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Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    This isn't a politician, this is a commercial enterprise. They cannot endure a lengthy, ugly legal battle. The competition will exploit your misfortune in a quick and deadly manner.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    This isn't a politician, this is a commercial enterprise. They cannot endure a lengthy, ugly legal battle. The competition will exploit your misfortune in a quick and deadly manner.

    Who GM ?

    VW does not compete with anyone in the USA. They are not Toyota, VW sales are global, specially Europe , Asia, China, ......... ., where they give a fig about 'Murika' , the great global policeman . :D

    So much narcissism involved in thinking that the USA is the center of the world and that no company can survive without the USA market. Precisely the attitude that makes USA the most disliked nation in the world.

    Common @fintail, over to you B)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well if VW wants to give up the U.S. market, sure. Good luck with that. They wouldn't be the first automaker to crash and burn in the China market.

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    If that's the case, then VW/Audi/Porsche should leave our market. We don't need them either. But you and I both know that's not the case, don't we! If VW folds in the US, it takes the brand image down in Asia with it. It becomes a "loser" in a major market. That was probably the main reason GM decided to keep Buick in the US during the BK. I think you are also forgetting the leadership in China is directly addressing their air pollution issues these days. So cheating and lying on emissions is not a smart strategy in that market today either.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    That's the thing though, it is still clean diesel even with the emissions fail. Clean compared to a 1981 diesel Rabbit or 1977 240D. The campaign was an attempt to change people's mindset about diesel, that it isn't what it was 35 years ago.

    In reality, there is no "clean" transport. It all has pollution attached, even the darling Prius and Tesla. Just don't tell the owners and cultists, although it might not matter, hypocrisy is their strong suit.
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    fintail said:



    I don't think that's an entirely fair statement. Many people bought into the idea (promulgated by VW's rather lavish PR campaign) of "clean diesel", and by greenie websites as well.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    China leads the world in clean energy investment. I rather doubt they would take kindly to VWs cheating either.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    I like to think/hope the urea cars won't be included. A German lobbyist group (their greenie hypocrites are even louder than those in Murka) pretending to be an expert claimed they had a 6 year old MB CDi not in compliance, but they refused to provide data, and the claim seems to have vanished.

    They will settle at the first palatable figure. They don't want this drawn out in court. Contrary to what some claim, things that happen in the US will have an impact in many other places, if they happen long enough. It'll directly impact loud ones in the 52nd state of Canuckistan, too.
    berri said:

    If I was the German government right now, being an export dependent economy, I'd want to make sure no subcontractors or vendors possibly involved in this VW escapade have done similar stuff to MB or BMW. German products have a strong reputation for engineering that results in high profit margins. A series of these kind of things could dilute this, just like some Japanese car company quality lapses took away most of their ability to charge higher prices for quality in the world marketplace.

    As for VW, they got caught red handed by independent testing. I don't think they would have admitted it otherwise. They now just need to clean it up quickly before it soils the brands.

    As for diesels, I think the US market still kind of thinks of them as dirty, smelly and noisy, even though its not as true anymore. But this incident won't help. It just moves the needle more toward hybrids here probably.

  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    China leads the world in clean energy investment. I rather doubt they would take kindly to VWs cheating either.

    Closing the barn door after ............... :p
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    As for diesels, I think the US market still kind of thinks of them as dirty, smelly and noisy, even though its not as true anymore. But this incident won't help. It just moves the needle more toward hybrids here probably.

    And we wonder why the rest of the World thinks of Americans as the least intelligent and educated
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Only the parts of the world that don't know about Alberta and Ontario ;)
    carboy21 said:



    And we wonder why the rest of the World thinks of Americans as the least intelligent and educated

  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Well if VW wants to give up the U.S. market, sure. Good luck with that. They wouldn't be the first automaker to crash and burn in the China market.

    Can someone bring out the overall percentage of profits the VW makes in the USA out of its total Global profits ? Shouldn't be difficult for the Edmunds pundits :)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Sometimes people envy the more successful. The US may not have the highest multiple test scores, but it is still a major leader in innovation and product development in the world. Carboy, I think you either just like to goad people, or you are someone who doesn't like America. We have faults, but we also have strengths, like everyone else on this planet.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It is actually not that easy to derive profits by market unless it's disclosed by the company (and most don't). It can also be misleading even if you estimate because of things like corporate overhead absorption and the like that affect the overall company bottom line. If you leave a market, you don't just loose those profits, you have a revenue reduction that affects the entire company financials beyond the lost segment profit.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    fintail said:

    That's the thing though, it is still clean diesel even with the emissions fail. Clean compared to a 1981 diesel Rabbit or 1977 240D.

    Moose nuggets are a lot cleaner than cow pies too, if you get my drift. But it is what it is. :D

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,704
    Moose nuggets! The all-purpose gift!

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    berri said:

    Sometimes people envy the more successful. The US may not have the highest multiple test scores, but it is still a major leader in innovation and product development in the world. Carboy, I think you either just like to goad people, or you are someone who doesn't like America. We have faults, but we also have strengths, like everyone else on this planet.

    The biggest danger, if the USA continues its plunge into being anti-scientific, anti-clean energy and more xenophobic, is a "brain-drain". Our best minds will go to places where science is more respected, or needed. I suspect foreign automakers have already taken away a good deal of American talent, as have foreign high-tech companies that are related to auto and truck production. It's no coincidence that the most innovative companies also reside in the most progressive areas of the country. And it's not about cost of living. The most tech talent often goes to the most expensive places to live.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    It's no coincidence that the most innovative companies also reside in the most progressive areas of the country. And it's not about cost of living. The most tech talent often goes to the most expensive places to live.

    Prime example is Silicon Valley, California .
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Carboy, I think you either just like to goad people, or you are someone who doesn't like America

    I am as American as any of you here. I just dislike the provincial jingoism and flag waving patriotism which is more famous about the average American.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    You can't market 'green', or even play in that game, if you don't believe there's a problem and a solution for it.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Clean diesel has always meant cleaner then the diesels of the two decades ago, smelly, sooty and noisy. TDI engines were extremely superior to the older diesels except they could not pass the "rigged" EPA emissions standards which no other country in world is willing to follow. Not China , not even Europe.
    If you consider Europeans as stupid then think of the Freedom Fries and think who got us into the Gulf War mess and the destruction of Iraq /Libya/ Afghanistan and the consequences we are facing now and who is the main supporter of the feudal oligarchy in Saudi Arabia where women are worshiped and respected like the feminists in the USA : :p
    I am an American but I still think Europeans are smarter then "us ". B)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Clean diesel was marketed as being cleaner than gas engines. The claims were based on low emissions (especially carbon dioxide) and the fact that they burned less fuel than a similar gasser model.

    They are batting 500.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,704
    Uh, no. "Clean Diesel", as used by VW to sell cars, meant "clean as other cars" to many people. Buyers under 40 have little memory of those old, stinky diesels. Stating a recent VW is better than a 1980 Rabbit diesel is like saying a 1990 gasser is cleaner than a 1960 gasser - so what? ALL forms of pollution are under heavy scrutiny now - dry cleaners, barbecue shops in Austin, everything. So stating the violating cars are much better than ancient smokers means nothing.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    stever said:

    Clean diesel was marketed as being cleaner than gas engines. The claims were based on low emissions (especially carbon dioxide) and the fact that they burned less fuel than a similar gasser model.

    .

    And that claim is genuine. Who cares about NOX emissions from TDI engines until you tell me how much NOX is emitted by "other" diesels in commercial, marine and industrial applications. Until then I consider it a witch hunt against VW and they have a right to show their pinky at the US agencies.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    I thought it was a lie back in '08 or '09 and still do. Just more corporate greenwashing, this time by VW.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Does what something means to people matter more than the intent of the creator? People can interpret things as they wish, that's not the fault of the person making the statement. I never saw "clean diesel" as more than an attempt to get people thinking differently about diesel, that modern diesels aren't old hippy VWs or fume belching trucks (who lobby their way out of accountability). No reasonable person would believe any form of transport is really "clean", although they might like to delude themselves into such an idea.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Right about the "clean diesel" claim. I think only hybrid fans would think it meant they were actually clean as in spotless, as they believe hybrids and EVs are spotless.

    Wait for Europe in 50 years, you might rethink that.
    carboy21 said:

    Clean diesel has always meant cleaner then the diesels of the two decades ago, smelly, sooty and noisy. TDI engines were extremely superior to the older diesels except they could not pass the "rigged" EPA emissions standards which no other country in world is willing to follow. Not China , not even Europe.
    If you consider Europeans as stupid then think of the Freedom Fries and think who got us into the Gulf War mess and the destruction of Iraq /Libya/ Afghanistan and the consequences we are facing now and who is the main supporter of the feudal oligarchy in Saudi Arabia where women are worshiped and respected like the feminists in the USA : :p
    I am an American but I still think Europeans are smarter then "us ". B)

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It's easy for Europe. They get a big advantage with us underwriting their defense needs. I think all this jingoism and xenophobia is just a cycle, led by so many losers in politics. It will likely move on at some point. If not, we'll know when the real downturn of America occurs because it will probably coincide with foreign students no longer trying to get into our universities. Right now, the competition is still huge, so I don't think the US is as bad as some make it out to be.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited January 2016
    Have diesels overcome their cold weather issues? Otherwise, they are not a good fit for a large swath of North America's climate. I don't drive enough miles per year to see how the diesel premium would ever pay for itself though.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, it's pretty rare that you hear about gelling issues any more. I think it's pretty common to use the block heaters though.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    It's easy for Europe. They get a big advantage with us underwriting their defense needs.

    Actually its a bogeyman created by the cold war mentality of the USA and Soviet Union. Now if only USA and Russia stop their saber rattling and expansionist policies in Europe, especially NATO trying to gobble up all the former Eastern block Nations and reaching the borders of Russia, then there would be no need for all those troops in Western Europe.
    It is the Military Industrial Complex which creates the bogeyman to keep the defense sector booming and the troops stationed in Germany and other NATO countries.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    That stash of military feeds the German economy pretty nicely while protecting their country.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    That stash of military feeds the German economy pretty nicely while protecting their country.

    Typical American Jingoism lol !
    Their GDP is $3.8 Trillion. Highest in Europe and fifth in the World.
    They bankroll the whole EU in case you are not aware of it B)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    edited January 2016
    If it wasn't for NATO, Stalputin would be abusing and repressing the old Eastern Bloc nations just as he does at home. Nobody was better off in the Soviet sphere. Those who adore Britain and its opinions of America should look back at Limeyland, who declared war in the name of Poland and Czech et al, then sat back and grinned as Stalin stomped them into the ground. Britain should be paying for as much as the US. And I won't even get started about what it wrought in the Middle East. But let's complain about the US, yeah.

    The US presence doesn't subsidize the German economy in a significant raw dollar sense, but it definitely enables Germany to worry a lot less about defense issues. The Germans aren't going to ask the Murkans to leave in our lifetimes. As future issues due to stupid demographic policy develop on the European continent, they will likely tacitly ask for the presence to remain.

    And now to move on from the goader who I think was brainwashed in Blighty - no, VW will not overtake Toyota in the near future. Momentum has been slowed.
    carboy21 said:

    It's easy for Europe. They get a big advantage with us underwriting their defense needs.

    Actually its a bogeyman created by the cold war mentality of the USA and Soviet Union. Now if only USA and Russia stop their saber rattling and expansionist policies in Europe, especially NATO trying to gobble up all the former Eastern block Nations and reaching the borders of Russia, then there would be no need for all those troops in Western Europe.
    It is the Military Industrial Complex which creates the bogeyman to keep the defense sector booming and the troops stationed in Germany and other NATO countries.

  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    And now to move on from the goader who I think was brainwashed in Blighty


    I got the opportunity to view the World without the beer goggles of American Jingoism . B)
    Only provincial and poorly educated people get brainwashed ;)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I noticed at times that some of your spelling is British (or India). The Brits always seem to look down on the US a bit. Don't know if it's envy or just they think we are still a colony ;) However, the Brits have always been good allies and friends, so god bless the queen.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Meanwhile, back at the ranch.

    Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

    A. Not likely for a few years at least. Toyota may mess up or GM may mess up, but both are coming off mess-ups so it's VW's turn for a while.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Personally, I think chasing #1 in sales or market share leads to foolishness. If you want to be #1, shoot for things like profitability, customer satisfaction and repeat sales, etc. Those things will keep your company in good shape.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    stever said:

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch.

    Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

    A. Not likely for a few years at least. Toyota may mess up or GM may mess up, but both are coming off mess-ups so it's VW's turn for a while.

    VW cannot overtake Toyota and GM to become #1 because the EPA and the CARB will ensure that they cannot .

    :p
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm talking worldwide sales btw.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Then how does the Toyota and GM mess ups in the USA have anything to do with worldwide sales of VW who messed up the EPA standards in the USA and not the Worldwide emission standards.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    See the first post. That's the topic. :)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Of c'mon carboy - the US can't control VW Corp world sales. Besides, VW has dealers, a plant and even some UAW involvement in America (UAW much to Senator Corker's chagrin I imagine). The mentions of Toyota and GM mess ups dealt with how a company deals with a major problem. VW is the one who right now appears to be escalating the issue rather than fixing it, and admit it or not, they appear to be heading for a major problem. Each country sets up their environmental laws and requirements. You either comply with them, or don't do business there. This was all the result of VW's decisions. We didn't beg them to do business here. They made that decision and the one to cheat. I think you may be starting to mix apples and oranges now.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    The topic was started 7 years ago and now just when VW was about to be #1 out came the big bad wolf and attacked the little red riding hood

    LOL !!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch.

    Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

    A. Not likely for a few years at least. Toyota may mess up or GM may mess up, but both are coming off mess-ups so it's VW's turn for a while.

    Actually GM is third place for 2015 behind VW. What is amazing is VW is still number 2 in the World with less than 5% of their sales to the US market.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2015/12/25/toyota-to-remain-worlds-largest-automaker/
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Now that's a stretch...

    Btw, GM has come out to their stockholders promising not to chase market share, and so far at least, they appear to be holding to it. Ford has a similar strategy. You are more than likely to get a non Detroit car when go to an airport rental counter. Near BK experiences a few years ago taught them the futility of chasing market share. It often leads to more harm than good, even if you win the sales crown - and that really applies to most business markets.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Each country sets up their environmental laws and requirements

    So one has to make different Engines for each country :worried:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    carboy21 said:

    Each country sets up their environmental laws and requirements

    So one has to make different Engines for each country :worried:

    It seems whenever Europe would raise the emissions standard the EPA/CARB would do them one better. Why no coordination seems counter productive. Europe was first to mandate ULSD at 30 PPM sulfur so we go to 15 PPM sulfur. I guess it is a game with the idiots in charge. It all ends up costing US the consumer more money. That is why I have very little respect for our Federal and CA state governments.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    carboy21 said:

    stever said:

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch.

    Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

    A. Not likely for a few years at least. Toyota may mess up or GM may mess up, but both are coming off mess-ups so it's VW's turn for a while.

    VW cannot overtake Toyota and GM to become #1 because the EPA and the CARB will ensure that they cannot .

    :p
    Apparently VW doesn't need the EPA's help in harming itself.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    carboy21 said:

    stever said:

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch.

    Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

    A. Not likely for a few years at least. Toyota may mess up or GM may mess up, but both are coming off mess-ups so it's VW's turn for a while.

    VW cannot overtake Toyota and GM to become #1 because the EPA and the CARB will ensure that they cannot .

    :p
    Apparently VW doesn't need the EPA's help in harming itself.
    With around 2% total sales in USA during 2015, VW is still No : 2 in the World in sales.
    If they walk out of USA, they will still be No: 2 in the world in 2016.
    What harm can they possibly do themselves besides paying $48 Billion in extortion ?
    Sell their dealerships and assembly plant to Hundai or KIA who are expanding rapidly in the USA.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The U.S. is the most powerful economy in the world. You don't just hand over market share, even in a mature market. Think of valuing market share in the USA in terms of the cost increase it. And once an automaker leaves the U.S., it's almost impossible to come back. Think you're going to see Renaults, Peugeots or Suzukis anytime soon? Even Mitsubishi knows to hang on.
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