine the proud Germans admitting they can't make it in the US...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, Germans will always do well here, but maybe not THOSE Germans.

    Americans are certainly sharpening their knives...GM might not be such a worry to VW or the Germans, but Ford might be---what with the awesome Mustang and the new Fusion Sport, with AWD and 320HP.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    texases said:

    I can't imagine the proud Germans admitting they can't make it in the US...

    Proud Germans do have BMW and MB here selling to the elite.
    VW is for 'peoples car' and they are being subjected to extortion :angry:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,127
    I was referring to VW. I have no problem 'extorting' money from a criminal...
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    texases said:

    I was referring to VW. I have no problem 'extorting' money from a criminal...

    Two wrongs does not make one right : B)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    You're forgetting about the gobs of money VW makes from Audi in the US. Those gussied up VW's have a lot of profit margin.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    berri said:

    You're forgetting about the gobs of money VW makes from Audi in the US. Those gussied up VW's have a lot of profit margin.

    Yes true. I have many professional friends who prefer to be seen driving an Audi rather then a BMW which seems to be the car of choice of the pretend rich or the noveau rich :smile: And driving an MB is best left to the retired rich baby boomers.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited January 2016
    I just meant if VW shuts down, so too will Audi.

    I seriously doubt that VW will be fined anywhere near $48B. That was some professor's calculation of environmental damages. However, the longer VW obstructs the US review, the higher the fine is likely to climb.

    If VW doesn't cooperate, it may be the US embargoing them rather than VW making the decision.

    Oh and as far a quid pro quo, Luftansa is mostly Airbus now so Boeing arguments are kind of moot. In fact exports make up a relatively small share of US GDP, the opposite of Germany.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,127
    berri said:

    I just meant if VW shuts down, so too will Audi.

    I seriously doubt that VW will be fined anywhere near $48B. That was some professor's calculation of environmental damages. However, the longer VW obstructs the US review, the higher the fine is likely to climb.

    If VW doesn't cooperate, it may be the US embargoing them rather than VW making the decision.

    Oh and as far a quid pro quo, Luftansa is mostly Airbus now so Boeing arguments are kind of mute. In fact exports make up a relatively small share of US GDP, the opposite of Germany.

    Not 'some professor'. There are specified per-car fines on the books, just multiply the fine X number of cheating cars, and you get $48B. All of which VW knew before they cheated.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    carboy21 said:

    texases said:

    I can't imagine the proud Germans admitting they can't make it in the US...

    Proud Germans do have BMW and MB here selling to the elite.
    VW is for 'peoples car' and they are being subjected to extortion :angry:
    Nothing "elite" about a BMW or MB buyer. BMW still has (I believe) their college graduate program, where they give you 2.9% APR and $1000 bucks. All you need apparently is no black marks on your credit for the last 24 months. On leases, they'll wave the security deposit, too.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    BMW still has (I believe) their college graduate program, where they give you 2.9% APR and $1000 bucks

    And those College grads are from Beverly Hills and Malibu in California. When I was a college grad , I had a 5 year old Corolla and could barely afford to buy it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    edited January 2016
    I don't get this "elite" thing either. One can lease a moderately equipped lower model new MB or BMW for under $400/month without a problem.

    In Limeyland, the brands have less of an "elite" cachet than here, as there are cheaper trims available - they are everyday cars, as they are becoming here. This seems very subjective

    Not much more elite than Toyota's Lexus to most random people on the street.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    carboy21 said:

    BMW still has (I believe) their college graduate program, where they give you 2.9% APR and $1000 bucks

    And those College grads are from Beverly Hills and Malibu in California. When I was a college grad , I had a 5 year old Corolla and could barely afford to buy it.

    But you could now unless your FICO was really bad. This is still the age of free money and loose credit.

    VW will give you $800 towards your first payments, even if you haven't graduated but "plan to". If you have graduated, you don't even need an actual job to quality---only a letter of commitment from an employer.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As of 8 hours ago VW is denying any cheat software exists in the 3.0L TDI. That agrees with the letter I received.

    VW first admitted in September that the suspect software was installed in cars with its popular 2.0-liter diesel engines. The company has thus far denied findings by U.S. regulators a smaller number of diesel vehicles with 3.0-liter engines contain similar software.

    http://phys.org/news/2016-01-vw-ceo-submit-emissions-epa.html
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    How do you know they are telling the truth? They won't release their internal documents and we know they've cheated and lied before.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Pretty risky because if the software is on the 3.0L, we'll find it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    berri said:

    How do you know they are telling the truth? They won't release their internal documents and we know they've cheated and lied before.

    Not like the Feds don't lie to US every day. I think the EPA is on a fishing expedition. VW fessed up immediately on the 2.0L TDI with far more to lose. CA did not even test diesel cars till 2010. It is just possible no one bothered to change the Bosch programming as delivered. Hard to imagine diesels back to 1998 that are tested would be cleaner than the much more refined engines?

    How To Pass A Smog Test
    A Closer Look At California's New Diesel Emissions Test
    Mike McGlothlin – Jun 1, 2010

    Since California's passing of a new diesel emissions law for vehicles with less than 14,000-pound gross vehicle weight ratings, we decided to take a closer look at the test and all it entails. What we found was the majority of slightly modified '98 to '07 trucks have no major obstacle to overcome in order to pass a smog test. The key to passing will be to make subtle modifications and add parts that either have Executive Order (EO) numbers or components that resemble the factory hardware. If you're affected by the new law, or if your state is considering the same regulations as the Golden State, you'll want to hold onto this article. As you'll soon see, emissions testing doesn't have to spell the end of diesel performance as we know it. In the end, it might even breed a new generation of sleeper performance diesels.


    http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/expert-advice/1006dp-how-to-pass-a-smog-test/
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Apparently the VW engines were pretty filthy. The Nox emissions were said to be 40X over the U.S. standard. I don't know how this compares to a 1998 engine but 40X does give a 1998 a lot of slack.

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    40x nothing is still nothing. I know you are smarter than that. They changed the limits.

  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Before the Feds and the EPA can lay their grubby hands on the $48 Billion , they have to prove with facts and figures  from independent investigators about the 40x NOX  emissions and how many deaths the cars have caused . Right now its just a typical  fishing expedition lawsuit . A woman got scalded by starbucks coffee and demands a million $$ in compensation. USA is the laughing stock of the World not just in UK. In USA , judicial system is being used to redistribute wealth but I doubt it can  help redistribute wealth from around other sovereign countries  ;)

    Over to @fintail B)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    edited January 2016
    There will be no 48BN. The 40x is tenuous, along with the deaths claim.

    Laughingstock, yes. If any nation is jealous of the US, it is the 52nd state of what was the UK. Nobody in the US cares about British sentiment, but those stuck in Blighty or those unable to hack it at home so they escape to expat jobs there sure fume about the US. The US broke off from the ravenous irresponsible empire, became more successful, and now the decaying old island has a dim future ahead under dumbo demographics and an Orwellian nanny surveillance grid. Kind of amusing that Germany effectively owns the British motor industry today - when volume model RRs and Bentleys are re-engineered BMWs and VWs, someone else laughs back.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,127
    I agree the fine will be much less than $48B. And no deaths need be proven, the fine is just the result of the laws/regulations already on the book. X$/car + Y$/day... = $48B.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    If any nation is jealous of the US, it is the 52nd state of what was the UK.

    Due you have a huge American flag waving outside your house ?
    We have lots of them where I stay. Typical American jingoism
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    gagrice said:

    40x nothing is still nothing. I know you are smarter than that. They changed the limits.

    40X more than the law allows is something. That is the point, not the amount emitted. All slippery moral slopes begin this way.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    Nope, I just call em as I see em. Sometimes reality is harsh.

    Do you have a VW or Toyota or interest in diesel cars? Or just stuck on whining about the world's policeman>
    carboy21 said:



    Due you have a huge American flag waving outside your house ?
    We have lots of them where I stay. Typical American jingoism

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    fintail said:

    There will be no 48BN. The 40x is tenuous, along with the deaths claim.

    Kind of amusing that Germany effectively owns the British motor industry today - when volume model RRs and Bentleys are re-engineered BMWs and VWs, someone else laughs back.

    Even more Ironic is the fact that India the country GB kept in slavery for a few hundred years, now owns Jaguar and Land Rover and all their steel production.

    It won't be long before most of our auto makers have foreign owners.

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2213256/Ten-best-cars-Britain.html
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not sure owning Jaguar is an asset---it's marginal. LR is a profit-maker though.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    USA is the laughing stock of the World not just in UK. In USA

    hahaha - pretty funny. Thanks for today's chuckle :D

    Hey, I'll be the first to admit that the US has had some pretty poor leadership in Washington combined with ridiculous levels of divisiveness for awhile now. The culmination of all of this is the transitions in politics taking place right now. History is full of this kind of stuff.

    Do you think that sometimes people look down or laugh at others to take the stress off their own problems? Let's take a quick trip around the globe. France is starting to better understand what the US has been going through and moving closer to us (that probably rubs a little salt in some old colonial thinking elsewhere). Merkel has her hands full with internal issues in Germany. Spain still has minority areas pushing for secession. Italy and Greece, why they are always organized and efficient. I believe Britain has a little issue right now called Scotland. The Middle East is it's same cohesion of religious tolerance. No problems in Asia either, right?

    Let's see, the UK has several very big industries I believe; Big North Sea oil with always loved companies like BP, Big Pharma, and a powerful financial district in London - yep, just like Wall Street. Never any scandals in any of these area, right? And never any political strife or dissension either. It only happens in America...

    I always find it funny when people spit out insults towards America, but come running over to us when crises hit. In scary times they also seem prone to buying things like US Treasuries and real estate. Ever been to Disneyworld?. If you rent a condo down there, there is a good chance it will be owned by Brits. Now which country is relied on to protect Middle eastern oil and its shipping through Hormuz or Suez even though far more of that oil goes to the European continent or Asia than to the States? Which country is primarily relied on to protect us all from North Korea or Pakistan nukes, or to keep the Sea of China open to others' transit? So go on and keep looking down on us until you come running to us when there is another crisis. We'll be there because despite our faults, America is a giving nation. So yes, I'm proud to be an American and you have every right to be proud of your heritage. The world has synergy when it has leadership, and frequently that requirement falls on the US and its resources. Others certainly help, but very often America leads.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    berri said:

    USA is the laughing stock of the World not just in UK. In USA

    hahaha - pretty funny. Thanks for today's chuckle :D

    Hey, I'll be the first to admit that the US has had some pretty poor leadership in Washington combined with ridiculous levels of divisiveness for awhile now. The culmination of all of this is the transitions in politics taking place right now. History is full of this kind of stuff.

    Do you think that sometimes people look down or laugh at others to take the stress off their own problems? Let's take a quick trip around the globe. France is starting to better understand what the US has been going through and moving closer to us (that probably rubs a little salt in some old colonial thinking elsewhere). Merkel has her hands full with internal issues in Germany. Spain still has minority areas pushing for secession. Italy and Greece, why they are always organized and efficient. I believe Britain has a little issue right now called Scotland. The Middle East is it's same cohesion of religious tolerance. No problems in Asia either, right?

    Let's see, the UK has several very big industries I believe; Big North Sea oil with always loved companies like BP, Big Pharma, and a powerful financial district in London - yep, just like Wall Street. Never any scandals in any of these area, right? And never any political strife or dissension either. It only happens in America...

    I always find it funny when people spit out insults towards America, but come running over to us when crises hit. In scary times they also seem prone to buying things like US Treasuries and real estate. Ever been to Disneyworld?. If you rent a condo down there, there is a good chance it will be owned by Brits. Now which country is relied on to protect Middle eastern oil and its shipping through Hormuz or Suez even though far more of that oil goes to the European continent or Asia than to the States? Which country is primarily relied on to protect us all from North Korea or Pakistan nukes, or to keep the Sea of China open to others' transit? So go on and keep looking down on us until you come running to us when there is another crisis. We'll be there because despite our faults, America is a giving nation. So yes, I'm proud to be an American and you have every right to be proud of your heritage. The world has synergy when it has leadership, and frequently that requirement falls on the US and its resources. Others certainly help, but very often America leads.

    Sheriff and Policeman of the World. No one denies that fact. But who created all the mess in the world for the policeman to give protection to the victims ? B)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    Compared to most of the world, the USA economy looks pretty darn good. And no one can deny--2015 was a boom-boom year for automakers.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Meanwhile, is VW going to be number one in (something) again?

    Sales, profits, awards?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    But who created all the mess in the world for the policeman to give protection to the victims ?

    Why it must be the United States. Certainly couldn't be places like Russia, Iran or China. We know they are all about world peace and wouldn't take any actions to harm others and improve their lot. They run very open countries and want freedom for all.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    stever said:
    Meanwhile, is VW going to be number one in (something) again? Sales, profits, awards?
    Highest number of diesel cars  sold in the world  :)
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016

    berri said:
    But who created all the mess in the world for the policeman to give protection to the victims ? Why it must be the United States. Certainly couldn't be places like Russia, Iran or China. We know they are all about world peace and wouldn't take any actions to harm others and improve their lot. They run very open countries and want freedom for all.
    USA meddles in the world via CIA . We call it regime change . Been going on since the ruler of Iran was toppled by CIA and its puppet , the SHAH of Iran was installed , which led to the rise of Ayatollah Khomeini . Latest regime change was in Ukraine where a democratic  government was toppled and a pro west puppet President was installed . How we all love America's altruism in the World !. Gotta get a huge flagpole and a massive flag to fly outside my house . Off to Home Depot  to get them  B)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    edited January 2016
    Calling anything in a place like UKR "democratic" is amusing. Nothing we would call democratic, just one mess replaced with a mildly less horrible mess. Who claims altruism? A lot of problems in the world today stem from the divvying up done by the old European empires, especially the British. No room for a moral high ground from anything connected to the island.

    Once a settlement is reached, VW will lead the world - in recalls ;)

    I suppose LR really turns a profit too. It is a good vehicle for this new gilded age.
    carboy21 said:



    USA meddles in the world via CIA . We call it regime change . Been going on since the ruler of Iran was toppled by CIA and its puppet , the SHAH of Iran was installed , which led to the rise of Ayatollah Khomeini . Latest regime change was in Ukraine where a democratic  government was toppled and a pro west puppet President was installed . How we all love America's altruism in the World !. Gotta get a huge flagpole and a massive flag to fly outside my house . Off to Home Depot  to get them  B)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Okay diesel cars it is.

    Anything to get us off geopolitical politics.

    /hint
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    Okay diesel cars it is.

    Anything to get us off geopolitical politics.

    /hint

    This is the Can VW over take GM and Toyota. The answer is Yes and NO.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Key Volkswagen officials on Monday reaffirmed the company's Chattanooga plant expansion, its planned new sport utility vehicle and the hiring of 2,000 more employees.

    "We stand firmly behind our Chattanooga plant," said Herbert Diess, head of the German automaker's Volkswagen brand worldwide, at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit."

    VW moving ahead with Chattanooga plant expansion, SUV, jobs (timesfreepress.com)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I don't think VW going ahead of GM is that hard. VW is big in cars, GM more spread around trucks and crossovers. The former are more popular outside of the US. VW has brands like Skoda set up in smaller economy countries as well. Also GM has made it clear that being #1 in sales is not a corporate goal. Profitability is more important. However, if other parts of the world move in the direction of US preferences, that may set VW back down the road. The only way I see VW beating Toyota and it's efficiencies is if China takes trade actions against them.

    Speaking of VW, I wonder if ultimately they take over FCA? FCA is lagging the industry financially, but has trucks, SUV's, vans and the Jeep name. That could add a lot to the VW product offerings allowing them to expand sales.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Can VW overtake Toyota and GM to become # 1 ?


    Definitely YES

    But  to do so it has to walk out of the USA market after refusing to pay any fines , refusing to modify any diesel cars already sold, selling its assembly plant in TN  and the dealership networks to Hyundai/ KIA , spin off  Audi as a separate entity majority owned by a Wall Street venture capitalist and VW having a 49 percent stake.Then focus on car sales in the rest of the world where no one gives  a fig about Nox emissions levels .

    Over to the motorheads  B)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    That'll happen about as soon as Anglophiles stop pretending their island is some kind of superior being.

    It'll be interesting to see how long it takes for a settlement to be reached, and any politics involved.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481


    The issue as I see it is pretty simple, as regards CARB--- in order to sell these diesels in California you had to meet California emissions standards----your choice. Since VW sold these diesels in California, they have to conform, as per the original agreement. Just like all the other makers of diesels that made their engines conform.

    Seems like the VW CEO got himself into hot water by commenting in a press conference that VWs problem was overblown, and really just a managerial and not an "ethical" issue. The USA didn't find that funny. One would think he might have kept his mouth stapled shut until after meeting with the authorities---as they say about court: You diss the judge AFTER the sentencing...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited January 2016
    I still think it may be hard for VW to pass Toyota without expanding it's product line. I'm guessing they sell more Audi and Porsche combined than Lexus, but they've got a big hole in crossovers and trucks. Those are starting to get more popular outside of North America.

    Carboy, I think VW needs that Audi revenue as well as sales unit count if they are fighting for the #1 title, which I still think is a stupid corporate management goal and metric.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Maybe VW can get #1 by using Skoda and pushing small, very cheap vehicles in the poorer developing world. It will get them count, but likely pull down corporate profit margins. There used to be a marketing strategy that gaining early entry in a small market leads to growth as the market later matures. However, nowadays it appears more likely that an early, cheap car entry strategy may just stick you with an image problem as wealth grows and enable new entrants to take the cream off the top of the market.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    The issue as I see it is pretty simple, as regards CARB--- in order to sell these diesels in California you had to meet California emissions standards----
    ..........  and they passed the emissions tests . If EPA/ CARB  did not  test correctly its not VW's fault . They passed the emissions test as administered by EPA. Whatever is sold is sold , future sales can be banned   :p
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,127
    So installing cheat code to get around the tests is A-OK?
    We're done here...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    carboy21 said:





    The issue as I see it is pretty simple, as regards CARB--- in order to sell these diesels in California you had to meet California emissions standards----

    ..........  and they passed the emissions tests . If EPA/ CARB  did not  test correctly its not VW's fault . They passed the emissions test as administered by EPA. Whatever is sold is sold , future sales can be banned   :p

    But of course, all criminal activity should be forgiven if it is not detected right away.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016

    carboy21 said:





    The issue as I see it is pretty simple, as regards CARB--- in order to sell these diesels in California you had to meet California emissions standards----

    ..........  and they passed the emissions tests . If EPA/ CARB  did not  test correctly its not VW's fault . They passed the emissions test as administered by EPA. Whatever is sold is sold , future sales can be banned   :p
    But of course, all criminal activity should be forgiven if it is not detected right away.


    Ofcourse not, never condone a criminal activity . That is why GM should be fined $124 billion for the 124 murders it committed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Straw man argument. We are talking about violation of emissions law.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Good idea carboy, drop a fine on a company so large that it goes out of business. Lots of vendors loose their contract revenue, dealers fold, and many families are hit with sudden unemployment. That'll show 'em :p
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