BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

blueguydotcom · March 2004

How is the ride of the ZHP??

Rougher than a 330i but softer than an M3.

Is the exhaust much louder than w/o ZHP?

Pretty big difference, especially at WOT. Even around town there's a burble not found in the normal 3 series. I love it most of the time.

blackhawker · March 2004

Hey, hope y'all are kind enuf to help me, as i spin towards getting (leasing) my first bmw - 325i.

couple of things i could use opinions on:
1) In the premium package, are the seats "sports seats", or is this just on the sports package. The bmwusa site seems to indicate that the premium package seats are power "sports" seats, and i understand here that these are important, but do i get that in the premium package? Can i order the right sports seats separate?
2) Is it worth upgrading the stereo? does it make a difference worth 600 bucks. I don't want to put one in aftermarket cuz it's a lease.
3) Are the sports package wheels useless in snow? I live in a "all seasons climate" and need winter traction. The bigger wheels look better tho...are the basic wheels still pretty good driving, or do i lose something utterly special with the larger ones?
4) leather vs. leatherette: have dog and kids. Please advise it the leatherette is better option

These are some of my bigger questions to resolve by next week. If you could help me with some experienced advise, mucho grateful! Thanks!

nyccarguy · March 2004

A few answers to your queries:

1. The Sport Seats are not the same seats as the power seats in the Premium Package. As others have stated here on the board, you can get the Sport Seats as a stand alone option.

2. I can't comment on the BMW business vs. Harmon Kardon. Maybe someone else could chime in?

3. The Sport Package wheels themselves do fine in the snow. It is the Z rated High performance tires that come on the Sport Package Wheels that do not drive well in the snow. I see you live in DC and you could probably get away with keeping the High performance tires on year round. You could get a set of winter wheels & tires for the cold/snowy months. The cost of a second set of wheels and tires will offset the fact that you'll probably burn through at least one set of tires during your lease. The Sport Package is much more than wheels though. It consists of the Sport Seats, tighter and lowered (?) suspension... Drive a Sport Package and Non-Sport Package 325i back to back and see if you notice the difference for yourself.

4. Leather vs. Leatherette. Leather is nice, but BMW's leatherette is great. It will wear very well, especially with your dog and kids. Many on the board have the
'ette and are very pleased with it. It is also an extra $1450 in your pocket.

Are you looking to buy a stick or automatic 325i?

If you're leasing, remember to work the deal out to put "down" the minimum (1st payment, last payment, security) and don't make a capitalized cost reduction just to make your payments lower. Roll the taxes into your monthly payments as well.

scottlp · March 2004

I'm about to get a 330xi with the premium and cold weather pkgs. I'm going to special order it because I want the sports seat, but not the sports pkg since I don't like the steering wheel on the sports pkg (really where you have to place your hands on that steering wheel--it looks fine).

The reason I am writing is that I remember reading on line that there was a special order option that one should get if you were getting...I think he was talking about the 325i, but I assume it would be available on the 330xi as well. Alas I don't remember what the option was. I think it was described in a website of one of the posters of...it may have been this forum. This website had a DIY of something or other for the 325i and the recommendation to special order this option (which is not normally listed in the option lists).

If anyone has any other advice for someone about to buy a 330xi (aside from reading lots of the forum posts) that would be appreciated also.

Thanks for your time.

Scott

gordonwd · March 2004

My 325i started down the production line yesterday (3/17). My dealer had told me that it was typically about 30 days from the "In Production" status to when it arrives at the dealership (East coast port of entry). Does this sound about right from anyone else's experience? I'm trying to time when to put my A4 up for sale.

kyfdx · March 2004

1) as nyccarguy says, you can order sports seat as stand alone option, but I recommend the whole package. It is a good deal for $1400.

2) I have the HK, but I bought mine used, so I didn't have to make a value decision on it. It sounds better than the stock, but it will cost you $16-18 per month on your lease. I think I'd rather have a CD changer for the money, if I had to make a choice. But, if I was leasing, my choice would probably be neither.

3) Again, nyccarguy has it pegged.. it isn't the 17" wheels, it is the summer tires. You will HAVE to get winter tires. I put tires in the same stock sport package size on my wheels. 225/45-17 Goodyear Eagle Ultra-Grip GW-3 (not available from tirerack). We got two inches just this Monday (Cincinnati), and they work great!!

4) I have leather.. smells great... feels great.. I have a kid..no problems.. no dog, though.. I think if I was leasing and didn't have to worry about resale, I might get leatherette. Leather will cost you $35-40/mo.

Hope this helps,
kyfdx

blackhawker · March 2004

Thanks you kyfdx and nyccarguy...

decided here to do without the HK sound system and to get the sport package but get replacement tires for the wheels in winter. Great advice. Gray leather in a blue bimmer sounds so nice, but i'm going to ponder the leather-leatherette issue more cuz of the kids, take another look at the "issue" (*to have such issues in life!*)
Wish they had gray leatherette. The leatherette does look ok tho.

Remaining questions i have are xenon lights and heated seats. Are the xenon that much better and super-useful? Never had them on a car. Are they a "must"? And heated seats...how often do you guys use them, are they worth the bucks to have, or just a hassle or not real useful. It gets cold here in DC, sometimes real cold, but it's not Minnesota. Are they really that handy?

You guys are great for helping me out on this stuff...nothing like an unbiased, experienced perspective. The dealer, of course, thinks everything is a "must". Didn't even tell me about the sports tire wear and tear at 25K miles.
Thanks again!

tenet1 · March 2004

Can depend on where your 325 is Built. If in Germany then 4-5 weeks from production. If South Africa, then about 6-7 weeks since production.

tenet1 · March 2004

I live in DC and as you know it is very cold from October through March/April (has been for the last 2 years). Thats about 5-6 months of using heated seats. I think they are a must have, and I use mine all the time because leather gets pretty cold.

Xenons are a must have for me, but ofcourse the regualar lights will do. IMO they look great and illuminate the road really well, especially when the weather conditions are poor (rain, snow, etc.). did I mention that they look really great?

kyfdx · March 2004

You will never be sorry you got heated seats. The weather here is similar to DC, maybe a little colder. I had to have the Xenons and they are great, but not absolutely necessary.

I would get heated seats and xenons before leather, if I had to pick one or the other.. If you have to choose leatherette for a blue car, I'd definitely go with black.

regards,
kyfdx

tenet1 · March 2004

Xenons and HS before leather, and black if leatherette. But I have all three.

scottlp · March 2004

I was thinking of buying a 330xi with the sports seat as a stand alone option, and 2 different people my salesman talked to at BMW told him that the sports seat could not be purchased this way (at least for the 330xi).

Scott

memphis10 · March 2004

HK sucks
Sport Pkg is the best option but tire expenses are high
Leatherette is great but you have limited color options
Xenons look cool and are a shade better than normal halogens
Heated seats will reduce your sperm count. Get it if you don't have plans to have more kids.

scottlp · March 2004

If someone has done this, perhaps they can supply the option number?

bama60 · March 2004

gordonwd,

My 330i started production on Feb 9th. It arrived at my dealership on March 13th. I live in Alabama so my car came in via Charleston.

vkwheels · March 2004

I didn't get them & shoulda.

Crevels · March 2004

I just purchased a new '04 330 CIC and will be selling my CPO '02 330 Ci. Does anybody know if the CPO will transfer to the next owner? Also, does the original warranty / free maintenance transfer as well (I would assume that it would)? My '02 had an in-service date of 6/02 and only has 17K miles on it. I'm hoping that the remaining 1 year or 19K miles of free service would convey to the new owner and the extra 2 years /50K miles on the CPO would convey as well. Anybody know the answer. I couldn't find anything on the BMW website.

alibajalajaula · March 2004

Just bought one, on Monday. Imola red looks great!It is a more burnt red than the electric red, so it inspires fiery performance. Makes you think of Tazio Nuvolari and all those italian racing legends. I am sure you will like it when you see it. I've got 170 miles on the car and the ride to me is supple. The exhaust sound is almost as music to my ears. I even turn off the radio to enjoy it. Its a deep bass growl, but nothing offensive IMO. Already took a ramp at 90 (at 4 am,5th gear)and the grip of the 255/35ZR18s was awesome. The short stick allows you to move through your gears quickly and is pure joy. I got my ZHP with xenons , black leather, moonroof & heated seats,HK (std) plus a 6-CD changer the dealer retrieved from my 01'325i trade-in. You won't regret it.

kennynmd · March 2004

I live in the DC area and got both for my 325ci. The xenons are a must have. The heated seats...maybe. I have only used mine twice inthe few months during the wimter. My car is always parked in the garage. When it does get really cold, I have a remote start alarm system for my car so I just start it up a few minutes before I have to get in.

alibajalajaula · March 2004

Although cold weather is the primary reason for this option, its not the only one. I live in H-town. Back in 2001 my first bimmer, a 5 speed 325i came with this option. I took it. Over the years I grew accustomed to the soothing effect of the heat under your derriére and lower back, especially after a long days at work. It helped to relieve stress and it almost feels as if you had your own masseuse. I guess it boils down to personal preference, but once you get used to them, its difficult to give them up.

scottlp · March 2004

Is this an aftermarket product? Where did you get it, and is it easy to install, or did you have a dealer do it?

Thanks.

Scott

blackhawker · March 2004

Thanks all, helping me clarify my thoughts on the buy...and memphis, thanks for the note on the "added value" of the heated seats...will help me from having to move into station wagon territory. Didn't realize a bmw 325 could be a valuable tool in family planning. :~)

scottlp · March 2004

BMWNA confirms that the sports seat is available as a stand alone option, option # 481.

kyfdx · March 2004

It all transfers to the new owner...

Regards,
kyfdx

kyfdx · March 2004

If you aren't making strict value judgements.. I think all the options we've mentioned are worthwhile... I have premium, sport, heated seats, HK, xenons, leather, metallic paint, fold down reat seats, steptronic (for the wife). I think I have everything but Nav, PDC, and the headlight washers that come with the cold weather package. When I was shopping for this used car, the only thing that wasn't a deal breaker was the HK and the fold down seats. I wouldn't have done without any of the other options.

On another note.. In my earlier post, when I was putting a monthly lease cost on the options.. cut those numbers by about 60%.. I wasn't taking into account the higher residual values of the cars with those options.

regards,
kyfdx

P.S.: memphis.. thanks.. I'll tell the wife she can quit taking the pill. LOL

kennynmd · March 2004

it is an aftermarket product. My brother owns a car audio shop and he installed it for me. It is actually an alarm with a built in remote start and paging feature. From what I heard through him it is more difficult to install than a basic alarm. The main thing is to get the alarm to read the chip in the key to tell it to start.

Crevels · March 2004

Thanks for the info. Now to just find the new owner....

tomalexm · March 2004

I have an (e46) 328ci, and am looking for a xenon conversion. Does anybody have any experience or recommendations for this? Thanks.

kyfdx · March 2004

Do a google search for forums with your model number (E46). I can't link them here, but there are lots of guys in that forum that mod their car. That would be the best place for that info.

regards,
kyfdx

blueguydotcom · March 2004

Yikes.

drmp · March 2004

Anybody tried it? I am very much interested about this F-1 style transmission. It says it has same 0-60 figures as the Manual tranny on the 325i models.

kennynmd · March 2004

I don't know anyone who tried it, but I heard that if you do aftermarket xenons you have to get the computer in the car reprogrammed somehow. The reason I heard is because the xenons are really low voltage compared to halogens and the computer will keep on believing that something is wrong with the lights

blackhawker · March 2004

Just got back from the BMW dealership, took another drive and comparison of models....thanks to all for the great advice on this board, helped a lot.

Here's my final fate:
325xi. (decided that i have kids riding on the wheels, need the winter grip)
Manual.
Mystic blue, with black leatherette. (The leatherette really is pretty impressive...outside of a Very subtle better softness and the leather smell (that event. goes away), the leather is almost indistiguishable from the 'ette. Figure the 'ette cleans better for the dog's dirty feet)
Sports package. You guys made the convincing case. (will get winter treads this fall for the snow, after i burn the curves in the summer)
Xenons and cold weather package. (one way or the other, the bimmer's gonna light a fire under my [non-permissible content removed])

Dealer is trying to convince me on power seats too, still dangling on that. Maybe.

Hoping that the xi is as satisfying in performance as the regular i version, not too much a compromise on "driving satisfaction".

BTW, saw the 2005 3 series photo glimpse...man, i like the 2004 styling better, glad i'm getting it before its gone. The 2005 design looks kinda rounder, like a vw.

Thanks,all!
Blackhawker

kyfdx · March 2004

I'm pretty sure you still get all-season tires on the 325xi sport package.. You might not see a need for winter tires/wheels with all wheel drive and all-season tires. If its an either/or thing, you could just get heated seats, foregoing the fold down seats and headlight washers from the cold weather package.. That would pay for power seats. No sunroof?

It sounds great.. good luck.
kyfdx

erickpl · March 2004

I have the 325xi as well.

Yes you get All Seasons. Mine came with Michelins (back in 2002). I have Pilot Sport A/S on there now.

Keep in mind for the xi sport package is mainly cosmetic. You get the sport steering wheel, seats and the 20 spoke wheels. There is no change in the suspension for the sport package. I wish it was a bit stiffer, but I've no real complaints about it.

My xi is at:
http://community.webshots.com/user/skimblz_
CWP, SP, 1/2 PP, tint, XM satellite

If your spouse is significantly taller/shorter than you, I would suggest the power seats with memory. I'm 5'11". My wife is 5'1" and we are ALWAYS adjusting the seat up/down, front/back, tilt, knee bolster extension. EVERYTHING changes between me and her. VERY much worth it and it is the one thing I really wish I had on this car (besides stiffer suspension).

-Paul

blackhawker · March 2004

kyfdx, yes - a sunroof too, forgot to add that's on the list as well. Power sunroof = essential.

Sounds like the power seats are a good addition too. Guess i'll probably pony up for them.

Thanks for the heads up on the xi sport package - so the suspension is not the true sports version, but i do get all season tires? Well, that'll probably be ok, a compromise i can probably live with...save me a grand or so on the winter tire change, and still, the wheels will look great with the 20 spokers, and i get the seats. Would prefer the true sports suspension with a manual, but the overall mix is good one.

I hear (from the dealer) the xi in general handles a bit "heavier" than the i version. I'm going back to go test drive both back to back, just to satisfy curiousity that it's not way much different, tho i'm committed to a xi in any case.

Particularly good advice on this board is the sports seats recommend...don't leave home without 'em, they're just so much better, sit in both and its obvious.

You guys are a great check on "dealer-think". Thanks.

kyfdx · March 2004

You don't get the suspension, but you get 17" wheels, sport seats, and the sport steering wheel.. It is well worth it, even without the suspension... It almost pays for itself in not having to get winter tires (assuming you aren't in Buffalo). Heck, the stock 325i is a great handling car even on 16" all-seasons and no sport suspension. You won't be disappointed.

regards,
kyfdx

erickpl · March 2004

I forgot the 17" wheels.

As for riding 'heavier' I can't really address that. I have had a few 325i's as loaners when getting service, but I can't say as it feels much different.

I truly love how my xi drives and am looking forward to my high speed run to Las Vegas on Thursday up I-15.

-Paul

nyccarguy · March 2004

I'm sure you'll be happy with your 325Xi. That Mystic Blue is a gorgeous color! You mentioned that the All Season tires will save you "a grand or so" on a winter tire change.

You're actually paying more for the Xi. with a base price of $30,545 (incl destination), the 325Xi is $1750 more than a base 325i ($28,795). The difference comes out to $1450 if you configure a 325i with Metallic Paint, Sunroof, Sport Package, Power Seats, and Xenons (as you want your Xi). The $1450 will easily pay for a good set of snow tires and you'll enjoy the car more in the Spring/Summer/Fall. You said you were from DC right(?), you only get a few snowfalls a year and maybe one big snowstorm (that's why all your neighbors have SUVs, right?). For every bad winter you have, there are 5 mild ones (like here in NY). The xi weighs over 200 lbs more. It is still a BMW and will handle well and brake well, but in a situation when you need to stop abruptly or swerve to avoid something in the inclement weather, every pound counts. That 200 lbs makes a big difference. The Snow tires coupled with BMW's excellent DSC (Dymanic Stability Control) which includes All Season Traction (BMW speak for Traction Control) will do you a lot more good than the AWD with All Season Tires.

Go and drive a 325i with a Sport Package and a 325Xi how you want it equipped back to back. Only you can decide what the best option is for you.

muzzy325i · March 2004

The 325i with DSC/TC will handle very well in the snow. I live in the Chicago area, and in the three years that I have owned mine (325i 5SP, stock 16in rims), I have only need to drive through snow maybe 20-25 times. I drive it every day (70K miles in 3 years) I was amazed how well it does in the snow with just all seasons, never had snow tires. You do have an issue with snow drifts, but that is a clearance issue, and hills, not that you can find any in Chicago Land anyway. The manual helps with 2nd gear launches but I was very happy with just the 325i in the snow and very, very happy when the roads are clean. My 330i SP/SMG that is currently awaiting transport may be a bit different when the white stuff falls this winter. Either way its a great car and Sports Seats are a must, I do not have them in my current car but I have driven with them in other cars and I don't know how I lived with out them (I'm 6'5'' and the thigh support would have done wonders over the last 70K miles)

gordonwd · March 2004

I don't have my 325i yet (status: In Production), but when I was thinking about it in January we had just gotten two or three major snowfalls here in the Detroit area and I was already planning on what type of wheels & snow tires to get next fall. Well, looking back now on our winter (that was also the last big snowfall!) there were only two or three days out of the whole season where I probably would have really appreciated the snow tires. In fact, I've been driving an A4 Quattro since '98 and in all that time there have only been about a half dozen times where I though that the AWD was a significant advantage (although it is fun to out-drag a FWD or RWD car in the rain).

So the bottom line is that I will go thru at least one winter with the all-seasons and see how it goes. When the OEM tires are worn out, if I think that snows are worth it, I'll probably put a set of them on the original 16" wheels and then move up to a new set of 17" wheels & tires for summer driving.

blackhawker · March 2004

Some very good input here on the 325, AWD with all seasons ("mud and snow tires") vs. RWD with snow tires. Looks like it's not an open and shut case in either direction, and depends upon your circumstances. I looked up on Car and Driver a good article they had on a snow/ice test in this regard...1999 article titled "What Price Traction". Seemed pretty thorough, tho didn't specifically test bimmers (Audi and Benz tested)

The conclusion i came away from reading was much as nyccarguy said earlier:
a) AWD much better at climbing hills
b) AWD better from a standing start/acceleration
c) RWD with snows much better at braking
d) RWD with snows better at handling

Howver, couple things: when do you see cars in most trouble in snow? Usually climbing hills, that's when the real stall happens...and trying to get started from a standing stop, and spinning out. These are probably the two biggest snow challenges, and AWD prevails there. The RWD didin't even get up the 30 degree incline at all, had trouble at 15 degree hill...not that steep, and likely at some point you'll be going up such a hill in snow if you're in an area where it snows. As for handling and braking, while obviously important, usually in serious snow you're not at burning speed where you are not being careful and can't allow for extra braking room. I think in snow i'd prefer the grip and reliability of getting going if i had to make that "devil's choice". Tho also, good driving skills would compensate with RWD with snows. But why have to white-knuckle it every time it snows?

Finally, a big deal for those who, like me, have winters where you can expect some snow but mostly dry, cold (woudl spring please come!) weather ...snow tires handle exceptionally poorly (according to C&D) in dry conditions, with a huge loss of performance. All the advantages you get in snow itself with snow tires you lose more in dry conditions with snow tires. So the AWD is probably best for a place like DC then, that's my thinking.

It's true that the extra weight (200 lbs) of AWD may be a drag during summer months tho...so in any case, it's a devils choice. Unless you expect constant heavy snow, guess you have to make a concious choice on year round consistency or better spring/summer performance.

I am going to take nyccarguys' suggestion and drive the xi and i back to back, to see whether there is such a noticeable drop in dry weather performance that i'd be really bummed.

BTW, you should see these people in DC drive in snow and icy conditions...people in this town who grew up in fair weather cities and countries...who brake on hills with ice! With no apparent reason other than freaking out. AAARGH! It kills me when i see those brake lights go on when they're on a hill. It's like the skiing lesson..."keep the momentum people, you more in control moving than getting still".

mark_325i · March 2004

I have an 03 325i -- not an XI. IMO, AWD is one of those things that advertisers have convinced us that we need. We had a particularly snowy winter here in the northeast, and my car has been rock solid in the snow, slush and ice. I outfitted it with a full set of Dunlop Wintersport M3 tires and it feels extremely secure in the bad stuff. The BMW is so perfectly balanced that AWD is unnecessary, and if the weather is so bad that one would absolutely have to have 4WD or AWD or get going, well, then, it is best to stay home (one still has to worry about the other drivers out there, you know).

For example, I traveled from Long Island to Vermont about a week ago. I was heading home through a storm that ultimately dumped from a foot of snow up there to about 6 inches on Long Island. I got onto 91 South and did not even go one exit when I came upon my first wreck. The roads were piling up with snow and slush. I seriously thought that I would have to find a place to spend the night, but I kept chugging along. The first 10 or so vehicles off the road were either trucks (semis and delivery) and SUVs. The SUV drivers that passed me seemed to forget the laws of physics, and I saw several near spin outs when they went out to pass and hit the slush and snow that was out of the tracks. My BMW was very secure in this crap -- in fact, I hardly EVER saw the DSC light come on.
That ride made me totally happy with my purchase -- the car is a blast to drive in the good stuff, and it is not dragging around several hundred pounds of performance-and-gas-sucking AWD hardware around for no reason. It is truly an all-weather car. Of course, winter tires are a must -- AWD or not.

mark_325i · March 2004

Winter tires do not have to be lousy to drive on. Check out the reviews on Tirerack for the Dunlops -- many cannot tell the difference between having them on the car or regular all-seasons. The M3s are speed rated, and the car rides and handles great in the dry. There was no compromise, IMO.

The winter tires mounted on a set of BMW alloys that I bought from a BMW dealer thru ebay cost me $1100 total (4 tires + 4 wheels). It takes about a half-hour to do the changeover twice a year.

div2 · March 2004

RWD vs. AWD: My wife drives an E39 528iA. I swap the OEM all seasons for Arctic Alpins on or about 12/1 each year(@30 minutes of very moderate labor). Now that the OEM tires are finally shot, the summer rims get Kumho MXs(WOOHOO!). I did the same thing on her previous E36. The Arctic Alpins handled very well compared to the OEM all-seasons in both cases. I seriously doubt that you will notice a "huge" difference. As for snow capability, my driveway is @2600 feet of hilly and winding gravel road. When winter hits the 528i has no problems until the snow depth reaches 8-10 inches, in which case we take the Sahara. Me, I'd go RWD and use the money you save to fit dedicated summer and winter tires as appropriate.

Options-I take a minimalist approach when it comes to options. If an option doesn't significantly increase vehicle performance or driver/passenger comfort then I don't want it. So, no sunroof or power seats for me. Heated sports seats, OTOH, are must haves. Leather? nope. Xenons? Yep. Resale value? I don't care about no stinkin' resale value-I keep my Bimmers for at least 5-8 years and/or 125K miles. That said, everyone has their own philosophy, and the only person you need to please is you.

shark715 · March 2004

I've been shopping for a 330xi for my wife. The options combination we want is unusual, so it appears obvious that I will never find the car we want in stock at a dealer. Each dealer that I've visited has pushed me hard towards buying a car on the lot rather than factory ordering one. Of course they want to sell me a car TODAY rather than months from now. I've heard all kinds of excuses, but I'm going to push the issue. Can anyone tell me about their experiences factory ordering a 3 series? How long did the dealer tell you it would take from ordering to delivery, and how long did it actually take? I'm in New Jersey if it makes any difference versus other parts of the country. Any problem getting the options exactly as ordered? Thanks in advance for your help.

tenet1 · March 2004

Go ahead and order your car. I did just like many others on this forum. I read somewhere that BMW has more pre-sold cars than any manufacturer.

The process is simple.
1. Determine what you want (options)
2. Negotiate a price with the dealer and get it in writing. At this point you may have to put down a $500 "good faith" deposit which is refundable
3. Dealer will assign you a car from his/her allocation. Sometimes a car about to go into production can be modified to meet you specs, so unless the dealer is really sold out, he/she can customize a car for you that will be built in the next 2-3 weeks or so. At this point the dealer will give you a production number so you can begin to track your car.
4. from production you can expect 4-5 weeks on the ship to the VPC in NJ and then another 2 days to your dealer

It can be a long process but it only adds to the BMW thrill. In my case the dealer found the exact car i wanted allocated to another dealer and they did a swap while the car was being built. All I needed to do was wait fot the shipping.

jimbres · March 2004

I went the factory order route 3 years ago because no one in the NY metro area (I'm on LI) had a 330i 5-spd in stock. I placed my order in early April, & my sales rep told me that I could expect to take delivery in late July - early August of that year (2001). As it happened, my car arrived in late June. Because my order was for a "hard to sell" (dealer's words) stick, I was asked for a 10% deposit.

Waiting for 12 weeks was a tough, character-building experience, but I'm glad I did it because I got exactly the color & options I wanted. My only regret is that I didn't take advantage of European delivery. I'll do that the next time.

mschukar · March 2004

I had to post regarding the discussion on AWD vs. winter tires:

Ive got an 02 325i with SP. Ive driven through two Wisconsin winters on Dunlop winter tires & steel rims. My car handles the snows here with no problems.

I would not hesitate to recommend this option for someone in the Midwest. Winter tires and rims cost half as much as AWD initially and AWD costs you a mile or two per gallon all year round. The extra weight, higher CG and inability to use summer tires all hurt handling.

OTOH, Im hesitant to put on my summer tires until April-I end up suffering through a few more weeks of marginal handling than I would like to.

I also believe that AWD gives a false sense of security; when I drive in poor weather, Ill occasionally goose it to see if theres any lose of traction or leaving a stop I notice the lack of traction. I adjust my driving accordingly. With AWD, you feel like you have more traction than with RWD. I would prefer to drive with less confidence and more caution to suit the road condition.

In regard to some comments:

However, couple things: when do you see cars in most trouble in snow? Usually climbing hills, that's when the real stall happens

In my opinion, a stall is pretty benign, while not being able to stop or handle a curve could result in a trip to the body shop or worse. Ive never been in an accident where I couldnt accelerate fast enough!

The RWD didin't even get up the 30 degree incline at all, had trouble at 15 degree hill...not that steep

Not that steep! 15 degrees is a 27% grade and 30 degrees is a 58% grade!! Most cars will probably never see anything steeper than 15% for short distances. The Alps that Lance Armstrong rides up while touring France, for example, rarely go over 15% grade (thats 15%, not 15 degrees).

snow tires handle exceptionally poorly (according to C&D) in dry conditions, with a huge loss of performance

I do notice a decline in performance, but its only for four months a year vs. AWD means a decline in performance all year. Of course a BMW with winter tires still handles better than most cars :-)

-murray

blackhawker · March 2004

Yes, you are right about the degree and grade...i got them mixed up, obviously didn't make the "grade" in the math, and since you've pointed it out,...yes, 58% grade is a steep indeed. However, the C&D article said the AWD handled it and the rwd with snows didn't. Tho yes, don't think i'll be grooving up any 58% grade in a snowstorm any time soon. Probably would check into a Motel 8 on the side of the road first.

Discussion here has opened up my thoughts tho, and now i'll be testing that i and xi back to back with more vigor. I've had front wheel drive cars in the recent past, and it's never been an issue with snow. Looking into high perf. 17 inch snows if i do go the rwd route.

C&D panned the snow tires on dry pavement, but i hear that a couple of brands of high performance snows are alnmost indistinguishable from all seasons on dry roads, as noted on this board. Anyone with input on the best snow tires for dry pavement winter conditions? After all, its four months or more that you gotta move on those things. Spending the dough on a bmw, why chince on the winter tires...i'd have an extra $1400 to work with from shaving off the awd package.

It does seem that the whole AWD craze that's happened in recent years is bit overblown in the marketing hype. Don't want to just get sucked down into that. But bimmers in particular have had a notorious "fishtailing" rep in snow. Maybe it's just bad buzz. It is true that winter driving is like 85% driver and 15% car.

Probably the biggest challenge in snow(outside of sitting there having someone crash into you) is getting started...climbing out of that suddenly frozen-again set of ruts that you had to park in, having to stop and then finding your wheels spinning in place like they're in air. The AWD is certainly an aid in getting moving. Whether that happens enuf to warrant the cost is the question. The RWD requires more diligence in winter driving (and parking), but maybe that's not such a bad thing to reinforce on yourself anyway. Having one's own car not crash into someone else's has more to do, imho, with driving at a consistent, "safe-enuf" speed, with safe distance between cars than anything to do with awd, and snow tires make the big diff (rwd or awd) in braking there.

So here i am, now leaning back towards the RWD. The 1400 saved off the AWD pays for the snow tires, and i get true sports supension for my money. Final decisions, final decisions...at least i know i'm gonna get a great car, no matter what.

Thanks,
Blackhawker

BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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