This might start a rather bizarre discussion but I'm curious. Why are horsepower numbers so important to us? If a car has adequate power to safely negotiateany situation, e.g. overtaking, merging, etc., why do we crave more horsepower? Is it just bragging rights that make us want more power than the competition? I don't think there are that many of us that floor it all the time from one stoplight to the next, so why sweat a .5 second difference in 0-60mph?
Not attempting to start fights, since I'm one of the ones who has always believed in the Tim Taylor philosophy of more power, but it is an interesting paradigm, especially since we seem to be in the middle of a horsepower war.
My LS8 has more power than any car I have previously owned. That said, it is not the fastest I've ever owned. My normally aspirated '90 300ZX (222 hp) was slightly quicker to 60, and more easily attained its top speed of 140+ than my LS. I have not yet owned a car that I feel I cannot take full advantage of yet (i.e., I have found limitations every car I've owned thus far), so I'm not sure where I would "draw the line". At some point, I'm sure I would find a really scary car, I just haven't gotten there yet! I would enjoy, and use, better 0-60 sprints than the LS8 currently offers if it were offered in my price range. I'm confident that I would be able and willing to utilize a car capable of sprinting to 60 in the high 5 to low 6-second range. Of course, I'd also expect a similar advantage in the 60-100 mph range as well. I haven't given much thought to capabilities beyond that level of performance, mainly because it would probably become too cost prohibitive.
I think we're missing the REALLY important thing. HP is not the driving force (pun sorta intended). Torque is WAY more important. My 3.8L Sable had only 140ish hp but 215ftlb of torque! That car taught me about torque steer in a FWD. If you launched at half throttle or greater you had better hold on to the wheel or you would make a hard right turn! My Duratec Sable with 60 more horse but 15 fewer ftlb of torque doesn't have the torque steer that 3.8L had!
From a practical standpoint: Here in Minneapolis, we have metered freeway on-ramps. You start from a dead stop and merge into a 60-65 MPH freeway while attempting not to disrupt the oncoming traffic. WOT is not needed in my LS V8 but I frequently use 90% of it's capability. The fairly strong acceleration without torque-braking or high RPM shifts is handy. You get the job done with no fuss or fanfare and without drawing unwanted attention. In addition to the freeways, our two-lanes are busier than ever and passing areas are less frequent. Quick 50 - 70 acceleration is quite useful.
Having rationalized my need for speed, I would still want more even if I didn't need it. When I get a new car, I expect most aspects to be an improvement over my previous vehicle. Performance is a key aspect for me. Also, I expect any car I own to accelerate competitively with others in it's intended market.
Not sure there is any such thing in the abstract as "adequate power". We all drive in too many varying conditions. When I pass on 2-lane county roads at night with a car coming toward me, I always want more power. When I spent a week in Minn/St Paul area a couple years ago I wanted more power when merging on their interstate from a standing stop on the on ramp.
For me the issue is one of "relative power". Of course, I'm talking useful power that actually does translate into meaningful and obvious performance statistics which I can generate. My '00 LS8 Sport with a bit over 250 hp had an MSRP of $39,000. The new '02 Altima with 240 hp engine and 0-60 5-speed manual time of around 6.3 secs might sell for around $25,000. How is my relative power doing? Not good any more! The '00 Altima (or Maxima) was way shorter on power. Now the one is comparable and the latter will have 260 hp.
Has BMW sat still with their 3 Series? And they are always tinkering with their fine 5 and 7 Series engines. If not more HP, then more useable torque down low. Or Cadillac going to regular 87 octane with 300 HP Northstar.
With the impending demise of Continental, LS needs to pick up the power fast. What we have had wasn't top notch to begin with and is falling further and further behind. And I don't want to wait till MY 04 or 05. By then, I may have a loaded Altima, 330i, etc. I'll have as much if not more performance, safety equipment, luxury, etc. and save dough. Don't need to be a rocket scientist to see why vicious capitalistic competion is great for buyers. Sellers beware! Improve or Die!!!
Just because the new Altima, Maxima, or 3-series may add more power that translates to better straight line acceleration doesn't necessarily imply that it's a better car. You can even add in the latest safety features, and it still doesn't make the complete case. While it is true that these are important attributes for a car to posses, styling, size, ride, RWD, etc. are all attributes that still slant in the LS's favor. With complex products such as cars, one must strike a balance between the attributes that are most important to the buyer.
I think the LS is slated for a power upgrade in 2003. The complete redesign was slated for 2005. So you may only have to wait one more year. Right, Brian?? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)
P.S. The 2002 airbox modification that is made at the factory is very similar to the cobbled-up airbox mods that we have been doing. It adds an extra air intake horn into the snorkel to accept air from the gap right by the driver's side headlight.
I appreciate the insightful comments. In my mind I think back only a couple of years and the 400hp mark was exclusive to ultra high performance cars (911T), with Corvettes, Camaros, and Mustangs pushing 300.
My V8 LS is no race car, but it is beyond adequate for most driving situations I get myself into. I agree and sorta disagree with giowa. I agree that the LS should be competitive within its class. Now if I just beat an Altima by a nose in the 1/4 mile - er I mean freeway on-ramp, I am not too upset. That Altima is not a good comparison. Likewise, you could feel bad about an Integra GS-R - a 4 cyl that will easily stay up with an LS. It's just a different class of car.
I like the power my Dad's '98 STS has. It is just short of being too much (for a 4 door sedan). My guess is that the mid-size sedans will probably top out at just over 300. Any more than that and too many will be wrapped around errant trees and all our insurance will be even higher. Or the owners will be bitching about how fast their tires and brakes wear out and quit buying them.
Had my baby back from the dealer 2 weeks and now this. another rear window crash. SInce this window crashed last year I think I've had it up and down 3 times at the most. today with the heat index at 105 I decided to open the windows for a quick cooldown. With a clunk and a snap the window crashes down and stays down. same window as before passenger side rear. so much for reliability... you go consumers report... tell it like it is.
Now for the transmission. according to Mark the 01-05-05 is the same as -01-14-05. Bad news for me. I had the first one done and have repeated problems with the auto trans trying to find which gear to go to... sometimes it just hesitates and you kinda float for awhile and then it snaps into a gear. In addition if you manually downshift when slowing. everytime you go from 3 to 2 the car again seems to hesitate while floating out of gear and then kicks into 2..I was hoping the new tsb would help ...guess not... question for Mark... what do you mean the software is the same but that several calibrations were added.... what does that mean
Thanks for the info. Still a great car but it's spent way too much time at the dealer for repairs...I quess I just got a lemon compared to the rest of you guys..
While, for me handling is a huge factor (3 out of my last 4 cars had their batteries in the trunk), it's nice to be able to launch a vehicle with a standard transmission without: 1) killing it, or 2) being passed by a car costing 10K less.
Having returned recently from Europe, where standard transmissions are, in fact, standard, I've got a whole new perspective. Manufacturers "over there" actually build cars with excellent fit & finish that have 5- or 6-speed manual transmissions that handle very well. Here's the rub. Is a quattro setup the equal of RWD?
Either way, if I want more than 225 hp and a stick shift, I'll be going European. Much of my "issue" with BMW is the yuppie scum "buy it for the image rather than what it can do" factor, but Audi and others don't appear to be (at least to me) saddled with that.
Remember Ray from the southeast, who posted so much in the early days on this LS board? He's shown up in the Audi A6 board.
Just got back my car from the Dealer who told me the Regulators are on Back Order I don't know for how long but I he said "Avoid using the rear Windows" He said he has had alot coming in lately with crashing rear windows. Also They were supposed to apply the TSB for my car whose calibration was not included in the original. As a result I could not have TSB 01-01-05 Loaded. I didn't get the straight scoop on whether it was done or not. I had to take my car before it was done since they are waiting on a new brake fluid cap, besides the Regulator. If I got the New Tranny TSB I can't really feel the difference. Doubt I got it.
Anyway the Calibration is not an enhancement. So when mark was referring to a calibration, he meant a group of cars with a particular calibration were left out and thus could not take the new software.
The factory mod sounds good but IMHO, the diameter of the snorkel at its entrance to the airbox is still too small., so just adding more inlet potential to any part of the "snorkel" is not addressing this inlet limitation. My idea is open up two holes in the bottom (unfiltered lower) chamber of the airbox and epoxy or silicone seal the ends of two metallic heater hoses (2 to 2.5 inch in diameter)and direct those down to some higher pressure cool spot in the aforementioned "gap" or anywhere to the front. On my 74 Corolla SR-5, I made 6 inlet flanges, 3 for the front panel that fed 3 hoses to 3 inlet flanges bolted on the side of the air cleaner housing. Overkill for a 1600cc engine but effective. Later I designed an electronic module that contolled a spray head that shot pure methanol in a mist above the carb. The methanol richened the mixture but even more cooled the air tremendously because of methanol's high latent heat value. I guess that's why they burn methanol and not gasoline at the Indy 500 and the intake manifolds ice up on the outside. I was going to market the system but Spearco built one just like it for a really cheap price. My system used a Ford windshield washer reservoir and pump, spray nozzle, vacuum switch and a "control module" which insured the unit did not pump when the engine was off or starting. If I had time, I could build on for the LS - sort of a poor man's Nos system.
Airwolf is right. The original TSB left out some of the V8 cars. Those calibrations were not listed so the dealers were unable to apply that TSB. The new TSB has the same software, but the list of cars eligible now includes all the right cars.
The delay on a manual 3-2 is the way it is. Software can't fix that. We are working on hardware changes to help that shift.
Delays on other shifts are another problem. I recommend checking the transmission fluid level. Low level will cause delays.
Can the V6 2002 airbox be used on the 2002 V8 and why didn't they put that same less restricted airbox on the V8 anyway? The 2002 V6 airbox, with the K&N air filter, Borla exhaust and maybe the Granatelli Motor Sports- Mass Air Flow Sensor, seems the way to go to boast the V8's horsepower and torque.
Like giowa, passing on two-lanes is my biggest concern. I've owned at least two cars much faster than the LS8 from a standing start ('64 GTO & '68 442) but don't think either of them had much on the LS in terms of passing punch from 60 mph. Could be faulty memory, could be gearing, probably some of both. The gearing in the LS is perfectly matched to the torque characteristics of the V8 for the kind of driving I do.
Truthfully, this car has all the power I need. If I pass a semi from 60 mph and leave plenty of room, the car is doing 100 by the time I'm back in my lane. With, say, 50 hp more, would I be doing 110? 120? Would it matter? Are there times now when I don't feel it's safe to pass, but would with that extra power? Very doubtful.
Having said all that, would I like more power? Yes, please.
We are living in a very interesting time. When you make the conversion from the old gross horespower #'s of the 1960's to the current SAE net HP, I belive that the average car on the road has more HP than the average car in the 1960's. Torque may be a slightly different story. A lot of those revered 1960's muscle cars are not even as fast in a straight line as our memories think they are. An for every super high performance muscle car on the road in the 60's there were several hundered clunkers.
As for me, I really don't care what the HP and torque #'s are. I don't even car what the 0-60 #'s are as I rarely do a flat out 0-60 timed run (:-. I also don't want a car with a 300 or greater HP rating as many insurance companies will jack up the policy prices for those high HP cars. What matters to me it the grunt that the car has in rolling acceleration. In the case of my LS-8 the acceleration in the 60 - 80 range is great, I'm very satisfied. In the case of 10 - 40, 20 - 50 or anyting similar it just doesn't feel that it has the omph that it should. Could be the torque converter, could be the trannie ratios or could be the engine's torque curve? In these situations the LS-8 feels slower than other lower rated HP cars. The lack of performance is reflected by the somewhat anemic 0-60 #'s for the LS, especially with the 3.31 rear end. To close, your question (Brian) almost seems to pose "which would you rather have, good handling or fast acceleration". My reply is, why can't we have both?
The V8 isn't really hampered by inadequate HP/torgue, it's hampered by a less that ideal transmission. It appears the latest flash build permits a 0-60 of 7.2 seconds. But changing the 1st gear to 4.40 (but you can't just change 1st because of the transmission design) would yield a 0-60 time of 6.5 seconds. Ofcourse 10% more torque/hp would be welcomed I'm sure.
The real loser here is the V6 (manual). It appears the only hope for the V6 is a supercharger but that doesn't seem likey, so it will fade away.
I can never figure out why so many posters here are willing to accept the LS's acceleration performance as is, as if merely being adequate in acceleration is good enough, acceptable, or, as expressed by some, to be desired. When I think of "adequate" words like "mediocre" or "average" also come immediately to mind. Did I buy a serious sport sedan (my '00 LS8 Sport) with an MSRP of $39,400 for mediocre acceleration? No, because it wasn't at the time when compared to other relevant cars. Will I buy another? Not if it continues to lag and I can buy more for less or the same for less.
Why don't we settle for "adequate handling"? "Adequate braking"? "Adequate steering"? "Adequate safety"? Do we really need more than "adequate" in any of these other areas? If not, then why choose the LS? If all we want is pure "adequateness" (is there such a word?), then shouldn't we all be driving either a Buick LeSabre or Ford Crown Vic?
I'm willing to bet that the nearly uniform press consensus on the new '02 Altima SE 3.5L 240 hp manual tranny will be that she is more than adequate in key areas like acceleration, handling, steering, braking, safety equipment, etc. Not to mention value! Sure, as a FWDer she won't achieve pantheonic handling status (at least not with us RWD afficionados), but here fully independent sport suspension will ensure she is more than adequate in the handling department. And she'll likely will generate some good numbers. (I use the Altima for comparative purposes only. If a financially weak and attempting-to-recover-in-the-marketplace Nissan can seriously upgrade this lowly platform, what is Lincoln's excuse with the LS? Blew all their money on stock buyback? Firestone/Explorer fiasco? Warranty payments? SUV & truck development?)
I think one reason so many are willing to sell the LS short (i.e., expect less than she should be capable of) and defend its inadequacies in the area of acceleration is cognitive dissonance. We bought one. We paid a lot. We don't want to acknowledge its shortcomings. And since she shines in other critical areas like handling, steering, braking, etc. we are willing to pooh-pooh the one critical area she is falling behind in. But I say damn the groupthink, advocate to make the LS better today, tomorrow, and in the future!!!
The Manual V6 does need redemption, and as Nosho suggests, it may become a loser - a car without justification. It needs 3 things: a little more hp meaning mainly VVT; a deeper rear ratio with LSD; and an overdrive tranny so it doesn't rev as high in cruise like it does now (75mph=3000rpm). I know the little V6 can handle the rpm but why? Toyota just built a new five speed for the IS300, but it has an .85:1 fifth - hardly an overdrive. It still has a 3.7+ rear with LSD. It will be interesting to see if the Maxima has a Nissan-built six-speed or they buy the Getrag. Anyway, the Manual LS team has a challenge to make the car "world-class". It's their term - now they have to live up to it.
my question was rhetorical in nature. It isn't a matter of choosing between one thing and another. It also isn't a matter of "not selling the LS short".
If the LS came with 500 hp we would all be whooping it up and saying how great it is. But if the next year some other manufacturer uped the ante to 520 hp, all of a sudden we would be stating that the car needed more power. Just pointing out the obvious groupthink. No matter how much power the car has (any car doesn't matter), if some other car in the same class gets more next year, we feel deprived and cheated. Not making excuses for the LS, just stating some observations.
that's human nature, and especially the nature of car nuts. And who could have forseen todays HP race 20 years ago? One of the car mags' columnists, I forget who, recently wrote something like, "forget the good old days, when it comes to affordable cars that perform, THESE are the good old days." Good, healthy competition, and I'm confident Lincoln will step up to the plate.
And, to clarify my last post, I'm much more than "satisfied" with the substantially greater than "adequate" performance of the current V8. And the only way my Goat could get 27 mpg on the highway is if it were idling in neutral while being towed.
Thanks for the info on Calibration. I didnt get it but now I do. Since I did get the 01-05-05 reflash I wont insist on the 01-14-05 reflash The first one did improve several things. like the seeming misfire at a steady 60mph. Sorry to hear about the slow 3-2 downshift and the fact it is a known problem that you guys are working on. Would that be a fix covered under the warranty if and when you solve it? Probly something you can't answer. but thanks for your help Kevin
Lincoln does have a long way to go to compete on a global basis with cars and car companies that have been doing the luxury sports market longer and better than Lincoln has been doing.
I think that the pressure the enthusiast market is bringing to bear on Lincoln (us) is helping them to raise the bar higher than they may have originally planned to do.
2002 is a transition year for the LS. No changes basically. Do I wish the 2003 were coming on line in 2002? You bet. Lincoln is currently a year off the market and are scampering to catch up. They aren't used to the volatility in this segment, but they are learning quickly.
Quality was a giant bugaboo with the car. No doubt about it. Good news is that they are going over cars with a fine tooth comb on the assembly line. The level of expectation nowadays is for cars to be close to perfect, probably because of the standard that has been set. I expect nothing less from Lincoln. They must keep up or surpass the other makes to be able to remain competitive.
Though having taken a tour of the assembly line I can't figure out how cars have as few problems as they do considering the enormous complexity of putting the suckers together
I believe we need to keep the pressure on Lincoln to keep getting better faster. My hope is that they are able to accomplish their goal. There certainly are enough dedicated people wanting to do it. If I had to bet on it, I'm not entirely sure how confident I could do that just based on the industrial behemoth that has to get motivated to play along, especially the bean counters and statisticians that only care about numbers and not soul.
I have to stand up in front of all of you and admit, "Yes, I am a gearhead". Having said that, I also have to say that a large portion of my driving is back and forth to work. The question then arises, how fast do I really want or need to get to work ?? Secondly, would I be willing to go into SUV gas usage territory just to say that I have 300, 400. or 500 HP under the hood ?? As I've said in previous posts, the LS is my wife's primary car, however I do drive it quite a bit. My primary vehicle is a Z-28 Camaro. I'm truly amazed at how the LS, as a 4 door sedan, compares performance-wise to the Camaro, what is highly regarded as a "factory hot rod". Yes, the Camaro accelerates more quickly, as I believe it to be due to the greater torque of an engine that's 100 cu.in. larger. Once in motion, however, the LS seems to be similarily quick in passing types of maneuvers. Beyond any shadow of doubt, the LS rides 1000% better than my Camaro, even after I installed a $400 set of Bilstein shocks on the Camaro, which helped the ride considerably. The LS corners almost as well as the Camaro, even though it's a non-sport model. What I'm getting at, is everything we buy, whether it's a car, washing machine, or TV, has some sort of compromise involved. Along with that, most of us, as individuals, change our perceptions as time goes by. In 1971, my SS454 Chevelle was really something, although I doubt that I would be in love with that car today. As others have mentioned, the bar has been raised, and in some way, shape or form, most manufacturers have responded. I agree wholeheartedly with those who don't want to see the LS wither and die. We've made a large investment in a car we like, and want our next one to be "Even Better". Hopefully, LM will not disappoint us and leave us with a lackluster car, or worse yet, an "orphan car". Do we really need more HP ?? Probably not, but on the other hand, why not !!?? Like they said in the early days, "If some is good, and more is better, that too much is just enough !!" Happy motoring !!
I bought my 2000 LS sport because it 1) fit my budget, 2) has 32valve V8, 3) Is rear wheel drive, 4) Its suspension was inspired by CART and F1, 5) has a gorgeous exterior and interior.
I was definitely disappointed with acceleration figures when they were published. I don't have to out gun 540's or GS430's, but I would definitely like mid 6 second 0-60 a mid to low 14second quarter mile. With the resources the Ford has I wouldn't think this would be impossible.
In terms of day to day driving, the power is more then adequate. But occasionally, I would like to break loose the rear wheels like was able to do with my ’87 5.0 mustang. The car seems sluggish in the 20-40 mph acceleration range, then seems to pick up. At highway speeds (65+), it’s explosive.
When I say "adequate" the phrase "exceeds my expectations" defines my thought process. I also have a bad habit of understating things. When my lease is up early '03 I will probably not get another LS mainly because I am not happy with the value (overall value not just resale or price value) of the one I currently drive. (Nomex ON) I am not saying that I dislike the car. I really enjoy driving it and truly appreciate all the positives. Just not enough to pony up for another one.
More power is not necessarily the deal maker for me. I am more pleased with the build quality, performance, and value of my wife's '01 Mercedes C240 that cost $6,000 less than my '00 LS and it has 100hp less than the Lincoln! Not to mention the fact that the MB resale has dropped less than 10% since new. In the same time period (just under a year) my LS resale dropped 25% and is falling like a stone. I expect to see my LS at or below the residual price a full year ahead of lease end (36 mo term).
I guess some folks on this board care, but I, for one, am not concerned for the next few model years. I own my LS8 outright, and do not intend to part with it for a few years yet. I've always purchased my cars, and keep them 6 years on average. Currently, I see no reason to depart from my past record, as I truly love my LS! This was the right car for me that came along at the right time. I WILL try to improve the performance of this car through bolt-ons (Borla, MAF, air box, wheels/tires) but, barring any wrecks or other major trouble, I'm quite satisfied. I may salivate and get jealous when the MY03 hits the streets, but, I'll wait. It takes a really special new car to make me part with my current ride. My last two primary rides ('90 Nissan 300ZX and '00 LS8 Sport) happened to garner the Motor Trend Car of the Year award (earned AFTER I made my purchase). It's funny, when this "special vehicle" hits the Auto show circuit, I get hit with this bolt of lightning and its love at first sight. The effect still hasn't worn off as far the LS is concerned.
I've put the magazine online so you can brag to your less fortunate car club buddies about it!
The order form for wearabLS is also online as part of the magazine so you won't have to cut up your copy of the magazine if you want to order stuff.
giowa: Thanks for your comments on the mag. from a previous post. Didn't get a chance to say that yet. Also, yes the membership number, if you disregard the 10100 in the front signifies the number of where you came in to the club. The lower the number the earlier you joined.
I think your mid 6 second 0 - 60 and mid 14 second quarter miles times are reasonable expectations in the not-to-distant future. It is going to take more than VVT to do it, though. I would like to see a displacement increase. A supercharger on the current engine should also do the trick. The current set-up is a little weak under 3500 RPM.
Frhill, I assume you have the 3.31 gear. I have the 3.58 and my analysis of the acceleration is a little different than yours. Mine is a bit of a dog off the line but 20 - 40 is like a rocket. Since the tranny reflash, I get a tire chirp on the 1-2 shift but the ratio is so close to 1st, I have to shift again around 55. Then it seems a little weak until 65 or so.
Funny how "feel" and "memories" and "reality" sometimes conflict. When I had a T-Bird SC in 1990, it was the quickest thing in it's class. My memory of it is that it was a rocket in every speed range. 315 lbs/ft of torque felt really good! The acceleration numbers, though, were very similar to a current LS V8.
Called the dealer about the window crash... "bring it in... you wont need a loaner it will only take an hour or 2 to fix it." Well today after sitting in the dealership for 2.5 hours I'm called to the cashier.... car's ready Get to the cashier and..."oh sir that part is backordered.. we'll call you when it comes in." Go to see the service writer and ask him if there is someway they can get the window closed and lock it in place.." no way.. the regulators broken" Well I say how do I keep the rain out? " a plastic bag and duct tape works pretty well" he says How long before the part comes in? " don't know could be weeks" he says needless to say after the second window crash and no end in site. Not to mention the score of other problems. I wish I had just bought a cheap used honda accord...and invested my money in technology stocks... the return would have been much higher... By the way the lot was full of used ( I counted 8) 2000 v8's mostly loaded...for less than 28K list
Kevin Charter member of the Licoln LS owners Club. At least the Magazine and hat were great. good work Brian
In the LS V6 - BMW 525i article, page 24, tale of the tape:
It lists a manual transmission for the LS but a 3.58 rear axle. I believe the manual comes with a 3.07 and the automatic has the 3.58. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
Anybody try a set of Bilstein shocks? John Colletti (Mr. SVT) put Bilsteins on the latest Lightning pickups. He found that they increased the ride quality but did not give up anything in handling. Just curious what effect they would have on the LS. (and I don't need the 24-position adjustable racing shocks).
You are correct. The V6 Manual has a 3:07. The V6 Auto is 3:58. The Manual NEEDS the 3:58, but without an overdrive fifth, you'd be pushing 3500 rpm at 75 mph (estimated).
Klarson - get rid of that dealer! He has little imagination or is lazy. Go up to pictures on the LLSOC web site. I took the window pics and I drove around for two months with my windows "locked up". Pull off the door panel (see instructions in the speaker replacement how-to's). You will see that the window glass is attached to a black trolley with a plastic "plug". Either your plastic plug popped out or more likely the cable is all messed up (the explosion in the speghetti factory syndrome). You can always silicone seal the plastic plug in but if the cable is loose, just ignore it and head for the black plastic trolley that rides with the window up and down the galvanized metal "rail" or "track". Ignore the cable and push the window with trolley up until the glass is all the way up (window closed). The goal here is to do something so the trolley can't slide down the rail/track. My solution was to drill a small hole in the edge of the rail and stick a cotter pin through the hole, thus preventing the trolley/window from falling down the rail. Easy. If you don't have a cotter pin, use a sheet metal screw. Just "jam it up". The dealer is going to trash the whole assembly anyway. The window debacle is supposed to be long over. The parts should be in stock. My only guess is that the dealers don't see the problem anymore.
When I worked on cars for a living, we would just wedge a piece of wood under the glass (to the bottom of the door). If/when my windows do that, I will rig mine up before I get stuck in a rent-a-Focus - even waiting on parts for a day.
When my right rear window took the dive we all knew it would (months ago), I was able to use the control to crutch it back into the fully closed position. My plan was to gather all the things I need looked after at once, then do my "dealer visit." In the meantime, I just didn't use the RR window.
The fly in the ointment was that I didn't inform my wife that my (moderately) high-dollar "sport sedan" didn't really work completely, so when I was on a trip to Europe a couple of weeks ago, she assumed that all the windows worked (silly person).
Net result was that the RR window was down, and wasn't coming/staying up for anything. Here's where the 2" box tape comes in. Placed carefully, a couple of 12 - 18" long strips of tape on the outside of the window will hold it up in the AZ heat. Looks like s&%#, but perhaps that's appropriate. It does work, as does most of the rest of the car, and I don't have to pull the door panel to Mickey-Mouse an internal fix.
If the Duratech 3.0 and 3.9 V8 were both brand new engines I wouldn't be so hard on Ford. However, since there are VVT head versions of both in the Ford Corporate parts bin (Jag) I won't cut the Lincoln product planners any slack here. They screwed up with their marketing plan to try to get most LS customers to buy V8's. If the V6 had 240 HP like the S-type I most likely would have got the V6. The strategy looks sucessful since 80% of LS's sold are V8's. However, this short sighted strategy ignores how much better the car rag. reviews of the LS would have been if it had higher HP and better 0-60 times out of the gate and also leaves us to speculate how much better LS sales could have been given higher HP and better reviews.
thanks for all the suggestions. Being mechanically challenged. I have taped the window up using duct tape 3 times now. 18 inch strips across the top as suggested. The problem is when sitting in the sun at work it gets so hot that the adhesive lets go. I havent tried the box tape yet which might be a little stronger. I'll give that a try. and you are right it really looks like crap. I tried taking the door panel off once before but I dont have the tools required to get at the little screws under the plastic tab inside the door handle. As for the dealer I know I need to scrap him for sure, its just I bought the car there and a good dealer is not in the area unless I travel to Dulaney vally thanks
oh one last thing Stanny... from what I understand the part is a nationwide back order. meaning they can't get the parts fast enough. My quess the problem is accellerating faster than the V8 Auto with a supercharger. Kevin
Good luck at finding them for the LS. When I checked a couple of months ago, the answer was "Don't have them, don't know when or if we're going to make them".
Think your note helps prove my point. You love your LS. But I noted the lengthy list of acceleration-related improvements you plan to make--Borla, MAF, and airbox. How much will you end up spending (time and money) making your improvements? Obviously the car isn't living up to its acceleration potential in stock form (i.e., logically its acceleration can't be adequate as you feel compelled to expend a lot of effort to improve it).
thomas_1 (#4029): Completely concur with your post. The LS8 Sport is fast fading in overall value. Fallen far behind in acceleration and safety equipment. Reliability isn't up to Lexus or Infiniti standards. Resale nothin' to write home about.
Here's a small list of things Lincoln should be doing as '02 improvements that wouldn't break the bank. Use 3.58 final drive with lower numerical 5th overdrive in both LS6 manual and LS8. Use non-intrusive trunk hinges to improve trunk useability. Add standard full head curtain airbags (running from A to C pillars) and rear seatbelt pretensioners. Optional brake assist & EBP. Make single in-dash CD with at least 6 speakers standard. Is this too much to ask for an '02 that might sticker in the $32-40K range? (And maybe also optional... adjustable driver's pedals? reverse warning sensor? Xenon headlamps? real dash wood?)
Here's a question for you avid LS fans. Since Ford and the people at Jaguar don't want the real Jag. engines in the LS or other Ford cars, I'm wondering if LS buyers would have been happy with this solution. What if the LS came with VVT head engines almost like the Jag engines but they were lower compression so they had a bit less HP & torque than the Jag? I'd guess that at 9.5:1 on 87 octane the 3.0 would have 230 HP and the V8 275 HP. I'd also guess that the gas mileage would be similar to current LS engines and the VVT engines would add about $250 to the MSRP. It's kind of late now but just imagine if that's how the LS came in June 1999.
I wouldn't be happy with your solution. :-) The Jag isn't quick enough, either. 0-60 takes about 7.0 with VVT and the 3.31 gear. The LS needs to do better than that.
The best solution for me would be to forget about this "We can't have a Lincoln faster than a Jag" mentality and bump them both to about 4.3 liters, add VVT to the LS, and continue development in induction, exhaust, and driveline areas for both. My guess is that Jag buyers would still buy Jags. I doubt if many are running out buying Town Cars because it has a 4.6.
I haven't owned a car yet that I didn't think could be made better/faster! The cost of a Borla Cat back sys and MAF sensor should cost less than $1K and provide a more visceral sound as well as performance. I don't think, nor have I stated that Lincoln should stand still . . . they must continue to improve the car. Either way, I don't expect to be back in the market until at least the MY05, so how Lincoln actually improves the LS in the mean time is rather inconsequential to me.
I would, however, find it gratifying if Lincoln continued to keep the LS in limelight by staying a step ahead of the competition, but they're not running as fast a product development cycle as their competitors. Some things change slowly. Hopefully F/L/M can step up to the plate on at least a few models in the near future. We'll soon see, as I'm sure we'll be treated to the same sort of information Brain was sworn not to divulge once LLSOC members get to Wixom. While Lincoln may not make several "small" changes each year, I think F/L/M is prepared to make "big" changes that ultimately leap frog their competitors once they get around to it. Only time will tell.
In the same comparo the weight distrubition for the LS said 52/48. Isn't that the V8? Also, isn't the manual lighter than the auto so the w/d would be VERY close to 50/50? Other than that.....FANTASTIC job, Brian and Ray (you too Debbie!). This is a very professional publication! I can't wait for the next issue! Loved the "Follow the leader" pic I, too, find it hard to drive and stare at the car at the same time! Keep up the good work Brian and take a few days off! I'm sure your dear wife has some honey do's for you!
IMHO I don't think many (if any) of us here are looking at other manufacturer's car and saying we need more horse power because they have more HP.
I now drive an A6-2.7T manual. I find that if anything, its acceleration is mild over-kill. So I'm not looking for more HP in my commuter car. Frankly, a non-heroic mid 6 seconds 0-60 would be just fine for me. Close to 8 seconds is intolerable for the aggressive commuter traffic that I have to deal with.
The V8 has been hobbled for some time (years) now by the tranny. With the present flash load, it supposedly does 0-60 in 7.2 seconds. But a taller 1st gear (4.40) would give 6.5 second times (and better launch "feel") without affecting gas mileage. But the tranny probably doesn't have the real estate for a taller gear and "1st" is really 1st and 4th(?) so it would effect gas mileage....
For the V6, the weight of the car really requires a 3.2L engine (with VVT). Barring that, then a super-/turbo-charger is needed, which is starting to look very unlikely given the years that are going by without it.
With the new competition coming on line, the LS is going to see sales fall which makes upgrades even more difficult. Just consider the youngish former "pony" owners looking for a 4-door family sedan. Hmmm, a Maxima with 260HP or the I35 or ..., doesn't look good for the LS.
It's sad, because it has race car handling but the anemic performance makes it a no option car given its supposed market segment. Also, its "harsh" ride and "cramped" interior doesn't fit the standard Lincoln market so little help from the traditional buyer. Which means the LS could very easily be killed off by marketing.
The top of my light grey dash looks blotchy with different gloss in spots. The LS is only two months old and I have not used any cleaners or treatment liquids yet because I do not want a shine. Has any one else noticed this on their dash? Is there a good cleaner or protectorant liguid that will give a uniform look without a shine?
Forget about changes being made to the 2002 models. You are wasting your breath. The car has been put to bed since December of last year. Fact of life. Changes are occuring for the 2003 model based on feedback that has been provided.
slunar: I suspect the only way Lincoln was able to justify the LS was to use the engines that were available with the Jag with less-exotic components. I also agree with lolaj42. I would modify any car I owned no matter what it was, just because that's the way I am. There are quite a few people that feel the same way. Ergo, the market for Hennessy Vipers, Saleen Mustangs, etc.
I'm also slightly more old-fashioned. All things being equal, I'd rather have a good old American V-8 with a lot of torque and horsepower instead of all this high-tech VVT, supercharger stuff that's just dying to break the first time you get out of the big city and are stuck in Watumwah, Iowa, or where Radar was from.
Don't know why Lincoln had to play second-fiddle to Jag. In my opinion the LS is much better in the enthusiast arena, while the Jag is better in the stiff upper lip field. Jag has the upper hand in the fit-and-finish area but since it cost about 10 grand more I would expect it too. Granted considering the price of the LS the quality should have been better, but I'm still pretty enthusiastic about the value and fun quotient of my car.
Comments
Not attempting to start fights, since I'm one of the ones who has always believed in the Tim Taylor philosophy of more power, but it is an interesting paradigm, especially since we seem to be in the middle of a horsepower war.
Brian
It's about the torque. Give me torque anyday!
Having rationalized my need for speed, I would still want more even if I didn't need it. When I get a new car, I expect most aspects to be an improvement over my previous vehicle. Performance is a key aspect for me. Also, I expect any car I own to accelerate competitively with others in it's intended market.
For me the issue is one of "relative power". Of course, I'm talking useful power that actually does translate into meaningful and obvious performance statistics which I can generate. My '00 LS8 Sport with a bit over 250 hp had an MSRP of $39,000. The new '02 Altima with 240 hp engine and 0-60 5-speed manual time of around 6.3 secs might sell for around $25,000. How is my relative power doing? Not good any more! The '00 Altima (or Maxima) was way shorter on power. Now the one is comparable and the latter will have 260 hp.
Has BMW sat still with their 3 Series? And they are always tinkering with their fine 5 and 7 Series engines. If not more HP, then more useable torque down low. Or Cadillac going to regular 87 octane with 300 HP Northstar.
With the impending demise of Continental, LS needs to pick up the power fast. What we have had wasn't top notch to begin with and is falling further and further behind. And I don't want to wait till MY 04 or 05. By then, I may have a loaded Altima, 330i, etc. I'll have as much if not more performance, safety equipment, luxury, etc. and save dough. Don't need to be a rocket scientist to see why vicious capitalistic competion is great for buyers. Sellers beware! Improve or Die!!!
Right, Brian?? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)
P.S. The 2002 airbox modification that is made at the factory is very similar to the cobbled-up airbox mods that we have been doing. It adds an extra air intake horn into the snorkel to accept air from the gap right by the driver's side headlight.
Brian
My V8 LS is no race car, but it is beyond adequate for most driving situations I get myself into. I agree and sorta disagree with giowa. I agree that the LS should be competitive within its class. Now if I just beat an Altima by a nose in the 1/4 mile - er I mean freeway on-ramp, I am not too upset. That Altima is not a good comparison. Likewise, you could feel bad about an Integra GS-R - a 4 cyl that will easily stay up with an LS. It's just a different class of car.
I like the power my Dad's '98 STS has. It is just short of being too much (for a 4 door sedan). My guess is that the mid-size sedans will probably top out at just over 300. Any more than that and too many will be wrapped around errant trees and all our insurance will be even higher. Or the owners will be bitching about how fast their tires and brakes wear out and quit buying them.
another rear window crash. SInce this window crashed last year I think I've had it up and down 3 times at the most.
today with the heat index at 105 I decided to open the windows for a quick cooldown.
With a clunk and a snap the window crashes down and stays down. same window as before
passenger side rear. so much for reliability... you go consumers report... tell it like it is.
Now for the transmission. according to Mark the 01-05-05 is the same as -01-14-05.
Bad news for me. I had the first one done and have repeated problems with the auto trans trying to find which gear to go to... sometimes it just hesitates and you kinda float for awhile and then it snaps into a gear.
In addition if you manually downshift when slowing. everytime you go from 3 to 2 the car again seems to hesitate while floating out of gear and then kicks into 2..I was hoping the new tsb would help ...guess not...
question for Mark... what do you mean the software is the same but that several calibrations were added.... what does that mean
Thanks for the info.
Still a great car but it's spent way too much time at the dealer for repairs...I quess I just got a lemon compared to the rest of you guys..
Kevin
2000 v8 17k miles cordovan
There, I've said it.
While, for me handling is a huge factor (3 out of my last 4 cars had their batteries in the trunk), it's nice to be able to launch a vehicle with a standard transmission without: 1) killing it, or 2) being passed by a car costing 10K less.
Having returned recently from Europe, where standard transmissions are, in fact, standard, I've got a whole new perspective. Manufacturers "over there" actually build cars with excellent fit & finish that have 5- or 6-speed manual transmissions that handle very well. Here's the rub. Is a quattro setup the equal of RWD?
Either way, if I want more than 225 hp and a stick shift, I'll be going European. Much of my "issue" with BMW is the yuppie scum "buy it for the image rather than what it can do" factor, but Audi and others don't appear to be (at least to me) saddled with that.
Remember Ray from the southeast, who posted so much in the early days on this LS board? He's shown up in the Audi A6 board.
Go figure.
Anyway the Calibration is not an enhancement. So when mark was referring to a calibration, he meant a group of cars with a particular calibration were left out and thus could not take the new software.
Regards,
Airwolf
If I had time, I could build on for the LS - sort of a poor man's Nos system.
The delay on a manual 3-2 is the way it is. Software can't fix that. We are working on hardware changes to help that shift.
Delays on other shifts are another problem. I recommend checking the transmission fluid level. Low level will cause delays.
Mark
Tom
Truthfully, this car has all the power I need. If I pass a semi from 60 mph and leave plenty of room, the car is doing 100 by the time I'm back in my lane. With, say, 50 hp more, would I be doing 110? 120? Would it matter? Are there times now when I don't feel it's safe to pass, but would with that extra power? Very doubtful.
Having said all that, would I like more power? Yes, please.
As for me, I really don't care what the HP and torque #'s are. I don't even car what the 0-60 #'s are as I rarely do a flat out 0-60 timed run (:-. I also don't want a car with a 300 or greater HP rating as many insurance companies will jack up the policy prices for those high HP cars. What matters to me it the grunt that the car has in rolling acceleration. In the case of my LS-8 the acceleration in the 60 - 80 range is great, I'm very satisfied. In the case of 10 - 40, 20 - 50 or anyting similar it just doesn't feel that it has the omph that it should. Could be the torque converter, could be the trannie ratios or could be the engine's torque curve? In these situations the LS-8 feels slower than other lower rated HP cars. The lack of performance is reflected by the somewhat anemic 0-60 #'s for the LS, especially with the 3.31 rear end. To close, your question (Brian) almost seems to pose "which would you rather have, good handling or fast acceleration". My reply is, why can't we have both?
The real loser here is the V6 (manual). It appears the only hope for the V6 is a supercharger but that doesn't seem likey, so it will fade away.
Why don't we settle for "adequate handling"? "Adequate braking"? "Adequate steering"? "Adequate safety"? Do we really need more than "adequate" in any of these other areas? If not, then why choose the LS? If all we want is pure "adequateness" (is there such a word?), then shouldn't we all be driving either a Buick LeSabre or Ford Crown Vic?
I'm willing to bet that the nearly uniform press consensus on the new '02 Altima SE 3.5L 240 hp manual tranny will be that she is more than adequate in key areas like acceleration, handling, steering, braking, safety equipment, etc. Not to mention value! Sure, as a FWDer she won't achieve pantheonic handling status (at least not with us RWD afficionados), but here fully independent sport suspension will ensure she is more than adequate in the handling department. And she'll likely will generate some good numbers. (I use the Altima for comparative purposes only. If a financially weak and attempting-to-recover-in-the-marketplace Nissan can seriously upgrade this lowly platform, what is Lincoln's excuse with the LS? Blew all their money on stock buyback? Firestone/Explorer fiasco? Warranty payments? SUV & truck development?)
I think one reason so many are willing to sell the LS short (i.e., expect less than she should be capable of) and defend its inadequacies in the area of acceleration is cognitive dissonance. We bought one. We paid a lot. We don't want to acknowledge its shortcomings. And since she shines in other critical areas like handling, steering, braking, etc. we are willing to pooh-pooh the one critical area she is falling behind in. But I say damn the groupthink, advocate to make the LS better today, tomorrow, and in the future!!!
Maybe it's the Arizona water.
Anyway, the Manual LS team has a challenge to make the car "world-class". It's their term - now they have to live up to it.
If the LS came with 500 hp we would all be whooping it up and saying how great it is. But if the next year some other manufacturer uped the ante to 520 hp, all of a sudden we would be stating that the car needed more power. Just pointing out the obvious groupthink. No matter how much power the car has (any car doesn't matter), if some other car in the same class gets more next year, we feel deprived and cheated. Not making excuses for the LS, just stating some observations.
And, to clarify my last post, I'm much more than "satisfied" with the substantially greater than "adequate" performance of the current V8. And the only way my Goat could get 27 mpg on the highway is if it were idling in neutral while being towed.
These are great times to be a car nut.:)
Since I did get the 01-05-05 reflash I wont insist on the 01-14-05 reflash
The first one did improve several things. like the seeming misfire at a steady 60mph.
Sorry to hear about the slow 3-2 downshift and the fact it is a known problem that you guys are working on.
Would that be a fix covered under the warranty if and when you solve it?
Probly something you can't answer.
but thanks for your help
Kevin
I think that the pressure the enthusiast market is bringing to bear on Lincoln (us) is helping them to raise the bar higher than they may have originally planned to do.
2002 is a transition year for the LS. No changes basically. Do I wish the 2003 were coming on line in 2002? You bet. Lincoln is currently a year off the market and are scampering to catch up. They aren't used to the volatility in this segment, but they are learning quickly.
Quality was a giant bugaboo with the car. No doubt about it. Good news is that they are going over cars with a fine tooth comb on the assembly line. The level of expectation nowadays is for cars to be close to perfect, probably because of the standard that has been set. I expect nothing less from Lincoln. They must keep up or surpass the other makes to be able to remain competitive.
Though having taken a tour of the assembly line I can't figure out how cars have as few problems as they do considering the enormous complexity of putting the suckers together
I believe we need to keep the pressure on Lincoln to keep getting better faster. My hope is that they are able to accomplish their goal. There certainly are enough dedicated people wanting to do it. If I had to bet on it, I'm not entirely sure how confident I could do that just based on the industrial behemoth that has to get motivated to play along, especially the bean counters and statisticians that only care about numbers and not soul.
The question then arises, how fast do I really want or need to get to work ?? Secondly, would I be willing to go into SUV gas usage territory just to say that I have 300, 400. or 500 HP under the hood ??
As I've said in previous posts, the LS is my wife's primary car, however I do drive it quite a bit. My primary vehicle is a Z-28 Camaro. I'm truly amazed at how the LS, as a 4 door sedan, compares performance-wise to the Camaro, what is highly regarded as a "factory hot rod". Yes, the Camaro accelerates more quickly, as I believe it to be due to the greater torque of an engine that's 100 cu.in. larger. Once in motion, however, the LS seems to be similarily quick in passing types of maneuvers. Beyond any shadow of doubt, the LS rides 1000% better than my Camaro, even after I installed a $400 set of Bilstein shocks on the Camaro, which helped the ride considerably. The LS corners almost as well as the Camaro, even though it's a non-sport model.
What I'm getting at, is everything we buy, whether it's a car, washing machine, or TV, has some sort of compromise involved. Along with that, most of us, as individuals, change our perceptions as time goes by. In 1971, my SS454 Chevelle was really something, although I doubt that I would be in love with that car today. As others have mentioned, the bar has been raised, and in some way, shape or form, most manufacturers have responded.
I agree wholeheartedly with those who don't want to see the LS wither and die. We've made a large investment in a car we like, and want our next one to be "Even Better". Hopefully, LM will not disappoint us and leave us with a lackluster car, or worse yet, an "orphan car".
Do we really need more HP ?? Probably not, but on the other hand, why not !!?? Like they said in the early days, "If some is good, and more is better, that too much is just enough !!"
Happy motoring !!
I was definitely disappointed with acceleration figures when they were published. I don't have to out gun 540's or GS430's, but I would definitely like mid 6 second 0-60 a mid to low 14second quarter mile. With the resources the Ford has I wouldn't think this would be impossible.
In terms of day to day driving, the power is more then adequate. But occasionally, I would like to break loose the rear wheels like was able to do with my ’87 5.0 mustang. The car seems sluggish in the 20-40 mph acceleration range, then seems to pick up. At highway speeds (65+), it’s explosive.
More power is not necessarily the deal maker for me. I am more pleased with the build quality, performance, and value of my wife's '01 Mercedes C240 that cost $6,000 less than my '00 LS and it has 100hp less than the Lincoln! Not to mention the fact that the MB resale has dropped less than 10% since new. In the same time period (just under a year) my LS resale dropped 25% and is falling like a stone. I expect to see my LS at or below the residual price a full year ahead of lease end (36 mo term).
The order form for wearabLS is also online as part of the magazine so you won't have to cut up your copy of the magazine if you want to order stuff.
giowa: Thanks for your comments on the mag. from a previous post. Didn't get a chance to say that yet. Also, yes the membership number, if you disregard the 10100 in the front signifies the number of where you came in to the club. The lower the number the earlier you joined.
Brian
Frhill, I assume you have the 3.31 gear. I have the 3.58 and my analysis of the acceleration is a little different than yours. Mine is a bit of a dog off the line but 20 - 40 is like a rocket. Since the tranny reflash, I get a tire chirp on the 1-2 shift but the ratio is so close to 1st, I have to shift again around 55. Then it seems a little weak until 65 or so.
Funny how "feel" and "memories" and "reality" sometimes conflict. When I had a T-Bird SC in 1990, it was the quickest thing in it's class. My memory of it is that it was a rocket in every speed range. 315 lbs/ft of torque felt really good! The acceleration numbers, though, were very similar to a current LS V8.
Well today after sitting in the dealership for 2.5 hours I'm called to the cashier.... car's ready
Get to the cashier and..."oh sir that part is backordered.. we'll call you when it comes in."
Go to see the service writer and ask him if there is someway they can get the window closed and lock it in place.." no way.. the regulators broken"
Well I say how do I keep the rain out? " a plastic bag and duct tape works pretty well" he says
How long before the part comes in? " don't know could be weeks" he says
needless to say after the second window crash and no end in site. Not to mention the score of other problems. I wish I had just bought a cheap used honda accord...and invested my money in technology stocks... the return would have been much higher...
By the way the lot was full of used ( I counted 8) 2000 v8's mostly loaded...for less than 28K list
Kevin
Charter member of the Licoln LS owners Club. At least the Magazine and hat were great. good work Brian
It lists a manual transmission for the LS but a 3.58 rear axle. I believe the manual comes with a 3.07 and the automatic has the 3.58. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
You will see that the window glass is attached to a black trolley with a plastic "plug". Either your plastic plug popped out or more likely the cable is all messed up (the explosion in the speghetti factory syndrome). You can always silicone seal the plastic plug in but if the cable is loose, just ignore it and head for the black plastic trolley that rides with the window up and down the galvanized metal "rail" or "track". Ignore the cable and push the window with trolley up until the glass is all the way up (window closed). The goal here is to do something so the trolley can't slide down the rail/track. My solution was to drill a small hole in the edge of the rail and stick a cotter pin through the hole, thus preventing the trolley/window from falling down the rail. Easy. If you don't have a cotter pin, use a sheet metal screw. Just "jam it up". The dealer is going to trash the whole assembly anyway. The window debacle is supposed to be long over. The parts should be in stock.
My only guess is that the dealers don't see the problem anymore.
I agree with stanny - can that loser of a dealer!
The fly in the ointment was that I didn't inform my wife that my (moderately) high-dollar "sport sedan" didn't really work completely, so when I was on a trip to Europe a couple of weeks ago, she assumed that all the windows worked (silly person).
Net result was that the RR window was down, and wasn't coming/staying up for anything. Here's where the 2" box tape comes in. Placed carefully, a couple of 12 - 18" long strips of tape on the outside of the window will hold it up in the AZ heat. Looks like s&%#, but perhaps that's appropriate. It does work, as does most of the rest of the car, and I don't have to pull the door panel to Mickey-Mouse an internal fix.
Being mechanically challenged. I have taped the window up using duct tape 3 times now.
18 inch strips across the top as suggested.
The problem is when sitting in the sun at work it gets so hot that the adhesive lets go.
I havent tried the box tape yet which might be a little stronger. I'll give that a try.
and you are right it really looks like crap.
I tried taking the door panel off once before but I dont have the tools required to get at the little screws under the plastic tab inside the door handle.
As for the dealer I know I need to scrap him for sure, its just I bought the car there and a good dealer is not in the area unless I travel to Dulaney vally
thanks
oh one last thing Stanny... from what I understand the part is a nationwide back order.
meaning they can't get the parts fast enough. My quess the problem is accellerating faster than the V8 Auto with a supercharger.
Kevin
thomas_1 (#4029): Completely concur with your post. The LS8 Sport is fast fading in overall value. Fallen far behind in acceleration and safety equipment. Reliability isn't up to Lexus or Infiniti standards. Resale nothin' to write home about.
Here's a small list of things Lincoln should be doing as '02 improvements that wouldn't break the bank. Use 3.58 final drive with lower numerical 5th overdrive in both LS6 manual and LS8. Use non-intrusive trunk hinges to improve trunk useability. Add standard full head curtain airbags (running from A to C pillars) and rear seatbelt pretensioners. Optional brake assist & EBP. Make single in-dash CD with at least 6 speakers standard. Is this too much to ask for an '02 that might sticker in the $32-40K range? (And maybe also optional... adjustable driver's pedals? reverse warning sensor? Xenon headlamps? real dash wood?)
The best solution for me would be to forget about this "We can't have a Lincoln faster than a Jag" mentality and bump them both to about 4.3 liters, add VVT to the LS, and continue development in induction, exhaust, and driveline areas for both. My guess is that Jag buyers would still buy Jags. I doubt if many are running out buying Town Cars because it has a 4.6.
I would, however, find it gratifying if Lincoln continued to keep the LS in limelight by staying a step ahead of the competition, but they're not running as fast a product development cycle as their competitors. Some things change slowly. Hopefully F/L/M can step up to the plate on at least a few models in the near future. We'll soon see, as I'm sure we'll be treated to the same sort of information Brain was sworn not to divulge once LLSOC members get to Wixom. While Lincoln may not make several "small" changes each year, I think F/L/M is prepared to make "big" changes that ultimately leap frog their competitors once they get around to it. Only time will tell.
manufacturer's car and saying we need more horse power because
they have more HP.
I now drive an A6-2.7T manual. I find that if anything, its acceleration
is mild over-kill. So I'm not looking for more HP in my commuter car.
Frankly, a non-heroic mid 6 seconds 0-60 would be just fine for me.
Close to 8 seconds is intolerable for the aggressive commuter traffic
that I have to deal with.
The V8 has been hobbled for some time (years) now by the tranny.
With the present flash load, it supposedly does 0-60 in 7.2 seconds.
But a taller 1st gear (4.40) would give 6.5 second times (and better
launch "feel") without affecting gas mileage. But the tranny probably
doesn't have the real estate for a taller gear and "1st" is really 1st and
4th(?) so it would effect gas mileage....
For the V6, the weight of the car really requires a 3.2L engine (with VVT).
Barring that, then a super-/turbo-charger is needed, which is starting to
look very unlikely given the years that are going by without it.
With the new competition coming on line, the LS is going to see sales
fall which makes upgrades even more difficult. Just consider the youngish
former "pony" owners looking for a 4-door family sedan. Hmmm, a Maxima
with 260HP or the I35 or ..., doesn't look good for the LS.
It's sad, because it has race car handling but the anemic performance makes
it a no option car given its supposed market segment. Also, its "harsh" ride
and "cramped" interior doesn't fit the standard Lincoln market so little help
from the traditional buyer. Which means the LS could very easily be killed off
by marketing.
Sad....
slunar: I suspect the only way Lincoln was able to justify the LS was to use the engines that were available with the Jag with less-exotic components. I also agree with lolaj42. I would modify any car I owned no matter what it was, just because that's the way I am. There are quite a few people that feel the same way. Ergo, the market for Hennessy Vipers, Saleen Mustangs, etc.
I'm also slightly more old-fashioned. All things being equal, I'd rather have a good old American V-8 with a lot of torque and horsepower instead of all this high-tech VVT, supercharger stuff that's just dying to break the first time you get out of the big city and are stuck in Watumwah, Iowa, or where Radar was from.
Don't know why Lincoln had to play second-fiddle to Jag. In my opinion the LS is much better in the enthusiast arena, while the Jag is better in the stiff upper lip field. Jag has the upper hand in the fit-and-finish area but since it cost about 10 grand more I would expect it too. Granted considering the price of the LS the quality should have been better, but I'm still pretty enthusiastic about the value and fun quotient of my car.