Hyundai Elantra 5-door

gt_fan · October 2002

To me, the trick to deciding who (whom?) to believe about cars is similar to picking a favorite movie critic. You find one that has the same preferences (or biases) that you do. There are movie critics who pan the movies that I like and some that praise them. I've figured out who has the same tastes as I have and I lend their advice more credence.

The same thing with auto magazines. Some of them have the opinion that the more exotic the better. Some put handling at the top of the list. Some (especially Consumer Reports) seem to think that we should all putter around only in the sanitized little boxes that meet their official approval.

Car and Driver is my favorite because their bias toward performance over practicality matches mine. They do, however, report on which cars are more practical, get better mileage, have more trunk room, etc. If those are the things that are more important to you, then you can still find out about them in C/D, it's just that that kind of car isn't as likely to win in their test.

The third-place Corolla comes to mind here. It had the best gas mileage, best acceleration and C/D felt that it was overall a very well built and easy-to-live-with car. But it's not a whole lot of fun to drive, so it suffered in their rankings.

I do read CR for recommendations on household stuff (their recommendation on the vacuum I bought was worth a year's subscription). Some of the car info that they put out is stuff you won't find anywhere else and can be pretty useful, but their taste in cars is so different than mine that I generally wouldn't buy their top pick.

bluong1 · October 2002

wmoses · October 2002

Bruno --

I am not trying to convince you or anyone of anything. I am merely putting forward a viewpoint.

I really don't have the time or inclination to debate something that is essentially difficult to prove without proper and involved analysis. Given the time, I assure you it can be done. But I don't really care that much.

As a professional engineer who is experienced in both design (OK, not of cars) and reviewing and approving the designs of others, I think I can judge when something is done scientifically or not. Whether or not you believe that I can is not important ... not to me anyway.

I can give you a concrete example of a CR review that was way off base. It was on my old car, 1989 Sonata. Pretty much everything the reviewer said was a problem was *nonexistent* in my car -- for the entire time I owned it. Moreover, the things he said were wrong could have been attributed to the particular tester he had for a few hours, yet he attributed it to faults across the entire line. In other words they were not design issues. In Psychology that is called "Simple Enumeration" and it is known to be a very weak and simplistic approach at arriving at a conclusion.

I don't have the time to do research to give you more explicit examples (CR magazine issue, exactly what was said, etc.). It was, after all over 13 years ago.

Finally, I was the one to state, in my message that my posting was an opinion, and of similar value to the opinions proffered by the selfsame reviewers you seem to put so much faith in.

newcar31 · October 2002

"Moreover they are "automotive journalists", not engineers, not technicians, not race car drivers."

Patrick Bedard and Csaba Csere are engineers. They are also journalists for C&D. I'm sure there are more, but that's all I can think of for C&D. I'm also sure there are some ex racers and technicians working for these mags. You don't get a journalist job at C&D just because you are an enthusiast. You have to have more than that.

"This can then extend to all members of a review team tending to write the same way since they all have the same masters to respond to in addition to the innate tendency to not contradict one's workmates all in the effort to "get along"."

The reviewers often don't agree. That's why they have the "counterpoint" portion of a review.

bluong1 · October 2002

Mr. Wayne, fair enough. Of course you are entitled of your opinion and free to express it. Me too, I'm professional engineer. I currently do not design cars but a complex subsurface earth measurement instruments that costs 20 times an Elantra-GT. I cannot tell with certitude if C&D is *not* biased, but I also fail to see a substantial hint showing otherwise. For me, C&D in the present time (and not 13 years ago) is one of the most serious car magazines out there.

All the best,

Bruno

newcar31 · October 2002

"For me, C&D in the present time (and not 13 years ago) is one of the most serious car magazines out there."

It is indeed.

jimbeaumi · October 2002

Yes, indeed, there are actual engineers and drivers working at Car and Driver as well as Consumer Reports (I have friends working for CU). And CR does not drive cars for just a few hours. They purchase them, from a dealer, just like us, and keep them for several months, which allows for break-in and a better test. The car mags keep their loaners only for a matter of days, unless they conduct long-term tests.

There's nothing like one or two errors or inconsistencies to convince people to throw out the baby with the bath water. I've seen errors in both magazines, and corrections as well. And I think it is wise to read ALL available information on vehicles. Just because a publication finds a product problem or flaw that we have not experienced does not mean the problem didn't exist.

newcar31 · October 2002

I don't know where moses got the idea that there are no engineers at car mags. I'm getting the idea that moses doesn't read many car mags.

gpagpa · October 2002

I was searching and I found out that CarsDirect.com was including a $1250 rebate on the 2002 Elantra GT. I thought that all the rebates excluded the GT. Just bought one last month, I would of waited if I knew that the GT was included. Any coments?

esto · October 2002

Yup, GT is included; started 1-OCT-2002, set to expire 31-OCT-2002 (at least in the Portland OR area). Checked it out right here on Edmunds.

Erik

wmoses · October 2002

newcar31 said --

I don't know where moses got the idea that there are no engineers at car mags. I'm getting the idea that moses doesn't read many car mags

FYI, I do read car magazines. I used to read Road and Track and Car and Driver quite frequently. I also had a subscription to Motor Trend, and currently have subscriptions to World of Wheels (a sensible magazine, Canadian too) and Sport Compact Car. Enough magazines for you?

Bruno -- hello to a fellow engineer. I am involved in ships myself.

When I put in my 2 cents, it was just to agree with some that there is a definite bias among many reviewers against the cars which are the subject of this forum. If they do review Hyundais, their tone is condescending, begrudging. Who needs that? I don't.

Despite all the arguments to the contrary, reviewers are, as far as I can tell and in the main, non-technical. Patrick Bedard and Csaba Csere are 2 out of how many???

If you want decent reviews, look to PBS's MotorWeek. They don't have corprate masters to please the way these publications do.

I think I have made my point.

FWIW, I am going to buy the November C&D now that they seem to be giving the Elantra a fair shake.

backy · October 2002

Thanks for expressing your opinion on this, which I share. We can get something from all the car reviews, whether they are in C/D or CR or Edmunds.com. I don't read a review and blindly go out and buy a car based on that one review. But the information is useful in my decision process. It helps to understand what the editorial bias of each source is. And each one is biased in some way, Mr. Luong--and that is not a bad thing, and it's not a question of fairness, it's just the way it is. At least C/D makes it very clear what their bias is. They even poke fun at their biases, as they did in the Economy Sedans comparo and in recent comparos involving the BMW 3 Series, in which they almost fall all over themselves apologizing for picking the 3 Series for what seems like the 43rd time in a row. If all these car reviews were purely objective, with the human element totally absent, would they be any fun to read?

jwt3 · October 2002

Here's another GT review from the National Post in Canada.

http://www.nationalpost.com/driversedge/story.html?id={49E13CA9-F736-47D4-9EFA-1A292C7F019F}

bri70 · October 2002

The above review is a decent example of personal bias that seeps into a review. The reviewer did not like the radio, leather, cup holders or the uncoordinated lights in the interior. Fair enough.

Myself I find the radio adequate, the cupholders very good and the leather to be satisfactory. So much so that in a review I would not bother to mention those factors.

But the important criteria is the ride. The reviewer found the ride to be decent. She even labeled the ride as "sporty", a characterization I would not go as far with.

I guess one must look at an amalgamation of reviews to get a general "feel" for a particular automobile.

bluong1 · October 2002

you wrote: >>> And each one is biased in some way, Mr. Luong--and that is not a bad thing, and it's not a question of fairness, it's just the way it is. <<<

So let's me get it's straight, if *it's just the way it is*, so is there anyone out there who is non-biased when judging a car? Probably not (according to you.) So why bother at the first place to mention out loud a magazine is biased, as this adjective is no longer relevant? Yes, IT'S A QUESTION OF FAIRNESS. I don't go around accusing people of being biased just because anyone have his/her own preference.

I'm almost sure that you consider your own judgment is totally objective as 99% of human being. Is that mean that anyone who does not share your though of the Elantra GT as the best car is biased?

I rest my case here.

Bruno

jimbeaumi · October 2002

Apparently, the above reviewer did not bother to remove the cupholder insert which would enable her to carry an EXTRA LARGE McDonald's shake (which I have done). What does she want, a bucket-holder? As for "embarassing" shifts into the wrong gear, has anyone here done that with this car? I know I haven't. Sheesh!

jeffhall76 · October 2002

Yes, the cupholders can accomodate a rather large drink. I have never had a cup that wouldn't fit! One thing I will agree with her on is the variety of colors on the dash... the purple lights, the green, the bright green clock. I wish they made it all purple and red.

wmoses · October 2002

jimbeaumi mentioned --

Apparently, the above reviewer did not bother to remove the cupholder insert which would enable her to carry an EXTRA LARGE McDonald's shake (which I have done). What does she want, a bucket-holder? As for "embarassing" shifts into the wrong gear, has anyone here done that with this car? I know I haven't. Sheesh!

Seems to me this reviewer is just about ready to "graduate" to reviewing for Consumer Reports. :-)

It is the *same* attitude and approach I see there (CR), and _that_ is why I made my comments earlier on, much to the chagrin of many.

This so-called reviewer is precisely the type I was speaking about. When you read her review and then read the reviews of other, more respected publications (never mind what we who actually own the car say!), you have to conclude that she must be what the subject of this message says.

Hahaha ... I am glad that Jon brought this "review" to the forum's attention at this time. Quite timely. :-D

jimbeaumi · October 2002

You've already made it painfully clear you dislike Consumer Reports. Please don't insult the people who I know personally who work for CU.

backy · October 2002

>>> I'm almost sure that you consider your own judgment is totally objective as 99% of human being. Is that mean that anyone who does not share your though of the Elantra GT as the best car is biased? <<<

I am glad you have "rested your case", because it is time for me to ask Mr. Scott to beam me up now.

Of course I am as biased about certain things as the next person. Everyone is biased in some way. But I have never said, nor do I believe, that the Elantra GT is "the best car." Please do not put words in my mouth. Energize.

magoo55 · October 2002

It seems the "arguments" regarding reviews from various publications are not that important...

They don't discuss oil capacity. Listen, the Elantra only takes 3 1/2 quarts of oil, not
4 1/2 as stated in the manual. This site was once devoted to the in's and out's of the mentioned vehicle, not everyone's jabs at each other. It would be nice to be able to share info rather than everyone's posturing....

backy · October 2002

The invoice for the 15,000 mile service on my Elantra shows 5 quarts of oil. So is my engine ruined?

wmoses · October 2002

magoo55 said --

This site was once devoted to the in's and out's of the mentioned vehicle, not everyone's jabs at each other. It would be nice to be able to share info rather than everyone's posturing....

Point very well taken, Doug. I agree that your oil capacity post is much more meaningful and important to owners of this car, than are reviews.

For more pointed discussion about the actual car, check out the mailing list associated with the Drivers & Believers website --

http://www.gwebworks.com/elantra_gt/list.shtml

You may be more pleased with the signal/noise ratio there.

nihao4587 · October 2002

Elantra GT has been my primary target for a few months aleady. This time it gets 1250 cash-in rebate and that really makes my hands ichy. Since the 2003 GT hatchback and sedan are both out, I also wanna know if there are any changes on the newer models. What do I lose by getting the 02s at a cheaper price? If anyone can give me some information on that, it will be really appreciated. thank you all.

P.S. Finally adjust my No.1 target from Protege to the GT, since my wife does not like the harsh ride on our 02 civic, which is very similar on the 02 protege we test-drove. So now all I need to convince her is that, Korean built car is no worse than the Japanese.

lngtonge18 · October 2002

You don't loose much of anything. If you can find an 02 in the color you like, I say go for the rebate. The 03 added a standard black lip spoiler, but otherwise was unchanged. The only thing you really lose is resale value as the 02 will soon be a year old, but than again, the rebate offsets that.

revka · October 2002

You can read about 2003 changes in Edmunds' What's New Section section. Good luck with your decision.

Revka

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Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

magoo55 · October 2002

I would like people on this site just to take a breath...It's a great little car, share your experiences and results with others...it's to everyone's benefit...
Thank you and good night!

backy · October 2002

Since you are the latest person to bring this issue to our attention, can you tell me if I need to worry that my dealer may have put in 5 quarts of oil? What would be the symptoms of an overfill? I haven't noticed any odd engine behavior yet.

nippononly · October 2002

I find it a little suspect that the car is only supposed to hold 3.5 quarts of oil? That is pretty low. Look at the dipstick in your car and see if the oil level is way above "full". If it is, it is important to drain some out. This leads to oil aeration and improper oiling of the internal components of your engine.

jimsbo · October 2002

I've been reading about the oil capacity question for months. I bought a GT last November. I installed the Fumoto valve after reading all the drain plug problems. After my first oil change I too noticed the level on the dipstick was way over full.

I found this at Hyundai USA (sorry, I don't know why I can't copy as a link):

https://dcsonline.hyundaidealer.com/dealer/tech_info/tech_sevice_main.html

copy that and go there.

You'll need to select your year and model, then "Engine Mechanical System" from the list you get, then "Lubrication System", then "engine oil"

and finally "Replacement". This site claims to be the same data the dealers use. It says the capacity is 3.91 U.S.quarts w/o filter, 4.23 qts. with. Note the capacity is 3.5 IMPERIAL quarts with filter.

So, I've been putting in a little over 4 quarts for my fills. It reads high on the stick, but I trust this site more than the stick...

Maybe we all have Imperial dipsticks and we need the US sticks. Ha!

Jimbo

By the way this address can also be reached from HyundaiUSA.com. It's under Owners, Car Care, Maintenance, then scroll to Hyundai WebTech.

204meca · October 2002

Post #2675 by lngtonge18: I am in same situation as you. I have been communicating with site815 (a Korean guy who is involved with Hyundai. He confirms no real changes for 2003 EXPEXT the KOREAN 2003 model has variable valve timing on the 2.0 L beta engine that adds about about 10% horsepower & torque + increases city gas mileage by 1 mpg. This will be in the U.S. models for 2004 for sure, could be here sometime in 2003.

I am in a quandry for sure. Is getting the year end deal (I suspect can get the manufacturer's rebate plus get the 2002 model at invoice or less) better than waiting as long as a year for the new & improved engine and paying more? Tough call.

My local dealers only have 2 GTs with sticks left -- not my favorite colors either! I am going to wheel & deal for the rebate, below invoice on GT & higher than blue book on my 97 Del Sol. If I can get the 2002 GT for $5K (tax & title included) I may jump the Honda ship now. Otherwise I will wait it out.

dustbail · October 2002

http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/iindex.asp?id=394878895#_394878895

gpagpa · October 2002

How many of you that bought the GT are having any regrets since they came out with the rebate? Just got mine last month without the rebate, thought I got a decent deal. Oh well.

bluemeanie · October 2002

I bought an '02 GT (carbon blue/auto/pkg 11) early September. Yeah, for $1250 I kinda wish my old Neon had held out a little longer - then again, I probably would not have been able to find the car I have now - it was hard to find then.

Hey - still got a helluva lot of car for the $$$, dont'cha think?

gt_fan · October 2002

I've put 15,000 miles on my '02 Carbon Blue 5spd GT since I bought it in January. No problems to report and I seriously don't miss my Audi Quattro at all. My only regret is that I paid $15,400 before taxes. They're a whole lot less expensive now. Oh well, I'd have paid the difference in extra repairs to the Audi in the meantime.

gpagpa · October 2002

So I bought the GT before the rebate came out, I guess its just a common reaction when you buy something and the next week you see it on sale. I agree, it was very difficult to get the GT 5sp and package 11, and it probably would of been harder to find now.

gpagpa · October 2002

I have the GT in Pewter, and I noticed that the interior color of the leather is more like blue rather than dark gray. Anyone else notice this?

wmoses · October 2002

gpagpa asked --

I have the GT in Pewter, and I noticed that the interior color of the leather is more like blue rather than dark gray. Anyone else notice this?

Yes, it is the same on my car as well. Why? Don't you like the colour?

gpagpa · October 2002

I like the color, just remember reading that the standard color in the Gt is dark gray as listed on their website and all the literature. Thought I had one that was a mistake. Must be blue in all the GT's.

hottodd · October 2002

I've seen a "black fin" listed on the 03 Elantra GT. Well that sounds ok on the black and maybe silver model but not the other colors. Does anyone have a picture of this?

bluemeanie · October 2002

The leather is dark grey (close to black) on mine. Maybe yours used a different batch of skins?

Blue would look kinda neat with a carbon blue exterior...

gpagpa · October 2002

yes, maybe got it from Paul Bunyon's side kick, Babe.

th003g · October 2002

i guess you could say it really depends on the lighting conditions... the leather is not really a Grey color... in bright sunlight it may look abit blue... in darkness it looks darker than blue but not really grey...
i've recently really wanted to get a matching Mini cooper S in Indi blue and white top to match my cobalt blue GT... either that or sell the gt but I wont get much...i hope its just a case of itchy fingers....but a Mini would be really nice...

CapeCod · October 2002

I've seen info re 4 door GT... not the hatchback model?
Does this car really exist ?
At the lots I see GLS with added spoiler... is this the GT ?
There is no GT logo... no leather inside.
I certainly can live without the GT logo
but the leather would be nice in a sedan !
Also I think the seat fabric looks a little better this year !

mike91326 · October 2002

I talked to my dealer today and he said that the 4 door GT or GTS will be out the end of this month or early next month. He said it is the same as a GT, only with a trunk.

gpagpa · October 2002

After reading all the horror stories about stripped oil pans when changing the oil, I am considering changing my own oil. I wanted to know if anyone out there has a suggestion on a accurate torque wrench for the oil pan plug. The price ranges from $15 up to over $100. Also, is it possible to change the oil without a ramp, or is it impossible to squeeze under the car with the pan and to be able to maneuver under there to access the oil plug and filter?

nippononly · October 2002

will be even less money than the hatchback, won't it? What a deal!

CapeCod · October 2002

Are you saying this will have the leather ?
In my area NYS the hatchback GT are hard to get...
I wonder if the GT sedans will be even worse !
I'm surprised Hyundai doesn't up production.
Guess they want to stay a cheap car company ?

clayman1000 · October 2002

Just test drove a four door GT Hatch '03 and am ready to buy. Did not want a one year old car even with rebate.
Got a good price, just looking for one with ABS and Traction Control. Chinati Red. Sweet.

Also, noticed on the invoice they are saying 135HP, not 140!

Also, Edmunds is listing the 'Cons' as poor offset crash test rating.
Is this from last year or is this a new test? Anyone know for sure?

wmoses · October 2002

gpagpa asked --

I wanted to know if anyone out there has a suggestion on a accurate torque wrench for the oil pan plug.

Nice number to remember is 30 ft.lbs. WebTech says 25 - 33 ft.lbs. Also remember to change the compressible oil plug washer every time.

Also, is it possible to change the oil without a ramp, or is it impossible to squeeze under the car with the pan and to be able to maneuver under there to access the oil plug and filter?

Not if you are going to use a wrench and tighten to the correct torque. If you install an oil drain valve you should be able to do it. Check the Drivers and Believers Garage page for more details.

Hyundai Elantra 5-door

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