Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

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  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    You'll never win an argument that uses the word "[non-permissible content removed]". :)

    I know that. It just gives me the satisfaction to call these green weenie pretenders as [non-permissible content removed] as like the [non-permissible content removed] of the past, they think they are the superior beings LOL.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No worse than your favorite sports hero.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,144
    TDI worked because it...didn't.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    VW is out of the game for the moment, at least in the U.S. Penalty box.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think some consumers have the perception that hybrids are better for the environment than diesels. Of course, they probably don't know much about "clean" electronics manufacturing and recycling :o
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    berri said:
    I think some consumers have the perception that hybrids are better for the environment than diesels. Of course, they probably don't know much about "clean" electronics manufacturing and recycling :o
    Passing on the toxic pollution to the Lithium mining states and countries :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,591
    Pollution is just fine, as long as it is in someone else's backyard. Ask any hybrid/EV fan.

    Regarding MB diesel sedans, there's always been a gas model, but sometimes not more than a couple, early-mid 70s.

    Regarding "the high premiums charged for diesel cars by the established manufacturers like Mercedes Benz", last time I checked, the E Bluetec based slightly cheaper than the gasoline model. Urea maintenance also isn't unreasonably expensive for anyone who has opposable thumbs and can operate a funnel.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    berri said:

    I think some consumers have the perception that hybrids are better for the environment than diesels.

    It's really hard to find good info on the total cost of a product - people focus on mpg or fuel costs and the manufacturing cost don't figure in, much less the health and "environmental" costs.

    And when you find a study, you have to be able to read it and try to spot any biases. Or the study just focuses on, say, greenhouse gases.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    All those people who moved to Arizona for their health had their asthma come back after living there a while.

    AZ did have one of the healthiest climates in the World. Then they realized with all that Colorado river water they could grow all kinds of stuff. Of course all kinds of stuff produces all kinds of pollen. Only solution I see is lots of rain to keep the air pure. Cleanest air on the planet is in Kapoho, HI. We have spent many weeks there and never felt better. Nothing but trade winds across 2500 miles of cleansing Pacific Ocean.

    If we do move there you will have to put up with our Touareg TDI, I don't see us without it anywhere we move.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This is right next door to where we rent in Kapoho on the Big Island. If you like privacy and perfect weather, I don't know of a better place.

    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/14-4708-Ewa-Ln-Pahoa-HI-96778/533485_zpid/
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Living in Hawaii is fine for a month or two. Then one gets very bored. I have a friend who has settled in Kaui. A paradise on Earth. But nothing to do there except read a tons of novels.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Toyota and Honda seem to have little interest in diesels

    Maybe not in the dwindling US market. I do recall Honda spending $millions to develop a world class diesel engine. Only to find out they could not get it clean enough for CARB. That is a big seller for them in the UK. I don't think Toyota would be the World leader without diesel PU trucks and SUVs sold all over the planet.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    You'll never win an argument that uses the word "[non-permissible content removed]". :)

    I think a Newsweek journalist just did in reference to Ted Cruz. May become PC if you are liberal describing the right.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    VW is out of the game for the moment, at least in the U.S. Penalty box.

    Hard to lose market share you never really had. Audi and Porsche are still doing well. Audi ended 60 months of gain. Best year ever for them. Without diesels did not seem to hurt them much. True diesel people will just wait until the nonsense ends and buy their new diesel XXX.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    gagrice said:

    Nothing but trade winds across 2500 miles of cleansing Pacific Ocean.

    I'd make a Fukushima crack but you're probably more at risk from it in SoCal.

    Funny headline from Bloomberg:

    The Mexico Car Market Is So Hot Even Volkswagen Posts Sales Gain

  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    fintail said:
    . Regarding "the high premiums charged for diesel cars by the established manufacturers like Mercedes Benz", last time I checked, the E Bluetec based slightly cheaper than the gasoline model. 
    How many people can afford to buy a MB ?  Check out the price difference between the Chevy Cruze diesel and gasser . That is more appropriate for the common man .
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    gagrice said:

    Nothing but trade winds across 2500 miles of cleansing Pacific Ocean.

    I'd make a Fukushima crack but you're probably more at risk from it in SoCal.

    Funny headline from Bloomberg:

    The Mexico Car Market Is So Hot Even Volkswagen Posts Sales Gain

    I liked this from Mexico, and I have to agree having owned several VWs over the last 45 years. Not all were perfect. None left me stranded along the road like Honda, Toyota, Ford, Chrysler and GM.

    “For generations, families at one time or another have owned a Volkswagen and have a first impression of the brand,” Rosales said. “They say ‘It’s never conked out on me, it’s a car I can trust.’ The scandal doesn’t have the same impact it’s had in other markets.”

    Also bet they are still buying VW diesels in Mexico and driving them across the border into El Paso etc.
    Looking at past years sales in the USA. VW had a worse year in 2014 than 2015. They lost 10% in 2014 over 2013. The loss last year over 2014 was 4.78%. A lot of the problem as I see it is a decent line up. The Tiguan and Sportswagen sell very well. If their sales were 25% diesel, that were dropped from availability in October, that would more than account for the years loss of 4.78%. VW needs a small PU and a minivan both with diesel to regain past sales. The market has changed and they are slow to keep up.

    I think the way ocean currents travel, the first hit by dirty water from Fukushima is Alaska then down the coast to Vancouver BC, Washington, Oregon and California. Cesium levels are elevated in Tuna caught along the coast of the USA. Not sure if it is currents or wide ranging travel of some of the Tuna species. I have not noticed the tuna we get from Oregon glowing in the dark. ;) We only eat it about once a month for that reason.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    OT, but a week or so ago I was on the Interstate here and someone with Chihuahua plates was barely doing 55 in a 65. Usually our visitors just drive like everyone else so I assume this driver was scared that a cop would shoot them for having a burnt out taillight or something.

    VW really doesn't have the right mix of cars for the US, especially not with the oil glut and cheap gas.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, a tweet...but he apologized. I guess we can blame Seinfeld for abuse of the word.
    gagrice said:

    Mr_Shiftright said:

    You'll never win an argument that uses the word "[non-permissible content removed]". :)

    I think a Newsweek journalist just did in reference to Ted Cruz. May become PC if you are liberal describing the right.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    True to an extent, but the scandal still besmirches the entire VW name.

    I don't think this is "nonsense" and I don't think it's going away, not for VW and not for the diesel passenger car market in general. I can only offer as some evidence for this argument the devastating effect of the GM diesel engine debacle.
    gagrice said:

    Mr_Shiftright said:

    VW is out of the game for the moment, at least in the U.S. Penalty box.

    Hard to lose market share you never really had. Audi and Porsche are still doing well. Audi ended 60 months of gain. Best year ever for them. Without diesels did not seem to hurt them much. True diesel people will just wait until the nonsense ends and buy their new diesel XXX.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Imagine the following dialogue

    Obama :  Angella, VW has cheated . They have to pay $48 billon in fines 

    Merkel  :  Barrack, GM has killed scores  of people and you bailed them out .

    Obama: I need the votes of the UAW unions 

    Merkel  :  VW is owned by the Auto Unions

    Obama:   OK Angela , just pay a few million  and help me out of this 'situation'

    Merkel :  OK Barrack, we will order few more Boeings from you and you keep your bloodhounds EPA  and CARB   out  of  VW's   hair .


    :smile:     
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    maybe in a Hollywood movie. :)
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Mr_Shiftright said:
    maybe in a Hollywood movie. :)
    Nope , most likely in the White House in the next few months :smile: 
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No way. World leaders don't talk like that, nor do they even talk to each other about such matters. That's all done on the diplomatic or Sec'y of State level, or arbitrated through international trade commissions.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    No way. World leaders don't talk like that, nor do they even talk to each other about such matters. That's all done on the diplomatic or Sec'y of State level, or arbitrated through international trade commissions.

    They do when the mike is off :smile:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I suspect their actual conversations off mic are pretty mundane.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    I suspect their actual conversations off mic are pretty mundane.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/03/30/why-a-boeing-777-costs-320-million-dollars/7063805/

    $48 Billion can buy 150 Boeing 777 Jumbo Jets. Just imagine the stakes involved.
    When $48 Billion in fines is at stake, they would talk about it even alone in a bedroom :smile:
    Instead of paying $48 billion in fines, VW should order 150 Boeing 777s and start an Aircraft leasing company :smile:
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I don't foresee Germany taking much trade action against the US over VW. Remember, Germany runs a nice sized trade surplus against the US and really against much of the world. They are a trading economy.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,591
    edited January 2016
    That wasn't the point. The original statement was a high premium for diesel cars - which MB does not charge, at least for the E (only one I've compared). MB charges a premium for all cars vs more mass market brands. You pay for the badge, but also for some engineering.

    carboy21 said:


    How many people can afford to buy a MB ?  Check out the price difference between the Chevy Cruze diesel and gasser . That is more appropriate for the common man .

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,591
    I suspect Germany needs US consumers (and military) more than the US needs German purchases. There will be no trade war, nor pie in the sky threat of anyone boycotting US goods over this, as was threatened earlier. Not gonna happen. It'll be fines and business as usual - I suspect the ambulance chasing set will be more troublesome in the long run.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think this is "nonsense" and I don't think it's going away, not for VW and not for the diesel passenger car market in general. I can only offer as some evidence for this argument the devastating effect of the GM diesel engine debacle.

    There is a HUGE difference between the GM diesel mess and the VW dieselgate. With GM it was the consumer that got screwed. With VW it was an illusion of more pollution that caught the EPA with their pants down. No VW owners have lost anything unless they were just plain silly and sold their VW to show they were green.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    I suspect their actual conversations off mic are pretty mundane.

    You mean when Obama told Medvedev he would fix it after he got re-elected.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/9167332/Barack-Obama-microphone-gaffe-Ill-have-more-flexibility-after-election.html
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    fintail said:
    I suspect Germany needs US consumers (and military) more than the US needs German purchases. There will be no trade war, nor pie in the sky threat of anyone boycotting US goods over this, as was threatened earlier. Not gonna happen. It'll be fines and business as usual - I suspect the ambulance chasing set will be more troublesome in the long run.
    Some of the the Worlds best engineeering companies are from Germany, like Siemens and a bunch more of them and  if they break sanctions with Russia , Iran  , Syria  , .... they won't need American consumers anymore .
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,591
    edited January 2016
    Germany won't break those sanctions. EU won't let it (European nations have no sovereignty, as you should know), and the US military is there, which can impact things in more than one way.

    Besides, Russia is a financial train wreck with no upside on the horizon, Syria is a humanitarian disaster, Iran isn't much better off - not even close to the amount of trade potential.

    "they won't need American consumers anymore"

    Please show me the numbers behind this. You obviously have high credentials in both geopolitics and international business, I need to be schooled. I want to learn.

    Boycott US goods, LOLOL
    carboy21 said:


    Some of the the Worlds best engineeering companies are from Germany, like Siemens and a bunch more of them and  if they break sanctions with Russia , Iran  , Syria  , .... they won't need American consumers anymore .
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    fintail said:
    Germany won't break those sanctions. EU won't let it. I need to be schooled. I want to learn. 
    Difficult to teach hardheaded motorheads :smile: 

    Couple  of decades ago Toshiba sold to the Soviets , highly classified propeller milling machines which helped the Soviets  build highly silent nuclear submarines which at a single stroke destroyed the strategic advantage the US nuclear submarines had over the Soviet nuclear submarines . They went on to build the dreaded Akula class nuclear submarines almost as silent as the US ones .

    http://articles.philly.com/1987-07-20/business/26200847_1_toshiba-corporation-toshiba-machine-kongsberg-vaapenfabrikk
    http://articles.latimes.com/1987-09-10/business/fi-6976_1_toshiba-machine

    You need to go join an International Bussiness School programme to know how no country is immune to trade war., including the mighty USA. I will have to charge Edmunds my teaching fees :smile: 
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    Say what? The VW consumer got screwed all right, in the most devious of ways. GM gave consumers a bad diesel engine, but VW gave consumers an illegal one. Your tolerance for corporate malfeasance is impressive!
    gagrice said:

    I don't think this is "nonsense" and I don't think it's going away, not for VW and not for the diesel passenger car market in general. I can only offer as some evidence for this argument the devastating effect of the GM diesel engine debacle.

    There is a HUGE difference between the GM diesel mess and the VW dieselgate. With GM it was the consumer that got screwed. With VW it was an illusion of more pollution that caught the EPA with their pants down. No VW owners have lost anything unless they were just plain silly and sold their VW to show they were green.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,591
    edited January 2016
    Yes, an incident from almost 30 years ago is completely applicable to this, real apples-to-apples. Nice catch. Yeah, in a trade war (that won't happen), Germany would make up for US business and this tasty strong greenback with trade from progressive modern economic powerhouses like Russia. Syria, and Iran.

    If that 30 year old incident was a real issue, there would have been penalties - the US still maintains a military occupation in Japan, just as it does in Germany. Dreaded subs? In which war?

    One who can't spell "Business" shouldn't be giving lectures about education ;)

    The world will boycott US goods LOLOLOLOLOLOL

    Such a brilliant mind and no doubt top notch credentials in both business and political strategy shouldn't have a problem buying one of those insanely expensive MB/BMW diesels. ;)
    carboy21 said:

    <
    Difficult to teach hardheaded motorheads :smile: 

    Couple  of decades ago Toshiba sold to the Soviets , highly classified propeller milling machines which helped the Soviets  build highly silent nuclear submarines which at a single stroke destroyed the strategic advantage the US nuclear submarines had over the Soviet nuclear submarines . They went on to build the dreaded Akula class nuclear submarines almost as silent as the US ones .

    http://articles.philly.com/1987-07-20/business/26200847_1_toshiba-corporation-toshiba-machine-kongsberg-vaapenfabrikk
    http://articles.latimes.com/1987-09-10/business/fi-6976_1_toshiba-machine

    You need to go join an International Bussiness School programme to know how no country is immune to trade war., including the mighty USA. I will have to charge Edmunds my teaching fees :smile: 

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    What the ...? Is this an election year or something?

    If so, wake me up when it's over. Have to wonder if the fines will be levied before the primary or in 2017.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    VW is going to have to take its spanking.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    @fintail

    LOLOLOLOLOL

    Ok , we are even in the laughs department . I never said I have a degree un International Business :smile: 

    I am just twisting your tail. Yes I cannot afford a BMW  or MB.  I was planning to buy a Passat TDI

    Your naivete is highly amusing to me ,  I wonder what is your IQ  :smile: regarding your question of submarines in which war   . Look up Akula class nuclear attack submarines and which war they were in . And I am too lazy to correct my typos   :smile: 
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Let's keep the conversation friendly please.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,591
    edited January 2016
    Submarines are as relevant to this topic as toy poodles or accordions.

    It will play out like this - VW will pay a substantial fine (it did indeed cheat), but enormously less than the maximum posted here not long ago. That will be it. There will be little if any protest, VW will move on, and remain in the US market.

    There will be no trade war, no boycott.

    Toyota will remain in the lead for awhile, while its designs become even more bizarre in a never ending quest to not be "boring" - when designs weren't the real problem to begin with.

    Maybe I misinterpreted sarcasm or snark, it can be difficult online :)
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    fintail said:

    Submarines are as relevant to this topic as toy poodles or accordions.

    My point was not specific to submarines. My point was that your allies can break sanctions and supply sensitive technology to the enemy out of spite . Germany has lots of world class engineering companies who can get lucrative contracts from Russia and Iran., just like the Japanese Toshiba did during the cold war .
    Whats so difficult to understand ?? Dr Watson :smile:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,144
    Not going to happen. Germans have no love lost for Russia.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,591
    The US might take much more action against Germany than it did Japan, if it dared to do that. Which is moot, as it isn't going to happen. There will be no trade war or similar retaliation. Mark my words.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    Not going to happen. Germans have no love lost for Russia.

    Their winter heating gas comes mostly from Gazprom :smile:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,591
    According to Wingas

    image

    Germany isn't going to get in bed with Russia. Nothing will happen.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think more trade secrets and commercial advantages are lost through the greed of US CEO's selling or contracting out sensitive technology and goods to make or save a buck and add to their compensation bonuses. For example, in Defense technology, how often does the US taxpayer shell out to develop some big battlefield advantage, like thermal night vision a few decades back, when the companies start lobbying Congress and end up selling it to places like the Middle East? Why have US corporations and government put so much classified or sensitive information on the Internet - to layoff employees, contract out and improve the bottom line. Then it gets ripped off and the same companies start whining and cry babying.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,144
    carboy21 said:

    texases said:

    Not going to happen. Germans have no love lost for Russia.

    Their winter heating gas comes exclusively from Gazprom :smile:
    Not close. Less than 40%. World is going to be swimming in LNG over the next few years.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Russians are not trying to extort $48 Billion from the Germans :open_mouth:
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