Okay this is the final venue change. If you notice it also has a slight name alteration as well(I'll explain the alteration when it's a more appropriate time). Memphis didn't have enough hotel rooms in one location.
Gateway Raceway Park in St. Louis, Missouri will be the site of the event. The dates are July 12-15, 2001. I'm still getting hotel information and dollar numbers for the various activities, so until I get all that I can't say what the cost will be.
The road course is 1.67 miles long. We anticipate having a SCCA High-Performance Driving School as part of the events for all those who are interested. This will be a family-friendly event. Goal is to have 100 LS owners in attendance. More would make it oh so sweeter.
FYI. Drive time: Saint Louis is 13 hours from NJ, two days from Southern California.
Brian
I'd like to schedule a chat with the members to kind of brainstorm the events for next week. Email me and let me know if a weeknight or weekend is better for this.
P.S. I was just reminded, for those of us who like beer, that Saint Louis is the home of Anheiser-Busch, just in case you needed any extra convincing
Bill, I took no offense at anything you, or anyone else, has said regarding the safety issue. I believe that whatever supplemental restraints a particular vehicle has is a matter of personal choice, just as is color choice, but potentially more significant. However, if I prefer not to purchase a side curtain I should not be forced to have one. After all, if I truly want to worry about side impacts damaging my brain I can always wear my cycle helmet Like most automotive accessories it is a cost-benefit matter. I just have a differing take on the issue.
I don't know which I would have preferred: freezing in Alaska or being warm but occasionally shot at in Beirut. On the other hand I did get to play tourist in Israel and Italy while on leave. I know I prefer them to Alaska, but then I'm originally from Tarpon Springs, Florida so cold weather is definitely not for me.
As I recall, the initial use of air bags was in lieu of "mandatory" shoulder harness use -- those delightful motorized devices some of us recall. The implication at the time was that air bags were to make up for the morons who didn't belive shoulder harnesses were useful.
It's a Darwin thing. Those who don't believe in this stuff won't live through too many generations. . .but my point is NOT that air bags are necessarily a good thing. My point is that the bag is not offered as an option to the (relatively) dirt cheap belts and harnesses that probably work better, if used. The bag is required, but strangely enough it's emphasized over and over that it's "supplemental" -- to be used in conjunction with a real restraint system. That would be the belts.
FWIW, when I owned a '65 MGB, I used a four-point racing harness that I moved on through two subsequent vehicles that were driven fairly hard, none of which had air bags.
St Louis, MO , here I come again. I spent 9 months tdy there back in '87. Any chance that the brewery ran out of beer by now? I vividly remember the Soulard district, a french section downtown that is known for great bars in bronwstone buildings. They all had great looking.....bottles of beeers.....or something like that. Here is something that surprised me when I was there. St Louis has great Italian restaurants. Anyway, it is still 15 hours away but that is 2 hours better than Memphis from Philadelphia.
Had the first service done on my LS8 Sport (00) at 3700 miles. Have had intermittent problems with the steering wheel audio controls, but only when it's cold. They couldn't reproduce (naturally, it's warm in Florida now), but then it'll be almost 8 months till it gets cold again, at least, so it doesn't matter much. Got my tranny reflashed, they had to download the s/w but did it with no problem. No charge for any of the service, and I had a Grand Marquis with 2600 miles on it for a loaner.
They (Central Florida Lincoln Mercury) have a neat web based application. If you give them your e-mail, you get a message directing you to the service page. There you can check status on your car by VIN, license plate, or service invoice number, and even check the service history of your car. Each concern is listed and tracked, and the result is there. In case you don't like how they handled a problem you can call and argue with the service boss about it rather than finding out when you pick the car up. When the car is finished the page says STATUS: Complete on the top line of the page. Very cool.
Spoke to a manager there who hadn't heard about the LLSOC, and gave him the URL. He seemed interested to investigate, so maybe he'll want to cross link to and from their web site to LLSOC? Would like to get some of these dealers, especially that do well on sales and service, like this one, to work with the club. Hope something happens.
My 01 LS V8 Sport has gone over the 1K miles. It took me 3 weeks and that includes 2 snowstorms when I kept it my garage and drove my Explorer. The last storm made me miss the chat with Mark last Thursday.
No problems to report. I only remember a hesitation in shifting during the first week. It took me a while to get used to the brakes but now that I "needed them" a couple of time I have learned to trust them. The car really makes you feel in full control. This car will close a gap in a hurry. It might not be the fastest 0 to 60 but it will get up to 80 from 30 in a flash. I haven't dared take it above 80 yet, but that's coming.
The automatic climate control works great. I haven't had a need for the cooling yet but the heating and defrosting work well. I haven't noticed any defects in workmanship and the car feels solid. I'll be taking the car in for service in a few days. Besides the free maintenance from Lincoln for the first 36k miles the dealer is giving me the first one free. I'm using that to get the oil and filter changed now. I'm hoping they can help me remove the pencil mark from my center console. That's the only thing I have to complain about. All and all, I would have to say that for the price you can't beat the LS. I'm sure I can buy a faster car that handles all kinds of roads better than the LS. I just don't think I can buy it for less that $40k.
I'm looking forward to my first long trip. We are going to Maine in June. It should be a great drive. After that I'm hoping to make the trip to LS Mania and meet some of the founding members.
Tell your dealer that the problem is the RADIO, not the steering wheel controls. Mine did the exact same thing when cold. After they replaced the controls and they still didn't work, they replaced the radio and all's well. My symptoms were: volume worked fine, station up increased the volume, station down worked fine, mute didn't work at all. Also, when the controls didn't work, the lights on the radio panel didn't work. Once the radio was replaced 6 months ago, everything was been fine.
Spent more years than I care to remember(or can remember) in St. Louis. Big city, small town feel. Streets in downtown are rolled up at 6:00pm except for some of the hot spots, like Laclede's Landing, Soulard, the Hill. Lots of parks, museums and sightseeing opportunities. Maybe we'll even set up a cruise night to go up River Road by ole Miss. Imagine about 50 LSs driving up a two lane up against the picturesque bluffs of the Mississippi.
Lots of things to do there for both the LS owners and the folks who aren't that interested in the track events.
And for those that enjoy engineering stuff, the Arch is a must see. The natives used to call it the Giant Coat Hanger, but it is a marvel of modern engineering. You especially value it when you ride up in the "eggs" elevators and stand at the top looking underneath you and seeing nothing there! Not something to do after you've visited the brewery and gotten free samples
I realize that a lot of discussion on safety gear has ensued since I logged off yesterday, but I'd like to throw in another $.02 worth. IMHO from what I've seen and heard, the safety zealots have convinced the "average man/woman" on the street that all of the wonderful equipment now installed on the new cars is so-o-o good, that it will save them from themselves. In other words, drive as recklessly as you will, the ABS will stop you in the nick of time, or the stability control will get you around "it", or in the worst case, the air bag will save you when you hit "it". Therefore, a lot of people drive like they just don't care, under the false assumption that the car will bail them out. I realize that you probably can't document this, but just look around at how people drive today. In post #1098, billincal1 describes how the ABS helped him out, but the "rice rocket" driver was the root cause of Bill's problem. Here in western New York, people still drive 50-55 MPH in snow storms. Ask them if they think it's dangerous? No way, they'll say, I've got ABS !!! Am now putting Nomex and goggles back on.......
Thanks for the info about the radio, very similar to identical symptoms. I think once the rocker switch screwed with the volume now that I think back on it. The other day I noticed the radio stuck in low light display mode instead of full brightness for a while. Anyway, it definitely appears to be temp related. When it fails enough to be a problem I'll have them change the radio instead of the switch.
Being one of the instigators of the safety discussion/debate/war take this for whatever it is worth (<$0.00). I believe that we are at an impasse here. There are those who firmly believe all vehicles ought to be laden with all the newest & best safety equipment available regardless of the cost or whether it is ever used. Others, like me, think a good safety belt is adequate and all else ought to be options which can be purchased by those who want them. A change of heart by either camp is as likely as Gephardt campaigning for Bush's tax cut. I recommend we leave this topic as unresolved and return to discussing the great car we all love so much. Getting off my soap box for good.
OK - after a somewhat expensive foray into the world of digital video, I managed to get my run #2 at the Porsche club event into downloadable format. The link is on my homepage. This oughta whet your appetite for St. Louis!
So the LS maniacs will be invading the mid west. I was born and raised in the city of St. Louis. I will gladly assist any of you in helping get the information that is needed, such as activities, shopping areas, restaurants, hotels. I will be unable to attend because I am a board member of The Joe Torry Give Back The Love Foundation and we will Be hosting a celebrity basketball game the same weekend, this would be a great event for the wife and kids while the big kids have fun at the tracks. If there is any way that I can help please don't hesitate because you all have shared your vast knowledge with everyone.
Like swagger and ezaircon4jc, I had the same strange radio symptoms and had it replaced under warranty two months ago. It's interesting that the bass response is notably better in the front speakers with the replacement 6-disk radio unit.
Leadfoot I agree that some safety features lull people into a false sense...usually they don't have much sense to begin with! ABS certainly works so well that people (as you say) think it's a green light to reckeless behavior.
Latest on retrofitting '01 console. Turns out that the $68 part was for that flip thing. The console top, with the new cupholders is really $136 plus the gommint's bribe. My dealer is Witt L/M, Escondido, Ca. I believe their site is www.wittlm.com I should get the new top in a week or so. I'll let you know how it goes. Michael
I accept the opinion that a well-trained driver can stop shorter without ABS turned on by skillfully modulating the brakes closer to the friction limits than the pulsing mechanism of ABS can achieve. However, this phenomenon has usually been demonstrated under controlled test conditions.
Under real-world crisis conditions when some moron suddenly turns left into your path, or suddenly accelerates into your path from a side street, you are usually dealing with a total surprise. Under those conditions your reactions are very unlikely to be "skillfully modulated".
First, you have to very quickly overcome your brain's disblief that someone could be so stupid as to do what they are doing. Even before your brain is past this denial, your foot will be mashing the brake and your hands spinning the steering wheel away from the intruding vehicle. You won't have made any sort of refined judgement about whether the road surface is wet or covered with sand or leaves.
Without ABS you will have a VERY HIGH probability of locking the wheels, reducing the stopping force (the sliding coefficient of friction is less than the non-slipping coefficient of friction) and most of your ability to steer the vehicle. WITH ABS, you will still be able to steer your vehicle, and the stopping force will still be better than when the tires are sliding.
As a motorcyclist, I am particularly sensitive to the benefits of ABS, because a motorcycle is much more sensitive to road surface conditions than four wheel vehicles are. I learned to modulate the brakes (especially the front brake) habitually according to the road conditions, but I'll tell you that under panic stop conditions, even a highly experienced motorcyclist data channels can overload and not be able to "modulate" optimally.
About three years ago, when a little old lady patiently waited in the left turn lane until I was entering the intersection at 55 MPH and suddenly decided "Oh, I guess I'll turn left now!" I didn't have time to "modulate" anything! My brain hadn't even accepted the ugly truth yet, but my right hand was clamped with full strength on the front brake lever and my right foot was hard down on the rear brake pedal. I never would have believed how quickly that BMW could stop until I had that panic stop. I can still hardly believe I actually missed hitting that car!
Your arguement is undermined by one item. I believe Little Dick Gephardt voted in favor of Reagan's 1981 tax cut. Probably was the last tax cut he voted for. Would be nice to see him vote for another one. He will if he sees a clear political gain. He does want to be House Speaker and maybe President, some day. (I had hoped Don Federer would unseat him last election, but was not to be. Don came very close in '98.)
I will admit that there is a real possibility that a skilled driver can equal or better the performance of an automatic braking system or stabilitrac (or whatever it is called), but in the real world I can tell you for a fact that it doesn't happen that way. I am not a trained Nascar or GP driver. I drive every day and I get as complacent as anyone. Sure I think I am an excellent driver. I have taken driving courses and driven in races. Most recently I drove one of those Petty experiences and did just fine under seriously controlled circumstances. I can also attest that when a car that had been stopped in the breakdown lane of the expressway decided to pull onto the lane I was in with no warning when I was going about 65 MPH, my ONLY reaction was to avoid the iminent crash by turning away from him. This was a few years ago and fortunately I was driving a very nice handling sporty car. Nonetheless, I lost control and spun four times across 5 lanes of traffic and ended up in the grassy median facing the direction I had come in. I think most people would have reacted the same way (if their reflexes had even permitted them to react at all). All I know is that if I had been in a taller vehicle I would have probably dumped and rolled it. If it happened today, I would really appreciate any assistance I could get. I am not vain enough to trust my life and that of my family to the possibility that I would react just right and do just the right thing.
As to ABS, yes, I know how to modulate the braking, but again, that is in ideal circumstances and I don't have emergency stops in ideal circumstances. I would rather have the ABS which I expect would work better than I would most of the time.
I understand that some people THINK they would out perform most mechanical devices. My experience is that they would not. Most people are really marginal drivers and even if some of us could outperform the ABS or the handling control, we would probably be wiped out by the idiot in the next lane careening into us or spinning into us as I did years ago. I was just lucky that I spun between cars and trucks through pure luck, not skill.
I remember the good old days of the 70 m.p.h. speed limits, before Nixon though that we should conserve fuel. That was in 1974, and the government mandate that states lower their limits to receive Federal funds, same old black mail, different year.
We drove between Chicano to northern Wisconsin in a 1955 Imperial at 65 m.p.h with NO safety equipment. My younger brother rode on the arm rest so he could see out the windshield, for crying out loud.
The 1963 Plymouth was no better. There were five kids, the dog, and dad driving, but still no safety devices in the car. If it had seat belts, they were deeply hidden.
These where the days of two lane highways, four wheel drum brakes, bias ply tires, archaic body and frame structures. The speed limit was 65 during the day, but you wouldn't get a ticket unless you were doing 80.
I agree with most of the safety features included with vehicles now. I also know that ABS took so long to reach our shores due to worries about litigation if they didn't work. Unfortuneatly, we are a litigious society, so American Manufactures must take a wait and see approach.
Now, in WI, we have a new dependancy upon radar and vascar. We are ticketed for 7 over the limit in our safer vehicles, but driving stupidity is not found from the median or overpass, where the Troopers await the speeders.
I appreciate the safer vehicles. I like the A.B.S, disagree with air bags, but I'm happy that they are there. I wish our society would take credit for their own mistakes and not have to place the blame elsewhere. I also wish that Wisconson didn't invest in the Federally Mandated Speed Limit so much to make it their meal ticket.
The bottom line, is that there is none. We all have our preferences. We have a Republican asking for more saftey features and we have Democrates asking for lazze-faire. To each their own, but as Phil said on "Hill Street Blues," "Let's be safe out there."
Suffered a injury to the LS this morning, backing out of the driveway more concerned about hitting the snowbank in the yard, I backed up into my fence and scraped the bumper beyond repair.
So off to the body shop I went, and since they are going to get out the black paint anyway...
I am wondering have seen a few picutures, Is their a aftermarket bumper skin that has exhaust pipe tips cut outs?
If I have to pay for it I would like to have ones that would look good w/ some performance exhaust. I saw this mod on the Borla LS car @ www.borla.com.
Suffered a injury to the LS this morning, backing out of the driveway more concerned about hitting the snowbank in the yard, I backed up into my fence and scraped the bumper beyond repair.
So off to the body shop I went, and since they are going to get out the black paint anyway...
I am wondering have seen a few picutures, Is their a aftermarket bumper skin that has exhaust pipe tips cut outs?
If I have to pay for it I would like to have ones that would look good w/ some performance exhaust. I saw this mod on the Borla LS car @ www.borla.com.
This topic of conversation has actually prompted me to register with this site so I could comment.
I think that most of us would agree that we want to protect ourselves from injury but we don't all agree as to what we need in our vehicles to protect ourselves. I could argue that air bags are more dangerous and AS makes us over confident or I could argue that they save lives. This is not what the real argument should be. The real argument is about the government taking away our choice in the matter.
I believe that I need to wear a seat belt when I'm in a car. I also believe that the Government is invading on my personal freedoms when a law is created that forces me to wear a seat belt/have air bags/live life in a bubble/stay safe.
The bottom line is that we should have the option of taking advantage of technology that will make our lives safer. We should not be forced to pay for or use technology just because some government agency thinks they need to decide what is best for us poor ignorant souls.
There are several companies that make body kits for the LS. Go to www.llsoc.com and click on the Links link and there will be about 3-4 listed. Another cheaper way would be to look at the bumpers.com site(also listed) and just buy the stock rear valance and modify it yourself.
Justmark: Well said! That is the point I was trying to make.
Packv12: I am a proud member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and I think you have Democrats and Republicans reversed. It is the Dems who wish to rule over the masses while we Republicans want Government to not intrude upon our lives.
I read on one of the Edmunds sites, that for 2002 the LS would be "refreshed". Does anyone have details on specifically what will be different between the 2001 & 2002 LS?
I have the Alpine 6 disk in-dash changer in my 01 LS. I am considering keeping it and adding an external amp and upgraded speakers w/sub. Does anyone have info on the wiring harness coming from the Alpine or know of anyone that makes a harness to do what I want to? I would really like the pin-outs on the stereo.
I am considering purchasing the Wiring Diagram manual from Helm ( http://www.helminc.com ) for $60 to get this info. Does anyone have this manual? Any comments?
Since this is a relatively new unit they may not have the details yet, but Crutchfield not only has wiring diagrams and detailed instructions they will tell you what to wire, where to wire it and supply any necessary cables. I know in Ford Explorers and Rangers there is an external amp that must be bypassed with a special cable to allow the speaker wiring to be used with another head unit or amp. I think Ford uses something called Balanced Audio which is different than normal speaker/amp connections. Don't know if the LS uses this or not, but I would call Crutchfield first to see if they've solved it yet.
I agree that we should have a choice on some safety devices. If I am using passenger side seat belts then I question the additional benefit of an air bag over and above the seat belts. I do appreciate that the driver's side air bag will keep me from contacting the steering wheel so I'm ok with that. However, every time one of my children (6 and 12) must sit in the passenger seat (only when the back seats are full) I'm scared to death, even though they're old enough, using a seatbelt and sitting as far away from the dash as possible. At least give me a switch to turn it off under those circumstances like they do in pickups.
The different view is about the cost to society for people who shun even basic safety devices like motorcycle helmets and seat belts. Lack of these devices most definitely cause injuries and deaths that could be avoided by wearing them. Who pays for this? Insurance companies and hospitals. Insurance premiums go up. Taxes go up. Everyone pays for it. THAT is the problem I have with people who say it is their right whether they risk injury or death by not using basic safety devices. Your right to risk yourself is ok until it impacts the rest of us.
I purchased a new 2000 LS V-8 sport on 01/17/01. I had a few problems with the fit and finish and the transmission. This web site and LLSOC were extremely helpful. The fact that Jim Rogers and other executives "listen in" was a great help. Thanks!!
I have it. It's the worse designed manual I have ever seen of that type for a non-trained do-it-yourselfer. That's just my opinion, of course, but I have always bought all the shop manuals for any vehicle I have ever owned and they have all been much better in terms of clarity and detail than the LS manuals I bought from Helms. Even the mechanical/chassis manuals leave something to be desired. I believe they changed formats not too long ago in the interest of serving the "global market". I've heard Ford techs complain about the new format on more than one occasion. In many cases, the info is buried or otherwise obscurely located in a different section than you thought it ought to be. What I dislike the most is the lack of basic info. For instance, should I need to know how to change a bulb in the overhead console, there are *no* instructions on how to remove the lens assembly. If you don't know where the hidden tabs are or the correct sequence of removal steps on several of the internal body trim pieces, you run a good chance of at least doing some cosmetic damage or at worst breaking the hidden mounting tabs...I don't like to experiment on these sorts of things. My other vehicle manuals show in detail how to remove all trim pieces that you need to remove to get to a certain part. I presume Ford techs gain this knowledge through osmosis or something. I would be willing to buy a manual that contained this info but it is not available, at least from Helms.
Do YOU know how to remove the lens assembly for the overhead lights? I posted that question a few days ago and got no response. I have some insect bodies in there that are most distracting.
I bought these from my dealer before my LS even arrived. I have since decided to keep my truck so I drive it on the "bad" days rather than getting the LS all dirty. I will not be installing them so I thought I would see if there was any interest here before I put them on ebay. Forty bucks and they are yours...I'll pay the postage. Email me at jgwray@hotmail.com if interested....put a lot of LSLSLS's in the subject so I won't inadvertantly delete it...I use that address only when I have to publicly post an address...no way do I want the email address harvesters to get my ISP address in their nasty little books...the hotmail address gets about 25 spams a day as it is.
I respect those of you who believe it is your right to choose which safety devices are included in your car regardless of the cost.
I only ask that you remember your views should, God forbid, you ever end up in an accident where your injuries may have been mitigated by such a safety device. There are a lot of personal injury/product liability attorneys who would jump at the chance to rip into a car manufacturer's deep pockets for not including a safety device offering great safety value at little monetary cost.
Make sure you tell your attorney not to pursue such a claim, as it would violate your beliefs that you should be able to choose your own safety devices.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but I think the point is valid.
I believe, after almost 30 years of driving, that a good part of the problem is that people are not taught to "drive." From what I see, too many drivers drive like driving is a spectator sport. Put it in "D", hit the gas, stop when you MUST, and just point the car where you want to go. What ever happened th "defensive driving"? If drivers took a more active role in the piloting around of roughly 4000 pounds of potential killing machine, we'd have much fewer accidents, and much less litigation. IMHO.
RE: cupholders. I just got off the phone with my parts department. He will sell the 2001 console top to anyone that wants one for $136 + applicable tax. They are: Witt Lincoln/Mercury, Phone 760-233-3333. I don't think that they have an 800 number.
I am having such a good time with this car, I feel like a kid at Christmas! Great looks, have gotten many comments about it, great ride and handling, what more can you ask?
So far, only found one slight problem with the finish - looks like a couple of small chips on the paint on the top of the front bumper where it meets the side quarter panel. Only noticed because I was trying to inspect with a magnifying glass.
Haven't had a chance to really go over the whole thing, having too good of a time!
Msaralno: You may have written the post as sarcasm but I totally support everything you said. I am one who would not voluntarily purchase air bags or side curtains. If I were to become involved in an accident where I hit my head on the steering wheel or dash then any injuries I suffer ARE most definitely my own fault and I would never blame anyone else for them. I firmly believe that one must accept responsibility for one's own actions and I would personally throw any ambulance chasing attorney out my hospital window! But I still prefer to decide for myself what safety equipment I need to protect myself. If it does turn out to be inadequate then I alone will suffer/pay the price.
I think you might want to reconsider not installing your splash guards,xwray.
Even though you don't plan to drive your LS during wet weather, my experience is that their main benefit is to keep the disk brake dust and general sand and dust from the road off the side of the car behind the wheels (especially the rear wheels).
If you have the Sport package, the wider tires stick out more than standard tires, and lots of junk collects along the bottom of the rear fender panel and somewhat behind the front wheels too. The splash guards reduce this by about 75%, and I think it is worth it. Besides, they don't look bad on the car, IMHO.
I live out here in the "desert Southwest" where we hardly ever see rain, but we sure do see dust. Also, the Sport disk brakes are pretty dirty. The splash guards actually help more in the dry weather than they do in the wet.
The car shows might be showing the 2002, but I have not seen any pictures if they are. All the focus is on the Jag X-type and such, which is understandable. Whatever changes there are, I like to think we had some influence. About a year ago we all had opportunity to give Jim Rogers our wish list.
Let us return to our favorite topic as this safety equipment thread is not accomplishing anything. Before I gain the reputation of another mid-America poster here I think I will just go drive for awhile and allow tensions to fade away. Hmmm, it's about 12 miles home by interstate so I should be able to manage it in about 60 miles!
Had the flooding problem again today. Put the pedal to the floor and started ok with some noxious fumes. We have been through this discussion before and according to my dealer service manager he has alot of complaints about this problem (the owner and the owners daughters LS's were towed in for no start - flooding ). When I spoke to him this morning he said they must be working on the it because of the amount of complaints. We don't have any Ford engine people aboard here to my knowledge, but I was wondering if Mark or anyone else,with inside information, could check if some fix is in the works for this issue. Someone had recently posted that the latest PCM flash was supposed to take care of this problem as well as the trans issues. My service manager said there was no mention of this with the software information he had.
Tom, Please send me the details of the flooding concerns you've had. I will have someone from Powertrain speak to you directly (Please include your phone #, servicing dealer, etc...).
I just read Edmunds long-term road test on the 3 series. I don't get it. While I have nothing against the car, I do have a problem with what I feel is Edmunds biased reporting in favor of the BMW. Especially when you compare their flowery review against their typical critical review of the LS(Feb. long-term update was just posted).
Examples:
"This one example of the several ergonomic flaws in the car's secondary controls is kind of a pain in the neck, but you get used to it after a time," noted Cook.
"Mr. Reed relates: "What happens when a middle-aged guy, with middle-aged driving habits, is given the keys to a BMW 328i with a five-speed stick? Have you ever seen the old Disney cartoon about how mild-mannered Mr. Walker becomes the maniacal Mr. Wheeler when he gets into a car? Let's just say that a whole different personality seemed to be tapped by the performance and handling of this German bombshell. I had been in the car for only a few minutes when I found myself next to another BMW on an entrance ramp to the freeway. Normally, I would have backed off and let him merge. But now I was no longer Mr. Walker. I became Mr. Wheeler. I put my foot down. I won the short race and was rewarded with open road in front of the car's hood instead of the back end of someone else's car."
"But surprisingly, I think I actually had the seat up too high, because the rearview mirror sometimes blocked my view. I got over this inconvenience quickly, given the panoramic view out the rear window that the high seating position afforded me. I like the idea of leatherette upholstery — it's probably no stickier than leather in the summer and I don't have to cope with the guilt of knowing that cows gave up their skins for the sake of a fossil fuel-burning car with a finite existence."
"I wish this 328i had an auto-dimming rearview mirror, given its price (I see that you can get one for the 330i if you option it with the premium package) — the long-term Lincoln LS seems to have come standard with one. This feature reduces fatigue and lifts spirits during commutes, especially with so many SUVs on the road."
"There still seems to be a few of the lingering minor problems that I've noticed in the past. The mysterious rattle in the back is still there and the windows still creak when you roll them up. Even with these small problems, this car is still as much fun to drive as it was when new."
Now on the LS review what did we get?
Let's see... Oh Yeah, the rear view mirror isn't square enough. The woodgrain trim is plastic (but hey, we do have leather upholstery, not vinyl) and we do have a CD player included and not an option. And our test car didn't creak and we have an auto-dimming mirror!
So let's see if I've got this straight: 1. Car costs more. 2. Car creaks. 3. CD is an option. 4. Manual radio tuning is a nightmare of ergonomics. 5. Vinyl seats(Leatherette is man-made, after all, no matter what cute name you want to call it) 6. Rear-view mirror that blocks view when the seat is adjusted higher.
Please read the whole review. I'm just curious. Is it me or is Edmunds really playing favorites here?
Feel free to, but, please, with grace and tact. As one who gives in quietly or consents without arguing (i.e., acquiesce), couldn't you also leave aside the sniping? And if you are going to write against me in a sly way, why not use my name? I don't mind you using my site name in vain.
Comments
Gateway Raceway Park in St. Louis, Missouri will be the site of the event. The dates are July 12-15, 2001. I'm still getting hotel information and dollar numbers for the various activities, so until I get all that I can't say what the cost will be.
The road course is 1.67 miles long. We anticipate having a SCCA High-Performance Driving School as part of the events for all those who are interested. This will be a family-friendly event. Goal is to have 100 LS owners in attendance. More would make it oh so sweeter.
FYI. Drive time: Saint Louis is 13 hours from NJ, two days from Southern California.
Brian
I'd like to schedule a chat with the members to kind of brainstorm the events for next week. Email me and let me know if a weeknight or weekend is better for this.
P.S. I was just reminded, for those of us who like beer, that Saint Louis is the home of Anheiser-Busch, just in case you needed any extra convincing
I don't know which I would have preferred: freezing in Alaska or being warm but occasionally shot at in Beirut. On the other hand I did get to play tourist in Israel and Italy while on leave. I know I prefer them to Alaska, but then I'm originally from Tarpon Springs, Florida so cold weather is definitely not for me.
Jim
It's a Darwin thing. Those who don't believe in this stuff won't live through too many generations. . .but my point is NOT that air bags are necessarily a good thing. My point is that the bag is not offered as an option to the (relatively) dirt cheap belts and harnesses that probably work better, if used. The bag is required, but strangely enough it's emphasized over and over that it's "supplemental" -- to be used in conjunction with a real restraint system. That would be the belts.
FWIW, when I owned a '65 MGB, I used a four-point racing harness that I moved on through two subsequent vehicles that were driven fairly hard, none of which had air bags.
Hector
They (Central Florida Lincoln Mercury) have a neat web based application. If you give them your e-mail, you get a message directing you to the service page. There you can check status on your car by VIN, license plate, or service invoice number, and even check the service history of your car. Each concern is listed and tracked, and the result is there. In case you don't like how they handled a problem you can call and argue with the service boss about it rather than finding out when you pick the car up. When the car is finished the page says STATUS: Complete on the top line of the page. Very cool.
Spoke to a manager there who hadn't heard about the LLSOC, and gave him the URL. He seemed interested to investigate, so maybe he'll want to cross link to and from their web site to LLSOC? Would like to get some of these dealers, especially that do well on sales and service, like this one, to work with the club. Hope something happens.
No problems to report. I only remember a hesitation in shifting during the first week. It took me a while to get used to the brakes but now that I "needed them" a couple of time I have learned to trust them. The car really makes you feel in full control. This car will close a gap in a hurry. It might not be the fastest 0 to 60 but it will get up to 80 from 30 in a flash. I haven't dared take it above 80 yet, but that's coming.
The automatic climate control works great. I haven't had a need for the cooling yet but the heating and defrosting work well. I haven't noticed any defects in workmanship and the car feels solid. I'll be taking the car in for service in a few days. Besides the free maintenance from Lincoln for the first 36k miles the dealer is giving me the first one free. I'm using that to get the oil and filter changed now. I'm hoping they can help me remove the pencil mark from my center console. That's the only thing I have to complain about. All and all, I would have to say that for the price you can't beat the LS. I'm sure I can buy a faster car that handles all kinds of roads better than the LS. I just don't think I can buy it for less that $40k.
I'm looking forward to my first long trip. We are going to Maine in June. It should be a great drive. After that I'm hoping to make the trip to LS Mania and meet some of the founding members.
Hector
Lots of things to do there for both the LS owners and the folks who aren't that interested in the track events.
And for those that enjoy engineering stuff, the Arch is a must see. The natives used to call it the Giant Coat Hanger, but it is a marvel of modern engineering. You especially value it when you ride up in the "eggs" elevators and stand at the top looking underneath you and seeing nothing there! Not something to do after you've visited the brewery and gotten free samples
Brian
IMHO from what I've seen and heard, the safety zealots have convinced the "average man/woman" on the street that all of the wonderful equipment now installed on the new cars is so-o-o good, that it will save them from themselves. In other words, drive as recklessly as you will, the ABS will stop you in the nick of time, or the stability control will get you around "it", or in the worst case, the air bag will save you when you hit "it".
Therefore, a lot of people drive like they just don't care, under the false assumption that the car will bail them out. I realize that you probably can't document this, but just look around at how people drive today. In post #1098, billincal1 describes how the ABS helped him out, but the "rice rocket" driver was the root cause of Bill's problem. Here in western New York, people still drive 50-55 MPH in snow storms. Ask them if they think it's dangerous? No way, they'll say, I've got ABS !!!
Am now putting Nomex and goggles back on.......
Now all I have to do is replace the speakers.
Happy LSing
A.D. Hinkle
Thanks,
Brian
Michael
Under real-world crisis conditions when some moron suddenly turns left into your path, or suddenly accelerates into your path from a side street, you are usually dealing with a total surprise. Under those conditions your reactions are very unlikely to be "skillfully modulated".
First, you have to very quickly overcome your brain's disblief that someone could be so stupid as to do what they are doing. Even before your brain is past this denial, your foot will be mashing the brake and your hands spinning the steering wheel away from the intruding vehicle. You won't have made any sort of refined judgement about whether the road surface is wet or covered with sand or leaves.
Without ABS you will have a VERY HIGH probability of locking the wheels, reducing the stopping force (the sliding coefficient of friction is less than the non-slipping coefficient of friction) and most of your ability to steer the vehicle. WITH ABS, you will still be able to steer your vehicle, and the stopping force will still be better than when the tires are sliding.
As a motorcyclist, I am particularly sensitive to the benefits of ABS, because a motorcycle is much more sensitive to road surface conditions than four wheel vehicles are. I learned to modulate the brakes (especially the front brake) habitually according to the road conditions, but I'll tell you that under panic stop conditions, even a highly experienced motorcyclist data channels can overload and not be able to "modulate" optimally.
About three years ago, when a little old lady patiently waited in the left turn lane until I was entering the intersection at 55 MPH and suddenly decided "Oh, I guess I'll turn left now!" I didn't have time to "modulate" anything! My brain hadn't even accepted the ugly truth yet, but my right hand was clamped with full strength on the front brake lever and my right foot was hard down on the rear brake pedal. I never would have believed how quickly that BMW could stop until I had that panic stop. I can still hardly believe I actually missed hitting that car!
Am I an ABS advocate? You betcha baby!
As to ABS, yes, I know how to modulate the braking, but again, that is in ideal circumstances and I don't have emergency stops in ideal circumstances. I would rather have the ABS which I expect would work better than I would most of the time.
I understand that some people THINK they would out perform most mechanical devices. My experience is that they would not. Most people are really marginal drivers and even if some of us could outperform the ABS or the handling control, we would probably be wiped out by the idiot in the next lane careening into us or spinning into us as I did years ago. I was just lucky that I spun between cars and trucks through pure luck, not skill.
We drove between Chicano to northern Wisconsin in a 1955 Imperial at 65 m.p.h with NO safety equipment. My younger brother rode on the arm rest so he could see out the windshield, for crying out loud.
The 1963 Plymouth was no better. There were five kids, the dog, and dad driving, but still no safety devices in the car. If it had seat belts, they were deeply hidden.
These where the days of two lane highways, four wheel drum brakes, bias ply tires, archaic body and frame structures. The speed limit was 65 during the day, but you wouldn't get a ticket unless you were doing 80.
I agree with most of the safety features included with vehicles now. I also know that ABS took so long to reach our shores due to worries about litigation if they didn't work. Unfortuneatly, we are a litigious society, so American Manufactures must take a wait and see approach.
Now, in WI, we have a new dependancy upon radar and vascar. We are ticketed for 7 over the limit in our safer vehicles, but driving stupidity is not found from the median or overpass, where the Troopers await the speeders.
I appreciate the safer vehicles. I like the A.B.S, disagree with air bags, but I'm happy that they are there. I wish our society would take credit for their own mistakes and not have to place the blame elsewhere. I also wish that Wisconson didn't invest in the Federally Mandated Speed Limit so much to make it their meal ticket.
The bottom line, is that there is none. We all have our preferences. We have a Republican asking for more saftey features and we have Democrates asking for lazze-faire. To each their own, but as Phil said on "Hill Street Blues," "Let's be safe out there."
So off to the body shop I went, and since they are going to get out the black paint anyway...
I am wondering have seen a few picutures, Is their a aftermarket bumper skin that has exhaust pipe tips cut outs?
If I have to pay for it I would like to have ones that would look good w/ some performance exhaust. I saw this mod on the Borla LS car @ www.borla.com.
Any Suggestions??
So off to the body shop I went, and since they are going to get out the black paint anyway...
I am wondering have seen a few picutures, Is their a aftermarket bumper skin that has exhaust pipe tips cut outs?
If I have to pay for it I would like to have ones that would look good w/ some performance exhaust. I saw this mod on the Borla LS car @ www.borla.com.
Any Suggestions??
I think that most of us would agree that we want to protect ourselves from injury but we don't all agree as to what we need in our vehicles to protect ourselves. I could argue that air bags are more dangerous and AS makes us over confident or I could argue that they save lives. This is not what the real argument should be. The real argument is about the government taking away our choice in the matter.
I believe that I need to wear a seat belt when I'm in a car. I also believe that the Government is invading on my personal freedoms when a law is created that forces me to wear a seat belt/have air bags/live life in a bubble/stay safe.
The bottom line is that we should have the option of taking advantage of technology that will make our lives safer. We should not be forced to pay for or use technology just because some government agency thinks they need to decide what is best for us poor ignorant souls.
Brian
Packv12: I am a proud member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and I think you have Democrats and Republicans reversed. It is the Dems who wish to rule over the masses while we Republicans want Government to not intrude upon our lives.
I am considering purchasing the Wiring Diagram manual from Helm ( http://www.helminc.com ) for $60 to get this info. Does anyone have this manual? Any comments?
The different view is about the cost to society for people who shun even basic safety devices like motorcycle helmets and seat belts. Lack of these devices most definitely cause injuries and deaths that could be avoided by wearing them. Who pays for this? Insurance companies and hospitals. Insurance premiums go up. Taxes go up. Everyone pays for it. THAT is the problem I have with people who say it is their right whether they risk injury or death by not using basic safety devices. Your right to risk yourself is ok until it impacts the rest of us.
I am also passionate about the LS & hope we can regain focus on it.
I only ask that you remember your views should, God forbid, you ever end up in an accident where your injuries may have been mitigated by such a safety device. There are a lot of personal injury/product liability attorneys who would jump at the chance to rip into a car manufacturer's deep pockets for not including a safety device offering great safety value at little monetary cost.
Make sure you tell your attorney not to pursue such a claim, as it would violate your beliefs that you should be able to choose your own safety devices.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but I think the point is valid.
RE: cupholders. I just got off the phone with my parts department. He will sell the 2001 console top to anyone that wants one for $136 + applicable tax. They are:
Witt Lincoln/Mercury, Phone 760-233-3333. I don't think that they have an 800 number.
So far, only found one slight problem with the finish - looks like a couple of small chips on the paint on the top of the front bumper where it meets the side quarter panel. Only noticed because I was trying to inspect with a magnifying glass.
Haven't had a chance to really go over the whole thing, having too good of a time!
Thanks for all the great info here.
Jaime
Even though you don't plan to drive your LS during wet weather, my experience is that their main benefit is to keep the disk brake dust and general sand and dust from the road off the side of the car behind the wheels (especially the rear wheels).
If you have the Sport package, the wider tires stick out more than standard tires, and lots of junk collects along the bottom of the rear fender panel and somewhat behind the front wheels too. The splash guards reduce this by about 75%, and I think it is worth it. Besides, they don't look bad on the car, IMHO.
I live out here in the "desert Southwest" where we hardly ever see rain, but we sure do see dust. Also, the Sport disk brakes are pretty dirty. The splash guards actually help more in the dry weather than they do in the wet.
Whatever changes there are, I like to think we had some influence. About a year ago we all had opportunity to give Jim Rogers our wish list.
Tom...
Please send me the details of the flooding concerns you've had. I will have someone from Powertrain speak to you directly (Please include your phone #, servicing dealer, etc...).
My e-mail is rcupka@ford.com
Thank You
Dick
I just read Edmunds long-term road test on the 3 series. I don't get it. While I have nothing against the car, I do have a problem with what I feel is Edmunds biased reporting in favor of the BMW. Especially when you compare their flowery review against their typical critical review of the LS(Feb. long-term update was just posted).
Examples:
"This one example of the several ergonomic flaws in the car's secondary controls is kind of a pain in the neck, but you get used to it after a time," noted Cook.
"Mr. Reed relates: "What happens when a middle-aged guy, with middle-aged driving habits, is given the keys to a BMW 328i with a five-speed stick? Have you ever seen the old Disney cartoon about how mild-mannered Mr. Walker becomes the maniacal Mr. Wheeler when he gets into a car? Let's just say that a whole different personality seemed to be tapped by the performance and handling of this German bombshell. I had been in the car for only a few minutes when I found myself next to another BMW on an entrance ramp to the freeway. Normally, I would have backed off and let him merge. But now I was no longer Mr. Walker. I became Mr. Wheeler. I put my foot down. I won the short race and was rewarded with open road in front of the car's hood instead of the back end of someone else's car."
"But surprisingly, I think I actually had the seat up too high, because the rearview mirror sometimes blocked my view. I got over this inconvenience quickly, given the panoramic view out the rear window that the high seating position afforded me. I like the idea of leatherette upholstery — it's probably no stickier than leather in the summer and I don't have to cope with the guilt of knowing that cows gave up their skins for the sake of a fossil fuel-burning car with a finite existence."
"I wish this 328i had an auto-dimming rearview mirror, given its price (I see that you can get one for the 330i if you option it with the premium package) — the long-term Lincoln LS seems to have come standard with one. This feature reduces fatigue and lifts spirits during commutes, especially with so many SUVs on the road."
"There still seems to be a few of the lingering minor problems that I've noticed in the past. The mysterious rattle in the back is still there and the windows still creak when you roll them up. Even with these small problems, this car is still as much fun to drive as it was when new."
Now on the LS review what did we get?
Let's see... Oh Yeah, the rear view mirror isn't square enough. The woodgrain trim is plastic (but hey, we do have leather upholstery, not vinyl) and we do have a CD player included and not an option. And our test car didn't creak and we have an auto-dimming mirror!
So let's see if I've got this straight:
1. Car costs more.
2. Car creaks.
3. CD is an option.
4. Manual radio tuning is a nightmare of ergonomics.
5. Vinyl seats(Leatherette is man-made, after all, no matter what cute name you want to call it)
6. Rear-view mirror that blocks view when the seat is adjusted higher.
Please read the whole review. I'm just curious. Is it me or is Edmunds really playing favorites here?