Lincoln LS

stanny1 · June 2002

The LS maybe the Wal-Mart pricing model for LM. Low prices everyday. Brian's comment about Manuals on E-Bay makes me curious about how much my dealer will stimulate me to buy my Manual when the lease ends in 13 months.
Collector's Car or Orphan, that's the question.

cdnpinhead · June 2002

When I was the first to respond to Mr. "one1otter1", the ever-vigilant "Pat" asked me to remove my response, as she had just removed his post. Being a good puppy, I did as I was told.

But, lo and behold. . ."one1otter1" has now become the man of the hour. Go figure.

Here's the thing. Driving a new car off the lot reduces its value by a huge amount, regardless of manufacturer. It's not by accident, by the way, that when you're in the serious part of signing paperwork and otherwise buying a car that they (the dealer) want you to take it out (again -- you've probably already done a test drive) and "go around the block."

Point being, once you've signed the paperwork and driven the vehicle off the premises, it's yours. You've just lost a significant percentage of what you just spent (or borrowed from the bank, or whomever). It happens every day of the week.

Now, our latest thorn appears to be stating the obvious, with the additional tweak that U.S.-made cars in this category don't hold their value so well as the (nameless) teutonic crowd that has been in this segment for four decades.

Pardon us, Sir. We do enjoy our cars. Can you say the same? The only thing I can tell from your profile is that you live in the land of people who put cars up on blocks in the front yard. Do you own a car? What is it? How do you like it? Exactly why is it better or worse than the LS?

ls1bmw0 · June 2002

Well said and quite eloquently put, I must say!

akirby · June 2002

I just ate dinner at my favorite chinese restaurant. I've been eating there for at least 15 years and know the owner very well. He has a nice royal blue Lexus SC430. As I pull into the parking lot what do I see but a cherry red X5 4.6i. Apparently he sold short on a bunch of stock and it was burning a hole in his pocket (he still has the Lexus BTW). Business was slow and before I could ask him to see the inside he asks me if I want to go for a spin. He really had to twist my arm.

I didn't care for the dash design but the engine - Oh My! He only had 100 miles on it and hadn't figured out how to use the steptronic shifter so I showed him. Nailed the gas in 2nd gear and found my head plastered to the headrest. Couldn't really push the suspension but you could tell this thing was on rails (20" rims). He said it didn't have the highest performance sport pkg either. But on the freeway it was awful. Not much flex in those sidewalls.

I thought it would be a good comparison to take to the Lincoln test drive tomorrow since it was one of the vehicles that Lincoln wanted to know if i was interested in purchasing in the future.

cb44 · June 2002

Stanny1,

Interesting to also note the 6 cars in front of the M3 in that R&T handling test.

Porsche 911 Twin Turbo
Ferrari 360 Modena
Lotus Elise
EVO Pro VII
Corvette Z06
Porsche Boxter S (disagree here)

Not bad company to be in, regardless of price.

(Hey, I'm not keeping this M3 diversion alive, just responding ....

ls1bmw0 · June 2002

I would take any one of those in a heartbeat, keeping my LS as my daily driver, of course. Okay, except for the Lotus Elise which I couldn't fit into or the EVO just 'cause I don't like the way it looks.

Hey cb44, email me a pic of your red M3 convertible, would you?

drolds1 · June 2002

At the Mania 'O3LS III presentation, I asked the marketing lady (sorry about the awkward appellation, but I can't recall her name or title- I'm sure Brian knows) about 2003 prices. She replied that they would pretty much try to hold the line on prices, as they do not want to price themselves out of this market. Let's face it, price is a major factor in the LS's appeal. If you take that out of the equation, the LS is at a distinct disadvantage. If Lincoln sees Cadillac as it's competition, then they might have to lower prices. IIRC, the base CTS is being advertised at $29,995. Mid 40's would no longer be in the entry-level luxury range and would be in luxury tax territory. However, without divulging any secrets, I do think that some of the new options to be offered will be quite pricey. But they are just that- options. You don't have to take them.

We know that the full McLaren package adds about $12K to the price of an LS-E and those are 2003 prices. The automatic trans version will supposedly sell for 50K. You do the math.

stanny1 · June 2002

If the McLaren package is 50k, it may be a bargain in relation to the price of a optioned- out 2003 V-8 LS, which I think will easily go over 43k if the 2002 Manual was $39,545.
If I wasn't stuck in 4 door territory, 50k has me dreamin - Boxster S, Z06, even an M3 or 2 year old CPO M5 with a warrantee.
I guess I'm used to no more than 35k for a car. I feel comfortable with a payment under $500.
Then I can afford $200 tires and $200 brake pads, $800 exhaust systems and $175 air boxes. Is it pay it now or pay it later?

jerry2281 · June 2002

Just returned from occasional Sunday morning inventory check. Nigri-McCue LM in St. Charles, IL has two Autumn Red LS's in stock as well as five (!!!) LSE'S, 3 black, 2 silver). Now there is a dealer who understands how to stock LS's for the enthusiast. BTW, I leased my Dec. 2001 LS-8 Sport there. 26,000 problem free miles and beating EPA mileage at much higher than EPA 55 mph speeds. A very pleased LS lessee.

ronniepooh · June 2002

Brian...Actually, BMW usually is pretty close with their HP specs. (Printed vs. real world). The reason yo felt so much low end grunt in the E36 M3 you drove is torque. Although that 3.2 liter engine puts out "only" 240hp, I *think* that thing puts out about 314lb/ft of torque. Thats significant, to say the least.

As a former BMW owner, I love the M3. Period. To be honest, love ALL the \\m Cars. And Im COMPLETELY JEALOUS of CB44 and his 6 speed E46 M3. DAMN YOU!

:-)

Kidding. Enjoy that M3.

55k on my 2000 V6 Sport/Auto, and still growing strong. Plan to keep it until fall of 2004, and will assess my options then.

txlaker · June 2002

Haven't been here in months - sometime back saw a posting about replacing the breaks to minimize front wheel dust. Does anyone recall?
Only ~2mm left on front pads and will need to be replaced.
Thanks

al

div2 · June 2002

I covered the press intro of the 4.6is. There is only one suspension available for the is, and that is the sport calibration with 20" Michelin Diamaris 4X4 tires. The engineers told me that the 4.6 has essentially the same engine used in the Alpina B10 sedan- and that it doesn't develop maximum power until it has 6000 miles on the clock. My driveaway 4.6 had about 4000 miles on it when BMW pried it from my clutches(I was behind the wheel for 32 hours the week I had it) and it was getting stronger by the mile. I didn't find the ride that punishing, though you can certainly tell that it is biased toward handling. Try the brakes- the 4800 lb. can do the 70-0 exercise in about the same distance as a 911. I think the 14"X1.42" front rotors may have something to do with that...

stanny1 · June 2002

Go to www.racebrakes.com. Most LS owners on this site have gone to the Porterfield pads. They are Carbon/Kevlar and create less dust and a whole lot more stopping power. They will set you back about $200 for front and rears, less if you are an LLSOC member.
They are easy to install but you will need something called a piston rotation tool.

akonikua · June 2002

I just bought a 2000 LS V8 premium...this may be a stupid question but can the sport package be "added on"??? I currently have an all-black model with tinted windows and a moonroof, but I want to lower it and add 18-inch wheels. If am making modifications to the suspension (i.e. - lowering the car) would the sport package make efforts easier??? any comments on going from 16-inch to 18-inch wheels in the premium??? Finally, my most important reason for wanting the sport package is because it has the body-colored bumbers instead of those chrome "bars" that run across the bumpers (to me those "bars" seem to emphasize the luxury features of the car). Is there an easier way to remove those bars without adding the entire sport package? Any help would be great. (Maybe I should just trade-it in for a sport version, huh? I should've thought of that a long time ago)

scottc8 · June 2002

Don't know about removing the chrome strips, but a cheap way to go might be buying Sport model bumper covers from someplace like www.bumpers.com.

Besides the wheel size, the rest of the Sport package is mainly slightly stiffer springs and shocks. If it's handling you're after, think twice about lowering the car. The LS suspension is a very thoroughly engineered package and if you start seriously messing with it you probably won't like the results.

Everything you want to know about wheels, tires, and other modifications is available at www.llsoc.com, and we have trial memberships for new owners of the LS.

akirby · June 2002

I was going by the owner's assertion that there was a different sportier suspension available. And I didn't mean to imply that it was punishing, just that you could really feel the road irregularities (which should be expected). It seemed to have plenty of power to me already with just 100 miles on the odometer. If it gets better after 6K - WOW! Not really my style but a very impressive vehicle from a performance standpoint. I wouldn't mind taking it around Road Atlanta a few time.

stanny1 · June 2002

I've been told that the main difference between Sport and Regular is shocks and oil cooler but springs may be different. Maybe LLSOC Prez Brian will comment.
We have been told by the top engineers that lowering is will wreck the critical geometry of the suspension. The suspension of the LS is very sophisticated. Just pull off a rear wheel and look and you can tell this is not a Honda Civic. I don't think you'll find a kit to lower the LS either.
As far as wheels go, you may find some frustration there also. Go to Tire Rack and play with their simulations and recommendations. The LS wheels have a radical 60mm offset. Most aftermarket wheels have a max of about 42mm. Also, much more than 7.5 width and you may have caliper interference.
Your best bet may be a set of stock 17" Sport wheels with a good Summer performance tire like the Bridgestone S0-3 Pole Positions. Or if you live with snow and rain, the Michelin Pilot A/S.
With the offset complication, it may not be worth it to go 18". The performance difference is questionable.

heyjewel · June 2002

Well, don't keep us in suspense - what can you tell us about your test drive yesterday?

ls1bmw0 · June 2002

The Sport models differ in shock valving, oil cooler, SST and slightly larger diameter anti-sway bars and the body color bumpers. Be aware if you decide to change the front bumper cover you will also need to order the Sport side marker lights which are narrower.

akirby · June 2002

It's on LLSOC under members lounge and in the Lincoln Aviator forum here. Didn't want to cross post it here since it might be deemed off-topic. What I will say here is if Lincoln uses the same satin-nickel center stack and console treatment in the 2003 LS as they did in the Aviator/Navigator it should be a big hit. The 300 hp 4.6L had lots of power, even for a heavy SUV. I think it will more than hold it's own against the competition.

akirby · June 2002

If I were doing any modifications I would just get the LSE appearance package from CDC(??). You get custom wheels, front and rear fascias (I think you still need some of the Sport package bumper parts but maybe not the entire bumper cover), etc. It gives the car a lowered look because of the extra lower body work but without altering the near perfect driving dynamics.

ronniepooh · June 2002

Im interesting in getting the LSE Appearance package. Whats CDC?

akirby · June 2002

Classic Design Concepts. They make the LSE kit for Lincoln. The LLSOC price is CONSIDERABLY less than what is shown on the website below.

http://www.classicdesignconcepts.com/catalog/Lincoln_LS/

leadfoot4 · June 2002

Eibach makes a spring package that lowers the car .8" in front and 1.1" in the rear.

ronniepooh · June 2002

Akirby. Thank you for the info. Has anyone compared CDC's LLSOC pricing against Ford Parts Networks discount on the original front fascia, side skirts, and rear under-bumper skirt?
And lastly, anyone had their window chrome blacked out like the photo on the CDC site? If so, how much?

stanny1 · June 2002

Now I know that I can spend way over $5000 on gingerbread and lowering, add weight and not add one iota of performance to my LS.
This is an easy way to convert my LS into a well heeled Honda Civic.
Don't forget the aluminum adjustable spoiler, the LED lights on the windshield wipers, the heavy replacement wheels that look good only.
Add the baseball cap worn backwards.
Actually, the hot trend is to use black painted steel wheels.
Sorry I'm so critical. I live in So Cal and I'm hit with this stuff everyday. I long to see a sharp, clean car that's a SLEEPER. Most of these "looks" modified cars here get tickets from blocking traffic from being too slow.
For $6000, I'd hope to get a supercharger or some serious modifications rendering real performance, instead of gingerbread that will eventually fall off and lose all its paint.
And if Eibach can show me a slolom test that shows an improvement in lap times or g's, bring it on!
And I thought the high-end audio industry had all the snake oil.

leadfoot4 · June 2002

I don't know if lowering my LS would make it corner a lot better, but I think it would at least look a little sleeker. IMHO, mine's got too much "fender gap".

lsv8 · June 2002

I finally broke down and replaced the factory speakers in my 2000 LS8 Sport.

I installed 4 Boston Acoustic FS80's and the difference was considerable. The stock Alpine system can be cranked fully without distortion (just a test -- not the normal cruising volume).

Even tho' these are not Boston's top-of-the-line, the system still delivers very crisp treble and rich bass (a good treble "test song" turned out to be "Being for the benefit of Mr. Kite" from the Pepper CD.)

Being that I spend 1.5 - 2 hrs/day commuting, this has turned out to be the best upgrade so far (Michelin Pilot Sport A/S's the second-best).

35K miles and NO problems outside of the rear-window replacement under warranty.

Love this car.

captdavid · June 2002

in your car you might want to consider XMSR - SDARS. I have it in my 2002 manual sport and I'm here to tell you it's the nuts!

heyjewel · June 2002

Hey, Stan;

Just wondering if you've looked into superchargers for our Duratechs?

George

cdnpinhead · June 2002

there's no accounting for taste, or the lack thereof.

I share your opinion. "Back in the day" the phrase was, "if it don't go, chrome it." I've pissed off any number of corporate poseurs with that phrase, once I explained it to them (they're usually quite young).

babylou · June 2002

stanny 1 said;

Sophisticated schmophisticated! Both the LS and Civic have double wishbone rear suspensions. Yes a double wishbone setup is the best for handling but it hardly can be considered sophisticated. The only reason it is not used in all cars is because it is a space hog and costs a bit more than a strut setup. Many cars now use muti-link setups that are more costly but more compact.

akirby · June 2002

Have you ever looked at the LS suspension? I didn't think so. It's made almost entirely out of aluminum and has anti-dive, anti-squat geometry built into the suspension itself - not accomplished through stiff springs or shocks. And it works. Just watch a LS do a panic stop compared to other cars - even other high performance sedans. It stays perfectly level. That was one of the things that impressed me the most on my test drive. It's also very expensive - not just from a parts standpoint (because of the aluminum) but from a R&D standpoint. It was tuned by F1 engineers and drivers on a race track. That's about as sophisticated as it gets on a normal production sedan.

stanny1 · June 2002

Wasn't it about two years ago that Honda changed backed to struts? I remember some flap in the mags about that as well as Honda freaks lamenting the loss of their multi-link set-up.
I'll have to go into "research mode" now.

ronniepooh · June 2002

I have a feeling the LSE parts (side skirts, replacement front bumper, and small lower rear fascia) cant add more than 15 lbs or so at most to the stock LS? The look would be noticeable but the added weight would have to be almost negligible in day to day performance and mpg.

ls1bmw0 · June 2002

The CDC kit replaces the stock parts, so the weight difference is nil. All it does is replace the front bumper cover. The remainder of the pieces replace the black rocker covers and the rear black lower piece on the rear cover.

For those of us with wider wheels and tires, this kit is functional since the front bumper cover now extends the front air dam outward to cover the frontal area of the tires and the side panels flair outward enough to lessen the impact of the wider tires for dirt.

Lowering the car by an inch decreases the center of gravity plus with the higher spring rate on the Eibachs also reduces the roll rate of the car. Doing just the springs won't increase cornering potential or transient response, but doing the dampers,springs and tires will.

P.S. Stan, I just installed the CDC kit on my car.

ezaircon4jc · June 2002

The LS also has passive 4 wheel steering. IIRC, a by-product of the anit-dive, anti-squat geometry.

lobsenza · June 2002

Could we see some pictures of the CDC kit

funkcity · June 2002

Well the 1 inch drop and the 18s or 19s (I am not quite in the 20s range yet)sure does look good.
I have read that the Jaguar engineers have been able to do custom alignments on the DEW suspension platform specifically because it lends itself to "tweaking".
That said, it would be good as part of the R&D thing to make a few non-stock adjustments after wheels shocks etc are added.
So Brian, now all you need to add is the Eibachs!
:-)

akonikua · June 2002

Can the CDC kit be installed on a non-sport ls? Also, I plan on dropping the car an inch for looks only! not to try to gain some competitive advantage as a racer...I don't even race...nor do I take 25mph corners at 60mph! . The actual question is what is the magnitutde of damage that is done by lowering the car? Does it decrease performance to the point where it is no longer worth it? Has anyone installed the Eibachs? As for 18-19 inch wheels...I get different opinions on this. Some claim that major rubbing will occur while others say go for it. So, how about a response somewhere between the conservative Lincoln engineer and the spontaneous daddy-will-pay-for-it teenager. Pics of the CDC kit would be cool too!

scottc8 · June 2002

Gee, I'm not sure we've met one of those yet. The last time we saw the Big Chief of LS engineering he was giving us a few lessons on an autocross course.:)

ronniepooh · June 2002

Dont tease us LS wanna-be modifiers like that. :-)As Big Kahuna, I think you know there are those of us who expect complete digital pics along with a detailed writeup on LLSOC of your LSE Kit installation project. How much did painting the parts cost you? Any plans to black out the chrome? Inquiring minds want to know. :-)

drolds1 · June 2002

Andy, go to http://www.classicdesignconcepts.com/catalog/itemdisplay/530.html.

They are offering significant discounts to LLSOC members.

akirby · June 2002

You don't take 25 mph corners at 60 mph?

I'm sorry, but your LS owner's privelege must be revoked. Please turn in your LS at your nearest dealer within 72 hours. A nice FWD appliance will be provided in the color of your choice. :-)

akirby · June 2002

Seriously, though. If you're talking about a plus 1 or plus 2 upgrade for the wheels where you keep the same overall diameter of the tires then clearance won't be an issue. I think you should do the 1-plus upgrade to 18" wheels (like the CDC LS) and add the body kit, then decide if it needs lowering or not. 19s would be overkill and ride like a go-cart IMO. The 18s will be noticeably harder as well. 17's will give the best ride since you're not into hi-g cornering. The CDC Bristol LS does not say anything about the suspension being lowered. It's also possible they used larger circumference 18" tires to fill up the wheel wells. Or lowered it and didn't list that in the modifications. Why don't you ask them if that's the look you're after? They can tell you whether what they did and whether or not it rubs.

akonikua · June 2002

I wrote CDC and they responded:

"Our LS-E package will work with a non-sport LS. However you would have to purchase the sport side marker lights for the front fascia from you dealer. The 18" LS rims were designed specifically for the Lincoln LS with regards to the offset to assure that rubbing does not occur. If you have any other questions, please contact us."

stanny1 · June 2002

If someone talks to CDC, please ask them what the offset is on the LS OZ wheels. I doubt it is over 42 mm. I think the width is only 7.5".

ls1bmw0 · June 2002

The CDC kit works on a non-sport. That's what mine is. You will need to get the sport side marker lights. The only reason I haven't put pictures up yet is because I trying to get the correct marker lights has been an exercise in frustration since Ford changed the part numbers and I kept getting the non-sport lights. Once I get the correct lights I'll post the pictures and the correct part numbers so you won't have to go through the problems I did and wind up with the wrong parts (twice).

The wheels that CDC has are excellent quality wheels. I have them in the 18x8.5 size and they have a 45mm offset. I'm using 255/40/18 tires and they do not rub. I doubt that you would be able to find a wheel of this quality for the price the LLSOC members pay. It's pretty much at cost. The wheels also are set up so that if you ever went to a big brake kit, there is enough clearance between the spokes and rim for the brake kit. Plus they look pretty good.

If anyone looks at the May newsletter for LLSOC, you can see the body kit on the picture of the two LSes by the sea. It's the one on the right.

Funny about Eibach's. I happen to have a set sitting in my garage at this very moment

Not the lowering ones though. These are Eibach's that are 10% stiffer than our stock springs and I wanted to add them to the project car to see what the ride difference was.

Brian

akonikua · June 2002

Brian, who installed the kit for you? I am in no position to do it myself. What would you suggest?

ls1bmw0 · June 2002

I installed it myself. It took about a day. The hardest part was the rear valance. You need a stubby 1/4 inch socket wrench with a phillips screwdriver socket to get to the 8 screws that hold the valance on. Outside of that you do need to get the parts painted as they come raw from the factory.

You can check with your dealer to find out how much it would cost to paint and install the thing. My dealer says that to paint the kit costs about $500-$600. To install it probably takes them about three hours or so. So you're probably at about a $1,000 for the painting and installation. That's why I did it myself (the installation not the painting.).

You can also check with a local body shop as well.

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