I agree that the included maintenance eliminates it as an issue. . .until the warranty/lease expires. The issue is what the car costs to maintain after the warranty runs out. Extended warranties help, to an extent, but they often don't cover some pretty expensive potential repairs. I've written in the past about the differing needs/perceptions of the lease folks as compared to the "buy and hold" crowd. This is one of those issues.
<<<if you poke around on the 3 and 5 series board, you'll notice that BMW people absolutely love to drive. You've probably got more in common with them than you think:)>>>>
I for one would like to state I don't have anything in common with the typical BMW driver. I drive 35,000 plus miles a year as a sales rep so I have been observing certain things for a long time. Most, not all, BMW drivers drive like the world should get the hell out of their way. I drive fast but I don't constantly change lanes at high speeds when there's no room to fit in. They do this on highways and city streets. I don't use the sholder to pass when I'm frustrated. I don't bypass the people in the long line at the exit ramp only to stop in the slow lane to bull my way in because I'm too important to wait like averyone else. I don't park at the red curb at the mall because I'm too important, busy and in a bigger hurry than the rest of the population. I see this crap EVERY day. And the only difference between the BMW driver and the Benz driver is that the Benz driver dosen't change lanes he just flashes his lights from a half a mile away. He's even more important so he dosen't change lanes. Don't bother telling me I must be impeading traffic or I'm jealous. I drive fast ON THE HIGHWAY and I've owned a number of decient cars.
I have found that the most annoying rattle that I have is the passenger side, front window. You can "relieve" this rattle by quickly tapping the down switch once to take the pressure off. That takes care of one rattle. (I'll be mentioning this to the dealer on my next stop - I think there is a TSB for that and the squeaking driver's door.)
I have had drivers door rattle occasionally and the source is located on the top left of the door panel on the inside. I think this one would be easy for a Self-fix. It hasn't bothered me enough to move me to fix it and I've owned my LS for 2 years now.
On cold days I have heard a windshield rattle, but it is very infrequent.
Do these bother me - yes... did I buy a car that was a first year production vehicle - Yes.
The towncar is a rock solid vehicle that has been built on the same basic platform for the last 20+ years. It has had a long time to mature. My 1980 Mark VI is probably built on that basic platform and it has almost NO rattles, runs pretty decent and rides very smooth.
My point- the LS was BRAND NEW in 1999. Yeah, I've had the window failures and a few rattles here and there, but I expected them. If I'd have more problems than that - then I might change my mind. I paid $33,500 FOR MY loaded V6. Am I satisfied - absolutely - I'm gonna keep it for a long, long time!
Yeah, me be a big UNIX/LINUX facist, almost as bad as most Mac huggers are. ;-)
What we need is access to HIS terminal (you know, the man upstairs). Nah, would probably waste time all day typing things like: root> rm /home/user/username. Besides, might make a typo and remove Iowa or something.
Good to meet another Unix person, I love your Linux quote.
The concept Continental and Marauder convertible are looking pretty good for when my '01 LS is paid for in 2004...let's hope the brass pursues these automobiles that appear on the surface at least to bring back the Mystique (no pun intended).
Well I appreciate everyones input and it sounds like a resounding yes, most of you would buy the LS again and some of you in a New York Minute! Good to hear.
Now some of you did put in caveats, and it seemed like part of the reason you would deal with the quality issues is because there is nothing in the market that currently can compare (valuewise). It bodes well for the LS. And I agree, I drove cars three weeks ago, S60, Acura CL-TypeS, (only like 5-series bmws and not looking at spending that much right now). I still wanted my LS overall the CL was tempting though. In any case some of us here are settling (qualitywise) since Nothing comprable for that kind of money so we will deal with all of the issues.
I love the LS just not the quality issues, and yes I should have known the first year would have had issues but it cast a spell on me and I jumped. Like they say don't let emotions cloud your judgement and it did for me. Everybody told me don't do it but I thought this one would be different. Experience--- what a great expectation manager. I will be 27 in Feb. So I have a few things to learn.
I don't regret it, just frustrated. One thing though I walked away from the CL Type-S very impressed by the whole package, more refined than the LS, very smooth take off. Plenty of power, to small though. And I don't care for the look of the TL basically same car as CL Type-S.
That can happen if you are using a bookmark (or favorite) to get to this discussion. If that's what you are doing, you need to start here (you can bookmark this page): http://townhall.edmunds.com/cgi-bin/townhall/welcome, then go to the Read Subscriptions button on the left sidebar to that page. (You'll only see that button when you are logged in, but it sounds to me like you are probably using auto-login?)
akirby offers good suggestions as well. However, I don't think that cookies are involved in the tracking process of new messages. (That were definitely involved on our former platform, though.)
I hope this helps - but if I'm going off in the wrong direction, or if you have any questions, drop me an email and we'll see if we can figure out what's going on.
Very interesting, I looked at and drove the CL-S and TL when shopping for a car. Too small, some quality issues, etc. Mainly, the car was just too small (the CL) through it drove nicely. I also wanted to get back to RWD. I looked at a ton of cars, Audi, BMW, and the value issue kept coming up. I, like you, bought a first year car, although my build date was 6/00, and fortunately for me anyway the car has been great.
I could have afforded to buy a 540i, but didn't feel it offered enough to justify the staggering price delta (my LS V8 Sport cost me 31.5K plus trade in of a 7 year old SHO. The BMW was better off the line (not that much more HP than the LS 8 but a lot more torque), but at highway speeds the LS seemed to have no significant (to me) performance negatives, and the handling I like better than the BMW (though a car with trail throttle oversteer can be fun, neutral is better). Plus, I bought my LS and a 2001 Miata for less than the 540i, which is a better deal to me, one highway crusier luxury sport sedan, one pure, unadulterated sports car, which to me is much more satisfying. What's surprising, considering the weight difference, is how closely the LS handles like the Miata. Of course the Miata is more tossable and has better transient response and turn in due to weight, but the LS feels remarkably similar, just feels like you're moving a lot more car, which you are. Quite a tribute to the LS suspension engineers.
That's why I wouldn't hesitate to buy another LS (or Miata for that matter). I don't lease, but buy, and when a car is good I tend to keep them until the wheels go square. A good point has been made that the needs of leasers and long term buyers are different. If you leased for 2 years, and had a lot of teething troubles it could get very frustrating, when you plan on owning it for years, if the problems stay fixed it doesn't matter as much. It helps that my dealer is wonderful.
Different people will of course have different perceived values that need to be satisfied. With the improvements to the LS, like the re-spaced gearing in the tranny, and such, I expect my next LS to be even better.
Oh, one thing seems to seperate the "old" BMW enthusiasts from the "new" ones. Back in my 2002 days, everyone refered to BMW cars as "bimmers" and the bikes as "beemers." You got corrected if you used "beemer" for a car. I wonder now how many BMW auto owners today know what a stunning line of motorcycles BMW makes (though they too are pricey, I think their bikes are well worth it).
Pat - it sounded like he was already using the read subscriptions function which is why I suggested unsubscribing and resubscribing with the correct options, especially since all the other ones were working ok. And you are correct - no cookies. I must have been thinking of the autologin feature which does use cookies.
Agreed - and I think the unsubscribe/subscribe suggestion is well worth a try.
It just occurred to me that a lot of folks bookmark a particular discussion, and then with auto-login turned on, they use that book mark to go there - at that point, the Read Subscriptions button will function normally, but the bookmark would have taken them back to the current messages at the time it was created.
Probably not worth all this detail here, is it? :-)
Any/everyone is welcome to come here to continue this discussion.... or email me, that would be fine as well.
I like you am buying, but I am looking to the 2003 LS... If I don't buy it and keep my car for the long term that is what worries me. Also Resale value is surely hurt if they see all the times my car has been in the shop. I am sure it has been in the shop at least 15 times. I have the stack of receipts to prove it. Oil Changes and all included of course. I would wait until an oil change to have them fix something... In any case I have only been in and out once when I was going on a trip.
Regards, Airwolf1000
P.S. I also have a 94 Mercury Capri... The New Miata is alot nicer but I like the rear seat on the Capri. Good for a 3rd person. And it takes me skiing to New Mexico. If I don't get the 2003 LS or a used Audi A8, in 2003, I probably will buy my dream car an NSX (Probably a 95' so I can get a Targa Top(Used of course the depreciation is hideous on these,plus can't ante up 89K) in a couple of years after my LS is paid off.
With year to go on my LS lease. this is a question that I'm beginning to put a lot of thought into. Overall the LS fits me perfectly. Sure I'd like some improvements and expect them for 2003, but the overall look, driving feel and price is just about right for me.
What would keep me from getting another LS is what I consider horrible dealer service departments. In addition, the dealer sales departments can't quite come to grips with LS customers who may actually know how to unlatch the hood on their cars.
I have now had my LS back to the dealer a total of 9 times to 2 different dealers for a vibration problem. In hindsight the selling dealer screwed up my car the first time they touched it, left a nut off the suspension and broke a strut changing the rear half shafts. It took 7 more trips to the dealers, the involvement of Brian and Jenna Young to get the factory field rep involved to get my LS riding and steering the way it did before it ever saw a dealer service bay. The selling dealer also changed my tires to some crap Goodyears and warped my brake rotors during the many times the tires were off and on for balancing, rotating and swapping. The vibration problem, well it's finally a bit better thanks to the factory rep changing the half shafts again and balancing the drive shaft. However, the steering wheel still vibrates and shakes, an original condition that got worse after the 2nd dealer did a TSB procedure to change the steering shaft vibration damper spring. Who want's to guess that the dealer screwed up the procedure?
So I'm in a quandary for next year. No way would I want an IS300, soo small, ES-300, who wants a poor handling, under powered Camry with chrome?, I35, well ditto who wants an overpriced ill handling Maxima?, the lack of a fold down seat and uncomfortable driving position kills the 3.2TL, the smaller BMW 530i is too expensive and small, X type seems to be a total failure, Audi is possible although the A4 is too small and the A6 too expensive. The G35 is a definite possibility have to check it out when its in the showrooms. So unless something else hits the steets it looks like next year it may be between the the G35 and the 2003 LS. However, at this point for me to get a LS I'd have to get a guarantee that if there are any problems, like the vibration in my current LS I would get a no questions swap to a different car. It's black and white to me, the dealers are completely incompetent to work on the LS. I wil not go through 9 trips back to the dealer again, especially when my car leaves their shop in worse condition than when it went in.
My only concern about buying another LS is what color to get ;-) Seriously, I was very concerned about buying a first year model (build date 7/99) but things have worked out very well so far.
As everyone seems to have expressed, besides the "what else is there?", I think having lived with the car for 2.5 years, the expectations for a new model have gone way up.
I find myself thinking "if only" a lot. If only there was more power, if only there was a 6-speed, if only there was more storage space, if only there was a slight re-design to address the back end, if only the quality bar was raised, if only the dealers were in the 21st century, if only the advertising could make people understand what it feels like to drive one, if only...
I love my LS, but I find myself looking at the new Mustang Cobra (390 hp !), the Mercury Marauder (335 hp), the BMW 540i etc and wishing for more, more, more. I want an LS on steroids !!!
Referencing the BMW crowd that have responded on our forum about how we typecast them, I'd like to remind them that I attempted a civilized conversation about autocrossing and, heaven forbid, that the LS could do as well as a BMW 540, and got pretty well skewered on the 5 board. It's pretty fair turnaround, I think.
We do have things in common. We both think our cars are great. They are both the ultimate sports sedans from companies in their native country. And we are both passionate about the driving experience.
Differences? We are at least realistic when we look at our cars and realize that there are other makes and models that are equal or better than us. I do find it interesting that at most SCCA SOLO 2 autocrosses there is a very poor turnout of BMW models. While I realize that the BMWCCA has their own autocross events, it is a huge turnaround from the late 70s-early 80s when the SCCA autocrosses were dominated by the BMW 2002/320s. Unfortunately for the majority of people, especially in Southern California, "yuppie scum" is an unfortunate stereotype that holds too true out here.
The enthusiast BMW owners are great folks but the majority of 5-series drivers that I've known out here are more interested in the status symbol value of their car than they are in the driving excitement factor. To each their own, but I find that sad, that they don't know or even care about how much fun their car is to drive.
Yeah, I remember the response you got on the board there, totally uncalled for, especially as it could have turned into an interesting topic for those of us who autocross or are serious enthusiasts.
I also find it sad that the only one who apparently knows to call the cars "bimmers" is an LS owner!
Well, given your experiences with the LS you have now, I can well understand your dilema. Keeping it doesn't seem like that good an idea, and you're wondering if the 2003 will be any better. Tough choice. I liked the Acuras, but just could not get enough headroom in either the CL or TL, and the TL had the most uncomfortable seats I've ever sat in, they missed supporting the lower back, and no amount of playing with adustments helped. I had a backache by the end of the test drive.
A 94 Capri? Cool. I remember those, they were pretty cool, too bad they stopped importing them from Austrailia. I remember one car rag had a comparo of the Miata and Capri when it came out. They said the Miata handled better and was the true sports car, but said that if they had to live with it daily the extra room and (at the time)more oomph of the Capri would make it their choice. That was one car review that I thought was really well balanced. I had a Capri, but it was an 85, which means it was a Mustang GT in a weirder body. Was fun though, and cheap. Headers, duals with crossover pipes, 4bbl 750 cfm Holley carb, all from the factory. Still miss the sound of a big carb sucking air.
The NSX is a way cool car, European supercar performance and styling in a more reliable Japanese car. Definitely need the targa top though, at least I would. What fun is driving a car like that with a roof? ;-) You need the it open so you can hear the engine more.
Yuppie scum may be, but I will say one thing -- the local BMW dealer could always fix my E36 3-Series.
That's a bit more than I can say for the local Lincoln-Chrysler-Dodge outfit. They are very pleasant and have same-day turnaround, but I really wonder if they actually -do- anything to the car. There really is zero improvement when I get it back.
The writeup always reads "adjusted x; tightened y." "Bring it back if happens again." In computerdom, we call this an infinite loop since the escape condition (being fixed) is never met. I know -- gloom and doom.
As someone else noticed (Victor?), the 2001 and 2002 MY owners don't seem to have the same niggles as we 2/00-5/00 2000 MY owners. That's good news on the quality front.
Next on Lincoln's list, however, should be to fix the dealer network.
After all, getting a Mopar oil change sticker on the windshield just doesn't exactly promote the Lincoln brand. :-)
What if that led me to buy the Mopar $3,875 coffee table instead of the Lincoln $4,999 coffee table? Talk about lost market share in the household durables market! Where would Ford be then?
I lease. Some of my peers here leave the distainful impression that all leasees are wannabes short on cash trying to move up on the cheap in the car world. I could buy any LS or any other car ever discussed on this board as a serious alternative to the LS, but can't "afford" to. Let me explain.
First, its a game. I do merger deals for a living and cutting vehicle deals is a bus driver's holiday for me. Sometimes buying and sometimes leasing - I cut the best deals for me based on cost/benefit/risk to me. I have purchased 9 vehicles and leased 10 in the last 19 years - 0wned/leased exactly 40 vehicles since my first in 1969.
Second, the kinds of vehicles discussed here are not an investment as I know well from all dollars I have spent on them. That means using other people's money, low depreciation, long warranties and gratis maintenance plans are the key financial ingredients I look for.
So when I find a car I really like - the LS, its a no brainer to lease when Red Carpet offers up a $37,500 cap cost on a MSRP of $40,671, 53% residual (when ALG was predicting 45% on 3 years), .000828 money factor (essentially about 2%), no money down, no security deposit, Ford made the first months payment! Signed my name and walked out with the keys. $498/mo. No new model risk, no loss of resale if the market turned out weak in three years and "sell" the car to the dealer at lease end for a recovery if the market is strong.
Leasing is NOT for folks who want low long term cost and are willing to mess with repairs and maintenance hassles, who modify their vehicles, who put on lots of miles, or who are hard on cars causing more than ordinary wear and tear.
Back to the "afford" issue, I wanted a 540i, but the lease terms were lousy and ownership costs are high on any $58,000 car. As to 540s high resale, its true. But the envy money in the front end cost is hefty. My LS lease depreciation is $15,945 for 3 years. A good deal on a loaded 540i would go out the door at say $55,000. Ignoring sales taxes in both cases, even if the BMW returns 65% residual the depreciation is $19,250. That's $3,300 more for just depreciation. At 60% residual, the extra depreciation on the 540 pays 1 year of the lease cost on the LS. Add the cost of the invested funds and I can't "afford" the 540i vis a vis the LS.
The LS remains the best blend of cost/performance in the sports sedan segment - period. Would I lease/buy another in 2004? Wouldn't rule it out, but I want to see 300+HP and some tranny options. Get rid of the +60mm ET wheels so you can buy some decent looking aftermarket wheels, and make sure 18-19 inch rims will clear the running gear.
A Lincoln-Chrysler-Dodge dealership? You gotta be kidding! No wonder you aren't getting decent service. If you venture over to the 300M board you'll see that they complain about service all the time.
Catching up on all the posts, there is a TSB for creaking front windows on 2000 model year builds. Seems the lubricant had contaminants in it which causes the creaking sound. Dealer should be able to look it up. Calls for replacement of the front window regulator, naturally.
Also what some of the folks are saying about the 2002s being better built is carrying through with the TSBs on the Ford Service DVDs that I get monthly. The last TSB listed is 1-25-01 and nothing else after that.
regardless of what they drive. I've seen behavior from BMW owners like that mentioned above, and had some good clean fun on the road with others. The day I took delivery of my LS and had it on the interstate taking the very long way home from the dealer, a guy in a fairly new 740 pulled up alongside, looked it over, and nodded his approval. A couple days ago I posted on a board about driving schools, and got a response from a guy who lives in the same area as me. He races his M3 in a club on weekends and invited me to join him sometime, saying that anyone is welcome, BMW owner or not, and that he'd love to see what the LS can do on the track. So it takes all kinds.
Somewhere out there is an arrogant, self-possessed jerk driving a Lincoln LS. Hard to believe, I know, but probably true.:)
In all fairness I think the "yuppie scum" comment was taken a little out of context. The original post said ' "yuppie scum" image baggage' - nobody here actually called anyone a yuppie scum (recently anyway). The point was that there are a lot of people who a) buy BMWs and other prestige brands just for the image. I think they're the minority but there are a lot of them out there. b) assume BMW drivers fall into category a.
So, there is a lot of image baggage that comes with driving a BMW. It has no basis in fact - it's just a widely held opinion. IIRC back in the mid-80s Volvos had a similar reputation and I have to admit based on my personal experiences it was well-deserved most of the time. Although we deduced Volvo ownership from their attitude and demeanor, not vice versa.
Driving a Lincoln (or Cadillac) also seems to carry some baggage, albeit a different kind.
I personally don't care why other people think I bought a vehicle - I buy whatever I want. I don't care if there are 12 others just like it in the neighborhood (Expedition is blue Eddie Bauer and they're everywhere, but I like it and could care less). To me that just reconfirms that I made a good choice. I'm not looking to make a statement with what I drive.
Buy cars that you like because you like them - not for the statement you think it makes about you.
Slunar, has his finger on the point I was making.. Too many times to the Dealer. To much lost time and hassle. Lincoln needs to fix this, it is an issue. And I know many other automakers like Chrysler as somebody pointed out are as bad as Lincoln. But that does not necessarily make it right. Also Quality pays for itself. Furthermore if the car came out as close to perfect as possible, the dealer would only do oil changes and the like so the chance of them screwing things up like Scratching my B-Pillar during inserting my Passenger seat back, and breaking my passenger side AC Vent wouldn't happen. Or having a pigeon problem and having a pigeon crap on my seat (When it was out of the car). Less time in the shop, Less time for them to screw up.
I really have to thank you for putting your thoughts into words on this issue As a leaser of both my cars since 1994, I've remained silent when the occasional potshots have been taken here at those that lease. I read somewhere, but can't verify, that 75% of LSes are leased. So, we might be in very good company. Although I don't see the sense in buying a depreciating asset, not all of my decisions boil down to dollars and cents. For me, there are intangibles to leasing and they just suit my personality. I like to always be driving a relatively new car that is covered by warranty. I have no compulsion or need to keep any car for decades or until the wheels fall off. I like having the latest in technology and safety systems. When I want an old car, I'll get something from the 60's musclecar era to play with. Should my car turn out to be a lemon or say, be involved in a serious accident, I know that my time with it is finite. I'm not "stuck with it." My LS (9/99 build) has been great but if it hadn't been, I wouldn't be hand-wringing right now about if the windows are going to fail when the warranty is up or do I have to live with these vibrations for the next xx years. Granted, those that buy can always get rid of a problem car, but they'll probably be taking a bath financially or just aren't in a position to do it at a particular time.
For those that look down their noses at leasers because they think that "all leasees are wannabes short on cash trying to move up on the cheap in the car world," I find this to be a specious argument. I've leased 5 cars since 1994 and plan to go on doing so. Therefore, I daresay that in the grand scheme of things my financial outlay will be higher than yours. I'm just not taking out of my bank in a lump in putting it in Ford's bank.
So with my current lease expiring in December of this year, I'll be ripe & ready for the first significantly improved LS, which I eagerly await seeing next week at LS Mania 3. The timing was perfect, albeit dumb luck.
It just works for me; it might not for you. The big downside for me is that I can't make all the modifications to the car that I'd like to.
Just wanted to inform any dallasites that I am going to attend the SCCA Solo II Autocross here in Dallas. It is on March 16 and 17. They were not clear on the fees for the events. However they are having a Test and Tune on the 16, and the competition on March 17. If you are interested please let me know. I would like to get an LS contingency out there. I need to know soon as the spots are running out.
Chartrand? Andy (I know its a drive from Austin but you are invited)? Are you interested?
I see you too, are a former E36 owner like myself. I Had a 1992 318is, which I had fun modifying with M3 parts, VDO Guages, short shift levers from M Coupes, etc. Never WENT any faster, but sure looked fast.
Just curious, what led you to Lincoln from your E36? I labored over the LSV6 Sport vs. a used 528i Sport, but obviously, you can see the choice I made. ;-)
Glad you liked my soapbox monologue. I got carried away. My real point (and yours and many others here)is do your thing, but listen and learn. This is a great board, and I enjoy it and have learned a lot.
I see you are a W30 guy - very nice car. I "campaigned" a Liberty Blue 1969 GTO Ram Air IV on Washington Ave in Madison, WI for several years in that era. Got creamed twice by the same 1970 W30. :-}
There was one, remember. He bought a different car
I agree with akirby also. I don't buy a car because of what it says about me. I buy one because it fits my style of driving.
And auto enthusiasts are a pretty friendly bunch of folks, regardless of brand loyalty and preferences. I have yet to go to an autocross or a car show and not be able to strike up a converstation that both sides enjoyed!
autoc - Could you be a bit more specific in your description of "jerky?" You don't give us much to go on. What model year, what tranny (manual, auto, auto w/sst), what engine, more description on why you felt the trans was jerky (off the line, in downshifts, upshifts?).
The original cars has odd gear spacing, but that was evened out in 2002. Early models had problems with delayed engagement of R or D, but that was fixed with a reflash of the transmission computer. The car does tend to jerk, at least the V8, right off the line as the tip in on the throttle can be abrupt. Takes about a week to get used to, then you adapt and takeoffs are smooth.
Let us know more, we can answer your question better that way.
Thanks for the response. I thank you described the problems better than my term "jerky." I tried both the 6 and 8 cylinder automatic, probably in the 2000 model. As the car was gaining speed, or when I kicked down the gas pedal, automatic change of gearing setting was not smooth, but rather with a definitive "jerk." Based on your email, I gather the problems are pretty much resolved for the better, although not perfect, at least for the 8 cylinder.
If the 2000 you drove didn't have the reflash, it could well have behaved that way. The gear spacing on the pre-2002 tranny's was weird, and helped contribute to some odd downshifts. The reflash fixed 2 main problems, some early transmissions had 2-5 second delays when switching between park, reverse, and drive, and they also had a very harsh downshift to 2nd gear with a lot of hesitation.
My 2000 V8 wasn't showing signs of these problems, but when I had the reflash done, I was surprised at the difference it made. All the automatics are the same, regardless of engine, in fact you can convert a non-sst shifter to add the select shift.
The feel of the transmission has been problematic in earlier cars, but it's good to see that Lincoln is taking the problem and feedback seriously and making improvements. I would suggest you give a 2002 a test drive to give it a chance, that'd tell you if the improvements have solved the issue you had. As much as I like my LS and recommend it, it's no point buying a car that has some problem you're sensitive to. Everyone has different things that drive them nuts, I know I've had a few cars that made me crazy with admittedly minor quirks that just happened to hit my hot button.
Regards, and happy shopping! JS LLSOC Charter Member
Where will it be held? What are times and terms to enter? If I'm in town, I'd like to go. Probably just do the test and tune on Sat. How do I get more info and where do I register? Are you going to Mania III Victor? I'm still hoping I can get one of my customers to pay the trip out there for me. Ray LLSOC charter member
I wonder if a person can get an accurate feel for transmission behavior in a demo that hasn't been 'trained'. Mark: Are you listening? If so, what do you say?
I think the deal is that the computer looks for a specific timing sequence when a shift is commanded. If it doesn't see it, pressures (or whatever) are adjusted to "make it so." Helps adapt clutch wear and other myriad variables in the transmission to what the designer had in mind. From what Mark has told us in the past, driving style isn't the issue -- mechanical variability in the transmission is.
I'm sure Mark will give the real answer in due course, but thought I'd provide an interim one.
M87 I concur 100% on your leasing comments. I have tried to point out several times over the last 2 years that the % residual value means nothing. The actual depreciation in $ not % & the money factor are important (as is the cost per mile of usage). I also agree, don't put 1 cent down on a lease. If you want the lowest cost of ownershi, buy & keep it until it dies. If you want to change cars every 3 or 4 years leasing can have lower total cost of ownership. As the pro's say, never buy a depreciating asset.
Airwolfe: Yes Lincoln needs to fix their dealers! I had 3 missing screws on my inner fenders. One time when I brought in my LS I told the service writer and pointed out where one of the missing screws was along with showing him what the screw that went there looked like. Well they didn't even have the screw in stock had to order it, had to bring the LS in a 2nd time. After the 2nd visit only 1 screw was added, the one I pointed out. I had to point out where the 2 other missing screws were supposed to go, which of course required 2 more trips to the dealer, one to point out the 2 other missing screws and another one to get them installed.
I also had a missing bracket on the engine cover. I told the service writer, but it didn't get replaced. I had to go back show them were the missing bracket was and also show them another LSV8 on the lot so they could see the bracket. Of course they had to order the bracket requiring still another trip to the dealer.
My driver's seatbelt appears to be installed in the B Pillar flipped 180 degress, which causes it to jam. I pointed this out. All the dealer did was twist it over where it comes out of the B pillar. It took a week before it twisted back. At this point I figure the dealer would screw up more things pulling the interior trim off the B pillar so I decided to live with it.
I get a good laugh out of those who talk about their cars being washed. Every time I pick up my car it is filthy. One time it was covered with some sort of rust residue that would not wash off, had to polish it out.
At this point I wouldn't trust a Lincoln dealer to check the air in my tires let alone change the oil & filter.
Transmission: One of the few things that went right when I took my car into a Lincoln dealer was to get the latest PCM reflash. I am now 100% satisfied with the V8 engine & transmission. My LS seems much more responsive with the new software and the trannie shifting is smooth & fast, both upshifting & downshifting.
Well, I'm no longer a member of the "My LS has had zero problems" club--my windshield wipers went kaput. I always keep the auto-wipe feature on; went driving during a light rain and was surprised when the wipers didn't activate. I flipped the switch to manual; still nothing. I tried every setting, and the darn things just don't work. Fortunately I use RainX & the rain was light so I could see to get back home.
They worked the previous day, and I didn't notice any specific event that I could tie to the failure--no warning lights or unusual electrical activity. No smoke from anything, thank goodness, and everything else seems to work fine.
I checked the fuse (#26) behind the interior kick panel, but it was OK. I expected it to be, though, because the washer still shoots fluid on the windshield & that fuse manages both the wiper relay & washer. I checked the under-hood power distribution box, too. The fuse (#20) for the wiper motor appears to be intact.
There are three relays (#1, #2, and #9) in that box that control various wiper functions, but the manual says to not mess with them without disconnecting the battery; they appear to be sealed, too, so I didn't figure I could do any good by pulling them anyway.
My question is this: Has anyone had what I'd call a comprehensive wiper failure? I checked the TSB list on the NHTSA site, & the only thing I found were references to the auto-wipers, but nothing about total system failure. If anyone had such a problem, do you remember the cause & remedy?
My selling dealer is 75 miles away, and I'm hesitant to go to the dealer that's 10 minutes from my house because of some bad experiences reported by other owners at that dealership. I have a few days to decide what to do, since rain's not in my forecast for the next several days, but I'd like to gather as much info as I can before I head for a service department.
Jeez; I HATE having to deal with car repairs. I'm really lucky, because this is the first one in the 17 months that I've owned the car, but still... (Yeah, I know; quit whining, JLinc. )
I'll go to a Lincoln dealer and try out another LS!
I am comparing the LS to the new CTS Caddy, which might need a little time to determine its reliability. The BMW 3 drives real nice, but the trunk is way too small!
But a few things drove me to the LS. The creature comforts were outstanding. Amazing seats, and the ergnomics were right on the money (case in point, the perfectly-positioned center armrest).
The availability of the V8 (go torque!), the advanced suspension, great handling, sharp looks, the list goes on. I think I could talk all day about this car.
I was very happy with my 3 series, so it took more than just a great car to make the switch. The value was undeniable, and Martin Family FLM (not the local Lincoln-Chrysler-Dodge outfit) really made the deal a no-brainer.
Sheesh -- they even let me toy around in an LS of my choice for two days to make sure I liked the car. We hopped on the locator, and the rest was, well, history.
Thanks for the feedback; I checked LLSOC, too, and didn't find anything. My guess is that you're probably right--the wiper motor probably went on permanent hiatus. (Check your Email, por favor.)
Here's something I forgot to post earlier. I went to the post office this afternoon, and in the parking lot was a spectacular '57 Lincoln Mark II. It had a beautiful, nearly flawless silver exterior with a grey interior and maroon seat inserts and trim. The owner came walking up while I was ogling it, and I told him how much I admired it & that I'd owned a Mark 7 & Mark 8; when I pointed to my LS, he gave me a big grin.
The LS has some really fine cars in its lineage; the Mark II is one of the best, IMHO. It has such simple, elegant lines with a notable absence of extraneous trim and flash; even though it's obviously from a bygone era, it's still a beautiful car today. I trust that Mr. McGovern and team will keep such things in mind as they chart Lincoln's styling direction; the Continental show car has some really nice heritage notes, IMO. Hope they keep traveling that path.
A brand new car that hasn't had time to "learn" should provide close to the ideal function. The calibration is set for a nominal transmission, so most should be about right. Minor changes to the shifting pressures will go on for the life of the transmission.
The software looks for the length of time each shift takes from when it is commanded until it is complete. It adjusts the pressure for the next shift if it sees a long or short shift.
OK, all you electronics experts. I just got an amp. My question is do I wire the amp up like an after market radio? By that I mean, radio (speaker wires) to amp to speakers? Does any one know what color(s) the speaker wires are? I would normally post this on the club message board, but, alas, it still has issurs. Hang in there Brian!!!
We're remodeling our house, and the garage is full of kitchen cabinets and other stuff. The LS has been rather hemmed in for a number of weeks. Our Taurus has been parked in the driveway, so when we needed to go someplace we used the Taurus.
A couple days ago, I was supposed to take the Lincon in to have a black box removed that was installed as part of a voluntary participation in a FMC study. The black box is reputed to monitor all engine computer variables and report them into FMC via satellite on a periodic basis. This study lasted about a year.
I had parked the LS locked up in the garage. The little security LED was blinking for a number of weeks (perhaps 8 weeks without driving it). When I dug it out and tried to start it up to take it in for my appointment to have the black box removed, the battery was as dead as a stone!
Normally, I don't have the car locked while parked in the garage, but during this period I did. How much current does the security system draw under these circumstances?
I put the charger on it for a day and a half, and the car returned to its normal enthusiastic self. I was just surprised that the battery would go dead from simply sitting for two months with the security system going.
Seems like that LED should blink for years without draining the battery. Maybe it was just sulking from lack of attention. Two months!? Shame on you.:)
Batteries will drain faster in cold weather. I also heard that with all of the recent technology enhancements that just the normal computer voltage requirements will drain a battery much quicker than a few years ago. I'm sure the anti-theft monitoring only makes it worse. This is one of the reasons that mfrs are switching to 42 volt systems in the next few years. I wouldn't bet on it holding a charge more than a couple of weeks.
Comments
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I for one would like to state I don't have anything in common with the typical BMW driver. I drive 35,000 plus miles a year as a sales rep so I have been observing certain things for a long time. Most, not all, BMW drivers drive like the world should get the hell out of their way. I drive fast but I don't constantly change lanes at high speeds when there's no room to fit in. They do this on highways and city streets. I don't use the sholder to pass when I'm frustrated. I don't bypass the people in the long line at the exit ramp only to stop in the slow lane to bull my way in because I'm too important to wait like averyone else. I don't park at the red curb at the mall because I'm too important, busy and in a bigger hurry than the rest of the population. I see this crap EVERY day. And the only difference between the BMW driver and the Benz driver is that the Benz driver dosen't change lanes he just flashes his lights from a half a mile away. He's even more important so he dosen't change lanes. Don't bother telling me I must be impeading traffic or I'm jealous. I drive fast ON THE HIGHWAY and I've owned a number of decient cars.
I have had drivers door rattle occasionally and the source is located on the top left of the door panel on the inside. I think this one would be easy for a Self-fix. It hasn't bothered me enough to move me to fix it and I've owned my LS for 2 years now.
On cold days I have heard a windshield rattle, but it is very infrequent.
Do these bother me - yes... did I buy a car that was a first year production vehicle - Yes.
The towncar is a rock solid vehicle that has been built on the same basic platform for the last 20+ years. It has had a long time to mature. My 1980 Mark VI is probably built on that basic platform and it has almost NO rattles, runs pretty decent and rides very smooth.
My point- the LS was BRAND NEW in 1999. Yeah, I've had the window failures and a few rattles here and there, but I expected them. If I'd have more problems than that - then I might change my mind. I paid $33,500 FOR MY loaded V6. Am I satisfied - absolutely - I'm gonna keep it for a long, long time!
What we need is access to HIS terminal (you know, the man upstairs). Nah, would probably waste time all day typing things like: root> rm /home/user/username. Besides, might make a typo and remove Iowa or something.
Good to meet another Unix person, I love your Linux quote.
Now some of you did put in caveats, and it seemed like part of the reason you would deal with the quality issues is because there is nothing in the market that currently can compare (valuewise). It bodes well for the LS. And I agree, I drove cars three weeks ago, S60, Acura CL-TypeS, (only like 5-series bmws and not looking at spending that much right now). I still wanted my LS overall the CL was tempting though. In any case some of us here are settling (qualitywise) since Nothing comprable for that kind of money so we will deal with all of the issues.
I love the LS just not the quality issues, and yes I should have known the first year would have had issues but it cast a spell on me and I jumped. Like they say don't let emotions cloud your judgement and it did for me. Everybody told me don't do it but I thought this one would be different. Experience--- what a great expectation manager. I will be 27 in Feb. So I have a few things to learn.
I don't regret it, just frustrated. One thing though I walked away from the CL Type-S very impressed by the whole package, more refined than the LS, very smooth take off. Plenty of power, to small though. And I don't care for the look of the TL basically same car as CL Type-S.
Regards,
Airwolf1000
LLSOC Member
akirby offers good suggestions as well. However, I don't think that cookies are involved in the tracking process of new messages. (That were definitely involved on our former platform, though.)
I hope this helps - but if I'm going off in the wrong direction, or if you have any questions, drop me an email and we'll see if we can figure out what's going on.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
I could have afforded to buy a 540i, but didn't feel it offered enough to justify the staggering price delta (my LS V8 Sport cost me 31.5K plus trade in of a 7 year old SHO. The BMW was better off the line (not that much more HP than the LS 8 but a lot more torque), but at highway speeds the LS seemed to have no significant (to me) performance negatives, and the handling I like better than the BMW (though a car with trail throttle oversteer can be fun, neutral is better). Plus, I bought my LS and a 2001 Miata for less than the 540i, which is a better deal to me, one highway crusier luxury sport sedan, one pure, unadulterated sports car, which to me is much more satisfying. What's surprising, considering the weight difference, is how closely the LS handles like the Miata. Of course the Miata is more tossable and has better transient response and turn in due to weight, but the LS feels remarkably similar, just feels like you're moving a lot more car, which you are. Quite a tribute to the LS suspension engineers.
That's why I wouldn't hesitate to buy another LS (or Miata for that matter). I don't lease, but buy, and when a car is good I tend to keep them until the wheels go square. A good point has been made that the needs of leasers and long term buyers are different. If you leased for 2 years, and had a lot of teething troubles it could get very frustrating, when you plan on owning it for years, if the problems stay fixed it doesn't matter as much. It helps that my dealer is wonderful.
Different people will of course have different perceived values that need to be satisfied. With the improvements to the LS, like the re-spaced gearing in the tranny, and such, I expect my next LS to be even better.
Oh, one thing seems to seperate the "old" BMW enthusiasts from the "new" ones. Back in my 2002 days, everyone refered to BMW cars as "bimmers" and the bikes as "beemers." You got corrected if you used "beemer" for a car. I wonder now how many BMW auto owners today know what a stunning line of motorcycles BMW makes (though they too are pricey, I think their bikes are well worth it).
It just occurred to me that a lot of folks bookmark a particular discussion, and then with auto-login turned on, they use that book mark to go there - at that point, the Read Subscriptions button will function normally, but the bookmark would have taken them back to the current messages at the time it was created.
Probably not worth all this detail here, is it? :-)
Any/everyone is welcome to come here to continue this discussion.... or email me, that would be fine as well.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Regards,
Airwolf1000
P.S. I also have a 94 Mercury Capri... The New Miata is alot nicer but I like the rear seat on the Capri. Good for a 3rd person. And it takes me skiing to New Mexico. If I don't get the 2003 LS or a used Audi A8, in 2003, I probably will buy my dream car an NSX (Probably a 95' so I can get a Targa Top(Used of course the depreciation is hideous on these,plus can't ante up 89K) in a couple of years after my LS is paid off.
What would keep me from getting another LS is what I consider horrible dealer service departments. In addition, the dealer sales departments can't quite come to grips with LS customers who may actually know how to unlatch the hood on their cars.
I have now had my LS back to the dealer a total of 9 times to 2 different dealers for a vibration problem. In hindsight the selling dealer screwed up my car the first time they touched it, left a nut off the suspension and broke a strut changing the rear half shafts. It took 7 more trips to the dealers, the involvement of Brian and Jenna Young to get the factory field rep involved to get my LS riding and steering the way it did before it ever saw a dealer service bay. The selling dealer also changed my tires to some crap Goodyears and warped my brake rotors during the many times the tires were off and on for balancing, rotating and swapping. The vibration problem, well it's finally a bit better thanks to the factory rep changing the half shafts again and balancing the drive shaft. However, the steering wheel still vibrates and shakes, an original condition that got worse after the 2nd dealer did a TSB procedure to change the steering shaft vibration damper spring. Who want's to guess that the dealer screwed up the procedure?
So I'm in a quandary for next year. No way would I want an IS300, soo small, ES-300, who wants a poor handling, under powered Camry with chrome?, I35, well ditto who wants an overpriced ill handling Maxima?, the lack of a fold down seat and uncomfortable driving position kills the 3.2TL, the smaller BMW 530i is too expensive and small, X type seems to be a total failure, Audi is possible although the A4 is too small and the A6 too expensive. The G35 is a definite possibility have to check it out when its in the showrooms. So unless something else hits the steets it looks like next year it may be between the the G35 and the 2003 LS. However, at this point for me to get a LS I'd have to get a guarantee that if there are any problems, like the vibration in my current LS I would get a no questions swap to a different car. It's black and white to me, the dealers are completely incompetent to work on the LS. I wil not go through 9 trips back to the dealer again, especially when my car leaves their shop in worse condition than when it went in.
As everyone seems to have expressed, besides the "what else is there?", I think having lived with the car for 2.5 years, the expectations for a new model have gone way up.
I find myself thinking "if only" a lot. If only there was more power, if only there was a 6-speed, if only there was more storage space, if only there was a slight re-design to address the back end, if only the quality bar was raised, if only the dealers were in the 21st century, if only the advertising could make people understand what it feels like to drive one, if only...
I love my LS, but I find myself looking at the new Mustang Cobra (390 hp !), the Mercury Marauder (335 hp), the BMW 540i etc and wishing for more, more, more. I want an LS on steroids !!!
We do have things in common. We both think our cars are great. They are both the ultimate sports sedans from companies in their native country. And we are both passionate about the driving experience.
Differences? We are at least realistic when we look at our cars and realize that there are other makes and models that are equal or better than us. I do find it interesting that at most SCCA SOLO 2 autocrosses there is a very poor turnout of BMW models. While I realize that the BMWCCA has their own autocross events, it is a huge turnaround from the late 70s-early 80s when the SCCA autocrosses were dominated by the BMW 2002/320s. Unfortunately for the majority of people, especially in Southern California, "yuppie scum" is an unfortunate stereotype that holds too true out here.
The enthusiast BMW owners are great folks but the majority of 5-series drivers that I've known out here are more interested in the status symbol value of their car than they are in the driving excitement factor. To each their own, but I find that sad, that they don't know or even care about how much fun their car is to drive.
Brian
I also find it sad that the only one who apparently knows to call the cars "bimmers" is an LS owner!
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
A 94 Capri? Cool. I remember those, they were pretty cool, too bad they stopped importing them from Austrailia. I remember one car rag had a comparo of the Miata and Capri when it came out. They said the Miata handled better and was the true sports car, but said that if they had to live with it daily the extra room and (at the time)more oomph of the Capri would make it their choice. That was one car review that I thought was really well balanced. I had a Capri, but it was an 85, which means it was a Mustang GT in a weirder body. Was fun though, and cheap. Headers, duals with crossover pipes, 4bbl 750 cfm Holley carb, all from the factory. Still miss the sound of a big carb sucking air.
The NSX is a way cool car, European supercar performance and styling in a more reliable Japanese car. Definitely need the targa top though, at least I would. What fun is driving a car like that with a roof? ;-) You need the it open so you can hear the engine more.
Regards,
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
That's a bit more than I can say for the local Lincoln-Chrysler-Dodge outfit. They are very pleasant and have same-day turnaround, but I really wonder if they actually -do- anything to the car. There really is zero improvement when I get it back.
The writeup always reads "adjusted x; tightened y." "Bring it back if happens again." In computerdom, we call this an infinite loop since the escape condition (being fixed) is never met. I know -- gloom and doom.
As someone else noticed (Victor?), the 2001 and 2002 MY owners don't seem to have the same niggles as we 2/00-5/00 2000 MY owners. That's good news on the quality front.
Next on Lincoln's list, however, should be to fix the dealer network.
After all, getting a Mopar oil change sticker on the windshield just doesn't exactly promote the Lincoln brand. :-)
What if that led me to buy the Mopar $3,875 coffee table instead of the Lincoln $4,999 coffee table? Talk about lost market share in the household durables market! Where would Ford be then?
-Matt (who is never, ever cynical!)
First, its a game. I do merger deals for a living and cutting vehicle deals is a bus driver's holiday for me. Sometimes buying and sometimes leasing - I cut the best deals for me based on cost/benefit/risk to me. I have purchased 9 vehicles and leased 10 in the last 19 years - 0wned/leased exactly 40 vehicles since my first in 1969.
Second, the kinds of vehicles discussed here are not an investment as I know well from all dollars I have spent on them. That means using other people's money, low depreciation, long warranties and gratis maintenance plans are the key financial ingredients I look for.
So when I find a car I really like - the LS, its a no brainer to lease when Red Carpet offers up a $37,500 cap cost on a MSRP of $40,671, 53% residual (when ALG was predicting 45% on 3 years), .000828 money factor (essentially about 2%), no money down, no security deposit, Ford made the first months payment! Signed my name and walked out with the keys. $498/mo. No new model risk, no loss of resale if the market turned out weak in three years and "sell" the car to the dealer at lease end for a recovery if the market is strong.
Leasing is NOT for folks who want low long term cost and are willing to mess with repairs and maintenance hassles, who modify their vehicles, who put on lots of miles, or who are hard on cars causing more than ordinary wear and tear.
Back to the "afford" issue, I wanted a 540i, but the lease terms were lousy and ownership costs are high on any $58,000 car. As to 540s high resale, its true. But the envy money in the front end cost is hefty. My LS lease depreciation is $15,945 for 3 years. A good deal on a loaded 540i would go out the door at say $55,000. Ignoring sales taxes in both cases, even if the BMW returns 65% residual the depreciation is $19,250. That's $3,300 more for just depreciation. At 60% residual, the extra depreciation on the 540 pays 1 year of the lease cost on the LS. Add the cost of the invested funds and I can't "afford" the 540i vis a vis the LS.
The LS remains the best blend of cost/performance in the sports sedan segment - period. Would I lease/buy another in 2004? Wouldn't rule it out, but I want to see 300+HP and some tranny options. Get rid of the +60mm ET wheels so you can buy some decent looking aftermarket wheels, and make sure 18-19 inch rims will clear the running gear.
Catching up on all the posts, there is a TSB for creaking front windows on 2000 model year builds. Seems the lubricant had contaminants in it which causes the creaking sound. Dealer should be able to look it up. Calls for replacement of the front window regulator, naturally.
Also what some of the folks are saying about the 2002s being better built is carrying through with the TSBs on the Ford Service DVDs that I get monthly. The last TSB listed is 1-25-01 and nothing else after that.
Brian
Somewhere out there is an arrogant, self-possessed jerk driving a Lincoln LS. Hard to believe, I know, but probably true.:)
Scott
LLSOC Member
a) buy BMWs and other prestige brands just for the image. I think they're the minority but there are a lot of them out there.
b) assume BMW drivers fall into category a.
So, there is a lot of image baggage that comes with driving a BMW. It has no basis in fact - it's just a widely held opinion. IIRC back in the mid-80s Volvos had a similar reputation and I have to admit based on my personal experiences it was well-deserved most of the time. Although we deduced Volvo ownership from their attitude and demeanor, not vice versa.
Driving a Lincoln (or Cadillac) also seems to carry some baggage, albeit a different kind.
I personally don't care why other people think I bought a vehicle - I buy whatever I want. I don't care if there are 12 others just like it in the neighborhood (Expedition is blue Eddie Bauer and they're everywhere, but I like it and could care less). To me that just reconfirms that I made a good choice. I'm not looking to make a statement with what I drive.
Buy cars that you like because you like them - not for the statement you think it makes about you.
Regards,
Airwolf
For those that look down their noses at leasers because they think that "all leasees are wannabes short on cash trying to move up on the cheap in the car world," I find this to be a specious argument. I've leased 5 cars since 1994 and plan to go on doing so. Therefore, I daresay that in the grand scheme of things my financial outlay will be higher than yours. I'm just not taking out of my bank in a lump in putting it in Ford's bank.
So with my current lease expiring in December of this year, I'll be ripe & ready for the first significantly improved LS, which I eagerly await seeing next week at LS Mania 3. The timing was perfect, albeit dumb luck.
It just works for me; it might not for you. The big downside for me is that I can't make all the modifications to the car that I'd like to.
Thanks for listening.
Artie
Charter member, LLSOC
Chartrand? Andy (I know its a drive from Austin but you are invited)? Are you interested?
Regards,
Victor
LLSOC Member
Just curious, what led you to Lincoln from your E36? I labored over the LSV6 Sport vs. a used 528i Sport, but obviously, you can see the choice I made. ;-)
I see you are a W30 guy - very nice car. I "campaigned" a Liberty Blue 1969 GTO Ram Air IV on Washington Ave in Madison, WI for several years in that era. Got creamed twice by the same 1970 W30. :-}
Jim
LLSOC member
There was one, remember. He bought a different car
I agree with akirby also. I don't buy a car because of what it says about me. I buy one because it fits my style of driving.
And auto enthusiasts are a pretty friendly bunch of folks, regardless of brand loyalty and preferences. I have yet to go to an autocross or a car show and not be able to strike up a converstation that both sides enjoyed!
Brian
Thanks
I can't believe your Ram Air IV got "creamed" by the W30. Must have been a ringer:)
Artie
The original cars has odd gear spacing, but that was evened out in 2002. Early models had problems with delayed engagement of R or D, but that was fixed with a reflash of the transmission computer. The car does tend to jerk, at least the V8, right off the line as the tip in on the throttle can be abrupt. Takes about a week to get used to, then you adapt and takeoffs are smooth.
Let us know more, we can answer your question better that way.
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
"There was one, remember. He bought a different car
I think said person has a new goal in life, making sure the stereotype of the obnoxious BMW owner is is well supported.
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
I thank you described the problems better than my term "jerky." I tried both the 6 and 8 cylinder automatic, probably in the 2000 model. As the car was gaining speed, or when I kicked down the gas pedal, automatic change of gearing setting was not smooth, but rather with a definitive "jerk." Based on your email, I gather the problems are pretty much resolved for the better, although not perfect, at least for the 8 cylinder.
My 2000 V8 wasn't showing signs of these problems, but when I had the reflash done, I was surprised at the difference it made. All the automatics are the same, regardless of engine, in fact you can convert a non-sst shifter to add the select shift.
The feel of the transmission has been problematic in earlier cars, but it's good to see that Lincoln is taking the problem and feedback seriously and making improvements. I would suggest you give a 2002 a test drive to give it a chance, that'd tell you if the improvements have solved the issue you had. As much as I like my LS and recommend it, it's no point buying a car that has some problem you're sensitive to. Everyone has different things that drive them nuts, I know I've had a few cars that made me crazy with admittedly minor quirks that just happened to hit my hot button.
Regards, and happy shopping!
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
If I'm in town, I'd like to go. Probably just do the test and tune on Sat.
How do I get more info and where do I register?
Are you going to Mania III Victor? I'm still hoping I can get one of my customers to pay the trip out there for me.
Ray
LLSOC charter member
I'm sure Mark will give the real answer in due course, but thought I'd provide an interim one.
Airwolfe: Yes Lincoln needs to fix their dealers! I had 3 missing screws on my inner fenders. One time when I brought in my LS I told the service writer and pointed out where one of the missing screws was along with showing him what the screw that went there looked like. Well they didn't even have the screw in stock had to order it, had to bring the LS in a 2nd time. After the 2nd visit only 1 screw was added, the one I pointed out. I had to point out where the 2 other missing screws were supposed to go, which of course required 2 more trips to the dealer, one to point out the 2 other missing screws and another one to get them installed.
I also had a missing bracket on the engine cover. I told the service writer, but it didn't get replaced. I had to go back show them were the missing bracket was and also show them another LSV8 on the lot so they could see the bracket. Of course they had to order the bracket requiring still another trip to the dealer.
My driver's seatbelt appears to be installed in the B Pillar flipped 180 degress, which causes it to jam. I pointed this out. All the dealer did was twist it over where it comes out of the B pillar. It took a week before it twisted back. At this point I figure the dealer would screw up more things pulling the interior trim off the B pillar so I decided to live with it.
I get a good laugh out of those who talk about their cars being washed. Every time I pick up my car it is filthy. One time it was covered with some sort of rust residue that would not wash off, had to polish it out.
At this point I wouldn't trust a Lincoln dealer to check the air in my tires let alone change the oil & filter.
Transmission: One of the few things that went right when I took my car into a Lincoln dealer was to get the latest PCM reflash. I am now 100% satisfied with the V8 engine & transmission. My LS seems much more responsive with the new software and the trannie shifting is smooth & fast, both upshifting & downshifting.
They worked the previous day, and I didn't notice any specific event that I could tie to the failure--no warning lights or unusual electrical activity. No smoke from anything, thank goodness, and everything else seems to work fine.
I checked the fuse (#26) behind the interior kick panel, but it was OK. I expected it to be, though, because the washer still shoots fluid on the windshield & that fuse manages both the wiper relay & washer. I checked the under-hood power distribution box, too. The fuse (#20) for the wiper motor appears to be intact.
There are three relays (#1, #2, and #9) in that box that control various wiper functions, but the manual says to not mess with them without disconnecting the battery; they appear to be sealed, too, so I didn't figure I could do any good by pulling them anyway.
My question is this: Has anyone had what I'd call a comprehensive wiper failure? I checked the TSB list on the NHTSA site, & the only thing I found were references to the auto-wipers, but nothing about total system failure. If anyone had such a problem, do you remember the cause & remedy?
My selling dealer is 75 miles away, and I'm hesitant to go to the dealer that's 10 minutes from my house because of some bad experiences reported by other owners at that dealership. I have a few days to decide what to do, since rain's not in my forecast for the next several days, but I'd like to gather as much info as I can before I head for a service department.
Jeez; I HATE having to deal with car repairs. I'm really lucky, because this is the first one in the 17 months that I've owned the car, but still... (Yeah, I know; quit whining, JLinc.
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
JohnnyLinc, LLSOC charter member
I checked the TSB list on LLSOC as well and didn't see anything about failing wipers. I wonder if the wiper motor has failed.
Brian
I am comparing the LS to the new CTS Caddy, which might need a little time to determine its reliability. The BMW 3 drives real nice, but the trunk is way too small!
But a few things drove me to the LS. The creature comforts were outstanding. Amazing seats, and the ergnomics were right on the money (case in point, the perfectly-positioned center armrest).
The availability of the V8 (go torque!), the advanced suspension, great handling, sharp looks, the list goes on. I think I could talk all day about this car.
I was very happy with my 3 series, so it took more than just a great car to make the switch. The value was undeniable, and Martin Family FLM (not the local Lincoln-Chrysler-Dodge outfit) really made the deal a no-brainer.
Sheesh -- they even let me toy around in an LS of my choice for two days to make sure I liked the car. We hopped on the locator, and the rest was, well, history.
So what got you to make a switch?
-Matt (LLSOC member, etc, etc)
Here's something I forgot to post earlier. I went to the post office this afternoon, and in the parking lot was a spectacular '57 Lincoln Mark II. It had a beautiful, nearly flawless silver exterior with a grey interior and maroon seat inserts and trim. The owner came walking up while I was ogling it, and I told him how much I admired it & that I'd owned a Mark 7 & Mark 8; when I pointed to my LS, he gave me a big grin.
The LS has some really fine cars in its lineage; the Mark II is one of the best, IMHO. It has such simple, elegant lines with a notable absence of extraneous trim and flash; even though it's obviously from a bygone era, it's still a beautiful car today. I trust that Mr. McGovern and team will keep such things in mind as they chart Lincoln's styling direction; the Continental show car has some really nice heritage notes, IMO. Hope they keep traveling that path.
A brand new car that hasn't had time to "learn" should provide close to the ideal function. The calibration is set for a nominal transmission, so most should be about right. Minor changes to the shifting pressures will go on for the life of the transmission.
The software looks for the length of time each shift takes from when it is commanded until it is complete. It adjusts the pressure for the next shift if it sees a long or short shift.
Mark
Thanks.
Mike
Proud LLSOC Charter Member
A couple days ago, I was supposed to take the Lincon in to have a black box removed that was installed as part of a voluntary participation in a FMC study. The black box is reputed to monitor all engine computer variables and report them into FMC via satellite on a periodic basis. This study lasted about a year.
I had parked the LS locked up in the garage. The little security LED was blinking for a number of weeks (perhaps 8 weeks without driving it). When I dug it out and tried to start it up to take it in for my appointment to have the black box removed, the battery was as dead as a stone!
Normally, I don't have the car locked while parked in the garage, but during this period I did. How much current does the security system draw under these circumstances?
I put the charger on it for a day and a half, and the car returned to its normal enthusiastic self. I was just surprised that the battery would go dead from simply sitting for two months with the security system going.