Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

Mr_Shiftright

Well what about all the automakers who played fair? Why should someone else's polluting cars be allowed on the road when you paid for a cleaner vehicle?

fintail

Played fair, or just didn't get held accountable?

I don't see all the vehicles with fatal design flaws, either via accident or wanton negligence, being crushed. At the least, the offenders could be exported. All of the bleeding heart one worlders should know of the economic benefit said vehicles could provide in developing areas.

Mr_Shiftright

You can't run non-conforming vehicles on U.S. roads. What's so hard about accepting that? And letting other countries' people choke on the pollution doesn't seem fair either.

Junking polluting cars is probably a lot cheaper than making dirty air clean again.

Perhaps the cars can be patched up and won't be junked. We don't know yet.

hpmctorque

A component of the settlement is that VW will contribute to carbon reducing environmental causes, which is an offset to the additional pollution of its diesels. What I'm saying is that this, and the environmental damage mentioned in the Automotive News quote, compensates for the additional pollution of VW diesels.

By the time these diesels are crushed, their life expectancy will have been considerably reduced. Eventually, through wear and tear and accidents, they'll all be off the road. In the meantime those used VWs would be good values for consumers on budgets.

Finally. VW will be made to pay a very stiff price for breaking the rules. I'm confident they will never knowingly break the rules again. There's little additional financial penalty to VW to be gained by crushing the cars, but there's harm to consumers.

As with the "cash for clunkers" program, I believe there's minor environmental gain, when the environmental damage of replacing vehicles and crushing them is considered. Consumers lose when useful assets are destroyed, and our politicians come out looking better than they deserve.

Mr_Shiftright

Non-conforming cars have been seized and crushed for decades. This is nothing new, not a new policy.

Besides, the crushed cars arent' landfill. They'll be recycled. Today's Toyota is tomorrow's Turkish teapot! (or tomorrow's Toyota once again---you never know).

fintail

Being tradition, especially by an arrogant, expensive, and untouchable public sector enforcement industry doesn't make it logical or defendable.

Nobody is advocating putting non-conforming cars on US roads, where is that being advocated. But crushing them, and producing the direct and indirect waste that comes with such acts, is very hard to defend, IMNSHO.

berri

I read that Germany itself is probably not going to fine VW. So they catch a break on their home turf. Detroit gets nailed by the government when they mess up, but I don't think Asian companies get hit at home. We seem to destroy our own interests in this country sometimes.

gagrice

The added pollution from the offending VW TDIs is negligible. Companies buy carbon credits all the time so they can pollute more. How do you think Tesla stays above water. They got what $93 million last year from the carbon credits paid by the other auto makers. Why don't they just calculate the pollution and charge a tax, rather than destroy good automobiles? I would be very surprised if the NOx from the 500,000 VWs is close to the NOx from one Coal generating plant. NOx was of so little concern, even CA does not test for it. They just believed the automakers. That is far less risky than believing a politician.

berri

It may not be the amount of pollution, but the lying.

Mr_Shiftright

Well if you don't think polluting cars should be on the road, what else are you going to do with them? VW doesn't want the legal liability and California certainly doesn't want the pollution. Maybe we should send all cars that fail smog tests to those parts of the country that don't like emissions regulations? That way everyone is happy?

VW wants to put this behind them, stuff in a steel drum and weld it shut. They don't want this ghost to keep rising up from the dead.

fintail

Export them. Even just south of the border, they'd be loved.

And yes, it's the lying (and temporarily fooling some very self-important people who found out about the lie due to research from a small school), not the pollution.

hpmctorque

berri said:

It may not be the amount of pollution, but the lying.

Excellent solution, gagrice. Simple too. Of course, that's why the regulators didn't take your recommendation

hpmctorque

gagrice said:

The added pollution from the offending VW TDIs is negligible. Companies buy carbon credits all the time so they can pollute more. How do you think Tesla stays above water. They got what $93 million last year from the carbon credits paid by the other auto makers. Why don't they just calculate the pollution and charge a tax, rather than destroy good automobiles? I would be very surprised if the NOx from the 500,000 VWs is close to the NOx from one Coal generating plant. NOx was of so little concern, even CA does not test for it. They just believed the automakers. That is far less risky than believing a politician.

Excellent solution, gagrice. Simple too. Of course, that's why the regulators didn't take your suggestion.

texases

It's the court, not the regulators, that require destruction.

Mr_Shiftright

Great PR for VW, eh?

"We ship all of our polluting cars to poorer countries without emissions regulations. Working for a better world at Volkswagen of North America".

fintail

That's how the greenie activists work, Don't mind the pollution as long as it is in someone else's backyard. It has worked for those who cashed in over the past few decades, why not for everyone else? I'll have a nice truckload of rare earths battery components and some other material made in most favored "partner" social and environmental abuse wonderlands, please.

And I suspect the cheater VWs are still worlds cleaner than the fleet in less developed countries, so it would be doing them a favor there, too. All automakers already have models for countries with less stringent regulations.

texases

Here's the solution: ship them to Germany! Then all VW has to do is install that Vornado thingy, then sell them! I KNOW the Germans will be happy with that...

Mr_Shiftright

It's not a technical problem. It's a corporate image problem, so it has to be solved in that context.

fintail

Lots of cars in Germany get exported to points east, and everyone in Europe and Russia seems to adore VWs - they could probably make something of it. Better than crushing the cars anyway.

Regarding courts vs regulators, isn't that like cops vs prosecutors, or cops vs prosecutors vs judges? Often on the same side, to say the least.

berri

I still look at this as a prime example of how other countries support their businesses, while the US craps on them. Germany doesn't nail VW, Asia doesn't nail their automakers, but Detroit is a US whipping post.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, in Asia they just execute them:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/chinese-billionaire-mining-tycoon-liu-han-is-executed-over-his-links-to-a-mafiastyle-gang-20150209-139w2z.html

As for Germany, the "crime" wasn't committed against them.

fintail

Well there's one. At least the ones who don't escape to the USA west coast to launder ill-gotten money in real estate after buying residency.

IIRC, Eurogreenies have claimed certain automakers have cheated there, too. To be fair, the punishment given by the US authorities to domestic automakers is a slap on the wrist compared to what those same authorities might give to others. And the other regions certainly prop up their industry more, and usually have less of a socio-economic chasm to show for it. We also like to scream about financial impropriety (hidden accounts for dirty money, etc) in Switzerland et al, while welcoming it here.

Mr_Shiftright

what are "eurogreenies"? Do these organizations have real names, so that we can understand what they are saying/doing?

fintail

In Germany, a leading group is DUH (Deutsche Umwelthilfe). IMO they appear to be the "for me not for thee" style of lobbyists.

Mr_Shiftright

not sure what that means. You mean like NIMBY?

fintail

When it comes to pollution, often, yes. Don't ask about the resources used in the manufacture and operation of EVs and hybrids.

Also, those who are entitled to live in a large detached house (often bought for nothing years ago) with a private car or two, you can live in a shoebox apartment and use your feet, or if lucky, have a bike. Also often the same group who cashed in on the past 40 years of asset appreciation and/or public sector rewards and will now cry about how minimum wages are too high, to heck with you, I got mine, buzz off.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the Germans do a better job of planning the future than we do.

berri

Sure do - they don't have the each quarter Wall Street focus over there. Plus, like Korea, the US is picking up a large share of their (and NATO) military cost which leaves more German money to play with.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's in return for being a human punching bag for Russia

Veering back on topic here, VW has obviously been staggered by all this but they have consistently shown that they can make cars that are more fun to drive than Toyotas and cars that have more "cred" than GM. Whether that will translate into future dominance in the marketplace-----hard to say.

berri

I may be a minority, but I think VW is in much better shape than portrayed in the media. They have a very strong upmarket strength with Audi and Porsche, and the profit margins that go along with that. GM and Ford would be even stronger if they had the same situation. They have a very strong dealer network outside of North America and don't rely on NA for much of their revenue and profit. The cost impact of VW will be off their financials within a couple of years. VW will likely get a boost from Brexit because the Asians have a lot of their European production in the UK. Finally, people have short memories. Explorer is doing just fine and so are GM pickup trucks.

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the Germans do a better job of planning the future than we do.

I think the million refugees kind of negate German good planning. As far as I can tell about 10 million VW TDIs are violating Euro emission standards. The solution pushed by Germany lower the standards for now.

gagrice

berri said:

I may be a minority, but I think VW is in much better shape than portrayed in the media. They have a very strong upmarket strength with Audi and Porsche, and the profit margins that go along with that. GM and Ford would be even stronger if they had the same situation. They have a very strong dealer network outside of North America and don't rely on NA for much of their revenue and profit. The cost impact of VW will be off their financials within a couple of years. VW will likely get a boost from Brexit because the Asians have a lot of their European production in the UK. Finally, people have short memories. Explorer is doing just fine and so are GM pickup trucks.

Just had my Touareg in for a voluntary recall yesterday. Talked at length with the sales manager. He said their sales were not as impacted as he thought they would be. Worst part is the TDIs being stored are going to be difficult to deal with. Tires rotting in the sun or going flat. Fluids getting old. And they are not allowed to ship them back to the factory in Mexico. He said surprisingly they did not sell a high percentage of diesels. Only a select few people realize the advantages they offer their owners. Oh, they topped off the Adblue and gave it a very good washing all for free. As good as any dealer relationship I have ever had.

Mr_Shiftright

gagrice said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the Germans do a better job of planning the future than we do.

I think the million refugees kind of negate German good planning. As far as I can tell about 10 million VW TDIs are violating Euro emission standards. The solution pushed by Germany lower the standards for now.

Planning for the future is not the same as "possessing a crystal ball".

fintail

Germans are good at planning in some ways. They sure did a good job shaking up the global premium/luxury car market starting about 40 years ago - turned the US scene on its head and ended up owning the British outright, while the Japanese had to copy to join the game. Also did a good job at finally achieving dominance over Europe - this time via economics rather than armies. Of course, their bleeding heart generation can/will undo it all.

I think VW was also able to plan ahead well enough to weather this storm, and will have healthy sales and profits in no time. The brand has cachet in so many markets.

Mr_Shiftright

I think their diesel product line is,, perhaps...maybe...mortally wounded in the U.S.

hpmctorque

Now emission problems for the corporate 3.0...

http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/carb-rejects-vws-fix-30-liter-diesels

berri

Personally, I think the biggest problem with diesel is the big price jump upfront for the engine.

Mr_Shiftright

Well in theory at least that premium price for the engine is supposed to translate into longer engine life--but for the average American that's somewhat irrelevant.

stever

Here's one take on VW and GM's respective crisis's and how the CEOs are managing them. Be nice if Toyota's gelling and air bag issues had been included.

Power Sheet: GM Put Volkswagen to Shame (Fortune)

The author seems to think that VW will be dragged down by Dieselgate for a long time, but my guess is that it'll mostly fade away in the US. You could argue that it mostly has already and we're just in the mop-up phase.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not over til it's over. When dieselgate first broke, I thought it would wipe out not only VW's diesel market in the US, but other manufacturers as well, and I'm still leaning towards seeing longterm ill effects fall upon Audi and Mercedes and Porsche too. Coupled with rising diesel prices and the upfront premium you pay for a diesel engine from the get-go, it doesn't look great for anybody putting diesel engines in passenger vehicles and SUVs. (except trucks of course).

texases

I doubt there's much longevity difference. Diesels are now BERY complex, just as bad as a gasser. I'm 

Mr_Shiftright

Well the blocks are stronger, if that matters.

gagrice

I don't think dieselgate has impacted diesel sales in the EU. VW is ready to launch their redesigned Amarok with only diesel options in September.

Prices for the new Amarok in Germany start at €25,720 net for the rear-wheel drive Trendline version with double cab, the V6 TDI and 120 kW (EU6, available from the second quarter of 2017), making them just €940 more expensive than the previous entry-level model with a with double cab and 103 kW TDI four-cylinder engine. The top-of-the-range Volkswagen Amarok Aventura with the V6 TDI and 165 kW engine, 4Motion all-wheel drive and 8-speed automatic transmission comes to €46,525 net and will be launched at the end of September 2016.

Makes the US competition look rather plain jane.

berri

Looks a bit like the new Honda Ridgeline, at least in this pic

stever

Hey @gagrice, ready for another LS400 in your garage?

fintail

Cloth interior LS is very rare. That was the base car and I'd wager is under 5% of sales, if not far less. I'd want to be in around 6K, I think. Significant car in the NA market, but not a collectible yet.

gagrice

stever said:

Hey @gagrice, ready for another LS400 in your garage?

That one looks mighty clean. Ours has no dings. I wonder if it would polish up that nice. It is silver with grey leather. There is some wear on the drivers seat. Right at 108k miles. I was thinking a collector might pay $5k for ours. Runs great, new tires and brakes in the last 10k miles.

Mr_Shiftright

And the hits keep on comin' for VW:

http://pbn.com/VW-sued-by-Mass-Md-NY-over-pollution-linked-to-diesel-cheating-device,115809

Mr_Shiftright

Why We Shouldn't Let the VW Scandal Kill Diesel Powertrains

stever

You can make a similar case for coal or nuclear, if you ignore the downstream costs, like fly ash mitigation or guarding poison for hundreds of years, if not more. And if you ignore the health affects. Diesel's not nearly there yet, even compared to gassers, much less EVs.

I still can't believe we're bussing school kids all over in diesel fueled buses.