This is JRoger19 checking in after a long absence. Well I found out today about the demise of the LS. This plus the announcement a few weeks ago that the Lincoln Mercury division is no more signals to me the end of a dream. Some of you remember the early years of the Lincoln LS, which for those of us at Lincoln at the time was a time when we thought we could really make something of the marque. I think that dream is no more.
While I have been away from Lincoln for some time, I still am very emotional about this.
In any case, all the best to those who bought a Lincoln LS!
Hello Jim, Nice to hear from you again. Yes the good old days of Lincoln and the 1st LS Mania in Irvine will be nothing more than a blip (if even that) on the Ford/Lincoln historical memoirs. I still have pictures on the wall from that great time that was had by all charter 2000 LS owners at the 1st LS mania and am still using the crystal clock from the 1st mania as well. Again would like to thank you for hosting that event and bringing demo LS's for us to run the obstacles courses with.
I am at a crossroads now in that my 2000LS V8 Sport has 85K miles and am starting to look for new wheels. Do I opt for the last year (2006) of the LS or move onto another make that will stay the course with RWD ~$35K priced solid performance sports luxury car? Any thoughts out there on what direction to go! What other makes and models will keep that smile on my face like the LS did when others tried to think they could out manuever me and the LS?
You & your team created a truly wonderful automobile. A pity it couldn't have continued & expanded as originally planned. My LS (one of the nine or so with a manual) has a bit over 86K on it and shows signs of lasting well past 100. Sometime in the next 2-3 years I'll replace it -- Infiniti, BMW, Cadillac & Audi are possibilities, in that order.
I still have my Mania clock on prominent display as well but, appropriately, it has stopped.
Jim, it's nice to hear from you again! Like yourself, I've away from this board for a while, even though I was a daily visitor back in 2000-2002, when my LS was a new car in my garage.
My wife and I still have the car, and are enjoying it, although some of the small, well known gremlins have hit. The rear window regulators recently died (finally!), and the RH exhaust manifold cracked. Personally, I think that the LH part also has cracked, as it's making the ticking noise associated with that problem. I took it back to the dealer who said, "It's a normal noise in the LS", only, I think, because the mechainc said it was such a pain to replace the RH part, he doesn't want to tackle another.
Otherwise, we're still impressed with the ride and handling of the LS, as well as it's really decent fuel economy, despite being a lively V-8. Too bad the advertising department basically ignored the car for the last few years, causing sales to "tank".
Care to comment on what you're currently up to? Thanks for all of your efforts to make the LS a true enthusiast's car, even if Lincoln's management didn't get it..........Leadfoot
Good to hear from you Jim. I still have my crystal clock working as well as my Lincoln ball point pen. I often cite the great factory support Lincoln had back then on these boards as THE model of how a car company should deal with its customers.
Todays: Thecarconnection.com has an article on the LS. Very poorly done IMO. Here is an excerpt: "It sold something north of 50,000 units in 2000 with the help of heavy incentives" Now if you were there buying a 2000 as I was, you know that dealers were getting full sticker for the most part and there were no incentives. I have already emailed the author pointing out the inaccuracies in the article and inquiring if he/she did any research.
Let me also say that it's great to hear from you again! When I was trying to order by 2000 V8 Sport back in Aug. 99 I was having a problem with the color selection. When the LS came out in May they were using the 99 model year Lincoln color Cordovan. When the 00 model year cars were introduced in late summer 99 Lincoln switched from Cordovan to Autumn Red, but the dealers did not have anything to show me what Autumn Red looked like and I wasn't about to order the car until I knew for sure. My dealer actually thought it was orange (it wasn't - that was Autumn Orange) so I was really worried.
Jim was kind enough to actually mail me a paint color chart so I could see the Autumn Red which turned out to be only slightly different from the Cordovan, so I ordered it.
This was just one example of Jim's commitment to the LS and Lincoln/Mercury. It was nice while it lasted.
Good luck to you, Jim. Whatever you're doing I know you'll be successful. L/M's loss will be someone else's gain.
Hello Jim from George and Whitney. Great to hear from you even under these circumstances.You folks back then in 2000 had a charted direction for Lincoln and great start down that road with the LS. A shame that the proverbial circumstances beyond your control took over. We still have our Autumn Red V6 manual. Still running strong at 65K. (I hate the HVAC system and the Lincoln field engineers - had to say it - but love everything else.) It's in the body shop now after a $4000 rear-ender :>( Even though I'm in a 270hp G35 rental, I'm lookin forward to getting my LS back. Jim was instrumental in me getting my LS. He actually had to find a dealer here that would order a manual LS for me. My dealer of choice refused to order it because they didn't want to "get stuck with a car no one wanted" if I backed out. That illustrates what Jim et al had to deal with to try to make Lincoln into something other than rolling couches. Dealers who wouldn't even order a manual tranny LS. Well, hope everything is well for you now, Jim. Take care.
I just realized that I own a 2000 LS AND a 2003 Aviator, both of which will be discontinued by next summer. And my first car was an Oldsmobile back in 1981. If I buy a mustang do you think they'll discontinue those, too??
Just got back from seeing the Orange County Choppers Lincoln theme bike that Lincoln is showcasing around the U.S. Since Lincoln has seemed to given up on attracting a younger age group to its car line by the demize of the LS. The 60+ crowd that is Lincoln's remaining base group could care less about a chopper as was apparent by the crowd at the dealer and the salespeople who all seemed to be more interested in comparing who had the most geritol tablets on them. When quizzed a saleperson about the demize of the LS they said that Lincoln was only stoppping the V6. Again another reason for Lincoln's fate as dealers only know and care about Town Cars and Navigators -- to bad after getting car of the year its inaugural year only to be axed in 6 years.
I thought Kerry was crowned the King of flip flopping!!
Ok so did you try educating this misinformed person? I've had to re-educate a bit.. then again, sit down with the manager, get other people in a huddle, and tell them to wake up a bit. Unfortunately they wish to sell you what's on the floor NOW, so they won't mention much about future products. They get amnesia all of a sudden. My usual line "Here's my number, and in the future (if you care enough to), call me when you information about the car".... THEN Suddenly... days later they'll call you back now, recovering from a moment of amnesia of days prior....
Is the LS dead, or will there be continuing LSess available for each model year, but a new generation coming out soon? What's the deal? So many rumors out there, and so many whiners about their car being dead! Sheesh, who's car doesn't eventually die in favor of a replacement? Well, then there's the Mark VIII.........
The LS will be offered in it's final year, for 2006 as a V8 standard vehicle. They thought the LS V6, and the Zephyr V6 would steal sales from one another. Plus more "capacity" is needed for the V6 in the Zephyr, hence, kill the V6 version of the LS.
In the next 2 years, you'll have the Duratec35 replace, where the Duratec30 once thrived in. But because of factories, allocations, output, vehicle introductions, etc. You can't just flip a switch and say, "Ok from now on, we build the Duratec35 to replace everything"...
Considering this stage one...
As for the "LS"... a vehicle will be introduced in 2007, as a 2008 that will replace it (but not with the LS name). But the vehicle dynamics will certainly be sportier (over the larger more luxurious sibling), with an emphansize of american luxury.
I am not whining that the LS is dead (RIP), if it had a replacement. The Zephyr just does not cut it as a LS replacement and a so called new "LS type" in 2008!! I for one can not wait till 2008 for a replacement of my 2000 LS. So because of the lack of a timely replacement for the LS I will move to another badge and that will be the end of my Lincoln experience as I will not be into TC's and Navigators no matter how blue my hair gets! Lincoln had a chance to keep me as a customer but they blew that by not building on what they had started out to do "be a BMW fighter" Looks like Cadillac is the only one (american badge) with the balls to stay the course and do something even though their product has some ways to go --even to the LS standard, but at least they are trying!
This has never happened before to my 04 LS Sport 8 (8,000 miles).
Went to start the car in the driveway Saturday afternoon.
Car kept spinning hit a point wher it wanted to start, but just kept spinning/point, spinning/point etc. Never did a just constant battery/starter spin. Always hit a point where it wanted to start, but didn't.
Let it sit ten minutes, came back, tried it again, after abour 4 spinning/point, the car started.
NV: COME ON, 'Whining'? You should know better. As for 'what car doesn't get dropped etc ...' how about the cars that the LS was initially targeted at, namely the BMWs. They've had the 3-series, 5-series, 7-series for decades. Other mfrs use the same name forever too - corolla, camry, accord, you get the picture.
I agree with cwz. To elaborate - the Zephyr was never meant to be an LS replacement. (BTW, was at my local LM dealer last week talking to salesman. Lincoln has more work to do as he thinks it's called the "Zeeeefer") Now we learn that there will be another vehicle in 2007/2008 which will replace the LS but will be called something else. Any ideas what it'll be called? Perhaps they could bring back the 'Premiere' name or better yet, the 'Versailles'. Course there are 2 famous Lincoln names just waiting to be re-introduced - the Mark and the Continental. Perhaps the new LS replacement will be called the Mark 9-LS (since we already have the Mark X-LT. That means the big brother new car is the new Continental. The LS itself will be dropped for good at end of 2006 with no more to built after June that year.
So anyway I dunno. I can't say I'll 'never' buy another Lincoln or Ford product. But this bailing out by Ford from a vehicle that 'couldda been a contenda' leaves a sour taste. Folks can go on about how the replacement will be better and will handle better yada yada, but the proof's in the puddin. And I've driven recent Volvos and while they're good, maybe great, they ain't no RWD 51-49 balanced LS.
Given the choice between a Lincoln-Volvo or a Lincoln-Mazda or a Lincoln-Ford pickup truck, what will the blue hairs do, that's what I wanna know. At least the dealers won't have to contend with how to sell a Lincoln-Jaguar anymore.
BTW, since it appears that all Ford engineering is now being done in Sweden or Japan, where have all the American engineers gone? Or did Nasser succeed in getting rid of them all?
Hello, all. I'm new to the forum and new to the LS world. Just bought a 2001 LS, beautiful car. It's kinda bare-bones for an LS (V6, no moonroof, no seating/steering memory, no message center), but it's in really great condition (nearly flawless inside and out, somebody obviously was very proud of it) and drives extremely well. What kind of caveats can I expect with this car - any known defects or expensive problems that are likely to crop up? I hope to enjoy this car for several years. Thanks!
You've probably purchased the best value on the planet for a luxury performance car.
Caveat? You'll find yourself looking for opportunities to drive somewhere ... anywhere. Curvy/twisty roads the most fun. Tell us if you experience the "LS Grin"
I don't get you guys, really! The car is still in production, sans the V-6, which IMO, was never necessary anyway, and the manual - same story for me - and will be replaced by a yet unknown product, which may be HOT. If not, we don't buy it, right? I am currently test driving an S-500, because Lincoln doesn't make an attractive sedan that is large enough for my likes - but I'm not pissed at them! I still love my Navigator, and if they put a car out there that is large, and luxurious (which the current Town Car no longer is) and powerful (which the current Town Car isn't really) and attractive inside (which IMO, the current Town Car is abysmal inside), I'll probably buy it. But I'm not pissed at Lincoln, and I also don't think Cadillac has anything going for it either, nor are they trying that hard, IMO.
Why get mad??? I may be back, I'll never say I won't.
There's the new Volvo S80 debuting next year, if maybe your need something. 2 I-6's, 1 Turbo-ed, and a V8. You might not have to wait for the Lincoln for too long...
NV: I am not mad, just hughly disappointed in that finally an american badge HAD a chance to compete in the foreign dominated luxury sports market with the LS and they drop the ball big time.
BTW: if the LS ends production in May 2006 why the lag time (2 model years) to introduce its so called replacement 2008 model? People looking to buy a LS replacement in 2006/2007 will have to look at other badged brands as there is a gapping hole left by the LS. What happened to discontinued models being replaced the next model year with the new better model!
I do not think that people are whining. I think, like I am, dissapointed with Lincoln, for not keeping the LS, or equivalent. The best bang for the buck in the luxury catagorey. I can always get another auto, they are just cars, but to find a domestic model that is way above the rest has been a long time in coming. When Before I got into my 2000Ls I lurked on these boards for awhile. I got hooked when I saw JRodgers and some of his crew adding to the boards. I liked the car and thought that their contributions were a big plus. As it turned out I had bad transmission problems and after about 8 months of NO FIX JRodgers got into the act and within a month I had a new 2001. Thanks, again, JR, now that I know that you are still aboard. I am now driving a 2003 and love it. How many car companies had this hands on approach by management. Sure its just a car. I am a happy camper when I feel comfortable with product and the company behind it. I think that they let me down by not keeping the management customer approach going and not keeping this cars direction going. What I have read about the future, and what the past few years have shown, the Lincoln marquee is in trouble.(Look at the numbers). Even though I am legally a 'blue hair' I also appreciate a great car. My opinion is that dissapointment is the conversation, not whining.
Dropped the ball? That implies they simply made bad decisions. The reality is Lincoln's budget, which was $2B and included development of at least 2 other vehicles, was cut to $600M OVERNIGHT due to Ford's financial crisis after the firestone fiasco. When you have limited cash you spend it where you can get the biggest return - witness the F150, Explorer and Mustang. It's disappointing but to me it's perfectly understandable.
“Dropped the ball? That implies they simply made bad decisions. The reality is Lincoln's budget, which was $2B and included development of at least 2 other vehicles, was cut to $600M OVERNIGHT due to Ford's financial crisis after the firestone fiasco. When you have limited cash you spend it where you can get the biggest return - witness the F150, Explorer and Mustang. It's disappointing but to me it's perfectly understandable.”
Warning – Dead Horse about to be Beaten . .
I do understand and appreciate the financial issues you mention. (There is an MBA degree [ mine ] in a drawer at home.) And no doubt it would have been difficult to continue development of LS II (or whatever) under financially worsening conditions . .
BUT!
But here is where we disagree: My view is that it is relatively easy to ‘decide’ to spend R&D dollars when there is a revenue stream to support it. The difficult decision is to continue R&D spending when the current (and near term expected) revenue stream does not support the expenditures.
The decision to borrow funds for such R&D efforts requires (it seems to me) a deep belief that the direction chosen is the right one. And in this case, the decision was made (likely at the Ford HQ, rather than at the L-M Div. Mgmt. level) to cut the budget for development of the (portions of the) future products that I cared about.
I see that ( a ) GM response to reductions in sales and revenue was (among other things) killing the RWD Zeta \ “G8” project. Or perhaps postponing it – for quite a long time.
I see this as a fundamental bad decision. In order to be positioned for the better financial times for all that will eventually come, in order to be able to sell cars in that time, I believe that GM (any car manufacturer) must have superior product. Then. Not at the end of a design cycle STARTING then. Good times likely will mean that GM (and Lincoln) will sell more cars. The old “Rising Tide Lifts All Car Manufacturers” adage.
But the telling difference will be how much more the good products sell than the (perceived to be) old, stale designs.
I don't disagree, Ray. But remember that Lincoln wasn't just putting out a few new products. They were entering an entirely new market segment for them and I think it was a very risky move to begin with. Would the public buy a sporty Lincoln? Could Lincoln really compete with the Europeans and Japanese in this market segment? Could they really sell Lincolns in Europe?
With Jaguar moving back upmarket I think there's room for a new RWD Lincoln platform IF they're successful with the new D3 and CD3 cars.
I would agree with the few vocal opponents to the early demise of our beloved Lincoln LS, or the DEW 98 Platform. Sure, it might be replaced by a chassis or body engineered replacement, but will it have the cache of the original LS?
Remember back into 1999, when an American Luxo-barge with Euro contentions where terrible riding and handling vehicles on anything but a mirror surface. At the time, the LS set the standard between the ride and handling compromise. Not to say that this avenue hadn’t been explored before, but never by and American Manufacture and with such success. That’s not quite correct, but American Manufactures never seemed get the correct compromise between ride and handling!
Now, we have a platform, which by Ford Standards, is relatively young. It has spawned the Thunderbird, but there has been little else. Granted, I know that the Jaguar S is a part of the Dew 98 family, but little else will come out of a worthy platform. I would like to mention though, that there is no mention of how long Jaguar will be using the Dew 98 Platform.
Many will point out that the Volvo and Mazda platforms are new, but how long have they been in engineering and how long have they been in production? What are the compromises of using the platforms as far as mounting points, suspension variety and inner panel sharing? Will a Lincoln that shares the Mazda Platform share the Mazda dashboard? Look at the original Road and Track test of the LS and Jaguar S, you can see where the switch ware is identical, very little change between the two, which equates to cost savings in manufacture for both Marques.
Everyone is hot to mention the Firestone Fiasco as for the demise of Lincoln slashed budgets. I seem to remember that marketing was transferred over to SUV’s, where profits were humongous, relative to automobiles and that cars were left to languish on the dealer’s lots. Many should remember the hotly contested sales race between Caddy and Lincoln, which Lincoln ended up winning by a narrow margin. The LS helped win this accolade (?) for Lincoln, but it really never mattered anyway.
I also wonder what happened to the Marketing Money for the LS, before the Firestone Fiasco? There were a few very good commercials, but where was the follow-up? One commercial about the “Stick-Shift” Lincoln, but no follow through. Had Lincoln spent a half of their SUV advertising budget on the LS, none of the discussion would be taken place. Face it, Lincoln introduced a diamond in the rough, but they used up all of the diamond cutters in their ads for the 1967 Ford LTD. Their last introduction into uncharted waters was their Mustang (1964) advertising, heck; they even did better with their 1970 Maverick campaign.
Dealer preparation was totally non-existent. I can still rattle of facts about the LS that the dealer has no idea about, and I’ve had mine for about six years. All of this from an owner that is not a navel-gazing narrow minded member of some club (I got banned), but it comes through follow through and knowledge of the vehicle. I agree that most dealers didn’t know how to deal with the LS, I’ve seen many LS’s traded in far too early, but the potential owners were never told about their car’s sporting intentions. It was sold as a shorter version of the Town Car, which it isn’t, even in non-sport mode. It turns out to be an example of a great handling and riding vehicle that is manufactured in the United States. None of these people fit into the cliché of the “Club”, but they are out there too and deserve honest answers. Heck, doesn’t everyone deserve to have an electronic idea of where to go?
All of this reminds me of an actual Automotive Engineer that I had contact with years ago. His complaint was that the automatic headlights weren’t adjustable on the LS for darkness. His response to this problem was priceless. Instead of changing “His” attitude, he had to change the vehicle. His fix to the alleged problem was to buy the four funnel set from Auto-Zone (Insert the automotive store you use) and trim them down. He would then place multiple ends of the funnel over the sensor to turn on his headlights earlier. I was impressed, but I did mention that I saved a lot of money since the headlight switch was right below my left hand. This didn’t play well, especially among some of the club members.
I hate to say this, but for the most part, LS owners are a spoiled bunch! Instead of enjoying the chassis stiffness and ride compliance, I read complaints about either, or. I remember the early complaints of the horse power and 0 – 60 times, but that’s not where I live. Everyone wanted their own demon out of the box, with out compromise. That’s not the reality of Auto Manufacture, everything is a compromise!
I was excited about the Dew 98 Platform and the Lincoln LS. I purchased mine in late August 1999 and took delivery in November 1999. There were no incentives and I got very little in the way of discounts, but every penny was worth it. I could have spent much more on a 7 series BMW with a V-12 (I always wanted a V-12), but there is no BMW dealer where I live. I’ve won most of the Drag-Races on the Illinois Toll-way, but not all of them. I’ve cruised at 130 m.p.h. on the way back from Rushmore, which was quite relaxed. I’m impressed as all get out of the early product, and if I had the money, surely a 2006 would be in my garage!
Mine has 79,000 wonderful miles and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I do suddenly feel like an owner of a Packard Patrician of the 1950’s, but I won’t go any further than this!
"All of this from an owner that is not a navel-gazing narrow minded member of some club (I got banned) . . ."
You and me both, guy. You and me both.
Interesting post (with which I agree, BTW), but we've gotten to the point where the six people who regularly inhabit this board (plus the occasional drop-in) continue to (thank you, Ray) beat a dead (really, really dead) horse. It's fairly clear no one else gives a rip.
Since I learned last week that the G35 coupe has fold-down rear seatbacks (that the sedan lacks & that I absolutely require), I've been researching it, as well as the 325 and others in much more depth. While I think my LS has lots of miles left in it, I'd really rather own a newer vehicle that's sold & serviced by an organization that has a clue regarding what it can do and why people choose it.
Oh, and all the cars I'm looking at have RWD & a man. . .
Never mind. You've all heard it before. There are no new readers of this board.
"Would the public buy a sporty Lincoln? Could Lincoln really compete with the Europeans and Japanese in this market segment? Could they really sell Lincolns in Europe? "
The answer to the first question is yes.
The answer to the second question was yes.
The third question should never have been asked.
Room for a new RWD Lincoln? Yes, there's room - right between the Zeeeefer and the smaller of the new sedans. Will there be one?
If the D3 and CD3 are successful? NO, because Ford will think they've found the answer and it is Volvo.
If they are not successful? NO because the jig will then be up for Lincoln. All there'll be is Ford and Volvo. The rest- LM, Jag, LRover, AM, etc are so close to unviable now that it won't take much to knock em over.
Besides, with gas, enviro-nuts, etc, Bill 'Mr Green Jeans' Ford will be putting most of Ford's R&D into gas saving vehicles from here on, and that don't spell Lincoln.
Let's discuss what we're planning to drive next, now that the LS is dead. Ray's gone with a Pontiac and Allen is lusting for a Mustang.
Up until a few days ago, I'd assumed that my first choice (if my LS were totalled tomorrow), would be the G35 sedan. But, it has those (to me) totally useless reclining rear seats, which eliminate the fold-down option that I need to be able to put my bicycle in the car. I learned that the coupe does have the fold-downs. Hmmm. . . Now it's time to study, and I have. The G35 coupe is the baseline.
The 325 BMW is right in there, if it weren't for the run-flat tire concept, the price & the (lack of) reliability. No spare & a tire that, if it does get a puncture, needs to be replaced. I'm a full-size spare kind of guy. This is so far the other way, it makes my head spin. However, if I'm willing to take a chance on the long-term reliability and pay the $3 - 5 K (relative to the G) premium, the fuel mileage is a major plus & the "ultimate. . . " would be nice. Besides which, it comes with one of the best real reds available. And then there's that European Delivery thing. A lot of people look at the cost of the flight as a negative. I tend to look at the elimination of a rental vehicle, plus the lower price, plus the joy of driving your own vehicle through the places you've learned to love in Switzerland & Austria, as major positives. However, I'm scared s**tless (that's spitless) of the long-term maintenance of the bells & whistles.
The Lexus I-300 is too "boy racer" for my taste, but the 250 & 350 are reported to be much less so. The 250 comes with an actual manual transmission and will probably be a very interesting vehicle. Problem is, it's vapourware at the moment. It's not available, and when it is, it'll be the dreaded "first year." I endured that with the LS, but don't want to again. If I had to do it, though, Toyota would probably be the company to do it with (as opposed to Lincoln/Ford).
I'd buy an Audi A3 Tdi with a manual tomorrow, if it were available in North America. It's not. Generally, I'm all about RWD, or AWD in a pinch, but I had such a blast a few years ago with a rented A3 in Germany that I'd bend/break my rules. Cost of long-term ownership is an issue with Audi as well.
I still need to research the CTS. With luck, they've got a proper "build your own" website. Stay tuned.
Anyway, it's interesting, at least to me, that when I bought my LS five or so years ago, many of these choices weren't there. You could buy the LS, the BMW, or. . .nothing.
Now there are several choices, and the LS is not among them.
Well, I haven't had a chance to experience the "LS grin" in my car yet, but my in-laws have a loaded '02 LS with V8, moonroof, and all the other bells and whistles, and I think I actually scared them a couple of times the first time I drove it. I'm sure I was grinning quite a bit at the time. Lots of very twisty roads here in Tennessee, and as it seemed to stick to them like glue, I was probably letting it roll down the roads a bit faster than I should have been. I've been kinda itching for a chance to drive mine more than back and forth to work, and that'll happen this weekend, when we head south to the Sunshine State on a late-season vacation. I'm now anticipating vacation for more reasons than sun, surf, and relaxation - I'm actually looking forward to the trip itself instead of just the destination.
Just hope I can afford the gas down there and back...
"but little else will come out of a worthy platform. I would like to mention though, that there is no mention of how long Jaguar will be using the Dew 98 Platform"
As of this moment, the DEW98 platform will continue for another 2 generation cycles, roughly about 8-10 years. The XJ and XK also are based on this platform, and there's currently talk of a possible "people mover" off the same platform as well. Granted, these are all aluminum versions DEW98's.
"Many will point out that the Volvo and Mazda platforms are new, but how long have they been in engineering and how long have they been in production?"
In the case of the Mazda6 for example, it was engineered around 2001..whereas DEW98 is older by 4years (engineering wise that is). It wasn't till the media and Ford noticed that the Mazda6 platform was very successful, till they made plans to produce more vehicles off of it.
As for Volvo, the original platform dates back to around that of the Dew98 platform, but as the new version of it (on the 500/Mont/FS), the substantial effort of re-engineering it, has resulted in a more advanced platform (as compared to others in it's league). And when the Lincoln sedans debut, they themselves AT THAT TIME, will be more advanced than the current 500/Month/FS, and partially equal to that of the next Volvo S80, in the terms of structural integrity/stiffness/sophistication.
"What are the compromises of using the platforms as far as mounting points, suspension variety and inner panel sharing?"
Most of those items can be tailored to be specific to a brand. The suspension tuning is different amongst the Zephyr, Milan, Fusion, all depending on the role they wish to accomplish. It's an easy adjustment, that will yield noticeable differences. Even the sound absorbing/insulation is tailored, to the specific brand. Essentially, amongst those 3 vehicles, only the roof panel is shared... Now the things you don't see, such as wiring harnesses, electronics, etc, are items which result is time/cost savings.
Using the same platform (as used on another vehicles within the company) can easily cut 12-14 months of engineering time. Which in turn, adds reliability using common components tried and tested, cost savings, and allows the product to reach consumers in less time.
"Will a Lincoln that shares the Mazda Platform share the Mazda dashboard?"
Nope, sizes are different, since the Zephyr uses an updated Mazda6 platform, CD3. It is essentially a Mazda6 platform, but a bit bigger, with a stronger focus on side impact protection. Although, the F/M/Z vehicles will essentially be the same vehicle, and buttons (between the Milan and Fusion) are located in the same places, but the Zephyr has a different layout, vent shapes/sizes, etc, will differ.
The difference between the Fusion/Milan are as those of the GrandMarquis to Crown Vic, whereas sitting in the Zephyr, won't share the kinship of the other 2, OR be as evident.
If Ford was smart they'd just give the platform a new code and tell everyone it's brand new and engineered in Detroit. Nobody would EVER know the difference. Platform sharing is NOT the same thing as rebadging and never has been. It would be really stupid for Ford to take a perfectly good platform and NOT reuse it.
And I can't believe Ford was SO stupid as to put their marketing dollars on SUVs where they were making $10K per vehicle and selling hundreds of thousands of them whereas the LS was selling 50K in it's best year and making almost nothing. What idiots! Do they think they're running a business where profit is the bottom line?
“It wasn't till the media and Ford noticed that the Mazda6 platform was very successful, till they made plans to produce more vehicles off of it.”
The Media now determines what is best for Auto Production? Where the hell have I been all this time?
As for Volvo, the original platform dates back to around that of the Dew98 platform, but as the new version of it (on the 500/Mont/FS), the substantial effort of re-engineering it, has resulted in a more advanced platform (as compared to others in it's league). And when the Lincoln sedans debut, they themselves AT THAT TIME, will be more advanced than the current 500/Month/FS, and partially equal to that of the next Volvo S80, in the terms of structural integrity/stiffness/sophistication.
Would this be like to Mustang remaining on a “Modified” Fox Platform since 1985?
Most of those items can be tailored to be specific to a brand. The suspension tuning is different amongst the Zephyr, Milan, Fusion, all depending on the role they wish to accomplish. It's an easy adjustment, that will yield noticeable differences. Even the sound absorbing/insulation is tailored, to the specific brand. Essentially, amongst those 3 vehicles, only the roof panel is shared... Now the things you don't see, such as wiring harnesses, electronics, etc, are items which result is time/cost savings.
Excuse me, but isn’t platform sharing all about “Hard Points”? Suspension Pick Up points are determined by the Platform, so there is NO variability! Adjust the suspension, yes; it can be tuned to a certain extent, but it is always limited to the basic platform!
The difference between the Fusion/Milan are as those of the GrandMarquis to Crown Vic, whereas sitting in the Zephyr, won't share the kinship of the other 2, OR be as evident.
Dear Lord. I hope not! The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis have been around since the 1977 downsize. Yes, they’ve come across with the “Hydro-Formed” Chassis and they have updated the suspension, but separately and not as a package! Much like the Mustang Upgrade of 1990’s, tweak the platform and tell the consumers that it’s new. Much like the Taurus of 1996, extensively tweak the platform and tell the consumer that it’s new and improved. Is that where we really want Ford Motor to go, I don’t think so. How many new platforms have Toyota and Honda brought through the gates in the same time period?
Your engineering is lacking! You are relying on antiquated platforms! You will be your own death knell, since you don’t want to listen to what the consumers on this site are telling you. Your blind and absolute denunciation of all posters reminds me of the book, “The Whiz Kids”, by John A. Byrne. Let’s ignore what the public wants and we will give the public what we think they want!??
Our argument is the loss of the Lincoln LS, nothing more, nothing less. When we were here in the late 1990’s, we were given a line of sophisticated hoopla. Those that survived are wondering if maybe the “Brown Acid” may not have been a better alternative. It has very little to do with what Lincoln will replace the LS with; it has more to do with the lack of Lincoln’s failure to carry through with the promise of the LS.
ANT 14, I’ll be honest with you. As far as I know, you are no Jonathon Crocker, and I doubt that you’ve sailed the new Zephyr around Nuremberg, which our beloved LS was tested. If you are only acting as concierge service for Lincoln and have nothing to say but platitudes, please stay in the recycle section to the right (As in right Lane)!
Wow, man, you're brutal! ANT has been nothing but honest and helpful to the members here while absorbing a ton of vitriol from the posters here IMO. Lincoln is currently not where the LS was heading, for whatever reason. But Volvo and Jaguar are better due to Ford's engineering than they've ever been. Jag and Land Rover have been saved by Ford - they'd be gone now without them. That's worth something. Ford doesn't always do everything right, but they don't do everything wrong either. I see a fair amount of effort being made by them to make a good product on many levels. Only Toyota never makes a mistake (so far), but if you play it that safe, it's easier to do.
"If Ford was smart they'd just give the platform a new code and tell everyone it's brand new and engineered in Detroit. Nobody would EVER know the difference"
Actually, that's what many competitors do...
PackV,
"The Media now determines what is best for Auto Production? Where the hell have I been all this time? "
To a certain degree, yes actually they do. If the media doesn't like a specific vehicle, don't expect them to write any positive reviews on it... No matter how good the rest of the package will be, they won't let it go.
"Would this be like to Mustang remaining on a “Modified” Fox Platform since 1985?
And prior to that, I believe it dates from 1979 If I remember correctly...
"Much like the Taurus of 1996, extensively tweak the platform and tell the consumer that it’s new and improved. Is that where we really want Ford Motor to go, I don’t think so. How many new platforms have Toyota and Honda brought through the gates in the same time period?"
Shhhhhhh, they too have been using the same platform for quite sometime. Yet "the media" won't harp on that. There's no set standard as to what makes a platform "brand new", so every generation of their platform they state is "brand new"...yet, the origins of it go back quite a bit. Just how the new Mustang is a "new" platform, but it's origins are based on the DEW98 platform...just everything has been altered so much, they gave the platform it's own designation. Jag XJ also had a "brand new platform" supposedly. It's DEW98 based, but because it's aluminum, it's deemed "brand new".
"You are relying on antiquated platforms! "
So in reference to the manufacturers you stated, the origins of their platforms have been around for quite some time but if your buying into the media statements that it's totally brand new too, then it's pointless. And amazingly, they TOO have antiquated platform, in fact.... some of their vehicles have longer cycles than Fords. The Land Cruiser/LX470 is one of them, as some of their trucks as well. But they have there reasons as to why they do not re-engineer them as often.
So now in the case of the LS replacement platform ...which is being designed to be more sophisticated and stronger all around, without losing the drivability bite of the current LS, and your stating. "You are relying on antiquated platforms! " ?? The new platform isn't antiquated considering it will meet and exceed known safety standards that will be implemented in the next 5 years (Something the current DEW98 won't match as well without major modifications), while exceeding engineering for competitive vehicles when it does debut at that time. Therefore I fail to see the "antiquation" your stating.
Currently changes in platforms are taking place, so the "antiquation" label doesn't hold. Let me run through a few...
The C180-Focus-US thanks to it, and it's worldwide accolades it has received because of it's trim dimensions offering big interiors, and it's drivability, allowed C1 to be born. All C1 is, a more robust C180, with concentration on side impact performance.
C1, basis of Euro Focus, Mazda3, VolvoS40, C70, Mazda-5, Next Freelander, known for the above mentioned attributes...That platform already exceeds mandated safety standards for the new few years... The competition hasn't yet caught up, and the few that have, haven't been able to match the flexibility, nor fun to drive factor of that platform (as the media keeps harping about).
CD3 stems from Mazda6, basis for the new Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, the "Edge", Mazda Cx-7, next Lincoln Aviator... A few other vehicles will debut from this platform. Drivability and safety being key priority points on this platform.
Volvo's P2, S60, S80, Xc70, Xc90 (these vehicles go onto the improved D3 basis in their next redesign)
From it, improved D3 stems 500/FS/Mont...and a pair of "people movers" to be introduced soon.
From it, stems future D286, D386, which are LS replacement and next flagship sedan.
Mustang stems from DEW98 origins, yet it's new.
Miata-Rx-7 New...
GT- New...
Explorers platform just received a major redesign that keeps it ahead of other BOF competitors, mainly because of the enclosed structural, fully boxed frame construction, while offering independent rear suspension. The "antiquated" competitors are still using crude rear suspension systems.
Expedition, to debut in a new T-1 platform along with the Navi, and Expy-Max... to be shared with the next F-150 which gets redesigned in a (very speedy for the segment) life cycle of just 4 years. Current platform is just hitting it's midlife point (yet, much fresher than the competition has-even Toyota's Land Cruiser--shocking).... And again, the Expy/Navi feature independant rear suspensions...the "antiquated" competitors are still using crude devices...
F-150 is on a new platform, but as I just stated, it's going to an even newer one very shortly.
GM/CV/TC "Panther platform", I dislike it... and it's origins are from long ago, but durability, safety and profittabiliy, keep it alive. Other manufacturer's wish they could make a profit as easily as these can put out, with hardly any initial investments.
Taurus platform, killed... Taking it with it, the Freestar/Monterey.. Could be considered "Antiquated", but people saved from severe impacts in that platform would state otherwise.
Escape/Mariner/Tribute platform based on a heavily modified 626 platform, will receive another mission, running at 6 years, which for a platform it's "midlife". Better to kill it at the 8 year mark and introduce it on another platform.
Ranger is the only platform I believe could be called "antiquated" at this point. But with a shrinking market for that segment, it hasn't received much attention.
So aside from maybe 2 platforms (in my opinion), I don't see how your comment..."You are relying on antiquated platforms!" can stick.
Mind you, Land Rover, Jaguar, Aston Martin themselves have spawned more vehicles in new platforms throughout these changed stated above which I won't dwell on. And ALL this, while the company is facing financial setbacks- I would say it's pretty impressive overall....
Isn't it interesting that people are debating (and debasing) platforms that aren't even available to the public yet? The CD3 (Zephyr, Fusion, Milan) is just now coming out of the factory and no test drives have been published yet. Nothing is known about the D3 cars except the platform and AWD. All they hear is Mazda this or Volvo that and FWD and they automatically turn up their noses. Is it asking too much to actually DRIVE one of these cars before you start bashing it? Or is that not a good idea because you might find that you were wrong?
People said the same thing about the solid rear axle on the mustang. Until they drove it. Now you don't hear anything about it at all because it's a non issue.
And like Ant said - if you think Honda and Toyota have lots of new platforms you haven't been paying attention.
Hi folks. OK. I've struck a deal on a certified '02 LS V8 Sport. Just waiting till they fix some things and I'll go back in Tuesday to actually drive this particular car (drove a couple of LSs that they had on hand, but the deal is for THIS particular one, so the final signing is contingent upon me driving it).
SO... there's alot of pages of messages here ... really too much to sift through without investing serious time. I guess it boils down to one question ... does anyone think I should NOT buy one? And, if so, why not?
thanks.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You should love the car. They are very undervalued as a performance car, and 99% of them are very reliable and trouble free. The 2000 M/Y were a little problematic due to initial entry issues. Otherwise, they're great. I would buy one, if they were larger.
I have an 02 LS V8 Sport that I bought 15 months ago with 13,000 on it and have had no problems with it. It is the best car I have ever owned after owning both domestic luxury and european vehicles.
I ordered a 2001 from the factory and 66000 miles later I don't regret it at all. The only gripe I've had is with the automatic HVAC system. Other than that, this is one great car.
I don't want to muddy the waters at this point, but I will anyway:>) - There were a number of significant improvements made to the 2003 models. Have you considered that?
Comments
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0508/23/C01-289382.htm
While I have been away from Lincoln for some time, I still am very emotional about this.
In any case, all the best to those who bought a Lincoln LS!
Best regards,
Jim Rogers
Nice to hear from you again. Yes the good old days of Lincoln and the 1st LS Mania in Irvine will be nothing more than a blip (if even that) on the Ford/Lincoln historical memoirs. I still have pictures on the wall from that great time that was had by all charter 2000 LS owners at the 1st LS mania and am still using the crystal clock from the 1st mania as well. Again would like to thank you for hosting that event and bringing demo LS's for us to run the obstacles courses with.
I am at a crossroads now in that my 2000LS V8 Sport has 85K miles and am starting to look for new wheels. Do I opt for the last year (2006) of the LS or move onto another make that will stay the course with RWD ~$35K priced solid performance sports luxury car? Any thoughts out there on what direction to go! What other makes and models will keep that smile on my face like the LS did when others tried to think they could out manuever me and the LS?
You & your team created a truly wonderful automobile. A pity it couldn't have continued & expanded as originally planned. My LS (one of the nine or so with a manual) has a bit over 86K on it and shows signs of lasting well past 100. Sometime in the next 2-3 years I'll replace it -- Infiniti, BMW, Cadillac & Audi are possibilities, in that order.
I still have my Mania clock on prominent display as well but, appropriately, it has stopped.
All the best in your future endeavours!
Steve
Best regards,
Jim Rogers”
Always good to see a post from you, Jim!
All the best to you, as well.
Hope your business (and personal) life has been fruitful since your departure from L-M?
- Ray
Drove many miles in both a Y2K and a 2003 LS . . .
My wife and I still have the car, and are enjoying it, although some of the small, well known gremlins have hit. The rear window regulators recently died (finally!), and the RH exhaust manifold cracked. Personally, I think that the LH part also has cracked, as it's making the ticking noise associated with that problem. I took it back to the dealer who said, "It's a normal noise in the LS", only, I think, because the mechainc said it was such a pain to replace the RH part, he doesn't want to tackle another.
Otherwise, we're still impressed with the ride and handling of the LS, as well as it's really decent fuel economy, despite being a lively V-8. Too bad the advertising department basically ignored the car for the last few years, causing sales to "tank".
Care to comment on what you're currently up to? Thanks for all of your efforts to make the LS a true enthusiast's car, even if Lincoln's management didn't get it..........Leadfoot
Todays: Thecarconnection.com has an article on the LS. Very poorly done IMO. Here is an excerpt: "It sold something north of 50,000 units in 2000 with the help of heavy incentives" Now if you were there buying a 2000 as I was, you know that dealers were getting full sticker for the most part and there were no incentives. I have already emailed the author pointing out the inaccuracies in the article and inquiring if he/she did any research.
Jim was kind enough to actually mail me a paint color chart so I could see the Autumn Red which turned out to be only slightly different from the Cordovan, so I ordered it.
This was just one example of Jim's commitment to the LS and Lincoln/Mercury. It was nice while it lasted.
Good luck to you, Jim. Whatever you're doing I know you'll be successful. L/M's loss will be someone else's gain.
We still have our Autumn Red V6 manual. Still running strong at 65K. (I hate the HVAC system and the Lincoln field engineers - had to say it - but love everything else.) It's in the body shop now after a $4000 rear-ender :>( Even though I'm in a 270hp G35 rental, I'm lookin forward to getting my LS back.
Jim was instrumental in me getting my LS. He actually had to find a dealer here that would order a manual LS for me. My dealer of choice refused to order it because they didn't want to "get stuck with a car no one wanted" if I backed out. That illustrates what Jim et al had to deal with to try to make Lincoln into something other than rolling couches. Dealers who wouldn't even order a manual tranny LS.
Well, hope everything is well for you now, Jim. Take care.
I bought a new 2003 TBird (A-Z plan) and a new 2004 LS8 Sport (A-Z plan plus discounts).
Fooled twice.
Good thing I'm not a gambler.
I thought Kerry was crowned the King of flip flopping!!
The LS will be offered in it's final year, for 2006 as a V8 standard vehicle. They thought the LS V6, and the Zephyr V6 would steal sales from one another. Plus more "capacity" is needed for the V6 in the Zephyr, hence, kill the V6 version of the LS.
In the next 2 years, you'll have the Duratec35 replace, where the Duratec30 once thrived in. But because of factories, allocations, output, vehicle introductions, etc. You can't just flip a switch and say, "Ok from now on, we build the Duratec35 to replace everything"...
Considering this stage one...
As for the "LS"... a vehicle will be introduced in 2007, as a 2008 that will replace it (but not with the LS name). But the vehicle dynamics will certainly be sportier (over the larger more luxurious sibling), with an emphansize of american luxury.
Went to start the car in the driveway Saturday afternoon.
Car kept spinning hit a point wher it wanted to start, but just kept spinning/point, spinning/point etc. Never did a just constant battery/starter spin. Always hit a point where it wanted to start, but didn't.
Let it sit ten minutes, came back, tried it again, after abour 4 spinning/point, the car started.
Been OK since.
I agree with cwz. To elaborate - the Zephyr was never meant to be an LS replacement. (BTW, was at my local LM dealer last week talking to salesman. Lincoln has more work to do as he thinks it's called the "Zeeeefer") Now we learn that there will be another vehicle in 2007/2008 which will replace the LS but will be called something else. Any ideas what it'll be called? Perhaps they could bring back the 'Premiere' name or better yet, the 'Versailles'. Course there are 2 famous Lincoln names just waiting to be re-introduced - the Mark and the Continental. Perhaps the new LS replacement will be called the Mark 9-LS (since we already have the Mark X-LT. That means the big brother new car is the new Continental. The LS itself will be dropped for good at end of 2006 with no more to built after June that year.
So anyway I dunno. I can't say I'll 'never' buy another Lincoln or Ford product. But this bailing out by Ford from a vehicle that 'couldda been a contenda' leaves a sour taste. Folks can go on about how the replacement will be better and will handle better yada yada, but the proof's in the puddin. And I've driven recent Volvos and while they're good, maybe great, they ain't no RWD 51-49 balanced LS.
Given the choice between a Lincoln-Volvo or a Lincoln-Mazda or a Lincoln-Ford pickup truck, what will the blue hairs do, that's what I wanna know. At least the dealers won't have to contend with how to sell a Lincoln-Jaguar anymore.
BTW, since it appears that all Ford engineering is now being done in Sweden or Japan, where have all the American engineers gone? Or did Nasser succeed in getting rid of them all?
Thanks!
Caveat? You'll find yourself looking for opportunities to drive somewhere ... anywhere. Curvy/twisty roads the most fun. Tell us if you experience the "LS Grin"
Why get mad??? I may be back, I'll never say I won't.
BTW: if the LS ends production in May 2006 why the lag time (2 model years) to introduce its so called replacement 2008 model? People looking to buy a LS replacement in 2006/2007 will have to look at other badged brands as there is a gapping hole left by the LS. What happened to discontinued models being replaced the next model year with the new better model!
Warning – Dead Horse about to be Beaten . .
I do understand and appreciate the financial issues you mention. (There is an MBA degree [ mine ] in a drawer at home.) And no doubt it would have been difficult to continue development of LS II (or whatever) under financially worsening conditions . .
BUT!
But here is where we disagree: My view is that it is relatively easy to ‘decide’ to spend R&D dollars when there is a revenue stream to support it. The difficult decision is to continue R&D spending when the current (and near term expected) revenue stream does not support the expenditures.
The decision to borrow funds for such R&D efforts requires (it seems to me) a deep belief that the direction chosen is the right one. And in this case, the decision was made (likely at the Ford HQ, rather than at the L-M Div. Mgmt. level) to cut the budget for development of the (portions of the) future products that I cared about.
I see that ( a ) GM response to reductions in sales and revenue was (among other things) killing the RWD Zeta \ “G8” project. Or perhaps postponing it – for quite a long time.
I see this as a fundamental bad decision. In order to be positioned for the better financial times for all that will eventually come, in order to be able to sell cars in that time, I believe that GM (any car manufacturer) must have superior product. Then. Not at the end of a design cycle STARTING then. Good times likely will mean that GM (and Lincoln) will sell more cars. The old “Rising Tide Lifts All Car Manufacturers” adage.
But the telling difference will be how much more the good products sell than the (perceived to be) old, stale designs.
As always, I reserve the right to be wrong.
We’ll see.
- Ray
Not Mad, but rather sad . .
With Jaguar moving back upmarket I think there's room for a new RWD Lincoln platform IF they're successful with the new D3 and CD3 cars.
Remember back into 1999, when an American Luxo-barge with Euro contentions where terrible riding and handling vehicles on anything but a mirror surface. At the time, the LS set the standard between the ride and handling compromise. Not to say that this avenue hadn’t been explored before, but never by and American Manufacture and with such success. That’s not quite correct, but American Manufactures never seemed get the correct compromise between ride and handling!
Now, we have a platform, which by Ford Standards, is relatively young. It has spawned the Thunderbird, but there has been little else. Granted, I know that the Jaguar S is a part of the Dew 98 family, but little else will come out of a worthy platform. I would like to mention though, that there is no mention of how long Jaguar will be using the Dew 98 Platform.
Many will point out that the Volvo and Mazda platforms are new, but how long have they been in engineering and how long have they been in production? What are the compromises of using the platforms as far as mounting points, suspension variety and inner panel sharing? Will a Lincoln that shares the Mazda Platform share the Mazda dashboard? Look at the original Road and Track test of the LS and Jaguar S, you can see where the switch ware is identical, very little change between the two, which equates to cost savings in manufacture for both Marques.
Everyone is hot to mention the Firestone Fiasco as for the demise of Lincoln slashed budgets. I seem to remember that marketing was transferred over to SUV’s, where profits were humongous, relative to automobiles and that cars were left to languish on the dealer’s lots. Many should remember the hotly contested sales race between Caddy and Lincoln, which Lincoln ended up winning by a narrow margin. The LS helped win this accolade (?) for Lincoln, but it really never mattered anyway.
I also wonder what happened to the Marketing Money for the LS, before the Firestone Fiasco? There were a few very good commercials, but where was the follow-up? One commercial about the “Stick-Shift” Lincoln, but no follow through. Had Lincoln spent a half of their SUV advertising budget on the LS, none of the discussion would be taken place. Face it, Lincoln introduced a diamond in the rough, but they used up all of the diamond cutters in their ads for the 1967 Ford LTD. Their last introduction into uncharted waters was their Mustang (1964) advertising, heck; they even did better with their 1970 Maverick campaign.
Dealer preparation was totally non-existent. I can still rattle of facts about the LS that the dealer has no idea about, and I’ve had mine for about six years. All of this from an owner that is not a navel-gazing narrow minded member of some club (I got banned), but it comes through follow through and knowledge of the vehicle. I agree that most dealers didn’t know how to deal with the LS, I’ve seen many LS’s traded in far too early, but the potential owners were never told about their car’s sporting intentions. It was sold as a shorter version of the Town Car, which it isn’t, even in non-sport mode. It turns out to be an example of a great handling and riding vehicle that is manufactured in the United States. None of these people fit into the cliché of the “Club”, but they are out there too and deserve honest answers. Heck, doesn’t everyone deserve to have an electronic idea of where to go?
All of this reminds me of an actual Automotive Engineer that I had contact with years ago. His complaint was that the automatic headlights weren’t adjustable on the LS for darkness. His response to this problem was priceless. Instead of changing “His” attitude, he had to change the vehicle. His fix to the alleged problem was to buy the four funnel set from Auto-Zone (Insert the automotive store you use) and trim them down. He would then place multiple ends of the funnel over the sensor to turn on his headlights earlier. I was impressed, but I did mention that I saved a lot of money since the headlight switch was right below my left hand. This didn’t play well, especially among some of the club members.
I hate to say this, but for the most part, LS owners are a spoiled bunch! Instead of enjoying the chassis stiffness and ride compliance, I read complaints about either, or. I remember the early complaints of the horse power and 0 – 60 times, but that’s not where I live. Everyone wanted their own demon out of the box, with out compromise. That’s not the reality of Auto Manufacture, everything is a compromise!
I was excited about the Dew 98 Platform and the Lincoln LS. I purchased mine in late August 1999 and took delivery in November 1999. There were no incentives and I got very little in the way of discounts, but every penny was worth it. I could have spent much more on a 7 series BMW with a V-12 (I always wanted a V-12), but there is no BMW dealer where I live. I’ve won most of the Drag-Races on the Illinois Toll-way, but not all of them. I’ve cruised at 130 m.p.h. on the way back from Rushmore, which was quite relaxed. I’m impressed as all get out of the early product, and if I had the money, surely a 2006 would be in my garage!
Mine has 79,000 wonderful miles and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I do suddenly feel like an owner of a Packard Patrician of the 1950’s, but I won’t go any further than this!
You and me both, guy. You and me both.
Interesting post (with which I agree, BTW), but we've gotten to the point where the six people who regularly inhabit this board (plus the occasional drop-in) continue to (thank you, Ray) beat a dead (really, really dead) horse. It's fairly clear no one else gives a rip.
Since I learned last week that the G35 coupe has fold-down rear seatbacks (that the sedan lacks & that I absolutely require), I've been researching it, as well as the 325 and others in much more depth. While I think my LS has lots of miles left in it, I'd really rather own a newer vehicle that's sold & serviced by an organization that has a clue regarding what it can do and why people choose it.
Oh, and all the cars I'm looking at have RWD & a man. . .
Never mind. You've all heard it before. There are no new readers of this board.
The answer to the first question is yes.
The answer to the second question was yes.
The third question should never have been asked.
Room for a new RWD Lincoln? Yes, there's room - right between the Zeeeefer and the smaller of the new sedans. Will there be one?
If the D3 and CD3 are successful? NO, because Ford will think they've found the answer and it is Volvo.
If they are not successful? NO because the jig will then be up for Lincoln. All there'll be is Ford and Volvo. The rest- LM, Jag, LRover, AM, etc are so close to unviable now that it won't take much to knock em over.
Besides, with gas, enviro-nuts, etc, Bill 'Mr Green Jeans' Ford will be putting most of Ford's R&D into gas saving vehicles from here on, and that don't spell Lincoln.
Up until a few days ago, I'd assumed that my first choice (if my LS were totalled tomorrow), would be the G35 sedan. But, it has those (to me) totally useless reclining rear seats, which eliminate the fold-down option that I need to be able to put my bicycle in the car. I learned that the coupe does have the fold-downs. Hmmm. . . Now it's time to study, and I have. The G35 coupe is the baseline.
The 325 BMW is right in there, if it weren't for the run-flat tire concept, the price & the (lack of) reliability. No spare & a tire that, if it does get a puncture, needs to be replaced. I'm a full-size spare kind of guy. This is so far the other way, it makes my head spin. However, if I'm willing to take a chance on the long-term reliability and pay the $3 - 5 K (relative to the G) premium, the fuel mileage is a major plus & the "ultimate. . . " would be nice. Besides which, it comes with one of the best real reds available. And then there's that European Delivery thing. A lot of people look at the cost of the flight as a negative. I tend to look at the elimination of a rental vehicle, plus the lower price, plus the joy of driving your own vehicle through the places you've learned to love in Switzerland & Austria, as major positives. However, I'm scared s**tless (that's spitless) of the long-term maintenance of the bells & whistles.
The Lexus I-300 is too "boy racer" for my taste, but the 250 & 350 are reported to be much less so. The 250 comes with an actual manual transmission and will probably be a very interesting vehicle. Problem is, it's vapourware at the moment. It's not available, and when it is, it'll be the dreaded "first year." I endured that with the LS, but don't want to again. If I had to do it, though, Toyota would probably be the company to do it with (as opposed to Lincoln/Ford).
I'd buy an Audi A3 Tdi with a manual tomorrow, if it were available in North America. It's not. Generally, I'm all about RWD, or AWD in a pinch, but I had such a blast a few years ago with a rented A3 in Germany that I'd bend/break my rules. Cost of long-term ownership is an issue with Audi as well.
I still need to research the CTS. With luck, they've got a proper "build your own" website. Stay tuned.
Anyway, it's interesting, at least to me, that when I bought my LS five or so years ago, many of these choices weren't there. You could buy the LS, the BMW, or. . .nothing.
Now there are several choices, and the LS is not among them.
Just hope I can afford the gas down there and back...
As of this moment, the DEW98 platform will continue for another 2 generation cycles, roughly about 8-10 years. The XJ and XK also are based on this platform, and there's currently talk of a possible "people mover" off the same platform as well. Granted, these are all aluminum versions DEW98's.
"Many will point out that the Volvo and Mazda platforms are new, but how long have they been in engineering and how long have they been in production?"
In the case of the Mazda6 for example, it was engineered around 2001..whereas DEW98 is older by 4years (engineering wise that is). It wasn't till the media and Ford noticed that the Mazda6 platform was very successful, till they made plans to produce more vehicles off of it.
As for Volvo, the original platform dates back to around that of the Dew98 platform, but as the new version of it (on the 500/Mont/FS), the substantial effort of re-engineering it, has resulted in a more advanced platform (as compared to others in it's league). And when the Lincoln sedans debut, they themselves AT THAT TIME, will be more advanced than the current 500/Month/FS, and partially equal to that of the next Volvo S80, in the terms of structural integrity/stiffness/sophistication.
"What are the compromises of using the platforms as far as mounting points, suspension variety and inner panel sharing?"
Most of those items can be tailored to be specific to a brand. The suspension tuning is different amongst the Zephyr, Milan, Fusion, all depending on the role they wish to accomplish. It's an easy adjustment, that will yield noticeable differences. Even the sound absorbing/insulation is tailored, to the specific brand. Essentially, amongst those 3 vehicles, only the roof panel is shared... Now the things you don't see, such as wiring harnesses, electronics, etc, are items which result is time/cost savings.
Using the same platform (as used on another vehicles within the company) can easily cut 12-14 months of engineering time. Which in turn, adds reliability using common components tried and tested, cost savings, and allows the product to reach consumers in less time.
"Will a Lincoln that shares the Mazda Platform share the Mazda dashboard?"
Nope, sizes are different, since the Zephyr uses an updated Mazda6 platform, CD3. It is essentially a Mazda6 platform, but a bit bigger, with a stronger focus on side impact protection. Although, the F/M/Z vehicles will essentially be the same vehicle, and buttons (between the Milan and Fusion) are located in the same places, but the Zephyr has a different layout, vent shapes/sizes, etc, will differ.
The difference between the Fusion/Milan are as those of the GrandMarquis to Crown Vic, whereas sitting in the Zephyr, won't share the kinship of the other 2, OR be as evident.
I hope I answered some of your questions...
And I can't believe Ford was SO stupid as to put their marketing dollars on SUVs where they were making $10K per vehicle and selling hundreds of thousands of them whereas the LS was selling 50K in it's best year and making almost nothing. What idiots! Do they think they're running a business where profit is the bottom line?
“It wasn't till the media and Ford noticed that the Mazda6 platform was very successful, till they made plans to produce more vehicles off of it.”
The Media now determines what is best for Auto Production? Where the hell have I been all this time?
As for Volvo, the original platform dates back to around that of the Dew98 platform, but as the new version of it (on the 500/Mont/FS), the substantial effort of re-engineering it, has resulted in a more advanced platform (as compared to others in it's league). And when the Lincoln sedans debut, they themselves AT THAT TIME, will be more advanced than the current 500/Month/FS, and partially equal to that of the next Volvo S80, in the terms of structural integrity/stiffness/sophistication.
Would this be like to Mustang remaining on a “Modified” Fox Platform since 1985?
Most of those items can be tailored to be specific to a brand. The suspension tuning is different amongst the Zephyr, Milan, Fusion, all depending on the role they wish to accomplish. It's an easy adjustment, that will yield noticeable differences. Even the sound absorbing/insulation is tailored, to the specific brand. Essentially, amongst those 3 vehicles, only the roof panel is shared... Now the things you don't see, such as wiring harnesses, electronics, etc, are items which result is time/cost savings.
Excuse me, but isn’t platform sharing all about “Hard Points”? Suspension Pick Up points are determined by the Platform, so there is NO variability! Adjust the suspension, yes; it can be tuned to a certain extent, but it is always limited to the basic platform!
The difference between the Fusion/Milan are as those of the GrandMarquis to Crown Vic, whereas sitting in the Zephyr, won't share the kinship of the other 2, OR be as evident.
Dear Lord. I hope not! The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis have been around since the 1977 downsize. Yes, they’ve come across with the “Hydro-Formed” Chassis and they have updated the suspension, but separately and not as a package! Much like the Mustang Upgrade of 1990’s, tweak the platform and tell the consumers that it’s new. Much like the Taurus of 1996, extensively tweak the platform and tell the consumer that it’s new and improved. Is that where we really want Ford Motor to go, I don’t think so. How many new platforms have Toyota and Honda brought through the gates in the same time period?
Your engineering is lacking! You are relying on antiquated platforms! You will be your own death knell, since you don’t want to listen to what the consumers on this site are telling you. Your blind and absolute denunciation of all posters reminds me of the book, “The Whiz Kids”, by John A. Byrne. Let’s ignore what the public wants and we will give the public what we think they want!??
Our argument is the loss of the Lincoln LS, nothing more, nothing less. When we were here in the late 1990’s, we were given a line of sophisticated hoopla. Those that survived are wondering if maybe the “Brown Acid” may not have been a better alternative. It has very little to do with what Lincoln will replace the LS with; it has more to do with the lack of Lincoln’s failure to carry through with the promise of the LS.
ANT 14, I’ll be honest with you. As far as I know, you are no Jonathon Crocker, and I doubt that you’ve sailed the new Zephyr around Nuremberg, which our beloved LS was tested. If you are only acting as concierge service for Lincoln and have nothing to say but platitudes, please stay in the recycle section to the right (As in right Lane)!
But Volvo and Jaguar are better due to
Ford's engineering than they've ever been. Jag and Land Rover have been saved by Ford - they'd be gone now without them. That's worth something. Ford doesn't always do everything right, but they don't do everything wrong either. I see a fair amount of effort being made by them to make a good product on many levels. Only Toyota never makes a mistake (so far), but if you play it that safe, it's easier to do.
"If Ford was smart they'd just give the platform a new code and tell everyone it's brand new and engineered in Detroit. Nobody would EVER know the difference"
Actually, that's what many competitors do...
PackV,
"The Media now determines what is best for Auto Production? Where the hell have I been all this time? "
To a certain degree, yes actually they do. If the media doesn't like a specific vehicle, don't expect them to write any positive reviews on it... No matter how good the rest of the package will be, they won't let it go.
"Would this be like to Mustang remaining on a “Modified” Fox Platform since 1985?
And prior to that, I believe it dates from 1979 If I remember correctly...
"Much like the Taurus of 1996, extensively tweak the platform and tell the consumer that it’s new and improved. Is that where we really want Ford Motor to go, I don’t think so. How many new platforms have Toyota and Honda brought through the gates in the same time period?"
Shhhhhhh, they too have been using the same platform for quite sometime. Yet "the media" won't harp on that. There's no set standard as to what makes a platform "brand new", so every generation of their platform they state is "brand new"...yet, the origins of it go back quite a bit. Just how the new Mustang is a "new" platform, but it's origins are based on the DEW98 platform...just everything has been altered so much, they gave the platform it's own designation. Jag XJ also had a "brand new platform" supposedly. It's DEW98 based, but because it's aluminum, it's deemed "brand new".
"You are relying on antiquated platforms! "
So in reference to the manufacturers you stated, the origins of their platforms have been around for quite some time but if your buying into the media statements that it's totally brand new too, then it's pointless. And amazingly, they TOO have antiquated platform, in fact.... some of their vehicles have longer cycles than Fords. The Land Cruiser/LX470 is one of them, as some of their trucks as well. But they have there reasons as to why they do not re-engineer them as often.
So now in the case of the LS replacement platform ...which is being designed to be more sophisticated and stronger all around, without losing the drivability bite of the current LS, and your stating. "You are relying on antiquated platforms! " ?? The new platform isn't antiquated considering it will meet and exceed known safety standards that will be implemented in the next 5 years (Something the current DEW98 won't match as well without major modifications), while exceeding engineering for competitive vehicles when it does debut at that time. Therefore I fail to see the "antiquation" your stating.
Currently changes in platforms are taking place, so the "antiquation" label doesn't hold. Let me run through a few...
The C180-Focus-US thanks to it, and it's worldwide accolades it has received because of it's trim dimensions offering big interiors, and it's drivability, allowed C1 to be born. All C1 is, a more robust C180, with concentration on side impact performance.
C1, basis of Euro Focus, Mazda3, VolvoS40, C70, Mazda-5, Next Freelander, known for the above mentioned attributes...That platform already exceeds mandated safety standards for the new few years... The competition hasn't yet caught up, and the few that have, haven't been able to match the flexibility, nor fun to drive factor of that platform (as the media keeps harping about).
CD3 stems from Mazda6, basis for the new Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, the "Edge", Mazda Cx-7, next Lincoln Aviator... A few other vehicles will debut from this platform. Drivability and safety being key priority points on this platform.
Volvo's P2, S60, S80, Xc70, Xc90 (these vehicles go onto the improved D3 basis in their next redesign)
From it, improved D3 stems 500/FS/Mont...and a pair of "people movers" to be introduced soon.
From it, stems future D286, D386, which are LS replacement and next flagship sedan.
Mustang stems from DEW98 origins, yet it's new.
Miata-Rx-7 New...
GT- New...
Explorers platform just received a major redesign that keeps it ahead of other BOF competitors, mainly because of the enclosed structural, fully boxed frame construction, while offering independent rear suspension. The "antiquated" competitors are still using crude rear suspension systems.
Expedition, to debut in a new T-1 platform along with the Navi, and Expy-Max... to be shared with the next F-150 which gets redesigned in a (very speedy for the segment) life cycle of just 4 years. Current platform is just hitting it's midlife point (yet, much fresher than the competition has-even Toyota's Land Cruiser--shocking).... And again, the Expy/Navi feature independant rear suspensions...the "antiquated" competitors are still using crude devices...
F-150 is on a new platform, but as I just stated, it's going to an even newer one very shortly.
GM/CV/TC "Panther platform", I dislike it... and it's origins are from long ago, but durability, safety and profittabiliy, keep it alive. Other manufacturer's wish they could make a profit as easily as these can put out, with hardly any initial investments.
Taurus platform, killed... Taking it with it, the Freestar/Monterey.. Could be considered "Antiquated", but people saved from severe impacts in that platform would state otherwise.
Escape/Mariner/Tribute platform based on a heavily modified 626 platform, will receive another mission, running at 6 years, which for a platform it's "midlife". Better to kill it at the 8 year mark and introduce it on another platform.
Ranger is the only platform I believe could be called "antiquated" at this point. But with a shrinking market for that segment, it hasn't received much attention.
So aside from maybe 2 platforms (in my opinion), I don't see how your comment..."You are relying on antiquated platforms!" can stick.
Mind you, Land Rover, Jaguar, Aston Martin themselves have spawned more vehicles in new platforms throughout these changed stated above which I won't dwell on. And ALL this, while the company is facing financial setbacks- I would say it's pretty impressive overall....
People said the same thing about the solid rear axle on the mustang. Until they drove it. Now you don't hear anything about it at all because it's a non issue.
And like Ant said - if you think Honda and Toyota have lots of new platforms you haven't been paying attention.
I actually bought them at ACE Hardware.
SO... there's alot of pages of messages here ... really too much to sift through without investing serious time. I guess it boils down to one question ... does anyone think I should NOT buy one? And, if so, why not?
thanks.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't want to muddy the waters at this point, but I will anyway:>) - There were a number of significant improvements made to the 2003 models. Have you considered that?