Mercedes-Benz C-Class Sedans

mbnut1 · May 2001

One possible explanation for why a batch of tires are more suceptable to flat spotting that other would be their inflation level. I have learned from these boards that manufactures often over inflate their tires until the car is delivered to the customer. The purpose of the over inflation is to prevent / minimize the flat spotting that occurs while the car is being transported and sitting on lots. Where this has come up on these boards is people will complain about the harsh ride of the car when they take delivery of it only to find out that the dealer failed to lower the tire pressure to it's proper level.

Jcrt - Facinating explanation of the S Class vibration saga. A local high performance alignment shop tells of a tale of discussing the issue with a Mercedes engineer who reportedly told him that the problem was that the car wasn't designed to drive at U.S speed limits. The shop claimed that fixed the problem by modified the customer car's bushings. While it may be more urban legend than truth
it fits with your explanation.

jrct9454 · May 2001

Yeah, I've mentioned a couple of times that you have to be careful to check the tire pressures of a freshly delivered car, because it is not unusual for the pre-deliv inspection to have left the tires at "shipping pressure", which is upward of 45-50 psi.

MB has publicly recommended that you run the pressure up to this level on any car that you plan on not driving for a period longer than about a month. I prefer jacking the car at all four jack points, using those great, high-tech devices known as Wal-Mart floor jacks [$30 apiece at your friendly...], and do so after every drive when the car returns to our garage. [See, told you I had tricks no one else would want to use.] It takes about two minutes for jacking it up, and another minute to bring it down when we are ready to leave...no muss, no fuss, and no shakes. But we are retired, within walking distance to everything most people need, and thus the car can often sit for up to a week without moving. This is how I decided to deal with the issue...started this habit with our '94 C, as a matter of fact...

I once offered, with tongue only partially in cheek, to take on the job of "rotating the stock" of our local MB dealer. I would visit a couple of times a month, and find many cars that had not moved an inch for weeks at a time. These cars are almost guaranteed to have bricks for tires...but most customers never notice the sometimes subtle shakes that occur as a result.

nyca · May 2001

It's a 95 M3 with Michelin Pilots, and yes I keep them over-inflated during it's winter break in the garage. I have no flat spot problems, the tires are the originals with 18K miles on them. The handling on this car is razor sharp, you can drive the car over a stack of 3 or 4 quarters placed on the ground and feel the feedback in the steering wheel (one of the auto mags did this test a while back), so if it were vibrating I'd feel it.

I'm not saying your technical points are invalid, but when I see a post that says a service manager drove 8 brand new cars, all with different brand tires, off the lot and they all have a vibration, that either means that every C ever produced has one (I don't see posts from owners saying that, could they all just not be noticing it?) or there has been a batch of bad parts that has worked it's way into the production run causing this.

You've got a point about the driveshaft, maybe it's the brake rotors then, maybe they expand slightly when they warm up.

mleskovar · May 2001

jrct9454's explanation sure seems valid...when are they putting in the driveshaft? Now I'm real curious even though I don't notice the problem.

jrct9454 · May 2001

You actually reinforce my point about Michelins...and incidentally, the wider the contact patch [and it's very, very wide on an M3...very nice car, by the way] and the higher the air pressure, the less likely you are going to feel anything after the car has been sitting. This is because the fore-aft part of the contact patch is actually quite small at elevated pressures, and this is what you are feeling [or not] through the steering wheel. [In the case of the S-Class, that fore-aft contact patch was enormous because these were 225 section tires holding up nearly 2.5 tons of car]. I also should point out that the suspension details on an E36 M3 are just different enough from the W203 C that this alone can account for one car being more sensitive than the other.

At one time, partly to make a point with the sales guy at our MB dealer, and partly because he asked me for some help, I once drove [back to back, over a one month period] 4 W202 Cs and 3 W210 Es, all brand new cars on the lot. Each was driven a max of 10 miles over the same course, finishing with 5 miles of brand new asphalt that was smooth as glass. ALL of the Cs were still shaking to one degree or another after 10 miles, though each had improved from the start of the drive to the end. OEM tires were Goodyear and Contis. ALL of the Es were smooth by the time I was on the homeward leg back to the dealership...all on Michelin MXV4s. Coincidence? Maybe. As I said, I hesitate to diagnose problems on the internet...just trying to give you some more ammo to use when duking it out with the service advisors...

No, my friendly dealer was not giving away test drives that month. We had a conversation about pre-delivery quality control, and I was challenged to find defects in these cars as a test of their pre-delivery practices. All but one had one or more simple things that I picked up on that could have been caught in the detail shop...they got a free quality control audit, and I got a lot of interesting experience. It's nice to be retired and have the time for this kind of stuff. Don't know as I am as welcome there as I used to be, since I backed away from our C240 deal in Sept...of course they sold the car in hours to someone else, so no hard feelings, I hope.

nyca · May 2001

What happens to these cars during the boat trip from Europe? I believe they are actually strapped down to the deck of the ship to stop them from shifting. Do they just over inflate the tires to prevent this?

All this talk, I don't own this car (yet), but now I feel I need to test drive one again and be particularly sensitive to this. I can just see my future now: having to drive the equivalent of a warm up lap to heat up the tires when I first pull out of my driveway in the morning!

It will be interesting to see how this turns out....

raylaubu · May 2001

I bought the Glove cd changer from clairs for about $460(about $390 for cdchanger, $17 for wires, and $50 for the install kit which is just a metal rack).

Installing the kit is very easy but I couldn't find where to plug in the optical cable at all. Ask two dealer and they said one have to take out the glove compartment to do plug in the cable and use their computer to program the audio system. I thought Mercedes pre-wired the cd like BMW, but guess not.

I don't want to mess it up, so I scheduled an appointment for them to do it on June 2. They will charge me $95 an hour and will take about 1 1/2 hr or about $140.

jrct9454 · May 2001

Yes, the tires are inflated to over 50 psi before shipping, and are kept that way right to the point where they roll off the transporter at your friendly dealer. A smart dealership will keep them that way [as well as periodically moving the cars around the lot] right up to the hour that the car is delivered to its eventual new owner...unfortunately, some dealers kind of forget that last step. Others drop them to street pressures as part of prep, and that can have the consequence of a car sitting on the lot at 30 psi for weeks...with consequent flat-spotting.

It's a rare dealership that employs people in this part of the business that know or care much about these kinds of details. The techs are too busy to worry about it, and the lot people tend to be the newest employees and the lowest paid...not always, but often enough.

acco20 · May 2001

Sirus32, Is the dealer aware that the vibration stops after 15 or 20 min. of driving? An out of round or out of balance driveshaft can cause a vibration at a certain speed and maybe not be noticeable at other speeds, but I think it will always be there at the imperfect areas and not disappear. I think if the dealer knew it stops after some driving time he would not be thinking ,driveshaft. IMHO.

bubba3007 · May 2001

For what its worth, when my C240 was delivered I was thrilled with the ride but did think it was a little firm for a "luxury car". After a couple of weeks (Winter driving conditions!) I got around to checking the tires - 45PSI all around. After setting the cold pressure to specs the ride improved greatly. Didn't think anything more of it until the above discussion. Is this group great or what?

My car was delivered with Goodyears and they seem OK but past experience says that when its time for new tires Michelins will go on for sure. They may not be the highest performers but for all - round street use I haven't had better going back to the mid 50's.

Bubba

"... My friends all drive Porches, I must make AMENDS..." J. Joplin

michhala · May 2001

>Does the memory seat positions move when you >unlock the car door. I always have to put the >key in the ignition switch and then the seat
>moves into position.

rainers -- the seat moves back when you remove the key from the ignition switch and should stay in that position until the next time you insert the key in the ignition. I don't know for sure, but how far the seat goes back on exit might have to do with the positioning of the seat in memory. The memory may be moving the seat back relative to your wife's memory setting and not yours. The memory settings do not always work perfectly.

Miki

pk6 · May 2001

I'd urge anyone who's experiencing tire vibrations to get the fix or replacements asap. My unhappy experience 25 years ago in my then new Electra 225 with Firestone 500's where 1 blew up just as I was entering the Deas Tunnel leaving Vancouver and sent me careening in circles has since then made me a lot more sensitive to any shakes/shudders or vibrations. Fortunately it was very early on a Saturday morning and there wasn't any traffic. And you've never seen a car fixed and re-tired so fast as Firestone did on mine.
I even got a personal letter of apology from their head-office. I wouldn't buy another Firestone tire though except that my Ranger has those recalled models on them but not from the affected plant.

Hmm I got off the MB topic.. well my new
Michelin Energy MXV4 +'s I got last month on my C are holding up well. I don't have quite the confidence in them yet that I had with the stock Conti's it came with, but they ride fine and are somewhat quieter. They can't be any worse in snow I hope.. though I managed with the Conti's.

zmeenow · May 2001

as i said before... i let the guys that do it for a living install it completely. as to what they are charging you... seem sas if you have done 80% of the work... why is it still taking 1 1/2 hrs?

sirus32 · May 2001

Driving all day yesterday, the vibration never completely goes away. It just becomes less noticeable. I've told the dealer about the time it takes for the vibration to be less noticeable.

Over the past 1500 miles I've noticed the hotter it is outside the faster it becomes less noticeable. Which if it were the tires, the rubber warms up and removes the flat spot.

However, the month of April was colder than normal here. I took a road trip(500miles) during Easter and found the vibration was noticeable at anytime during the trip. Wouldn't constant driving warm up the tire no matter the outside temp?

Before I have the drive shaft installed, I'm going to ask the dealer to install H-rated(MXV4s) Michelins. If the vibrations goes away or only appears for a short time, then I know it was the OEM tires.

jrct9454 · May 2001

Do [or have done] a couple of things first:

Get it warmed up, say at least 20 miles; have the tech get it on the lift at the dealership while the tires are still warm; spin the front tires by hand while focusing on a fixed point; look for any deviation [it could just as easily be a HIGH spot on the tire as a LOW spot] greater than 1-1.5mm. OR...switch the rears to the front and see if it improves, but check them the same way was as above, first.

As I have repeated, this sounds like a classic tire problem to me, but flat-spotting is only one possiblity. Others include high spots, [in other words, the tire is just not round enough, period], an incipient internal failure [belt starting to lose adhesion to the carcass], or very rarely, lateral runout [wobble].

Be persistent with the techs - there is a tendency to tell you this kind of thing is all in your head, or "they all do that". I know, having been down this road more than once...

Be prepared for a big argument if you want them to replace the tires at their expense...in the past, I have eaten this cost. But I reiterate, in every case, throwing away in OEM tires in favor of Michelin touring tires always fixed my problems in this area. I will be extremely interested in how they go about diagnosing and eventually resolving the symptoms...please keep us up to date.

zmeenow · May 2001

OEM tires as opposed to touring tires??
please excuse my ignorance!educate me!
advantages and disadvantages?

thank you in advance!

mbnut1 · May 2001

Original Equipment Manufacturer

ralphh1 · May 2001

I picked up my 2001 c class yesterday. I purchased with c1,,c2,,,c4,,bose,,auto trans and command...
I have a 2500.00 alpine DVD nav system. The dvd is much faster and has much more detail than the command. I "wish" mercedes chose dvd versus cd..not completely disappointed just spoiled by the dvd nav..(p.s DVD Alpine nav is for sale 1500.00 only 1 year old).
The car is fantastic..delivered with 8 miles has 170..great ride..lots of fun..
Paint protection TSL system..499.00 has anyone heard or had product applied to vehicle?
Claims 5year guarantee against fade, oxidation without waxing..seems that most of todays paints will hold up anyhow? Any input would be greatly appreciated

rb15 · May 2001

I THINK I HAVE READ WHERE OTHERS HAVE HAD A PROBLEM WITH THEIR I CARS DRIFTING AROUND THE HIGHWAY AT SPEEDS OVER 60MPH---WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE ANY CROSS WINDS. THE DEALER SAYS THE ALIGNMENT IS JUST FINE--SUGGESTS NEW TIRES MIGHT HELP. HAS ANYONE FOUND A GOOD REMEDY FOR THIS?--OTHERWISE, IT IS A GREAT CAR IN JUST ABOUT EVERY WAY,BUT IT IS FATIGUING ON A LONG TRIP BECAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM.
I' LOOKING AT A SET OF MICHELIN PILOT XGT I TIRES AND WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF THERE IS ANY EXPERIENCE WITH THESE?

acco20 · May 2001

Sirus32...This problem is interesting to me. I am a fanatic for a steady,smooth, ride with no steering wheel shake and no seat vibrations. In my experience the only such problems I have had have been tire related. At one time my car pulled to the left at highway speeds. I had the tires rotated {both front to back] problem gone. Another time I had a vibration in the steering wheel at speeds around 55. This is almost always a sign of imperfect balance. I had the wheels high speed balanced and no improvement. On a whim I started to move the front wheels, one at a time, around the hub. In other words I took of the front left wheel, moved it around one sprocket and put it back on. On the second attempt the vibration was gone. I can not explain this but since then whenever things are not perfect I try this as a last resort and it has worked often. My local service station where I have this done was very leery at first... they have seen the results and now at least they don't think I am crazy any more. It probably has something to do with the fact the wheels are never really perfectly balanced and the hub on the car can also be slightly out. Anyway I wanted to mention these things to you. I hope your problem is solved soon.By the way...wheels can be balanced on the car. This should eliminate any balance problem with the hub but any time you rotate you have to do it again. good luck.

1950walt · May 2001

I have just ordered a 2002 C240 and after scanning this forum have two questions. 1:Is the 240 especially vulnerable to paint chipping or is this just some ones favorite topic. 2 My background is $20 oil changes at the local gas station, do you guys really drive all the way back to the dealer and pay $100 for an oil change? Please speak out while the deal is still reversible! Thanks

lperakis · May 2001

The paint chip issues has to do with many/most new cars made in the world regardless of maker: the new paints are more eco-friendly (lead-free) BUT they chip easily. It is a known issue with Benz, BMW and others. AS for the oil, Benz has switched it fleet to using Mobil 1 synthetic oil. It is not cheap and the 240 take 6 (?) quarts. Most quickie lubes do not offer it, BUT you can bring in your own oil and filter and let them do it for you if you don't want to spend the cost at your local MB dealership. You'd need to check with MB if you decide to NOT use Mobil 1 and what that means to your warranty. Quite frankly, oil changes every 7 to 10k miles is cheap insurance on keeping your engine happy.

I hope that helps.

jmsintx · May 2001

hope this helps

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/vibechart.htm

jmsintx · May 2001

oil changes for the 1st 4 yrs are included in the purchase price of your mb. paint chipping problems are no more frequent than on any other late model car.

p996 · May 2001

You get to hear the engine and see some smoking tires!!

Yes sir!!

Link is below

http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/9/9/996/

>

sirus32 · May 2001

I want to thank everyone for their input regarding my situation.

I'm going to dealer more educated than I was a week ago. Oh, and the tire vibration flow chart is great. Thanks jmsintx!

jrct9454 · May 2001

I was going to skip this technicality, but since it got brought up: what I wound up doing on my '94 C to smooth things out on the three tires I could use on the front, was to painstakingly experiment with each wheel on each hub position until I got the best combination, and then marked the hub and each wheel to note where they should be installed as I rotated the tires in use. This has AGAIN, nothing to do with balance, but with ROUNDNESS. What you are achieving by moving it around on the 5 possible lug positions is the best possible combination of the [typically] high spot of the tire/wheel with the low spot of the hub. Understand, we are talking generally 0.5 to 1.0 mm here, and yes, as noted above, there are those of us who can feel vibrations caused by variations that small. I regard this as a curse, not a blessing, and no one has offered to pay me to diagnose these problems for them, but I too can report that each of these situations has been improved or drastically reduced to acceptable levels by one of more of the techniques described in the past couple of dozen posts.

Sirus's problem is going to be that this kind of diagnosis takes time, attention to detail, and a level of patience that I am sorry to say is all too rare at the dealer level...which is why I usually attack the diagnosis myself, so I can go to them, point out the problem, and refuse to leave until they fix it. Most people simply cannot or will not, and certainly should not have to, do that much work on the problem before the tech does, but then I am a fanatic about cars and this is what passes for a hobby these days.

Again, good luck, S, and please report back...

John R in Calif

jrct9454 · May 2001

As noted above, OEM means any piece of equipment chosen by the manufacturer as "original equipment" for a given new model of car. There is, in this narrow case, not a distinction per se between OEM tires and touring tires...the Contis and Goodyears that are on the vast majority of W203 Cs are indeed classified, generically in the tire business, as "touring tires"...as distinct from performance tires, snow tires, etc.

HOWEVER: most new car makers merely specify what they want in the way of performance and wear and ride characteristics, and then use more than one [sometimes as many as four, in the case of the US-produced Camry] tire models on a given model of new car. I personally do not like this practice, because it is my extensive experience that NOTHING makes a bigger difference in how a car feels and behaves than the tire choice. MB has apparently decided to use Conti and Goodyears on the standard suspension cars, and I-don't-know-what on the sport suspension Cs [I've heard of both Michelin Pilots and Pirellis]. These tire choices may all meet the specs of Daimler Benz for this car, but each of them makes the car behave differently on the road for drivers as sensitive as I am. DB knows most people don't care and this kind of choice saves them big $ on the final bids for the tires for a given production run.

As a contrast, Honda/Acura [to take just one example, as there are others who follow this practice] tends to use one Michelin tire for each of their premium models [MXV4s, MXMs, XGTs depending on application]. The car nut magazines complain about these choices because they are rarely the tires for the ultimate "stick" that the buff books think they want in a car. For people like me who have to live with the car everyday for years, I prefer Michelin's quality control and general competence to some of the other choices that DB makes. In particular, both Conti and GY tend to use more nylon in their touring tires than Michelin, with the result [on the topic that we have beaten to death] that they are more prone to flat-spotting.

Guess who got his start as a car nut in the tire business? Yeah, at age 17 for the Firestone distributor in San Francisco in 1962...

benz747 · May 2001

NE body have NE idea about pricing for 2002 Models? I mean NE increase from 2001

jrct9454 · May 2001

Just a guess, but I would look for the usual modest increase in base price---probably no more than $500. But look for them to juggle the option packages...they always do, and in ways that typically wind up costing you more on the bottom line. Note that others have already pointed out the reduced level of standard equipment for the '02 C320, which effectively increases the already cavernous gap between the cost of a C240 and a C320.

To equip a C240 comparable to an '01 model, I would be surprised if you had an MSRP that varied more than $500-$700 for the '02...and you might get some of that back if you can wait for inventory to build up a little. By contrast, I would look for the '02 C320 to be at least $1k more expensive, to both help their profitability and move the market more toward the C240 [at least in the sedan line]. Just a guess...

bennetttv · May 2001

I went to a Mercedes Dealership & they told me that they don't negociate prices -- they only do MSRP -- have you ever heard of such a thing ?

ctic · May 2001

Tell them to wake up, they're dreaming.

MBUSA tried to make that official policy last year (I bought one at MSRP), but too many dealers are cheating. Right now you can get MLs at hundreds over invoice. There are people on this board buying C's under MSRP. It's supply and demand.

Just laugh in their face when they try to tell you that. Make it a contemptuous laugh.

nyca · May 2001

Why would they want to try and move the market to the 240? Currently, you basically pay $3900 more for the 3.2L engine (price of 320 less the options versus the 240). There's no way there is $3900 in cost between the two motors. The profit margin on the 320 is therefore much higher than the 240 by my reading.

Let's see what happens with 2002 MSRP, by deleting C1 from the 320, they might be trying to make the price spread less to encourage more people to pay $3900 for the motor upgrade.

Does MB use that engine from the C240 in any of there other cars, US or otherwise?

jamrock4 · May 2001

I agree with nyca; it makes no sense to move the market to the C240 when there is more profit to be made with the C320. The most intelligent move Mercedes could make is to reduce the price of the C320. Even if the price of the C320 were reduced by $1000, the profit margin per C320 is greater than the profit margin per C240. A lot of people would step up to the C320 including myself, and by increasing sales of the C320 they would generate more profit.

For those Mercedes officials monitoring this site would'nt it be great to sell more C320's than C240's? Think about it...

zmeenow · May 2001

the purchses below msrp seem to be far and few between..certainly not the the everyday situation.. with c's that is.(especially the 240)

rs64 · May 2001

In Southern Calif. you can pick up a C240 for $500 - $1000 over invoice.

Try www.liquidprice.com and get a few bids.

benz747 · May 2001

I tried the link www.liquidprice.com but unfortunately they do not serve OHIO where I stay -
I have also booked 2002 C 240 (MSRP) hopefully price remain the same, I will come to know about it in June though

I have seen Silver C280 (1999, 19 K Miles) plain CAR I mean not loaded with package, dealers last price for that car was 30 K before taxes and where I stay the taxes are 5.75 % and that makes CAR our of door approx 32 K and the brand new C 240 (Auto, Silver, Sun Roof) costs me $36 K

I offered dealer 30 K out of door and he REFUSED

I have no clue why one would pay 32 K for outdated model with less warranty remaining on the car against brand new C 240 for 4 K More with 4 years paid warranty, any thoughts ??????

diwc240 · May 2001

@ 3873 Miles; 8.5 quarts Mobil 1 Synthetic 15W50 (I supplied the oil). Labor = $24. Filter = $9.
Sales Tax NJ = $1.98 C 240 went in at 8:00 a.m. they had it back to me at 9:00 a.m. Because it was raining, they tested the wipers and replaced both rubber inserts (N/C warranty) as they said "wiper smears and leaves two lines uncleaned", I thought they were doing a fine job! oh well, guess it is even better now.
"Boy does that Synthetic feel smooth...= Happy V-6"

drew_ · May 2001

Don't miss the weekly MB Tuesdays chat at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10pm Eastern! All MB fans/enthusists/owners/potential owners are welcome to participate. Hope to see you there!

Click on the link below to enter the chat at the times above. Note that the link to the chat is always near the top of this page, just under the discussion topic title:

http://www.edmunds.com/chat/mercedeschat.html

Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

zmeenow · May 2001

more in line with the charges i had re oil change at Prestige Motors in Paramus.Its the individual dealers that are soaking cutomers not MB corperate

drew_ · May 2001

I just posted this in the C-class owner's club photo gallery. Check it out:
drew_ "MB C-Class Owners: Photo Gallery" May 22, 2001 11:50am

rogerr2 · May 2001

Hi guys, I am new to this board and am just amazed at the amount of knowledge and sharing that goes on here. Keep it up!

I am interested in a C240 2001 with Auto, C2, Metallic Paint. Invoice is 31545, MSRP is 33860. Dealer wants MSRP. I know some people on this board posted that you can find this car for 500 - 1000 over invoice. Where? In NY/NJ area, they do not want to talk about anything under MSRP for the C240 but are willing to discuss the C320 and the ML and the Es.
Would any folks that bought recently mind sharing / advising what price they paid recently and if the MSRP for this model is fair? Or should one wait for the 2002?

Thanks in advance.

benz747 · May 2001

I would go for 2002, as you are paying MSRP in any case (hopefully prices remain same) what wondering me is I have seen 2001 Per-Owned on dealers lot with 9K miles and they are charging little less than MSRP !!!!!!!! no LOGIC why one would go for a per-owned if the difference is not subtential ?????

zmeenow · May 2001

i agree... though it seems to be a great sign that the car is holding its value due to high demand.
I guess theres always a possibility of waiting a bit to see if the dealers "drop their drawers"a bit as the 2002 model yr gets closer and closer.The radio is already running ads promoting yr end prices on mb's

rs64 · May 2001

I paid invoice + $800 for mine 2 weeks ago. 2001 C240, auto w/ sport package. (See if you can get to the internet department or fleet mgr.)

ctic · May 2001

Who or what is the fleet manager? What does he do? People seem to be able to get good deals from this guy. So why isn't everyone getting their cars from him?

benz747 · May 2001

Are you sure they have commercials for year end discounts on C class ?
I have booked 2002 C 240, with C2 and Auto Tx (MSRP) the dealer only willing to throw CD Free !!

rogerr2 · May 2001

Hi RS64- you mentioned paying Invoice + 800 2 weeks ago. Was this in the North East? When you went in did they start with MSRP and bargain to your price?

Thanks in advance

zmeenow · May 2001

they didnt mention the c class specifically,no.but as it gets closer to yr end.. and if theres inventory... especially in harder to sell colors......

rs64 · May 2001

Rogerr2, this was in Southern California.

ctic, you are kidding, right?

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