The August Road & Track says the T-Bird has "the same 3.58 : 1 gearing as in the LS Sedan." They do not mention limited slip. You'd think they would if they had it, or believed they did.
The intro clip to LLSOC web site has the words "Wood", "Leather", and "Adreneline" prominently displayed, in that order. When I just went there the clip when thru these three and then back to "Wood" before opening to a page. What "Wood" is being discussed? "Wud"? "Would"? Some aftermarket real or fake wood? Unlike Cadillac, I didn't think the LS came with a real wood dash option. Is real wood now available from Lincoln?
I also took exception to the advertising of "wood" almost two years ago, when I was first shopping and learned that the interior "wood" was plastic.
Jim Rodgers cleared it up a few months later when he pointed out that the original concept was for all cars except the "sport" models to have the (partially) real wood steering wheel. As you may recall, they had trouble with the wood steering wheel vendor and ended up putting the leather sport wheel on everything for the 2000 MY. Seems like they even offered later to replace the leather wheels with wood for those who wanted to change. I wasn't interested, so wasn't paying close attention. Also, they may have gone back to the wood wheel in 2001 -- I'd lost interest by then & once again wasn't paying enough attention to remember now.
Given your stated need for "technical accuracy" and your admitted "pedantic" nature, not to mention your almost encyclopedic quotes from car rag tests, some using in your words, "trick cars", I'm surprised you feed the "groupthink" you accuse others of. Several of your more recent foibles include:
1. Stating that speeds beyond 60-80 MPH are critical to enjoying a sport sedan. Maybe for you but not for me. Not even legal in most places.
2. Using you mom's car as a performance test bed anytime, especially at night with 5 people and luggage while "passing quickly on a two lane road". Not safe and poor judgement I do believe.
3. "A V8 Sport is superior to a V6 Sport" for you, not for everybody. You have a "need" for more high end acceleration, I have a "want" to save almost $4000 bucks and well over 3MPG.
4. One does not have to be a 69 year old Gramdma to enjoy the many delights of the V6 Sport, one of which is fairly good performance for a heavy car. That's for me of course, obviously not for you, old road test quotes not withstanding.
Having spent better than 10,000 miles first in a LS V8, then in a LS V6 Sport, I can state unequivocally that they BOTH are SUPERIOR automobiles - just a wee bit different. I will not get in a flame throwing contest with you G-man, it's just that us 1555C's sometimes have to keep both the record, and air intell guys, straight.
The American consumer is fighting a war with American corporations. The battle is simply that American companies want to give you as little as possible for the most amount of money. They also want to steer you to the products they want you to buy. If you want all the features you have to buy the biggest land barge they sell. This is the same sort of 1970's marketing BS that gave us the Lincoln Versailles and the Cadillac Cimmeron. Want proof, just go to this web site: http://www.lincoln.co.jp/ (You don't have to download the fonts in order to see the pictures). At this site you will see a LS, sold and warranted by FoMoCo that has a navigation system plus SST with wood shift knob and wood steering wheel. You'll also find the LS screen saver, which you can download plus 2 different LS wallpaper images which are available in different resolutions, unlike the US Lincoln site that only has one size wallpaper and no screen saver. Now I'll give you four guesses why the US LS doesn't have a navigation system: 1. Because the Town Car doesn't have one. 2. Because the Continental doesn't have one. 3. Because the S-type has one and it is market positioned above the LS. 4. The LS has to be a feature stripped car because it is positioned as entry level luxury if you want real luxury you have to buy a different and more expensive nameplate. Does anyone now have any doubts why the LS engines don't warrant VVT heads? We are being held hostage to the marketers and product planners who are attempting to make us trained dogs. Any guesses as to what the real reason the LS was pulled from the European market? It certainly wasn't the "we need more than one product so sell the nameplate in Europe" BS that we've been given. Its simply that the marketers figured out that the inadequate performance (0-60) and feature stripped LS would never sell against MB, BMW & Audi as the are priced on the continent.
The reason you can't get above 3000 RPM in drive without the car moving is a function of the engine torque and the torque converter characterisics.
You have found what is called the "stall speed." That's the maximum speed the engine can turn in gear with the car not moving. Changing the torque converter can raise the stall speed, and raising engine torque will also raise the stall speed.
The neutral rev limiter has no effect on 0-60 times.
If you are dissatisfied with the product offerings from Ford Motor Company, or any other manufacturer, you have one option. Only one, but it is 100% effective in keeping that company out of your life: Don't buy the product.
And to scottc8 (#3861) -- You're exactly right, as well. For those of us to whom the LS was in fact an entry into the (near) luxury sedan market, what we buy as our next vehicle may or may not be of interest to the Ford Motor Company. Many of slunar's points direct us to the conclusion that FoMoCo is willing to let the "hard-core enthusiasts" (or whatever those of us who populate this board are referred to as) go elsewhere while they continue to sell to the other 98% of the LS market with vehicles that are lacking (in our opinion).
As for me, I've been gathering Audi data of late. I already have a complete collection of BMW stuff, and we'll see where it all leads in 3 - 5 years.
For those new to this board, I own a 2000 manual, which I like a lot. I feel there's room for (significant) improvement, however. FoMoCo may not. Time will tell.
Well said. I apologize for being overly blunt. My point is, our money purchased automobiles, nothing more and nothing less. Lincoln's obligation is to support the car per the terms of the warranty. Period. We did not purchase the right to expect Lincoln to behave the way we would like them to in terms of promotion, equipment, or future changes. We may express our opinions, and Lincoln may or may not act on them. (Aside from my point, Lincoln seems more receptive to customers' opinions than most manufacturers.)
Is my car exactly what I want in every way? Of course not. Am I satisfied that it delivers what was promised for the price paid? Absolutely. I'm hopeful that enthusiast drivers represent enough of the customer base to influence Ford's decisions, but, if not, my next car will be something else.
Of course Ford makes decisions based on profit. What other criteria should they use? What criteria should the business you own or work for use?
buckwheat: Thanks for the link. Interestingly it shows 3.58:1 axle ratio for V-8 automatics. Does show the 3.07:1 for V-6 manuals. And it says TBD for drag co-efficient.
I always forget about the wood on the steering wheel and shifter for the non-Sport models. My '00 LS8 Sport doesn't have any wood. And it is missing on the early build '00 non-Sports. My mom's 5/99 build doesn't have wood.
But wonder if it is real wood. Pulled out the artsy '00 and '01 MY brochures. The '00 brochure makes no mention of the steering wheel in the body of the brochure or anywhere in the text. On the Specificication Page it says "Wood and leather-wrapped steering wheel (n/a with Sport Package)". The '01 brochures says the same on its specifications page; however, it has a text paragraph with color picture. That text says "the 2001 Lincoln LS has a handsome, WOOD-GRAINED(1), power adjustable steering wheel" "(1) leather wrapped on Sport Package". (emphasis added) Does "wood-grained" mean the same as being real wood???
These two brochures are odd in regard to the shifter knob. Can't find any mention of a wood shifter knob. The Specifications Page shows "leather shift knob" with the Sport Package. The big full color picture of the interior shows similar/identical looking "wood" on the side door panels, ashtray cover, shifter, and steering wheel. Wondering if it is all merely "wood-grained" plastic or other compound.
Too bad there is no Zebrano-wood or similar option for LS as there is on DeVille. When I hear wood, I think wood on the dash and side door panels. I prefer leather on steering wheel and shifter.
I'm glad you attempt to pay close attention to my postings. But you are reading things that aren't in them and not reading things that are in them.
If there is anyone on this board who is the opposite of a group-thinker it is me. Whether it has been discussing engine configurations, dealer service, build quality, the value (or lack thereof) of the SST, DSP, etc., I don't shy away from expressing my views even when I'm in the clear minority. But I will concede a point if I am proven wrong and I do try to listen to opposing points of view.
When I discussed the meagre low- and mid-end performance on my mom's '00 LS6 base auto when five of us were in it, I didn't say that was passing anyone on 2-lane roads. I did that in town from stoplights/signs and out of town in rural area with no one around taking son to scout camp. And I did NOT do it at night. It doesn't get dark around here now until around 2100 hrs CST. I was driving it from about 1700-2030 hrs.
As for driving at speeds at or above 60-80 mph, that comment was primarily in regard to passing acceleration times, not so much sustained cruising. When I pass someone on a 2-lane road, the figure I worry about is how quickly can I get around 'em. Going from 60 to 80 mph quickly is critical. And if you spend any time driving out west, you'll routinely encounter people safely driving long periods of time in excess of 80 mph. Lots of posters here have discussed this.
The LS6 and LS8 Sports are similar in ride and handling. But the LS8 Sport is quite demonstrably superior in regard to acceleration numbers when comparing the automatics. Thus, by definition, something that is superior to another object in an important area is inherently superior overall. I think, and I think most others think, that acceleration is usually an important factor in high performance sport sedans. You want to discount acceleration. I don't discount any factor. Your almost saying that if Chevy could make a Metro 3-cyl engine 3-door handle as well as your LS6 Sport auto that that would make the two cars equal overall and the Metro owner likely saved $20K?
My mom's '00 LS6 base auto does NOT get 3 or more MPG over my '00 LS8 Sport. I've driven lengthy distances in both. On mostly interstates driving 74-80 mph with similar passenger and luggage loads, her's gets only about 1 mpg better. But she sacrifices lots of standing start and mid-range passing acceleration.
And my '69-yr-old mom complains about the anemic acceleration times from her LS6 base auto. Before it she had a Caprice Classic with 5.7L V-8 and a Chrysler Concorde with 3.5L V-6. Both of these cars out accelerate her LS6. She misses the acceleration at times she wants or needs it and doesn't have it. She has driven my LS8 Sport and doesn't have the acceleration issues.
Your mom's build date is the same as mine and she could have had the wood steering wheel and shift knob if she had accepted the offer from Lincoln to replace the originals. I did and love both.
..you are relatively new here, so we forgive you. YOu see, if you go back a few months, you will see that Giowa has his own way of attempting to rile folks up. Many here have learned to simply ignore his rants and raves. YOu are correct, he has been known to routinely spew magazine numbers, often taking a test from one magazine that tested a LSV6, and then using that data against another magazine that tested a LSV8, which totally changes any form of valid comparison. (As we know, there are many factors in testing acceleration, temp,altitude,humidity, track temp, track surface, etc).
Let me put it to you this way. Giowa, the car guy, also drives a Hyundai. To top it off, he was thrown off of the Hyundai message board. Does life get any worse than that? What next, getting thrown off of the AMC Pacer list? ;-)
Ronniepooh: I'm not certain where you get your information but giowa has clearly NOT been thrown off the Sonata board. I just went there and of the last 50 entries 4 are his, so I would consider him an active participant. I didn't find anyone telling him to "Go Away" either, his views seem to be taken as just that: one man's opinion. There is no reason to disparage someone, as one's true character will become obvious to all. As far as him owning a Hyundai, SO WHAT? I own both an '01 V6M LS and a '92 Taurus with 165K miles on her. Does owning a lowly Ford family sedan disqualify my contributions as well? Owning a Hyundai does not make one an idiot, in that market I think it is a wise choice: less expensive than Accord/Camry, more features and a warranty that can't be beat. Although I have had "disagreements" with him in the past I still give him the benefit of the doubt as he has provided valuable information. And when I get tired of certain never ending discussions I just scroll right past them. I believe that is what most of us do.
equals reality minus expectations (with credit to Click & Clack).
I guess the reason some of us are worried about the future of the LS has to do with the early direction the car was said to be headed -- direct competitor to the BMW, sold in quantity in Europe & around the world, etc. The reality has fallen well short, and I guess I'm concerned that the bean-counters are now in charge, and substantial improvement in the LS appears less likely.
Somehow, BMW has made a business of selling performance automobiles. They make a profit, and as was rightly pointed out a few posts ago, isn't that the point? The question is whether Lincoln really wants to pursue the enthusiast market as BMW, Audi and others have done. My impression, based on the past year's observations, is that the original crew who sincerely thought so and worked hard to make it happen, has fallen from favor.
you might be a bit nicer as I at least try to keep this board active. How many times has some simple comment of mine led to lengthy discussions? If I say something like "SST or DSP are gimmicky", a flood of comments follows.
ronniepooh: I wouldn't pick on Hyundai. Notice how their sales are going thru the roof? And how they are introducing lots of new models? XG300 (w/5-speed automatic) & Santa Fe SUV. Guessing Lincoln is wishing they had had as much market success as Hyundai in past 3 MYs.
My Sonata GLS V-6 is a business car. My el cheapo employer gives me only 22 cents a mile. That is pretty limiting. Needed a decent-sized 4-dr sedan. My car is loaded with leather, sunroof, ABS/TC, (very rare) 5-speed manual, CD/cassette, PS/PL/PW, heated mirrors, pollen filter, and more. Where could I get all this for only $18,400, plus the great warranty? Oh, and in the first 23,000 miles the only problem I've had was a headlight burned out. Wish I could say same for my LS8 Sport; she had a lengthy laundry list of problems in the first 23,000 miles.
And if you are going to slam my lowly, reliable Hyundai, could you at least also mention that my baby is my '96 5.7L V-8 Impala SS. Bought her new in '96 and she has only 23K miles on her. She'll walk all over all of our LS's, mine included. More room inside and trunk. And better fuel economy, requiring regular unleaded. Just needs IRS.
ronniepooh & karzz: Please stop the disinformation. I have never been banned, removed, or thrown out of any site. Sure, made some enemies, not unlike ronniepooh and others, who sometimes wanted me to leave but I post here, there, and anywhere.
Well, it seems the inevitable has happened to me. My Passenger side, rear window bit the dust again - yes, this is the second time for this one and it WAS, SUPPOSED to have been fixed with the redesigned part (original one replaced immediately following stanny1's news of the release of that part.)
guess i didn't get the redesigned acuator system, i thought i did! oh well, we'll see how long this fix takes them... this time!!
other than that, i've had no other real problems... oh, there was that burnt out low beam i had about 2/3 weeks after getting the car... guess that's not that bad!
Did the window fall but the mechanism still operates? Or does it look like the window is still attached to the "trolley" but the cable is all jammed up? Maybe they didn't really fix the problem with the "big black plastic plug" falling out that fixes the window glass to the "trolley".
From Automotive News...."The brand is adopting a new dealership look that speaks luxury through granite and sandstone and communicates modern design with rectangular and linear shapes."
From Automotive News this week,....Lincoln's "new car line will be built around European-style power and handling characteristics, reflecting Lincoln's efforts to raise brand cachet to the levels enjoyed by BMW and Mercedes-Benz
Lincon will freshen all their models except the brand new Blackwood next year as 2003 models come out. Thatincludes the LS, Navigator and Town Car. The COntinental will go away for a while. Coming later will be a 3-Series sized vehicle, code-named D310. ALso planned are a baby Navigator, and a Lincoln convertible, performance sedan and coupe.
Glad I've been able to fill in for giowa and get you riled up. I have the sad feeling that giowa has gone soft on us and has started to conform to group norms. (:- Well you may be right, after 24 Fords in the last 30 years it may be time for a change. Another one of Ford marketing's gaffs, the decision to drop the Ford Citibank rebate credit cards, will make the decision to change easier. My real objection is to what appears to be Ford's brand management & market positioning. As an engineer it pains me to see goodies that the engineering department has slaved to develop withheld from the market place due to brand management decisions. Remember when GM owned 70% of the US market and the US Justice department was threatening to investigate GM? Well it didn't take all that long for GM's brand mis-management plus their bean counter and marketing stupidity to cut their market share in half. As a Ford stockholder I don't want to see Ford succumb to the same disease. Like cdn..... I'm also concerned about Ford's ability to technically lead. We are now into the 3rd model year of the LS and besides Mark's new PCM software, the most significant change to the LS has been the new cup holders. As for when my LS lease runs out, I'm thinking like cdnpinhead and looking closely at Audi. Looks like the Germans are once again technically beating the US companies as the new A4 will have a CVT transmission available. At least Audi & BMW are spending their R&D dollars on cars not SUV's & trucks.
If this has already been asked and answered, sorry for the repeat. I need to replace my 00 LS 8 non sport cabin A/C filter. Where can I buy a replacement filter besides the dealer? I've checked several parts stores and they don't stock/won't order the part.
This almost slipped by me. I happened to drive by the location and saw signs on the road so I stopped in without a reservation. They said it was pretty full and to come back the next day. Instead I went home and registered via internet for the following day. Naturally, they did not have my reservation when I got there, but is was not crowded and I was able to enter. Lines were short and after about an hour, I was able to get out of one car and directly into another for some real back to back comparisons. I drove all of the cars, none of the trucks. Even doubled up on the BMW 540 and Catera.
I was most interested in the 540 vs STS. I have an STS and always considered the 540 for my next car. Still confused, STS is stronger acceleration, 540 is better stopping, and I cant distinguish a winner for cornering. The Jag was not that impressive (under steer). This track was pretty open and allowed some good speeds.
Entry level. Lincoln LS is the clear winner for me. I should have run this one again to confirm my initial feeling. Catera was OK, the Merc Benz C320 was OK. This track was tight, required large steering wheel spins.
Large Sedans, DTS is better acceleration, MB was bland performer. I was warned for driving too fast here with the DTS so I could not treat the Lexus equally.
Because of the light crowds, I was able to run the timed track 4 times. Times kept getting better with familiarity, but I missed the hat by less than a half second in the end. Once again, this was a tight track with lots of steering wheel action. Every drive I did, I used "drive", never played with any shifting. I wanted to know how these auto transmissions reacted. Some of them where slow to respond out of a turn and you had to hit the gas early to get the punch when you wanted it. All in all, the timed course, and entry class course were not representative of my driving at all. I am never interested in the fastest U-turn vehicle. On winding roads, the steering wheel rarely goes more than half way around. These parking lot autocrosses are designed for go-carts!!
However, I am very glad I stumbled on this event, I would have been kicking myself all year if I found out it was right by my house and I missed it. Now, even more than ever, I want to participate in one of the Petty NASCAR driving schools.
1. The Automotive News article was most interesting. But a bit depressing for LS. A "refreshening" and "reskinning" in MY 03 doesn't sound like much to me. Then we have to wait til '05 or '06 for "redesign". Heck, I'll probably not like the new sheetmetal. And no word about more power (e.g., VVT) or manual transmission. Must be putting their money into the shortened DEW platform. That might make the Mustang or the projected Ford 49 more viable options, if you like coupes.
Not sure I'd place too much confidence in any prognostications beyond MY '03. Ford's finances not in great shape. USA profits down and under pressure big time. Europe improving but can't make up for losses in Ford's biggest market. Recalls, tire fiasco, reduced sales, increased marketing incentives, etc. have seriously eaten into cash flow projections. Ford has even cut back on the stock buy-back program (a waste of billions from day one). All of this will impact new product development. Esp. if we go into recession or see vehicle sales stagnate.
2. slunar: Not necessarily getting soft. But waistline has expanded a bit over past 6 months. Am going on diet and increasing exercise.
IIRC it was reported here awhile back that the 2003 model would get a power increase. Since I think Jag is introducing their larger displacement engines at the same time (3.3 and 4.3) then it would make sense. I suppose Lincoln could either stick with the 3.0 and 4.0 and add VVT or use the larger blocks without VVT. Either way Jag retains their edge and Lincoln should get more power.
Gee, Bajabill, give me your STS with the TC off and I'll bring you back a car with shredded front tires. As far as cornering goes, just try a four wheel drift with both cars and see which one ends up in the trees (TC off,of course). Pretty soon, Cadillac, like Lincoln, will fully return to RWD. So sell the STS soon, as resale value will fall with the new Caddy RWDs. I used to dream of Northstars and Intechs in RWD platforms to really battle the Imports and now its happening. It has been a shame to waste those engines in FWD platforms. Such potential! I can't wait to see a RWD Northstar at the sloloms. FWD requires TC to counter the FWD physics problem - trying to get the same wheels to steer and accelerate at the same time. Without TC, the second torque overcomes traction on the sterring tires, you ain't steering anymore. On a RWD car, you can steer by modulating the throttle. The LS, with it's 50-50 weight balance, does righteous controllable four wheel drifts (TC off please!). You'll love the experience. Too bad those demo guys wouldn't let you do the dance at the limit. Stanny1, who "lays rubber" sideways.
the LS really felt like a rear wheel drive car. The catera and c320 did not feel like they were pushed around and thru the turns. I really wanted to take the LS to the faster course. But, it may have shown its power colors there.
Granted we are comparing a 1996 (Impala) to a 2000 or 2001 (LS), I dont *think* a Impala will "walk all over a LS". Per Edmunds, the Impala generates 260 hp from 5.7 liters. (LSV8 generates 252hp from 3.9) The Impala weighs 4036 lbs, a few hundred lbs heavier than the LS. The Impala uses 1996 era suspension, vs the aluminum pieces in the LS. The Impala has No Traction Control, No Stability System, and No Side Air bags (for all you safety minded folk). Edmunds didnt list any performance times for the Impala SS.
What categories does the V8 Impala walk all over a LSV8? Handling? Slalom? Cornering G's? Agility? Braking? I assume with it's much, much larger engine, that the extra torque might give it an acceleration advantage, but without finding any performance numbers to go against, its hard to tell. Even then, it would have to be fairly quick to produce acceleration numbers to "walk all over" a 7.2 0-60mph time, right?
ronniepooh: If you are even in Des Moines, Kansas City, or Omaha. Let me know. Maybe you could take my SS for a spin.
Guessing I'm the only one here who can comment from lots of real world ownership & driving. Over 30K miles in LS8 Sport and 20K miles in SS. My '96 SS has been in shop for one item. Took one day. LS in shop too many times and days to count. You can't compare '96 safety equipment to '00 equipment. But SS did have dual airbags, huge 4-wheel disc brakes, aggressive 17 inch rubber, etc. I paid $25,600 new in 5/96. At MSRP (no discounting) with all available options.
Check out the comparison test data for SS and LS. Close acceleration and top speed for LS8. C&D's test had her turning 0-60 under 7.0 secs. Outstanding braking performance. SS skidpad numbers in .83-.86 range. SS won every published comparison test she participated in back then.
Based on the axle ratio discussion concerning LS, not sure whether to trust the early publised 0-60 or 1/4 mile times for LS8. Mine has 3.31:1, not the 3.58:1 shown for most test results. All the SS published test results showed her with the proper 3.07:1 ratio.
SS had 17/25 mpg EPA sticker. Uses regular octane. 23 plus gallon tank. 20 cubic feet trunk. Gobs of interior room. She just needed manual tranny (there was one 6-speed manual built), better seats, and IRS. Forget who is the big LSD fan, but she had one standard.
But hey, I love both my LS8 Sport and my SS. They are different animals. SS is badder. More aggressive. Almost anti-social. LS is more sophisticated. Subtle but effective. IF only I could combine the best of both into one modern platform! Guess the M5 or some MB AMG products are like that but too expensive. I can't wait to see the '03 Mercury Marauder. (Doubt I'll buy one but I will look.)
I can't find a search function, but would use it if I could.
I have need to pull a trailer with my V8 2000 LS. Are there any good hitches out there or does the design of the rear air dam prohibit. I'm willing to cut a hole if I can find a way to plug it when the receiver is not installed.
Flame if you have to, but I need to pull a trailer sometimes.
Greg Wichita '85 Blazer S10 4X4 (for hunting) 160,000 miles '92 Ford Tempo (kid's school car) 115,000 miles '00 Honda Valkyrie 1500 Interstat (for fun) 7000 miles '00 Lincoln LS (for the wife)16000 miles
I have a 2001 Lincoln AS bought in March 2000. I live in Houston and I have a mold smell coming from the air conditioning. The dealer says it is only has a 12/12 warranty on that and living in Houston makes that happen and I will have to live with it. He wants to pull the evaporator coil and do something to take the mold out at the tune of $175. I have owned a number of cars and have never had this until I got this Lincoln. Is he right? Will this work? I am going to complain to Lincoln about this (probably to no avail). I would rather have a on-moldy air conditioning unit than the crystal champagne flutes if you get my drift.
While browsing the latest Road and Track, reading about the new Thunderbird, I came across some interesting figures in Road and Tracks performance guide/chart. The following are for the automatic transmission equipped LS's with Sport Packages.
The 0-60 for a LSV6 Auto is 9.1 The 0-60 for a LSV8 Auto is 8.8 60-0mph braking is 142feet for both. 80-0mph braking is 239 feet for the V6 and 258 feet for the V8. The Skidpad numbers are identical at .82 The slalom numbers were 59.1 for the V8 and 59.8 for the V6 The 1/4 mile times were 16.8 for the V6 and 16.6 for the V8.
Road and Track has a footnote that states 0.5 seconds would be considered a "significant difference" between 1/4 mile times.
Why do I mention the above numbers? Basically to show that if you are going to go to the trouble of quoting car magazine numbers, it's more realistic to show numbers from the same magazine, which will usually utilize the same testers/testing/launch techniques. You be the judge and determine if the numbers above are significantly different between the V6 and V8...
Whoa! 12-12 warranty on the AC? Or just the smell? Something smells at your dealership, that's for sure. The 2001 LS has a 4 year/50000 mile warranty. If your AC stinks and it ain't cause you dropped limberger cheese behind the dash then Lincoln can/should and (maybe) will fix it for $0.
And as far as this being a Houston problem, have you or anyone you know driven an AC equipped car in Houston in the past? Did it smell? No? I didn't think so.
Finally, there have been *numerous* complaints on this forum re moldy/musty smell from the AC on LSes. You are not alone. In fact, I have a moldy smell from mine (I live in non-humid California, BTW) - for only the first coupla minutes after it powers up - but even that's not acceptable. I mentioned it to my dealer one week ago today when I went in for my 5000 mile *free* scheduled maintenance. I suggested maybe the condensate water wasn't escaping properly, as that's been speculated as a possible cause on this board. My dealer said "Inspected - NTF. Sprayed Disodorizer(sic)." This seems to be the current Lincoln fix for this problem as others have mentioned their dealer spraying deodorizer into the AC ducts too. Seems bogus to me, though it's been cool here for a spell and I haven't used AC much so I can't say it aint fixed, but I doubt it is.
Anyway, it seems obvious that there is an issue with this that Lincoln needs to look at. If *anyone* on the board has a successful visit to LM service that fixes this, please pass it along. Meanwhile, astro, I would start escalating this if I were you.
The table shown in the Aug 2001 issue of R&T shows the LS8 data was obtained from 12/99 issue. In the 12/99 issue, R&T did a comparo between six V8 powered 4-door sedans, with speed tests conducted at Mojave Airport. Clearly, atmospheric conditions (ambient temperatures, pressure, humidity, altitude, etc.) played a part in the data they obtained during this test and should only be used in comparison with the other vehicles present. The LS8 "numbers" cannot be directly compared with the LS6 data shown in the magazine you reference (which, per the Aug 2001 table, refers to data obtained from the 7/00 issue).
If you think one magazine provides "uniform" test methods, why does the 9/99 issue of R&T report a 0-60 time of 7.3 seconds for the LS8?
Another footnote you neglected to quote was that 0.3 second difference in 0-60 mph is considered "significant".
Personally, I can't understand why a magazine, publishing test data in a tabular format, knowing it will be used for comparitive purposes, can so mis-represent reality. So much for the integrity of the automotive press.
LLSOC has scheduled LS MANIA 2-HOMECOMING for Wixom, MI on Friday, Oct.12 to coincide with the Ford Racing Centennial at Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village, whichs runs on Oct. 13-14. Two factory tours will be available on Friday, Oct.12. One in the morning or early afternoon and one in the evening. We anticipate that this will be an extremely popular event so make sure to sign up early so the factory can plan ahead. There is the possibility, however slight, that the factory may be shut down due to production demand so while we might not see the line in action we will still be able to tour it and see how a LS is made. There are no plans for the plant to be shut down but you never know.
The Ford Racing Centennial will have over 200 Ford racing cars on display along with the drivers who raced them over the years. This is a once-in-a-lifetime event that is not to be missed if you are any kind of automotive racing fan.
Combine the tour with the Centennial and you have a great opportunity for a wonderful car-filled weekend!
I am working on getting group rates for the Dearborn Inn, which is a historic hotel. The first airport hotel, it was where Henry Ford had most of his executives stay. It is now run by Marriott. Current group rate is $99/night. I'm also checking on group rates for the Henry Ford Museum to get us a break off of the standard price.
I will be creating a page for the event so you will be able to get the details from there. Please use the LLSOC board Homecoming topic to indicate if you are going to attend, what time you may be arriving, how many spots to reserve for the tour and how many tickets you need for Greenfield Village.
This is a LLSOC members-only event, and as part of that status, the Wixom plant managers are looking forward to participating in a round-table discussion with the members to get input on a variety of topics. This will be a unique opportunity to talk directly with the people responsible for the manufacture of our LS!
Thanx for expounding and clarifying your data points. I saw the footnote with something about "atmospheric conditions" or something like that, but wrongly assumed that meant that they utilized some formula to adjust the numbers to compensate for any negative atmospheric conditions.
I totally agree with your last paragraph, which is why real-world driving is so important to actual buyers. Example: The new Q45 0-60mph claims by Nissan...
For the 12/99 test, the footnote on page 101 is most informative:
"Acceleration times were performed at an elevation of 2790 ft. Use these numbers for comparison only."
And the story opens: "It's a warm 6:00 A.M. at Mojave's Airport long flat taxiway...." Later says "one of my favorite intersections of longitude and latitude, Mojave Airport, where if you get up very early in the morning, you'll understand why the horizon's so flat and empty: It's the desert sunrise, when the atmosphere seems to transform into a gigantic cathedral of amber stained-glass.
That is why the Road Test Summary data for this report, shown each month, has footnote 8 next to the LS8's acceleration numbers: "altitutde-affected". This test shows a 3.58:1 axle ratio.
In this comparison test the LS8 Sport took 8.8 secs, the Jag S-type 4.0 took 8.5 secs, MB E430 took 8.2 secs, Audi A6 4.2 took 8.0 secs, Lexus GS400 took 7.5 secs, and BMW 540i took 6.6 secs.
R&T's 9/99 full test report only on LS8 Sport has 0-60 at 7.3 secs. Says with 3.58:1 rear axle. Test conditions for that report: "78 degrees f, 39% humidity, elevation 1010 ft, and calm wind."
ronniepooh: No one here, myself included, has argued that LS6 Sport, auto or manual, is not a very, very capable handler. Highly similar to LS8 Sport. Just lacks the ponies.
Nah, I don't rile that easily. Too much work. A 24X Ford customer? and a stockholder? I can appreciate your frustration a little better. I'd love to see Lincoln keep up what they've started, but it's hard to be optimistic. The easiest and cheapest improvement available to them is horsepower, and it's sitting there on the shelf. Yet they sit on their hands. (The '02 Maxima will have a 260 hp option. I'm no street racer, but if I were, I wouldn't enjoy the receding view of those ugly tail lights.) And, to repeat myself, I don't think performance enthusiasts are the main target market for the LS, at least not anymore. I still see more "Seasoned Citizens" driving them than anyone else.
It is indeed frustrating to watch them stand still with this car, given Ford's resources. As I'm not a stockholder in Ford, my only vote is my checkbook. So, in about five years, I'll do what I did last year: a lot of research, a lot of driving, and buy the car that best suits me for the money I'm willing to spend. I feel some brand loyalty because of my current experience, but not enough to settle for second best, or less.
Now, if you want to rile me up, suggest the Loss Leader/Showroom Attraction theory. That is, Ford should pull out all the stops and make the LS a true M5 killer, and profitability and affordability be damned. Like Chrysler did/does with the Viper. Then we'll discuss Chrysler as a model of corporate management.
Comments
Lots of interesting numbers. Like interior volume. And I was a bit surprised to see a brick-like .379 co-efficient of drag.
Guess we'll also have to check out the final drive ratio for Jag S-type. Does S-type 4.0 use 3.58 or 3.31? Was it ever changed? How about S-type 3.0?
Jim Rodgers cleared it up a few months later when he pointed out that the original concept was for all cars except the "sport" models to have the (partially) real wood steering wheel. As you may recall, they had trouble with the wood steering wheel vendor and ended up putting the leather sport wheel on everything for the 2000 MY. Seems like they even offered later to replace the leather wheels with wood for those who wanted to change. I wasn't interested, so wasn't paying close attention. Also, they may have gone back to the wood wheel in 2001 -- I'd lost interest by then & once again wasn't paying enough attention to remember now.
1. Stating that speeds beyond 60-80 MPH are critical to enjoying a sport sedan. Maybe for you but not for me. Not even legal in most places.
2. Using you mom's car as a performance test bed anytime, especially at night with 5 people and luggage while "passing quickly on a two lane road". Not safe and poor judgement I do believe.
3. "A V8 Sport is superior to a V6 Sport" for you, not for everybody. You have a "need" for more high end acceleration, I have a "want" to save almost $4000 bucks and well over 3MPG.
4. One does not have to be a 69 year old Gramdma to enjoy the many delights of the V6 Sport, one of which is fairly good performance for a heavy car. That's for me of course, obviously not for you, old road test quotes not withstanding.
Having spent better than 10,000 miles first in a LS V8, then in a LS V6 Sport, I can state unequivocally that they BOTH are SUPERIOR automobiles - just a wee bit different. I will not get in a flame throwing contest with you G-man, it's just that us 1555C's sometimes have to keep both the record, and air intell guys, straight.
Put the on the Borla and open up that VERY restrictive airbox and watch that V6 come to life! It is WAY more powerful than my Duratec equipped Sable!
The reason you can't get above 3000 RPM in drive without the car moving is a function of the engine torque and the torque converter characterisics.
You have found what is called the "stall speed." That's the maximum speed the engine can turn in gear with the car not moving. Changing the torque converter can raise the stall speed, and raising engine torque will also raise the stall speed.
The neutral rev limiter has no effect on 0-60 times.
Mark
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http://lincoln.lmtraining.com/cgi-bin/saISAPI.dll/SourceBookLincoln.class/vehicles/vehicle.jsp?vehicleid=27
And to scottc8 (#3861) -- You're exactly right, as well. For those of us to whom the LS was in fact an entry into the (near) luxury sedan market, what we buy as our next vehicle may or may not be of interest to the Ford Motor Company. Many of slunar's points direct us to the conclusion that FoMoCo is willing to let the "hard-core enthusiasts" (or whatever those of us who populate this board are referred to as) go elsewhere while they continue to sell to the other 98% of the LS market with vehicles that are lacking (in our opinion).
As for me, I've been gathering Audi data of late. I already have a complete collection of BMW stuff, and we'll see where it all leads in 3 - 5 years.
For those new to this board, I own a 2000 manual, which I like a lot. I feel there's room for (significant) improvement, however. FoMoCo may not. Time will tell.
(Aside from my point, Lincoln seems more receptive to customers' opinions than most manufacturers.)
Is my car exactly what I want in every way? Of course not. Am I satisfied that it delivers what was promised for the price paid? Absolutely. I'm hopeful that enthusiast drivers represent enough of the customer base to influence Ford's decisions, but, if not, my next car will be something else.
Of course Ford makes decisions based on profit. What other criteria should they use? What criteria should the business you own or work for use?
But wonder if it is real wood. Pulled out the artsy '00 and '01 MY brochures. The '00 brochure makes no mention of the steering wheel in the body of the brochure or anywhere in the text. On the Specificication Page it says "Wood and leather-wrapped steering wheel (n/a with Sport Package)". The '01 brochures says the same on its specifications page; however, it has a text paragraph with color picture. That text says "the 2001 Lincoln LS has a handsome, WOOD-GRAINED(1), power adjustable steering wheel" "(1) leather wrapped on Sport Package". (emphasis added) Does "wood-grained" mean the same as being real wood???
These two brochures are odd in regard to the shifter knob. Can't find any mention of a wood shifter knob. The Specifications Page shows "leather shift knob" with the Sport Package. The big full color picture of the interior shows similar/identical looking "wood" on the side door panels, ashtray cover, shifter, and steering wheel. Wondering if it is all merely "wood-grained" plastic or other compound.
Too bad there is no Zebrano-wood or similar option for LS as there is on DeVille. When I hear wood, I think wood on the dash and side door panels. I prefer leather on steering wheel and shifter.
If there is anyone on this board who is the opposite of a group-thinker it is me. Whether it has been discussing engine configurations, dealer service, build quality, the value (or lack thereof) of the SST, DSP, etc., I don't shy away from expressing my views even when I'm in the clear minority. But I will concede a point if I am proven wrong and I do try to listen to opposing points of view.
When I discussed the meagre low- and mid-end performance on my mom's '00 LS6 base auto when five of us were in it, I didn't say that was passing anyone on 2-lane roads. I did that in town from stoplights/signs and out of town in rural area with no one around taking son to scout camp. And I did NOT do it at night. It doesn't get dark around here now until around 2100 hrs CST. I was driving it from about 1700-2030 hrs.
As for driving at speeds at or above 60-80 mph, that comment was primarily in regard to passing acceleration times, not so much sustained cruising. When I pass someone on a 2-lane road, the figure I worry about is how quickly can I get around 'em. Going from 60 to 80 mph quickly is critical. And if you spend any time driving out west, you'll routinely encounter people safely driving long periods of time in excess of 80 mph. Lots of posters here have discussed this.
The LS6 and LS8 Sports are similar in ride and handling. But the LS8 Sport is quite demonstrably superior in regard to acceleration numbers when comparing the automatics. Thus, by definition, something that is superior to another object in an important area is inherently superior overall. I think, and I think most others think, that acceleration is usually an important factor in high performance sport sedans. You want to discount acceleration. I don't discount any factor. Your almost saying that if Chevy could make a Metro 3-cyl engine 3-door handle as well as your LS6 Sport auto that that would make the two cars equal overall and the Metro owner likely saved $20K?
My mom's '00 LS6 base auto does NOT get 3 or more MPG over my '00 LS8 Sport. I've driven lengthy distances in both. On mostly interstates driving 74-80 mph with similar passenger and luggage loads, her's gets only about 1 mpg better. But she sacrifices lots of standing start and mid-range passing acceleration.
And my '69-yr-old mom complains about the anemic acceleration times from her LS6 base auto. Before it she had a Caprice Classic with 5.7L V-8 and a Chrysler Concorde with 3.5L V-6. Both of these cars out accelerate her LS6. She misses the acceleration at times she wants or needs it and doesn't have it. She has driven my LS8 Sport and doesn't have the acceleration issues.
Let me put it to you this way. Giowa, the car guy, also drives a Hyundai. To top it off, he was thrown off of the Hyundai message board. Does life get any worse than that? What next, getting thrown off of the AMC Pacer list? ;-)
Mark
I guess the reason some of us are worried about the future of the LS has to do with the early direction the car was said to be headed -- direct competitor to the BMW, sold in quantity in Europe & around the world, etc. The reality has fallen well short, and I guess I'm concerned that the bean-counters are now in charge, and substantial improvement in the LS appears less likely.
Somehow, BMW has made a business of selling performance automobiles. They make a profit, and as was rightly pointed out a few posts ago, isn't that the point? The question is whether Lincoln really wants to pursue the enthusiast market as BMW, Audi and others have done. My impression, based on the past year's observations, is that the original crew who sincerely thought so and worked hard to make it happen, has fallen from favor.
I'd love to be wrong.
ronniepooh: I wouldn't pick on Hyundai. Notice how their sales are going thru the roof? And how they are introducing lots of new models? XG300 (w/5-speed automatic) & Santa Fe SUV. Guessing Lincoln is wishing they had had as much market success as Hyundai in past 3 MYs.
My Sonata GLS V-6 is a business car. My el cheapo employer gives me only 22 cents a mile. That is pretty limiting. Needed a decent-sized 4-dr sedan. My car is loaded with leather, sunroof, ABS/TC, (very rare) 5-speed manual, CD/cassette, PS/PL/PW, heated mirrors, pollen filter, and more. Where could I get all this for only $18,400, plus the great warranty? Oh, and in the first 23,000 miles the only problem I've had was a headlight burned out. Wish I could say same for my LS8 Sport; she had a lengthy laundry list of problems in the first 23,000 miles.
And if you are going to slam my lowly, reliable Hyundai, could you at least also mention that my baby is my '96 5.7L V-8 Impala SS. Bought her new in '96 and she has only 23K miles on her. She'll walk all over all of our LS's, mine included. More room inside and trunk. And better fuel economy, requiring regular unleaded. Just needs IRS.
ronniepooh & karzz: Please stop the disinformation. I have never been banned, removed, or thrown out of any site. Sure, made some enemies, not unlike ronniepooh and others, who sometimes wanted me to leave but I post here, there, and anywhere.
guess i didn't get the redesigned acuator system, i thought i did! oh well, we'll see how long this fix takes them... this time!!
other than that, i've had no other real problems... oh, there was that burnt out low beam i had about 2/3 weeks after getting the car... guess that's not that bad!
with 16K miles, i'm still very happy with my LS!
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories0730/lincoln730.htm
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories0730/psa730.htm
Lincon will freshen all their models except the brand new Blackwood next year as 2003 models come out. Thatincludes the LS, Navigator and Town Car. The COntinental will go away for a while. Coming later will be a 3-Series sized vehicle, code-named D310. ALso planned are a baby Navigator, and a Lincoln convertible, performance sedan and coupe.
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories0730/fordfuture730.htm
Thanks
road so I stopped in without a reservation. They said it was pretty full and to come
back the next day. Instead I went home and registered via internet for the following
day. Naturally, they did not have my reservation when I got there, but is was not
crowded and I was able to enter. Lines were short and after about an hour, I was able
to get out of one car and directly into another for some real back to back
comparisons. I drove all of the cars, none of the trucks. Even doubled up on the BMW
540 and Catera.
I was most interested in the 540 vs STS. I have an STS and always considered the
540 for my next car. Still confused, STS is stronger acceleration, 540 is better
stopping, and I cant distinguish a winner for cornering. The Jag was not that
impressive (under steer). This track was pretty open and allowed some good speeds.
Entry level. Lincoln LS is the clear winner for me. I should have run this one again to
confirm my initial feeling. Catera was OK, the Merc Benz C320 was OK. This track
was tight, required large steering wheel spins.
Large Sedans, DTS is better acceleration, MB was bland performer. I was warned for
driving too fast here with the DTS so I could not treat the Lexus equally.
Because of the light crowds, I was able to run the timed track 4 times. Times kept
getting better with familiarity, but I missed the hat by less than a half second in the
end. Once again, this was a tight track with lots of steering wheel action. Every drive I
did, I used "drive", never played with any shifting. I wanted to know how these auto
transmissions reacted. Some of them where slow to respond out of a turn and you
had to hit the gas early to get the punch when you wanted it. All in all, the timed
course, and entry class course were not representative of my driving at all. I am never
interested in the fastest U-turn vehicle. On winding roads, the steering wheel rarely
goes more than half way around. These parking lot autocrosses are designed for
go-carts!!
However, I am very glad I stumbled on this event, I would have been kicking myself all
year if I found out it was right by my house and I missed it. Now, even more than ever,
I want to participate in one of the Petty NASCAR driving schools.
Not sure I'd place too much confidence in any prognostications beyond MY '03. Ford's finances not in great shape. USA profits down and under pressure big time. Europe improving but can't make up for losses in Ford's biggest market. Recalls, tire fiasco, reduced sales, increased marketing incentives, etc. have seriously eaten into cash flow projections. Ford has even cut back on the stock buy-back program (a waste of billions from day one). All of this will impact new product development. Esp. if we go into recession or see vehicle sales stagnate.
2. slunar: Not necessarily getting soft. But waistline has expanded a bit over past 6 months. Am going on diet and increasing exercise.
So sell the STS soon, as resale value will fall with the new Caddy RWDs. I used to dream of Northstars and Intechs in RWD platforms to really battle the Imports and now its happening. It has been a shame to waste those engines in FWD platforms. Such potential! I can't wait to see a RWD Northstar at the sloloms. FWD requires TC to counter the FWD physics problem - trying to get the same wheels to steer and accelerate at the same time. Without TC, the second torque overcomes
traction on the sterring tires, you ain't steering anymore. On a RWD car, you can steer by modulating the throttle. The LS, with it's 50-50 weight balance, does righteous controllable four wheel drifts (TC off please!). You'll love the experience. Too bad those demo guys wouldn't let you do the dance at the limit. Stanny1, who "lays rubber" sideways.
Per Edmunds, the Impala generates 260 hp from 5.7 liters. (LSV8 generates 252hp from 3.9)
The Impala weighs 4036 lbs, a few hundred lbs heavier than the LS.
The Impala uses 1996 era suspension, vs the aluminum pieces in the LS.
The Impala has No Traction Control, No Stability System, and No Side Air bags (for all you safety minded folk).
Edmunds didnt list any performance times for the Impala SS.
What categories does the V8 Impala walk all over a LSV8? Handling? Slalom? Cornering G's? Agility? Braking? I assume with it's much, much larger engine, that the extra torque might give it an acceleration advantage, but without finding any performance numbers to go against, its hard to tell. Even then, it would have to be fairly quick to produce acceleration numbers to "walk all over" a 7.2 0-60mph time, right?
Guessing I'm the only one here who can comment from lots of real world ownership & driving. Over 30K miles in LS8 Sport and 20K miles in SS. My '96 SS has been in shop for one item. Took one day. LS in shop too many times and days to count. You can't compare '96 safety equipment to '00 equipment. But SS did have dual airbags, huge 4-wheel disc brakes, aggressive 17 inch rubber, etc. I paid $25,600 new in 5/96. At MSRP (no discounting) with all available options.
Check out the comparison test data for SS and LS. Close acceleration and top speed for LS8. C&D's test had her turning 0-60 under 7.0 secs. Outstanding braking performance. SS skidpad numbers in .83-.86 range. SS won every published comparison test she participated in back then.
Based on the axle ratio discussion concerning LS, not sure whether to trust the early publised 0-60 or 1/4 mile times for LS8. Mine has 3.31:1, not the 3.58:1 shown for most test results. All the SS published test results showed her with the proper 3.07:1 ratio.
SS had 17/25 mpg EPA sticker. Uses regular octane. 23 plus gallon tank. 20 cubic feet trunk. Gobs of interior room. She just needed manual tranny (there was one 6-speed manual built), better seats, and IRS. Forget who is the big LSD fan, but she had one standard.
But hey, I love both my LS8 Sport and my SS. They are different animals. SS is badder. More aggressive. Almost anti-social. LS is more sophisticated. Subtle but effective. IF only I could combine the best of both into one modern platform! Guess the M5 or some MB AMG products are like that but too expensive. I can't wait to see the '03 Mercury Marauder. (Doubt I'll buy one but I will look.)
I have need to pull a trailer with my V8 2000 LS. Are there any good hitches out there or does the design of the rear air dam prohibit. I'm willing to cut a hole if I can find a way to plug it when the receiver is not installed.
Flame if you have to, but I need to pull a trailer sometimes.
Greg
Wichita
'85 Blazer S10 4X4 (for hunting) 160,000 miles
'92 Ford Tempo (kid's school car) 115,000 miles
'00 Honda Valkyrie 1500 Interstat (for fun) 7000 miles
'00 Lincoln LS (for the wife)16000 miles
The 0-60 for a LSV6 Auto is 9.1
The 0-60 for a LSV8 Auto is 8.8
60-0mph braking is 142feet for both.
80-0mph braking is 239 feet for the V6 and 258 feet for the V8.
The Skidpad numbers are identical at .82
The slalom numbers were 59.1 for the V8 and 59.8 for the V6
The 1/4 mile times were 16.8 for the V6 and 16.6 for the V8.
Road and Track has a footnote that states 0.5 seconds would be considered a "significant difference" between 1/4 mile times.
Why do I mention the above numbers? Basically to show that if you are going to go to the trouble of quoting car magazine numbers, it's more realistic to show numbers from the same magazine, which will usually utilize the same testers/testing/launch techniques. You be the judge and determine if the numbers above are significantly different between the V6 and V8...
There are hitches that will fit the LS with no problem! We use "Draw-Tite" hitch #36282 on our cars with no modifications to the fascia.
And as far as this being a Houston problem, have you or anyone you know driven an AC equipped car in Houston in the past? Did it smell? No? I didn't think so.
Finally, there have been *numerous* complaints on this forum re moldy/musty smell from the AC on LSes. You are not alone. In fact, I have a moldy smell from mine (I live in non-humid California, BTW) - for only the first coupla minutes after it powers up - but even that's not acceptable. I mentioned it to my dealer one week ago today when I went in for my 5000 mile *free* scheduled maintenance. I suggested maybe the condensate water wasn't escaping properly, as that's been speculated as a possible cause on this board. My dealer said "Inspected - NTF. Sprayed Disodorizer(sic)." This seems to be the current Lincoln fix for this problem as others have mentioned their dealer spraying deodorizer into the AC ducts too. Seems bogus to me, though it's been cool here for a spell and I haven't used AC much so I can't say it aint fixed, but I doubt it is.
Anyway, it seems obvious that there is an issue with this that Lincoln needs to look at. If *anyone* on the board has a successful visit to LM service that fixes this, please pass it along. Meanwhile, astro, I would start escalating this if I were you.
George
If you think one magazine provides "uniform" test methods, why does the 9/99 issue of R&T report a 0-60 time of 7.3 seconds for the LS8?
Another footnote you neglected to quote was that 0.3 second difference in 0-60 mph is considered "significant".
Personally, I can't understand why a magazine, publishing test data in a tabular format, knowing it will be used for comparitive purposes, can so mis-represent reality. So much for the integrity of the automotive press.
Two factory tours will be available on Friday, Oct.12. One in the morning or early afternoon and one in the evening. We anticipate that this will be an extremely popular event so make sure to sign up early so the factory can plan ahead. There is the possibility, however slight, that the factory may be shut down due to production demand so while we might not see the line in action we will still be able to tour it and see how a LS is made. There are no plans for the plant to be shut down but you never know.
The Ford Racing Centennial will have over 200 Ford racing cars on display along with the drivers who raced them over the years. This is a once-in-a-lifetime event that is not to be missed if you are any kind of automotive racing fan.
Combine the tour with the Centennial and you have a great opportunity for a wonderful car-filled weekend!
I am working on getting group rates for the Dearborn Inn, which is a historic hotel. The first airport hotel, it was where Henry Ford had most of his executives stay. It is now run by Marriott. Current group rate is $99/night. I'm also checking on group rates for the Henry Ford Museum to get us a break off of the standard price.
I will be creating a page for the event so you will be able to get the details from there. Please use the LLSOC board Homecoming topic to indicate if you are going to attend, what time you may be arriving, how many spots to reserve for the tour and how many tickets you need for Greenfield Village.
This is a LLSOC members-only event, and as part of that status, the Wixom plant managers are looking forward to participating in a round-table discussion with the members to get input on a variety of topics. This will be a unique opportunity to talk directly with the people responsible for the manufacture of our LS!
Brian
I totally agree with your last paragraph, which is why real-world driving is so important to actual buyers. Example: The new Q45 0-60mph claims by Nissan...
"Acceleration times were performed at an elevation of 2790 ft. Use these numbers for comparison only."
And the story opens: "It's a warm 6:00 A.M. at Mojave's Airport long flat taxiway...." Later says "one of my favorite intersections of longitude and latitude, Mojave Airport, where if you get up very early in the morning, you'll understand why the horizon's so flat and empty: It's the desert sunrise, when the atmosphere seems to transform into a gigantic cathedral of amber stained-glass.
That is why the Road Test Summary data for this report, shown each month, has footnote 8 next to the LS8's acceleration numbers: "altitutde-affected". This test shows a 3.58:1 axle ratio.
In this comparison test the LS8 Sport took 8.8 secs, the Jag S-type 4.0 took 8.5 secs, MB E430 took 8.2 secs, Audi A6 4.2 took 8.0 secs, Lexus GS400 took 7.5 secs, and BMW 540i took 6.6 secs.
R&T's 9/99 full test report only on LS8 Sport has 0-60 at 7.3 secs. Says with 3.58:1 rear axle. Test conditions for that report: "78 degrees f, 39% humidity, elevation 1010 ft, and calm wind."
ronniepooh: No one here, myself included, has argued that LS6 Sport, auto or manual, is not a very, very capable handler. Highly similar to LS8 Sport. Just lacks the ponies.
It is indeed frustrating to watch them stand still with this car, given Ford's resources.
As I'm not a stockholder in Ford, my only vote is my checkbook. So, in about five years, I'll do what I did last year: a lot of research, a lot of driving, and buy the car that best suits me for the money I'm willing to spend. I feel some brand loyalty because of my current experience, but not enough to settle for second best, or less.
Now, if you want to rile me up, suggest the Loss Leader/Showroom Attraction theory. That is, Ford should pull out all the stops and make the LS a true M5 killer, and profitability and affordability be damned. Like Chrysler did/does with the Viper. Then we'll discuss Chrysler as a model of corporate management.