Lincoln LS

joe166 · May 2001

Well, it is easy to make fun of the pickups, but remember that they must be doing something right as the F-150 is the number one selling motor vehicle in north America and has been for some time. Not to mention that the profit from each sale of a pickup truck is much higher than any passenger car that FOMOCO sells. I would think that whatever their strategy is, it is working. Besides, if you don't see that the powertrain in a pickup truck can afford to be MUCH more primitive than that in an LS, then I can't explain it to you.

drolds1 · May 2001

GM trannies in an LS8? You guys are desparate

You might not have been born yet, but the '65 full-size (and I do mean FULL-SIZE)GM cars were all new designs. In those days even some base model full-size cars had 3-speed manuals as the standard trans. GM was going to put a new 3-speed synchromesh manual in those cars, but it wasn't ready for the start of the model year. SO-they purchased 3-speed manuals from FORD. That's right, some '65 Pontiac Catalinas were sold with Ford 3-speed manuals. So hey, why not return the favor some 36 years later? Just joking. Thought you might enjoy this little bit of throw-away trivia. But really, nothing new. The old AMC used lots of parts from the "Big Three."

gkarg · May 2001

Mark,
Thanks for the information you've given us in the past in regard to TSB 01-01-05. I finally was able to have it installed, and do notice a subtle difference/advantage... especially after start-up. Cold engine/tranny shifts and the 3rd gear double shifts are much more refined...THANKS!!

George

ls1bmw0 · May 2001

I've gotten tired of waiting for Magnaflow to get down to business so I've approached Borla. They are sending a V-8 kit to me for evaluation. I have also talked them into doing a V-6 kit that they are starting to work on.

If after testing I think the quality and the performance is what the members would want, the club will sell the kits to the members at a substantial savings off of the retail price of $899. Can't tell you the price just yet but you won't be able to get the kit anywhere else at this price.

And you guys were wondering what goodies you were getting for your membership bucks

Brian

ls1bmw0 · May 2001

I have managed to con a couple of Ford Master Technicians into volunteering to be the moderators of a new LLSOC Members-Only message board topic that will be called the Ford Master Technician Forum. If the attitude and willingness to listen to learn that these two gentlemen share is what the new generation of service technicians is about, we have a bright future ahead of us.

Since we have the engineers viewpoint I thought it made sense to have the technicians viewpoint also. The Masters will also be able to help us understand the dealer service role better which should help us in dealing with our dealers. Any questions related to service issues can be brought up in this topic. Please remember to be civil no matter what your frustration level might be at the time

Look for it to be set up and active some time next week at www.llsoc.com under Message Boards

Brian

tom12253 · May 2001

Thanks for your quick response to my Question. I will give the info you provided to my dealer tomorrow when I pick up my car. I'll let him call the dealer and check out your lead.

Thanks again,

Tom...

ezaircon4jc · May 2001

Brian, what do you mean tired of waiting? Is mid May now mid June

? My car is waaaaaay too quiet!

leadfoot4 · May 2001

Just for the sake of throwing in my $.02 worth... Is it a question of R&D expense that's preventing the LS V-8's from getting the manual tranny, or is it the ridiculous cost of getting the EPA certification for a "new model" the real culprit ??

drolds1 · May 2001

Brian- how do you do it? This sounds like it's going to be a great forum. Thanks.

Artie.

sdouglas2 · May 2001

Arthur, whattaya mean old cars had manuals? 8D My very first car was a '66 Fairlane, 289 with a "3 on the tree". What a car! (At least in my memory

To Lon: I've never heard mention before of EPA cert being expensive, other than having to dedicate a vehicle to be used for certification. The vehicle has to have 4K mile mileage accumulation to represent a "broken-in" powertrain.

Also, just to verify transmission concerns, I looked at a Getrag and a V8 5R55N side by side last night; bolt patterns are really different, plus the V8 bellhousing looks about 25% bigger...

leadfoot4 · May 2001

I could be wrong, but at one time I thought that the process involved "testing" the car for a 50,000 mile period to insure that the car both met, and maintained, pollution standard conformance. Therefore, this became the expense in bringing online a new powertrain combination, even in an existing platform.
Maybe the process has changed, or maybe I had the wrong information all along.

giowa · May 2001

Regardless of how much or little it could cost Lincoln to develop, test, certify, and eventually sell an LS8 manual, do keep in mind that in CY2000 Ford Motor Company blew $6,000,000,000 (billion) in corporate cash reserve to execute a complicated stock scheme designed entirely to help the Ford Family maintain its current levels of control. As a stockholder and LS8 owner I was sadden to see Ford essentially "waste" $6B that could've been used for research; platform, engine, & transmission development; improved manufacturing; enhanced quality, service, & reliability. Here was Ford facing significant market problems in Europe and under intense competition in USA and they were "spending" a huge amount of cash on something controversial that wasn't being clamored for by shareholders and wouldn't make Ford more competitive here or abroad. Oh well.

thomas_l · May 2001

sdouglas2: Thanks for looking. That would mean that the 5R55N has different case configuration (at the very least) going from the 6 to the 8 cyl. The only hope for a V8 bellhousing would be if the Euro Jags eventually use the 4.0L with a manual on something or some enterprising aftermarket outfit makes one. Then there's the fun of adapting the electronics :-(

joe166: I'm not knocking pickups - in fact I have had a couple of F-series at one time or another. I'm sure the lack of refinement and cavernous engine bay leaves lots of room for experimentation, making it a good candidate for the good stuff. It's just disappointing that those goodies (supercharger) will probably not ever see the top of a 3.9L. Like with the manual, maybe it will become a Jaguar option and be a possible "upgrade" in the future.

akirby · May 2001

Guys - if you really want more hp then the answer is easy. How does this sound:

Horsepower: 370 hp @ 6150 rpm
Torque: 387 ft-lbs. @ 3600 rpm

And it's virtually the same engine block so it should fit with minor alterations.
You can get one of these engines for about $80K, but I'm not sure what you would do with a 252HP Jag XKR that you would have left over when you're done.

BTW - EPA mileage on the XKR is 16/22 .

mkovalsk · May 2001

Yes, there are two transmission cases for the 5R55N. The rear face of block is very differrent between the V6 and V8. The V8 rear face of block is identical to the 4.0L Jaguar.

There are two models of 5R55N. One for V6 and one for V8. The cases are different, the torque converters are different, and some of the clutches and servos (that operate the bands) are different.

If you try to install one of those 4.0L XKR engines, take the transmission from the donor car, too. I'd hate to try and figure out how to make the 5R55N shift with that engine. The electronics that operate that engine don't know how to operate a 5R55N.

Mark

jerrym3 · May 2001

According to blueovalnews.com, the Explorer will offer a diesel manufactured by/purchased from Daimler-Chrysler.

wk217 · May 2001

Just got the June Car and Driver with a preview of the Jag. 0-60 in 6.3, not bad, as Edmunds lists the LS's 0-60 at 7.8. A couple questions though...

C&D lists the weight of the X-type at 3500lbs. Edmunds lists the weight of the LS6M at 3590lbs. The X-type has basically the same engine, with only an additional 4lbs of torque and 21hp.

I know that to properly compare two cars, its preferrable to take #s from the same rag, but I don't believe I have numbers from C&D on the LS6M.

Getting to the questions, does anyone know if both cars use the same Tranny? C&D doesn't mention if it's a Getrag. Any other comparasions of the two would be greatfully accepted.

I'm considering both cars, the LS is a bit bigger, but the Jag's beautiful... please help!!

BTW, can someone post a link to Getrag's website?

stanny1 · May 2001

Scot - can you look at a Getrag six-speed and see how hard it would be to mate it up to the V-6 Manual bellhousing? Thanks, Stan

ls1bmw0 · May 2001

Michael,

As in I haven't heard back from them. Since I've gotten tired of calling them and I've given them 3 months from the start of this whole thing, I switched. Doesn't mean they aren't doing it, I just didn't want everyone waiting while they decided where we fit into their priority list. I haven't given up on them yet. I figure if I let it slip to them that I have Borla developing a V-6 version they might be incented to move us up in priority.

Brian (Eagles may soar, but ferrets don't get sucked into jet engines!)

lateralg · May 2001

Isn't the next generation Mustang on the DEW98 platform?

Would Ford dare to build the Mustang without a manual transmission?

If the answers are yes/no, then it bodes well for the LS, eh?

ls1bmw0 · May 2001

5 people signed up, 95 more to go.

packv12 · May 2001

I missed Mania I due to unreliable weather in the northern Midwest last January. I look forward to the fun and meeting many of the fellow LS owners out there. I am also looking forward to meeting with the people who made this car possible.

I also realize that this is the first event held by the club and that we should support our membership in the club. If we can make this event a success, it will only be a precursor of the many great events that will be held.

Think of it this way, if this event should happen to get cancelled, explain why Brian would go out of his way to attempt to organize a tour of the Wixom plant? I don't know if there is any talk of make or break regarding the club, but if we can't support this event with our attendance, what will that mean to a club in its infancy?

I plan on attending and I would encourage everyone else to make an effort to attend. Our support can and will only translate into a better club for ourselves.

brunobus · May 2001

The new Car and Driver has an article on an XKR tester with a supercharged 4.0 liter V-8 (the one mentioned in post 2315) where they installed a Tremec six speed tranny. From reading the posts, I assume that this is the same 4.0 as in the S-type/LS. Maybe there is some hope on the horizon for an M killer in the Ford lineup, but I have a feeling it will be ala S-type instead of LS. They also mention that they installed the S-type (LS) rear suspension on it.

Bruno

tom12253 · May 2001

Last night I brought my car in for replacement of the other rear window assembly, a ticking noise that occurs until the car warms up, a knock in the steering wheel, and oil change. Just talked to the service manager who confirmed there was a manifold leak on the right side. He said he would order the part but it was hard to get the manifold for some reason. Waiting to here what they say about the steering wheel knock. Its a wonder I still love this car after having just about all the problems everybody has listed.

Tom.

thomas_l · May 2001

My wife and I are going - already have my reservations at the Holiday Inn. I actually got my sister-in-law to schedule her wedding on a different week since 7/12-15 had been set by the time she was thinking of a July date. OK that means I win the "set your priorities" award :-D WooHooo!! that also means Thomas will not be working much in July with all these vacations scheduled. After Mania II I'll make an appearance back in the office for a couple days then off to Edmonton, AB. for a week.

I just hope that the current sign-up list isn't an indication that the interest level is like the Atlanta autocross events (the number of ATL LS owners that showed besides me resembles a doughnut).

thomas_l · May 2001

OK - so now all we need to do is wait for some sucker XKR owner to total their car and harvest the parts before a semi-wise salvage dealer grabs it. I don't even want to guess how much that stuff would cost at the Jaguar parts counter -yikes! Maybe cheaper to buy the package deal ($80k) and just keep the free Jag.

temls · May 2001

Can anyone provide an address and cost for a LS tech manual?

joelincoln · May 2001

Tom,
I think I may be developing the "steering wheel knock". Tell me what your service guy says is the problem.

It feels to me like its in the column near the steering wheel...not down by the rack and linkages.

Joe

ls1bmw0 · May 2001

LLSOC has a copy of the service manual on CD. If you have a question we can look it up for you. A no-fee added-value service to our membership

P.S. A good deal is to look at E-Bay and search on Lincoln LS. They seem to have several available, don't know how legitimate they are.

Brian

klarson1 · May 2001

As most of you know I think I've had every problem that ever occurred on any LS made.
A new one has popped up and I remember a discussion on it before.
For the last couple of days my ext temp reading was in the high 90's then suddenly today it was in the 60's. Although the real temp was in the mid 70's to low 80's
Can anyone tell me how they had this problem fixed?
I really hate going back to the dealer. although at least 4 major other problems remain to be addressed.

Thanks
Kevin

ronniepooh · May 2001

OK. Sounds crazy, I know. As some of you may know, BMW has an annual charity event known as "The Ultimate Drive for the Cure". It supports the fight against breast cancer. BMW donates a certain amount of money for every mile you drive their designated cars. A traveling group of BMW folks and a lineup of BMW's go frm dealership to dealership across the country, letting registered (you can register on www.bmwusa.com, under the EVENTS section) and non-registered folks who show up, the chance to drive 2001 BMW's on a pre-determined driving route. Solo. Today (Thursday) they were at Tischer BMW in Silver Spring. I got a chance to drive a fully loaded (do they come any other way?) 750il. Twelve Cylinders. Wow. Lots of low-end torque, and strong acceleration, but it didnt seem blazing fast, because you are so isolated from the world. Acceleration from 0-about 60 was very close to the BMW 330i, if not a bit slower. Steering and brakes and feel were tremendous for a huge car, but it is a huge, heavy car. It is something to have such tremendous amounts of torque at less than 2000rpm. Great car, as you can imagine.

Next up was the BMW 330i with Sport Package. Loaded. This thing is every bit as good as the car magazines say. Absolute perfect handling, interior quietness about on par with the LS, great ride quality, maybe a bit more comfortable than the LS (comparing Sport package vs. Sport Package) brakes that feel (no flames please) twice as good as the LS's brakes, which are no slouch. I felt even *less* acceleration squat and brake dive than in the LS. Exhaust note sounds like last years //M3, which is very aggressive. That surprised me. Enthusiasts will LOVE that engine/exhaust note. And that inline six. Please...no inline vs. V6 arguments...but that six is silky smooth and very powerful. 230hp, I think? Lows? THe steptronic transmission is programmed a bit different than the LS. Ex: Flooring it in Steptronic (SelectShift to us LS folks) will cause the electronics to sense that you want to downshift, and it does so, and stays there. I could get used to it, but I dont like it. I prefer the LS's method of leaving it in the gear you put it in until YOU decide to downshift. Im not sure if the Steptronic will upshift automatically at redline, as I didnt run the cars too hard...they only had 100 miles or so on each of them. Disabling the DSC (stability control) button turns off the DSC, but some form of traction control is still in place, as I could not break the tires loose for any length of time before the traction control cut in. Didnt like that...would prefer to be able to totally disable the traction control.

I wont go into comparisons of build quality, interior materials, and paint quality, as I dont want to piss off my fellow LS owners.

Is the LS up to BMW quality? No. Dont think anyone is saying that. Is the LS still a great value? Heck yeah...Does the 3 series have nearly as much interior space as the LS? Heck no. HOWEVER..(knew it was coming, didnt you?) THe curent 3-series actually allows you to move the drivers seat far enough back for me to stretch my 6'1 lanky frame well back...further back than my LS seat, as I can tell by how far my legs were stretched out. Definitely further back than the E36 (previous) 3 series of 1992-1999. Sure, no one could sit in the back with the seat back that far, but for those who rarely have rear seat passengers, its great. Wish the LS drivers seat could go back at least one more inch, for situations like this. Annoys me when Im on a long highwy trip by myself, and I see lots of rear legroom in the back of my LS being wasted

The hot car of the day was the brand new //M3. 3 Series chasses with 315hp. Unfortunately I arrived too late to get on the list for that one.

For anyone interested in the DC area, the Ultimate Drive takes place tomorrow (Friday) from 10am until 6pm at VOB BMW in Rockville, MD. The M3 will be there...

rayainsw · May 2001

"Im not sure if the Steptronic will upshift automatically at redline, as I didnt run the cars too hard"

I did run one hard.
It does upshift at redline - and WILL NOT upshift before redline, if you maintain WOT.
- Ray
BMW sales people just LOVE me...

ronniepooh · May 2001

Ray: Are you saying that in Steptronic mode, if you are in WOT, the electronics will NOT allow you to manually upshift?

shoefind · May 2001

At about 68 mph and over my LS begins to vibrate. At 14000 miles changed tires, . Had wheels balanced many times still no luck. Has anyone had a similar problem. It has a 8 cyl engine. My dealer has given up.

drolds1 · May 2001

For April 2001, Lincoln sales are off by 44.7%. LS sales off by 41.7%. S-Type sales up by 23.1% Source:media.ford.com.

Sales have softened for all the American co's, but what accounts for this precipitous drop?

Anyone have any ideas? We are not pleased.

packv12 · May 2001

I've seen the 2001 sales stats., but why not compare them to Model Year Production? They are only down 24.9%, rather than the comparison to last years record production. Total Lincoln production is down 20.9% for the year.

It's like the wonderful old line; There are three types of lies, damn-able lies, and statistics. Maybe all data should be considered before we accept Blue Oval New's declaration, or we should read the charts completely!

Unfortunately, there is no listing of a error of margin within the numbers listed, so I'd ask if the numbers are valid? Let's see, if overall production is down due to an economic downturn (losses in the market, or lose in consumer confidence), would not Lincoln suffer?

Outside of the fact that LS numbers are down, production wise, I don't see anything else that can be garnered from these numbers outside of actual production numbers.

azlels · May 2001

Is it possible the the LS6 auto could have the highest residual value as indicated in a post yesterday. How is this possible in light of the shot Consumer's guide took at the LS6.

rosaljr · May 2001

If you have balanced your wheels on a Hunter road force Balancing machine and you still have a shake, then your wheels or tires are most likely defective. I have 3 sets of wheels, the std. 17" sport wheels with the firestones, 18" Giovanna's with Pirelli P7000 sport and 20" HRE's with nitto 555's. As for the 18" Giovanna's, no matter how many times I balance them, they still shake. As for my stockers and my HRE's there is zero shake, only a perfect ride every time.

drolds1 · May 2001

Hey,Pack
To continue in that vein, I had a professor in college who used to say "figures don't lie, but liars figure." Generally speaking, anything I see on BON, I take with a boulder of salt. However, this was an outside source, not a BON story. There could be other factors at work; supplier problems, etc. Anyway, yes Lincoln sales are down "only" 24.9% on a year-to-year basis. I doubt Lincoln that LM bigwigs are consoling themselves with that figure. I think the industry average (American) is about 14-15%

Of course Lincoln would suffer in an economic downturn, but the same source reported a 23% increase in S-Type sales. Different demographic? The figures startled me and I was just wondering if anybody had any theories on this. This is just a snapshot. We'll have to watch the long-term.

ronniepooh · May 2001

I had this. Costco tech said I had a bent wheel, but he did the best he could. Wasnt good enough, as I still had annoying vibration at 65mph plus. Took my 2000 V6 Sport/Auto LS to Radial Tire in Silver Spring MD. This place has been around for years, and is very popular with local BMW/Porsche Club racers. No fancy Hunter equipment. Manager stolled out, examined the tires, and asked specific questions about the vibration. Steering wheel only? Ok, well check it out. Do you have Road Force Balance...."No, we have nothing fancy..we just know what we are doing", was his reply. Said they might have to deflate the tire/move it around on the rim. I never mentioned the bent wheel diagnosis, but they found the bend on one front wheel. $40 later, my invoice showed "straightened wheel/balanced". Result? The vibration has been reduced I would guess about 90% than what it was. MUCH better. How they straightened it? I dont know. I just know the car feels MUCH better. 31,800 miles on the car. Whenever I need to buy new tires (the stock Firestones still look like they hav 20,000 miles left on them, at least) Ill probably swap out the straightened rim for the full sized spare in the trunk.

ronniepooh · May 2001

Is a great car. Simple as that. Check out the Road And Track 2001 Buyers guide on newsstands. They have that review of the LSV6 Auto Sport, Cadillac Catera, 300m, et al. LSV6 Auto/Sport came in 3rd place overall, but if I recall, each editor/tester rated the LS best overall, for overall balance. Sure, the acceleration times from 0-60 werent impressive in their tests, but that wasnt the whole focus. Senior editor even felt the LS was better in V6 form than V8 form, due to better weight distribution, better handling, and because 210hp in the 6 cylinder range is much more competetive than 252hp in the 8 cylinder range. To each his own. LSV8 and V6 are great cars.

jdonnee · May 2001

I agree with Ronniepooh. First, if all of the balancing has been done by the dealer, then it's time to move on. Also, read the size of the weights on the tire and let us know. Some of my tires had 3-4 ounces. Good balance should not have greater than 1.5 ounce.

I had same problem. Went to independent who took the time to deflate each tire a series of times and move it around the rim. With 21,000 on V8 Sport and OEM Firestone tires, I still have no vibration and tire wear is excellent.

rosaljr · May 2001

I also agree with Ronniepooh. I only state that by using a Hunter machine it takes away the guesswork. What that machine offers, is the ability to tell the technician where and how to rotate the tire and place the weights (which most technicians in my area will not take the time to figure out without that machine). And if your standing behind them and watching the computer screen you know what the technician needs to do to get that thing balanced, so he can't make a mistake . . .it's a no brainer!! Why screw around trying to hopefully find someone who is experienced or willing to take the time to get it right, when you can just go to a Hunter machine and stand behind the tech and make sure he does it right!

giowa · May 2001

1. Check out the latest C&D. Has review of Jag X-type 3.0L with 5-speed manual tranny. Think it went 0-60 in about 6.3 secs. Good performance numbers. Think top speed a bit over 140 mph. They really liked it. With the Sport Pkg and options it was pushing $40K. Noticed the 16 cubic ft trunk. LS sales might take a hit from people looking at new X-type. My wife is certainly interested!

2. As for S-type sales increases, a while back I posted about seeing some huge subsidized lease ads in NY Times. Saw a nice TV ad last night. Think it was during FRIENDS or Larry King Live (actually Pat Sajak interviewing Rush Limbaugh). Think it was $499 a month with about 1500 down. Think for 3.0. Forget rest of terms. But I can see why Jag sales might shoot up when Jag is aggressively subsidizing leases. If I had to pay about the same to lease, I'd rather drive a Jag and be seen driving one. Wouldn't you? Be honest!

3. LS does need a shot in arm to maintain sales. She's about ready to go into 3rd year. Needs action for '02. And I don't mean new colors, vinyl roofs, whitewall tires, etc. No, needs to address...

a. Lots of little things, e.g., use the non-intruding trunk hinges to improve trunk useability, add interior storage space, 2 sun visors on each side, etc.,

b. Some medium things, e.g., safety enhancements like rear airbags, brake assist, optional zenon headlights, etc.,

c. And a big one or two, e.g., V-8 manual or higher output for engines.

rayainsw · May 2001

"Are you saying that in Steptronic mode, if you are in WOT, the electronics will NOT allow you to manually upshift? "

Precisely correct.

One thing I like (a lot - thank you, Mark!) about the SST mode of our auto. trans. is the ability to force an upshift at WOT but before redline.

Cheers,
- Ray
Sometimes shifting at full throttle but at 4,000 or 5,000 rpm...

rayainsw · May 2001

Brian -
Would it be possible to schedule a specific time with Lincoln's reps (perhaps in the late afternoon, after other activities wind down, but before serious drinking begins) to have them take a look at problems our local dealers have labeled with annoying phrases like: "They all do that."

This might not (directly) help fix the problems - but might make us feel better...?

Thanks,
- Ray
Counting the days to a private session on a race track with my LS

albert19 · May 2001

are you feeling the vibration at 65 mph on the tires or do you feel it other places on the car like the steering wheel ???

buckwheat · May 2001

When these vehicles become more prevalent in rental fleets as Hertz (Ford division) has announced residual is affected resale value decreases, and unfortunately just another American car deeply discounted to rental fleets. . BTW here is the BON chart: http://www.blueovalnews.com/lincolnmercury_01q2residual.htm

sniemietz · May 2001

I had the exact same problem with my stereo. The first time it took it in they tightened the ground wires and said it was fixed. The problem came back after driving the car for about 15 minutes. I took it back and they installed a second ground wire off of the amp. It appears the problem has been fixed.

joe166 · May 2001

Please explain what you mean. How would you feel the tire vibration EXCEPT through the steering wheel? I guess if you had a back tire out of round it might set up a vibration through the shocks and into the whole body. Is that what you mean because I am having a problem understanding the question so I can then try to understand the answer.

Lincoln LS

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