... the amortization over time will come from spinning any I-4s and I-5s, not to mention other sizes of I-6, off the original 4.2L I-6. Not unlike how Ford has been amortizing the Taurus and Contour-used Duratec V-6 in LS and S-type? Or again in the Jag X-type? Hasn't Ford been smart spinning off its V-6 everywhere? But, of course, they aren't doing that for any cost conscious reason, are they?
Just give me a martini, the Times (Financial or NY), and a sunny day at the pool and I'll be fine. Thanks for caring. Your concern is touching!
Check out page 31 of the 9/01 issue of Car & Driver. Headline of story is "Skyline Version is U.S.-Bound". Says "there is angst in Japan about the Skyline losing its traditional round brake lights and 2.6-liter in-line six-cylinder engine." It will be using the V-6 you praise. I agree it is a very nice V-6. I had a loaner I-30 up to about 130 mph a couple years ago when I owned a '96 Infiniti G20t. But I doubt there would be "angst" in Japan if the Japanese thought so highly of the V-6. They know both engines very, very well. Isn't odd they don't view the V-6 as an instinctive improvement? Bet BMW and Lexus both glad Nissan is giving up this magnificent I-6 platform. Read a European mag review of the "legendary Nissan Skyline performance car" (C&D's quote). Will it still be legendary with the Nissan V-6? Only time will tell.
Well, I am surprised g-man. You are finally admitting that amortization of tooling, (by all manufacturers I presume?), rather than any superiority of design is a primary driver of engine design.
By the way, could you please cite for us the source who has confided the development schedule of the GM inline 4/5/6 program to you?
In Car and Driver, October 1995, "Technically Correct" by Kevin Clemens points out that in the I-6, "the primary and secondary vibrations created by each piston are exactly canceled by each other. So in-line six cylinder engines are inherently among the smoothest running of all engines". When discussing the V-8, he mentions " the residual secondary vibrations of the V-8". As to the V-6, he states that the best design is a "purpose-built 60 degree V-6 engine, with the crankshaft offset at 60 degrees.Such a design will fire every 120 degrees and have much lower primary and secondary imbalance. With careful design of the engine-mounting system, the vibrations that actually reach the inside of the car can be so low that you might wonder if the car is even running. Not as elegant as a straight six perhaps, but an engine with a healthy balance" So the V engines aren't perfect but the straight six is! One other point. Besides the tweaky Honda four-cylinders, do any other engines make as much power per pound and specific output as the current M3 engine? It must not have a big intake manifold problem, and it by no means looks like a "bundle of snakes" on a V-6.
So, could you please cite for us which particular survey was done to determine the amount of "angst in Japan" about the Skyline? or perhaps it's the "angst among rag writers" that is the true issue.
Don't think we should discuss it further. Japan has been in a recession for over a decade. Add this I-6 angst and you might have a flood of hari-kari. I wouldn't want that kind of guilt!
Know I know what makes a locomotive so smooooth. It must be the V16 that powers the electric motors since we know more cylinders means better balance! Where's that V20? I guess you would need a locomotive to house an I20!
Some good sources of info on it are the Encyclopedia of American Cars, 1940-1970 (1980) and Consumer Guide to Muscle Cars (1981). Each has a nice write up of the interesting high performance 230 & 250 cubic inch OHC I-6s used in the Pontiac Tempest from 1966-1969. The 230 CI version had max of 207 hp (1966) and 215 hp (1967) and the 250 had 215 hp (1968) and 230 hp (1969). Not too shabby output for the size.
Articles discuss how this was the first high performance I-6 since the Hudson Hornet. Calls it a "satisfying" engine. Excerpt: "... in Sprint form with Rochester Quadra-Jet carburetor, hotter valve timing, and double valve springs. The crankshaft had seven main bearings; the camshaft was driven by a fiberglass-reinforced notched belt rather than conventional chain or gear drive. The optional four-speed transmission, clean styling, and interior that featured bucket seats and console gave the Sprint the look and feel of a true grand touring car."
Kevin Clemens has given you only a partial explanation of the forces present in these engines. As stated in an actual "engineering" treatise on the subject, the I6, 60° V6 & 90° V8 are all perfectly balanced for both primary and secondary forces. The generated couples present in the I6 are absorbed by the crankshaft as bending forces, while the couples produced by the V6 & V8 configuration are COMPLETELY CANCELLED BY THE USE OF CRANKSHAFT COUNTERWEIGHTS (my emphasis). What this means is that in practical terms, any of these three designs can be engineered to be as "vibrationless" as the others.
Stan, why don't you read a REAL book on the subject yourself, instead of depending on the bits and pieces offered up by rag writers and dabblers.
Actually, according to the (engineering) books I've read, the only truly balanced 6 is the horizontally opposed (flat) 6 ala Porsche. All the rest (including the I6) generate couples which must be dealt with somehow.
Since I'm not getting paid to teach the "Fundamentals of Automotive Engineering" class this is turning out to be, here's some advice:
Buy the book, "Advanced Engine Technology" by Heinz Heisler, at the SAE.org or Amazon.com website and read it. When done, fire up your barbecue grill, get a "6 pack" (pun intended), and enjoy all the steaks which get carved out of your favorite sacred cow.
and not a single thing to read. I'm so disappointed.
It should be obvious to everyone that nobody here is changing their opinion, so why bother arguing about it? I used to get caught up in arguments like this until I realized 2 things:
1 - If you've made your case and the others still disagree, nothing you say is going to change the other person's opinion. So why keep trying? 2 - In the big picture of life, what difference does it really make? And why waste your time and effort (and high blood pressure) on it?
My approach now is to make my case, argue once if necessary and then just drop it. If the others don't agree then either you're wrong (hard to accept but possible), the other person is wrong but is convinced they're right, or you're dealing with a troll who's doing it for sport (I think all of us fall in the first two just for clarification). In all 3 cases there's absolutely nothing more you can do, so why waste your time.
(Geez, you even got Brian riled up, and that's hard to do!)
There are definitely those among us who, when presented with a photo of the earth taken from orbit showing it as a definite globe, will insist that the photo is an optical illusion, and the earth really is flat.
As for the comment about nothing to read....the previous "discussions" (whining's in my opinion) about more HP, performance issues, LM's direction, etc. (ad nauseum), are MY idea of nothing to read.
But, like you mentioned, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, although engineering matters, (as pertains to physical phenomena) are generally based on facts, and are not open to interpretation by "opinion".
Contrary to what jnowski (can I call you "the j-man"?) would have us all believe, no one source (i.e., human person), no matter how well educated or what experience he/she has, is the final word on any subject. Herr Heisler included. There are divergent opinions in all fields of science, both hard and soft. Law, economics, medicine, engineering, physics, chemistry, astronomy, etc. That includes engine configurations. And this includes organizations. Whether it is the SAE, ABA, AMA, etc. Not all members of these groups agree on anything (other than maybe that they've joined the same group).
I don't think it does any good to attack sources. Asking for a citation on some info or background info is one thing, but to blanketly attack or denigrate a source to prove a point is not worthy of an open and honest or full and fair discussion. That includes attacking the automotive press in toto.
As for engineers and "facts", I constantly chuckle at and periodically chide the group of DOT engineers I work with when they discuss roads, bridges, setting speed limits, the color of signs, safety strategies, etc. There are about a dozen of them. All licensed, skilled, and experienced engineers in their fields. I have never seen them all agree on anything. Heck, they can't agree that the new high visibility puke yellow/green signs are "better" than the former color they replaced. Nor can they agree on whether using asphalt or concrete is appropriate in a lot of cases. Or the exact mix of materials. Engineers are as bad as economists. You put a dozen in a room and you get anywhere from 6 to 18 opinions! On darn near any subject.
I saw somewhere, could have been a car rag or an internet site, that the new Ford V6 was 3.3L, 250 HP and was slated for Jag, Volvo & Lincoln. However, we must not take those future rumors all that seriously. Actual HP will depend upon exhuast systems, air supply and emissions calibration. How often have those rumors turned out not to be true.....but we can hope the new V6 arrives in the LS with allof the rumored 250 HP.
Stanny: Read my previous post! with split crackshaft rod journals you can have any angle V engine and still get a even firing order.
ezairconj4c: You left off a very important qualifier in my post "given the same displacement"
For all those with fond memories with the Pontiac I6 from the 60's you must have been fortunate enough to unload them before all the problems surfaced, rocker arms, lifters, cam drive, distributor etc. They ran good when new & in tune but time & miles significantly degraded their performance. Given the small numbers of the Pontiac I6 that were manufactured the shop I worked at made a lot of money fixing them! Comversely, other than occasional timing chain problems I can argue that the Chevy small block V8 and the Pontiac mid-block V8 were comparatively bullit proof.
I don't need to know too much about what they MIGHT do about I-4s and I-5s or other I-6s in the future. Heck, they might do nothing. Their wonderful 270 hp 4.2L I-6 is already in full production. They have expended the capital, R&D, staff time, etc. to develop it, tool up for it, and start production. They are depreciating/amortizing in accordance with GAAP and IRS rules. And their cost accountants will figure out the FUTURE costs of any actual I-4s or I-5s eventually produced taking into account the R&D, tooling, etc. costs that have already been costed against the I-6s produced. The I-4s and I-5s will end up being "cheaper", on a per unit basis, due to the prior costing out on the basis of the prior I-6 production which has already happened. And whether GM waits 1, 3, 5, or 7 years to make any other engines off the new I-6 could have a huge impact on the "cost" of these newer versions.
I pray GM won't build an I-5. Didn't Acura use something like that in their mediocre Viagra (oops Vigor)? Don't remember anyone praising that motor.
Guessing we might all agree on one thing. Engines should have an even number of cylinders. Five cylinders bad; six (or eight or twelve) cylinders good!
Doesn't that mean two basketball players have possession of the ball simultaneously and the referee whistle the action to a stop, requiring the two contesting players to jump for the ball to regain clear possession? Kind of like a hockey face off?
I'm 6 ft 2 inches. About 185 pounds. Scrawny and caucasian. Been a while since I played b-ball. I can jump but not dunk the ball.
gschwartz: Nice attempt a levity. A commodity in short supply around here at times. I'm much better at sarcasm and satire. Do they count as humor?
j-man: To show you how experts in a field rarely agree, just try linguistics and the English language. How do I spell labor/labour or humor/humour? Theatre or theater? Can I pronounce the "n-word" for atomic energy "nu-cu-ler" or "nu-cle-er"? I prefer the midwestern variant. How 'bout we settle our differences with a spelling bee? Geography test? History quiz? Geo-politics test? Economics? (Notice how I try to choose areas I think I might do well in.)
Can we clone or reanimate Satre? Nietzsche? Plato? What is the meaning of life? Does it have meaning? This board? I say let's keep the discussions as broad as possible and as narrow as needed. Fun but engaging. Heated but not too hot or for too long. Life's too short and the LS is too nice a car to get too cranked up about anything here!
With apologies to Swift: A modest proposal. We settle all strongly held disagreements in a dignified, professional, gentlemanly way... drinking contest. I'll start stacking up my Guiness Stout, Newcastle Brown ale, single malt scotch, and gin...
But were any of these really any good? How many are still around? Only goofy GM would chose to go back to an I-5. Thinking any I-6 or 60-deg V-6 would be inherently superior. My mantra remains: even number of cylinders is good.
Superman's cape isn't really indestructable, John Wayne is the ultimate tough guy, Forest Green does not represent all forests, and bears do poop in the woods - I've seen proof.
But Marvel Comics Ruled. Dr. (Victor von) Doom would kick Superman's rear in a fair fight. You are right about the Duke! Bet you stepped in the proof about bears.
Finally a g-man post (#4224) I can agree with! Well done. Now don't start stacking up your Guiness Stout, Newcastle Brown ale, single malt scotch, and gin...right before driving that hot LS V8 of yours on some two lane road late at night.
Personally I prefer a discussion that's fun, engaging, and cool..real cool. I believe you are correct slunar, The 60s Pontiac I6 did develop problems with age which was another reason they didn't survive. Luckily the Air Forces' SEA plans for me forced me to sell the Tempest before any engine aggravation. Aah, my misspent youth.
Sorry, that was my attempt at a little levity. I REALLY think it's all that weight that makes them sooooo smooth. And have you checked out their suspensions?
I'm always ready to take you on in a drinking contest! I don't read car magazines or engineering manuals but, I'm 6 foot tall and 230 lbs. and can out drink anybody I know. As long as I don't have to drink your Genny Cream Ale, I'll be the winner and probably the only one standing. Beer, scotch, or wine you pick the poison. Maybe Wixom would be a good place for the contest?
Thanks for bringing up a topic that I have vast yet subjective experience in.
Are either of you practicing engineers, preferably mechanical?
No offense (as if that were possible here), but I spend most of my day refereeing debates of this sort in a company that needs to deliver complex mechanical products on time while making a profit. The products are competitive in nature, though produced in much smaller quantities than in the auto industry.
Point being, reading magazines & books can be good, but what works and lasts is usually what matters. People who write articles may or may not have produced products that have withstood the test of time. I owned a 240-Z that had an absolutely bulletproof engine. Won't trouble you with the configuration. Those who care, know, and those who don't, don't care.
We can throw quotes back and forth until the world looks level, but in the end, the customer will call the shots. If the LS proves to be a competitive "luxury" sedan over the next 10 years, we'll all appear to have been experts. If not. . .most of you will turn in your lease cars and go on to the next flavour of the month.
The project car was dyno'ed today. To say I'm disappointed in the results would be a slight understatement. Considering the claims for the GMS mass air flow sensor and the Borla exhaust I was expecting to see around a 10 hp improvement. What we got was about a 3-5 hp increase once the readings were corrected for temperature and humidity.
I am going to swap out the GMS sensor and put back the stock sensor and try to get the car dyno'ed again next week to isolate where the discrepancy is.
While I know that the Borla exhaust is not as free-flowing as the Magnaflow prototype that we tested several months ago, I still expected to see more of an increase. The prototype system gave us a 12 hp increase. I would expect the Borla since it is a bit quieter to bring about 5-8 hp.
So currently LLSOC can't recommend getting a GMS mass air flow sensor at this time. It doesn't appear to contribute an increase and may possibly be taking some away. For $360 I would expect to see a better result. To be fair to GMS we will test it again on the dyno next week swapping it with the stock one on the same day to see the results.
geesh... doesn't anybody care about me and my fallen windows.... I love my car but i really hate driving around with duct tape holding the window up.. maybe if I had a car without duct tape I would give a da%m$n about V6 vs V8., 0-60 times, manual vs auto, endless discussions about engineering stats and who found them.. I just want to talk about the Lincoln LS and what we can do to fix the problems... not how to make the car a "Dream machine" for a select few...
The forum is called Lincoln LS not "wanna be experts and how they know more than anyone else and if you don't believe me I will talk you into oblivion"
After Jnowski, I am probably the second LS Manual to get Borla-ed. While the stock system had no sound, I agree with Joe about one thing and that is the Borla system is "polite". It has a resonance that Airconhall says occurs in the 50 mph range. Because of the Manuals deeper cruise gearing, this boom will probably occur at a lower speed than in the automatic. The installation was easier than anticipated, and I did it alone. The stock system is "one-piece", and after loosening the two clamps (15mm six-point deep socket) up near the front, removing the "safety" cross bracket under the resonators (two 8mm bolts) and removing the two hangers from the rubber "donuts" (a little WD-40 helps here), the whole stock system literally drops out. Compared to the Borla, the stock system weighs a ton has 1.75 diameter pipes versus Borla's 2.25. The V-6 has smaller stock pipes than the V-8, but the Borla system is the same for both engines, so the Borla really benefits the V-6 more. The Borla system comes in three "sections" . The easiest way to set it up is to attach the two pipes of the middle section to the one piece resonator/X-pipe section and then install the whole thing at once - just shove the resonator pipes into the original header pipes and attach the two middle rubber donut hangers. Six clamps are provided, and these are industial-strength wide babies which have to go on before you mate the pipes. Tighten the two front clamps and you are ready to fit the muffler/tip sections in. Just shove the pipes in and do the donut hanger trip again. Now it's all "well-hung" and you are ready for the most time-consuming and critical operation which we will call "adjustment for optimum looks". After tightening the four clamps "finger-tight" which requires the 15mm deep socket on a 3/8" ratchet handle, pretend you are driving the car behind yours in the Jack-in-the Box line and eyeball the chrome tips. By moving the pipes around you can control the angle and protrusion of the tips to a limited degree. Like tire pressure, you want some similarity between the sides so you don't look like one of those retards with the ill-fitting mufflers on a Honda Civic or Integra. After tightening the clamps, you are ready to let the neighbors know that, yes, the neighbor who is pushing middle-age is indeed having his second childhood/male-menopause period. I did resist the urge to start the cars sans exhaust system but I don't know why. With the Borla, I won't be taking crap from the Civic/Integra/Eclipse crowd anymore. Amen
It sounds like maybe some consensus has been reached, and now maybe we can put a period on what's been going on around here and get back to our regularly scheduled conversation.
I would like to put some emphasis on one thing I said last night. None of you are obligated to respond to any post that gets under your skin. If you can keep that in mind, it might be helpful to your blood pressure, and very likely would be helpful to keeping the discussion helpful, useful and on track . As we all know, sometimes posts are made for the sole purpose of riling others - if the bait is not taken, there is no reward for that sort of post to continue.
Meanwhile, please do feel free to drop me an email if you need to call my attention to a post or for any reason at all.
Thanks - you folks really have created one of the finer discussions that I read.
I'm in and want to stay in denial. My windows haven't had a problem, yet. Am sitting here with about 34,000 miles. A 9/99 build date. Thinking I'm vulnerable but somehow lucky, so far. Don't want to jinx my car. But now I'm afraid to open the rear windows or use the key or fob to universally open or close windows. And yet, I don't want to give in and live in fear. So I then periodically open them. All the while praying and in fear.
So all of you posting about your window problems, hope you know you have some of us living in constant fear! I'll just have to keep saying "It can't happen to me." Over and over. (Please let us know when the parts shortage is over and the engineering fix solved.)
j-man: Putting on your engineering hat, what do you attribute the window problem to? Poor engineering? Bad supplier? Cost cutting run amok?
Windows -- Isn't is interesting how such a trivial thing can grow into such a PR (and real -- I'm dealing with it) nightmare? Hundreds of people busted their butts to produce an excellent vehicle, with world-class handling, a quiet interior, and all the other things we like. No first-year vehicle is ever perfect, but when the problems come (and they always will), the test is how the company deals with it. Having read every post since this board began, I'm here to tell you that many/most of the local Lincoln/Mercury dealers don't appear to be prepared to deal with a car of this (intended) quality or target market bought by people who don't belong to the AARP. On top of that, the manufacturer (that would be the company that has had to deal with the world's biggest tire recall, followed by what appears to be the world's biggest ignition switch recall) isn't able (or willing) to provide the necessary parts when they're needed. G-man put forth a good question. Is it the supplier? A lack of planning by FoMoCo? Something else? Inquiring minds want to know.
Borla System -- Thanks very much Stan, for the detailed installation recap. Keep us posted as to your longer-term impressions.
Mods in General -- Don't be surprised if the "obvious improvements" put forward by aftermarket suppliers don't pan out. Ya think maybe the FoMoCo engineers may have known what they were doing in the first place? Just a thought.
Think I got in a lot of trouble here a while back saying the same thing. And I even backed my up thoughts with some published (if not longitudinal, statistically significant, or scientifically conducted--just as with Brian's results) test results on aftermarket air filters (K&N) and a less restrictive intake box (forgot the manufacturer). First was tested in a Catera and second in a Prelude. Neither produced any noticeable real world improvement that we could use in everyday life. The second product actually led to a huge unwanted noise increase.
Seems like too many aftermarket products are hype over substance. Many don't lead to improvements. Many also lead to degradations in areas like noise, fuel economy, durability, driveability. Or jeopardize warranty. If you want an LS to perform like something like an M3 or M5, installing gads of aftermarket parts likely won't do it. Just buy a used M3 or M5 instead?
After performing an autopsy on both an operating and failed rear window mechanism (pictures on the LLSOC site), I theorize that some economy was inflicted by the use of a "nylon bearing" or guide for the metal cable that is fixed rather than employing a real "wheel" type bearing. When the cable goes back and forth on the fixed nylon unit, the back and forth motion actually "saws" the material. I also did not spot any mechanism for tensioning the cable to compensate for age, temperature, stretch and physical wear. Once that cable gets off track, the inside of the door resembles an explosion in a speghetti factory. This mechanism seems just as problem prone as the old "gear and scissors" system used for decades.
They are fixing my LR window Thursday morning. When I was at the dealer having the RR fixed Tuesday the service manager said they bought the parts from another dealer in another city. So it appears that there are parts out there to be had. It sounds like your dealer needs to be added to the Hall of Shame. Since Christmas is coming up soon I might just ask Santa for 3 months of trouble-free service out of my high-dollar luxury automobile.
I think the horsepower letdown on the project car is from choosing an exhaust system that restricts flow too dramatically. You should probably look into an exhaust system similar to the one below.
Most aftermarket products are hype or more correctly, the claims are hype. Most people don't have access to a dyno to verify the claims. We're lucky enough to. One of LLSOC's mission statement goals is providing unbiased feedback regarding these products, including if we don't think they are worth the hype.
I agree with cdnpinhead and giowa with regards to casting an extremely jaundiced eye toward aftermarket vendors. Can you imagine someone spending $360 if the advertising read "And look, you can get 3 hp more!". What I really find hysterical is that you never see a part offered that produces under 10 additional horsepower.
Apparently you didn't read my profile, (then again perhaps you did, but still wanted to take a poke at me).
Yes, I am, and have been for over 26 years, an electronics design engineer in the field of electronic power conversion, where I hold 6 US patents. The products I work with are motor drives, UPS systems and power supplies in the range of a few watts up to 2MVA (that's Megawatts buddy). In addition to the electronics design portion I routinely design the packaging/heatsinking to house, mount, and cool the electronics portion of my designs, some of which have been the size of a car. I guess this gives me a mechanical background also? I've been a "gearhead" since my early youth, have done all the hotrodder stuff from bolt-ons to porting & cc'ing heads. My brother and I even had our own auto repair for several years while I went to college nights. And oh yeah, I know my way around a machine shop (tool & die) just fine thank you.
Unfortunately, I suspect that this problem affects all the 2000 models and some of the 2001 models until they changed suppliers. So I think that most of us will experience this problem at some point. I haven't had any problems with the windows but I fully expect to. I do use the rear windows quite a bit, so I don't know if exercising the windows prolongs the inevitable or not.
I'm supposing here, but I think the problem is multi-pronged. 1. The supplier made a inferior part. 2. Ford may have squeezed the supplier on price to where the supplier cut a few corners. 3. The part may not have been designed properly. 4. The dealers aren't being told what to do with the problem. Not securing the window in the up position is pretty customer service poor. Expecting owners to drive around with the windows taped up on a $35,000 car is really idiotic. 5. The parts from the new supplier isn't being put into the service channel quickly enough to satisfy the demand.
Whatever the reason for the problem, it is obvious that it is a customer service nightmare. As you all know, I don't generally advocate recalling things, but this appears to be widespread enough and unpredictable enough that it may warrant it.
Comments
Just give me a martini, the Times (Financial or NY), and a sunny day at the pool and I'll be fine. Thanks for caring. Your concern is touching!
By the way, could you please cite for us the source who has confided the development schedule of the GM inline 4/5/6 program to you?
So the V engines aren't perfect but the straight six is!
One other point. Besides the tweaky Honda four-cylinders, do any other engines make as much power per pound and specific output as the current M3 engine? It must not have a big intake manifold problem, and it by no means looks like a "bundle of snakes" on a V-6.
Articles discuss how this was the first high performance I-6 since the Hudson Hornet. Calls it a "satisfying" engine. Excerpt: "... in Sprint form with Rochester Quadra-Jet carburetor, hotter valve timing, and double valve springs. The crankshaft had seven main bearings; the camshaft was driven by a fiberglass-reinforced notched belt rather than conventional chain or gear drive. The optional four-speed transmission, clean styling, and interior that featured bucket seats and console gave the Sprint the look and feel of a true grand touring car."
Stan, why don't you read a REAL book on the subject yourself, instead of depending on the bits and pieces offered up by rag writers and dabblers.
Actually, according to the (engineering) books I've read, the only truly balanced 6 is the horizontally opposed (flat) 6 ala Porsche. All the rest (including the I6) generate couples which must be dealt with somehow.
Buy the book, "Advanced Engine Technology" by Heinz Heisler, at the SAE.org or Amazon.com website and read it. When done, fire up your barbecue grill, get a "6 pack" (pun intended), and enjoy all the steaks which get carved out of your favorite sacred cow.
That's it for me, I'm tired of typing.
It should be obvious to everyone that nobody here is changing their opinion, so why bother arguing about it? I used to get caught up in arguments like this until I realized 2 things:
1 - If you've made your case and the others still disagree, nothing you say is going to change the other person's opinion. So why keep trying?
2 - In the big picture of life, what difference does it really make? And why waste your time and effort (and high blood pressure) on it?
My approach now is to make my case, argue once if necessary and then just drop it. If the others don't agree then either you're wrong (hard to accept but possible), the other person is wrong but is convinced they're right, or you're dealing with a troll who's doing it for sport (I think all of us fall in the first two just for clarification). In all 3 cases there's absolutely nothing more you can do, so why waste your time.
(Geez, you even got Brian riled up, and that's hard to do!)
As for the comment about nothing to read....the previous "discussions" (whining's in my opinion) about more HP, performance issues, LM's direction, etc. (ad nauseum), are MY idea of nothing to read.
But, like you mentioned, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, although engineering matters, (as pertains to physical phenomena) are generally based on facts, and are not open to interpretation by "opinion".
I don't think it does any good to attack sources. Asking for a citation on some info or background info is one thing, but to blanketly attack or denigrate a source to prove a point is not worthy of an open and honest or full and fair discussion. That includes attacking the automotive press in toto.
As for engineers and "facts", I constantly chuckle at and periodically chide the group of DOT engineers I work with when they discuss roads, bridges, setting speed limits, the color of signs, safety strategies, etc. There are about a dozen of them. All licensed, skilled, and experienced engineers in their fields. I have never seen them all agree on anything. Heck, they can't agree that the new high visibility puke yellow/green signs are "better" than the former color they replaced. Nor can they agree on whether using asphalt or concrete is appropriate in a lot of cases. Or the exact mix of materials. Engineers are as bad as economists. You put a dozen in a room and you get anywhere from 6 to 18 opinions! On darn near any subject.
Stanny: Read my previous post! with split crackshaft rod journals you can have any angle V engine and still get a even firing order.
ezairconj4c: You left off a very important qualifier in my post "given the same displacement"
For all those with fond memories with the Pontiac I6 from the 60's you must have been fortunate enough to unload them before all the problems surfaced, rocker arms, lifters, cam drive, distributor etc. They ran good when new & in tune but time & miles significantly degraded their performance. Given the small numbers of the Pontiac I6 that were manufactured the shop I worked at made a lot of money fixing them! Comversely, other than occasional timing chain problems I can argue that the Chevy small block V8 and the Pontiac mid-block V8 were comparatively bullit proof.
I pray GM won't build an I-5. Didn't Acura use something like that in their mediocre Viagra (oops Vigor)? Don't remember anyone praising that motor.
Guessing we might all agree on one thing. Engines should have an even number of cylinders. Five cylinders bad; six (or eight or twelve) cylinders good!
I'm not familiar with that term, however if it is an insult, then....SAME TO YOU BUDDY!
Think basketball.
I'm 6 ft 2 inches. About 185 pounds. Scrawny and caucasian. Been a while since I played b-ball. I can jump but not dunk the ball.
gschwartz: Nice attempt a levity. A commodity in short supply around here at times. I'm much better at sarcasm and satire. Do they count as humor?
j-man: To show you how experts in a field rarely agree, just try linguistics and the English language. How do I spell labor/labour or humor/humour? Theatre or theater? Can I pronounce the "n-word" for atomic energy "nu-cu-ler" or "nu-cle-er"? I prefer the midwestern variant. How 'bout we settle our differences with a spelling bee? Geography test? History quiz? Geo-politics test? Economics? (Notice how I try to choose areas I think I might do well in.)
With apologies to Swift: A modest proposal. We settle all strongly held disagreements in a dignified, professional, gentlemanly way... drinking contest. I'll start stacking up my Guiness Stout, Newcastle Brown ale, single malt scotch, and gin...
Personally I prefer a discussion that's fun, engaging, and cool..real cool. I believe you are correct slunar, The 60s Pontiac I6 did develop problems with age which was another reason they didn't survive. Luckily the Air Forces' SEA plans for me forced me to sell the Tempest before any engine aggravation. Aah, my misspent youth.
Thanks for bringing up a topic that I have vast yet subjective experience in.
Tom....
No offense (as if that were possible here), but I spend most of my day refereeing debates of this sort in a company that needs to deliver complex mechanical products on time while making a profit. The products are competitive in nature, though produced in much smaller quantities than in the auto industry.
Point being, reading magazines & books can be good, but what works and lasts is usually what matters. People who write articles may or may not have produced products that have withstood the test of time. I owned a 240-Z that had an absolutely bulletproof engine. Won't trouble you with the configuration. Those who care, know, and those who don't, don't care.
We can throw quotes back and forth until the world looks level, but in the end, the customer will call the shots. If the LS proves to be a competitive "luxury" sedan over the next 10 years, we'll all appear to have been experts. If not. . .most of you will turn in your lease cars and go on to the next flavour of the month.
Others of us will be somewhat more disappointed.
What we got was about a 3-5 hp increase once the readings were corrected for temperature and humidity.
I am going to swap out the GMS sensor and put back the stock sensor and try to get the car dyno'ed again next week to isolate where the discrepancy is.
While I know that the Borla exhaust is not as free-flowing as the Magnaflow prototype that we tested several months ago, I still expected to see more of an increase. The prototype system gave us a 12 hp increase. I would expect the Borla since it is a bit quieter to bring about 5-8 hp.
So currently LLSOC can't recommend getting a GMS mass air flow sensor at this time. It doesn't appear to contribute an increase and may possibly be taking some away. For $360 I would expect to see a better result. To be fair to GMS we will test it again on the dyno next week swapping it with the stock one on the same day to see the results.
I'll keep everyone posted.
http://auto.com/industry/nissan15_20010815.htm
I love my car but i really hate driving around with duct tape holding the window up..
maybe if I had a car without duct tape I would give a da%m$n about V6 vs V8.,
0-60 times, manual vs auto, endless discussions about engineering stats and who found them..
I just want to talk about the Lincoln LS and what we can do to fix the problems... not how to make the car a "Dream machine" for a select few...
The forum is called Lincoln LS not "wanna be experts and how they know more than anyone else and if you don't believe me I will talk you into oblivion"
Ok I've vented.... thanks
Kevin
The installation was easier than anticipated, and I did it alone. The stock system is "one-piece", and after loosening the two clamps (15mm six-point deep socket) up near the front, removing the "safety" cross bracket under the resonators (two 8mm bolts) and removing the two hangers from the rubber "donuts" (a little WD-40 helps here), the whole stock system literally drops out. Compared to the Borla, the stock system weighs a ton has 1.75 diameter pipes versus Borla's 2.25.
The V-6 has smaller stock pipes than the V-8, but the Borla system is the same for both engines, so the Borla really benefits the V-6 more. The Borla system comes in three "sections" . The easiest way to set it up is to attach the two pipes of the middle section to the one piece resonator/X-pipe section and then install the whole thing at once - just shove the resonator pipes into the original header pipes and attach the two middle rubber donut hangers. Six clamps are provided, and these are industial-strength wide babies which have to go on before you mate the pipes. Tighten the two front clamps and you are ready to fit the muffler/tip sections in. Just shove the pipes in and do the donut hanger trip again. Now it's all "well-hung" and you are ready for the most time-consuming and critical operation which we will call "adjustment for optimum looks". After tightening the four clamps "finger-tight" which requires the 15mm deep socket on a 3/8" ratchet handle, pretend you are driving the car behind yours in the Jack-in-the Box line and eyeball the chrome tips. By moving the pipes around you can control the angle and protrusion of the tips to a limited degree. Like tire pressure, you want some similarity between the sides so you don't look like one of those retards with the ill-fitting mufflers on a Honda Civic or Integra. After tightening the clamps, you are ready to let the neighbors know that, yes, the neighbor who is pushing middle-age is indeed having his second childhood/male-menopause period.
I did resist the urge to start the cars sans exhaust system but I don't know why.
With the Borla, I won't be taking crap from the Civic/Integra/Eclipse crowd anymore. Amen
I would like to put some emphasis on one thing I said last night. None of you are obligated to respond to any post that gets under your skin. If you can keep that in mind, it might be helpful to your blood pressure, and very likely would be helpful to keeping the discussion helpful, useful and on track . As we all know, sometimes posts are made for the sole purpose of riling others - if the bait is not taken, there is no reward for that sort of post to continue.
Meanwhile, please do feel free to drop me an email if you need to call my attention to a post or for any reason at all.
Thanks - you folks really have created one of the finer discussions that I read.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
So all of you posting about your window problems, hope you know you have some of us living in constant fear! I'll just have to keep saying "It can't happen to me." Over and over. (Please let us know when the parts shortage is over and the engineering fix solved.)
j-man: Putting on your engineering hat, what do you attribute the window problem to? Poor engineering? Bad supplier? Cost cutting run amok?
Borla System -- Thanks very much Stan, for the detailed installation recap. Keep us posted as to your longer-term impressions.
Mods in General -- Don't be surprised if the "obvious improvements" put forward by aftermarket suppliers don't pan out. Ya think maybe the FoMoCo engineers may have known what they were doing in the first place? Just a thought.
Drive on!
Seems like too many aftermarket products are hype over substance. Many don't lead to improvements. Many also lead to degradations in areas like noise, fuel economy, durability, driveability. Or jeopardize warranty. If you want an LS to perform like something like an M3 or M5, installing gads of aftermarket parts likely won't do it. Just buy a used M3 or M5 instead?
Kevin
"saws" the material. I also did not spot any mechanism for tensioning the cable to compensate for age, temperature, stretch and physical wear.
Once that cable gets off track, the inside of the door resembles an explosion in a speghetti factory. This mechanism seems just as problem prone as the old "gear and scissors" system used for decades.
Folks, we have got to get back on the subject and stop talking about each other.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
I think the horsepower letdown on the project car is from choosing an exhaust system that restricts flow too dramatically. You should probably look into an exhaust system similar to the one below.
http://www.beaterz.com/reviews/0300/p49.htm
As an added benefit, I believe the unit is much less expensive than the Borla -or- the Magnaflow.
-Matt
I agree with cdnpinhead and giowa with regards to casting an extremely jaundiced eye toward aftermarket vendors. Can you imagine someone spending $360 if the advertising read "And look, you can get 3 hp more!". What I really find hysterical is that you never see a part offered that produces under 10 additional horsepower.
Yes, I am, and have been for over 26 years, an electronics design engineer in the field of electronic power conversion, where I hold 6 US patents. The products I work with are motor drives, UPS systems and power supplies in the range of a few watts up to 2MVA (that's Megawatts buddy). In addition to the electronics design portion I routinely design the packaging/heatsinking to house, mount, and cool the electronics portion of my designs, some of which have been the size of a car. I guess this gives me a mechanical background also? I've been a "gearhead" since my early youth, have done all the hotrodder stuff from bolt-ons to porting & cc'ing heads. My brother and I even had our own auto repair for several years while I went to college nights. And oh yeah, I know my way around a machine shop (tool & die) just fine thank you.
Oh yeah, I'm also a member of the AARP.
I'm supposing here, but I think the problem is multi-pronged.
1. The supplier made a inferior part.
2. Ford may have squeezed the supplier on price to where the supplier cut a few corners.
3. The part may not have been designed properly.
4. The dealers aren't being told what to do with the problem. Not securing the window in the up position is pretty customer service poor. Expecting owners to drive around with the windows taped up on a $35,000 car is really idiotic.
5. The parts from the new supplier isn't being put into the service channel quickly enough to satisfy the demand.
Whatever the reason for the problem, it is obvious that it is a customer service nightmare. As you all know, I don't generally advocate recalling things, but this appears to be widespread enough and unpredictable enough that it may warrant it.