kelleyo--My LS is Charcol Green w/ med parchment leather, when clean it looks great but Calif. this time of the year tends to be dry and dusty plus I live out in the country and have a gravel driveway. My Calif. Duster gets a work out. On Aug.1 I was passed by another LS [black-non-sport]on HiWay50 between Placerville and Sacramento, he had a MB on his tail so I got in line and made a LS-MB-LS sandwich. We ran 80-85 for 10 or so miles before more traffic dictated slowing down, besides I kept seeing another pair of eyes looking at the speedometer, no noise just looks. This car is the most fun I have had since I built a sleeper about 10 years ago. I fitted a 65 MG-B with a 140 HP twin cam Toyota engine and 5 spd. trans. Twin mikuni carbs, cross flow head and 7200 RPM redline made for fun. 0-60 was in the hi 5-low 6 area, surprised quite a few. OG
Greetings, My 2002 V8 Sport first displayed the fogging problem around 18,000 miles. The car is garage kept and hand washed. Both headlights displayed the problem after a drive in the rain one day and later after a wash. The dealer would only replace one because by the time the car was taken in only one was still fogged. I wonder how long the dealer will keep replacing them if they are not sealed as another posted.
I'm going to try my luck with ebay and if it fogs up I just will have the dealer replace it. I have a 2001 with about 14,000 mile and knock on wud; they haven't fogged up yet and I go through high-pressure car washes and sometimes wash my car at the oddest of hours and tempatures. Thank you everyone for the help in the decision making.
I went ahead a bought the EBC Greenstuff front brake pads from Tire Rack because of its reviews and I'm going to perform the brake task pretty soon. You mentioned replaceing the brake fluid that you take out with the turkey baster with new fluid. Do you recommend any brake fluid brand or type in particular that is compatable with the O.E. fluid used in the car? And the lugs that hold the floating caliper on; what is the recommended ft/lbs of torque for each of them?
Not sure the torque specs since I usually use my Gen-1 torque wrench meter! (my arm). Which is probably pretty bad to do. I'll try to see if I have the specs. laying around, or one of the other guys might also have the numbers as well. If you aren't replacing all the fluid I'd stick with the O.E. fluid. Can't go wrong and it's pretty decent stufff.
If you are going to change the fluid I would suggest using ATE Super Blue- one of the top DOT 4 fluids. If you don't want to remove fluid from the reservoir you can loosen the bleeder screw before retracting the piston(s). Some people believe this procedure is best since it doesn't force old fluid from the caliper back up toward the master cylinder. I'm a strong proponent of changing fluid every two years(every six months if the car is tracked frequently). As the fluid absorbs water-and it will-the boiling point of the fluid drops. Drivers tend to discover this crucial fact at a most inopportune time, such as descending a steep grade or slowing from 100+ mph for a 45 mph corner...:p
What brake fluid type is O.E.? I never had to replenish it. I want to go out and buy enough brake fluid from the local auto store and as you know there are several differant types and brand labels to choose from. I just want to make the right decision. I think of gas the same way. I will either put BP/Amoco, Mobil, Sonoco, and maybe Shell in my car. All the others contain some additives and I rather have pure gasoline.
I don't know what the OEM fluid is, but DOT 4 fluids have higher wet and dry boiling points than DOT 3 fluids. DO NOT use any silicone(DOT 5) fluids, they aren't compatable with DOT 3 or 4. I would use ATE, BMW, or Castrol LMA. There are other DOT 4 fluids out there, but these three are ones that I have used with excellent street/track results. The added cost of DOT 4 over DOT 3 is negligible when the superiority of the DOT 4 specs are taken into consideration.
Is Dot 3 and Dot 4 completely compatable with one another were I can just fill what I need with Dot 4 and not worry or do I have to drain it all and start from scratch.
DOT 4 will mix with DOT 3. That said, you'll gain little if any benefit from topping up a DOT 3 system with a small amount of DOT 4. If you want the DOT 4 advantages you simply MUST change the fluid-preferably using a pressure bleeder. European manufacturers have mandated regular brake fluid changes for decades. US manufacturers have been slow to follow suit, probably for the reason I once heard a European auto engineer give:"Europeans don't care if their brakes squeal- just as long as they stop the car. Americans don't care if their brakes stop the car- just as long as they don't squeal."
Hi. My wife and I recently purchased a new LS V8 and we love it! Previous to our purchase, she didn't care what I wanted (assuming it was in our budget) but now that we got it, and she's driven it, she's been requesting to drive it more! As a good husband, I let her. My question is NOT how to deal with this but rather the following:
Should the first 500 miles or so of driving be treated with some care(i.e., not letting it rip) in order to let components settle in? Thanks.
If you saw the first time the engine fires up on the production line at Wixom on your LS, you'd cry! It's pedal to the metal and hold it there. Todays manufacturing tolerances don't require the same careful break in as in the old days. I wouldn't go mashing the brakes or burn rubber for the first couple of hundred of miles, although my trip home from the dealer 38,000 trouble free miles ago was at 142 mph! Ray Chartrand Charter member LLSOC
Years ago when I was in college, one of my roomates worked summers at the GM assembly plant in Framingham, MA (now closed I think). He loved to tell me how much fun the workers had blasting the cars off the end of the assembly line especially the hot ones. Kind of always made me chuckle to hear about the kind and easy break in new owners would give their cars after they've already been abused by the lot boys at the assembly plants and rail yards.
142 mph is a relative speed. Back in the 60's when you could order a car any way you wanted it I had a sleeper 69 Chevelle with a 350/350 that would do 140. I calculated the speed as the speedo only went to 120 and wound back to zero. That my friend was a scary ride. You would hold on for dear life and if you had to brake - forget it. The LS on the other hand feels comfortable at that speed - not a one arm over the seat back drive but not one to hold on for dear life either. I've driven a Winston Cup car at Texas Motor Speedway in the 160 range and again it wasn't hold on for dear life deal as the car and the track are built for that and much more. Would you believe there's at least one LS out there and don't ask - I can't tell that can do close to 180! Not your grandmas town car! Ray Chartrand Charter LLSOC member
thanks for the enjoyable message. i did a very controlled 100 mph today, and i agree on high speed comfort. very controlled. my car felt smooth and ready to accelerate. solid!
hopefully the 180 version comes with a bonus life insurance package!
If you're new to the LS, you have to understand its heritage to appreciate what you have. It handles like it does because the suspension guys are ex formula one chassis designers. The chief engineer is a genuine gear head who drives a cobra and the transmission god smells of tranny fluid. The LS was tested and developed from the frozen arctic to the high speed autobahns of Germany. The side glass was redesigned to keep out wind noise at high speeds. The car in their gun sights when developing the LS was the 5 series BMW. I'd say for a first edition and the difference in cost that it's an understated value. The car rags use meters and instruments but they probably never had 50 of themselves going one on one with the guys that designed the cars as we were fortunate enough to have in Wixom last year. Heck I'm ready to go back for another visit - how about it Lincoln? Ray Chartrand
Out here in the open West, I have cruised for 50-100 miles at a time at 100 MPH. This has been on roads where I see perhaps one other vehicle every 20-30 miles and where visibility to the sides is extremely open.
The LS is so quiet and steady at 100 MPH, it almost feels as though I'm sitting in my living room. Still, I realize things happen quickly at such speeds, and I am never complacent. I put myself on high alert, scanning far ahead and behind and checking visibility to the side. I don't want some big elk (or even a small javalina) to jump out into my path while I'm going that fast. If the visibility doesn't check out, I slow down.
I tend to limit myself to around 100, even though the car will easily go much faster. The problem is that there are few places where I am sufficiently sure no critters or other obstructions won't jump into my path inside my envelope of adequate warning so I can avoid them.
I was wondering how do I convert the regular shiftier gate into the SST? In other words, how do you take the regular shiftier off and reattach the SST?
Trust me here. I mean no ill will and am NOT trying to bait you or start an argument. Hey, as a fellow LS owner, "I love you, man"! You really should join LLSOC, if you haven't already. The club is a FANTASTIC resource for all things LS. That, and the access to the engineers that designed this wonderful automobile called the LS, make membership the best ownership experience.
There's nothing wrong with the transmissions. The 2000 models had some problems that were corrected with a software upgrade, and 2nd gear was a bit too short (long technical story) but that was fixed around September of last year. We've heard no complaints about the 2002 trannies. Like most autos, it isn't perfect (some shifts are slower than others, especially 2-3 and 3-2). But it depends on how sensitive you are whether you would even notice the difference.
As for build quality - yes, the 2000 models had several problems which have been corrected. Most were simply bad parts/designs and once they're fixed will not reoccur. Most were fixed by the 2001 model year with the big exception being the rear window regulators. They were finally replaced with a new metal part several months ago. The only remaining problem that hasn't been corrected (AFAIK) is a tendency for the headlamps to retain water after a high pressure wash. This only affects some cars every once in a while and is more of a nuisance than anything else. The 2002 LS's are relatively bulletproof. Very few, if any, TSB's have been issued in the last year or so. All of the negative reports and tests that you see were from the 2000 models.
You should not hesitate to buy one based on reliability concerns. Test drive it - if you like it, buy it. There are some very good incentives right now because the 2003 is due out in November.
i had a 68 chevelle with the 327/250 or 275 not sure, i bought it 2nd hand. it had the factory 4 speed with muncie shifter, on the floor. it had the bench seat and dual exhaust...so much fun, but anything over 80-90 was white knuckle time for me. what kind of a ratio did you have in the rear? jackg
I have an early build 2000 model and it's been rather trouble free, What model year are you looking at, so we might be able to help you sort the details. The later 2000 models had their own problems, compared to the 2001's. 2002 was pretty much trouble free, since all bugs had been worked out of the process by then. IMHO, all three Model Years are worthy of further inspection, as they are all worth owning.
My 69 Chevelle 350/350 as best as I can recall had 3:50 gears. I'd shift into 4th at over a 100! Meanwhile for todays's events. Just got back from a very long return trip to Austin. My daughter called at midnight last night to tell me her car had been trashed in the parking lot where she works. it was not driveable and stayed on the phone until her friends came to pick her up. I emailed an LLSOC member in Austin that I'd be in town but not for a social visit and I explained the situation. He asked where it had happened and wished me well. On the drive down today I received a call from another club member who had heard of the incident He wanted to get together for lunch. I explained my priorities were in getting my daughters car back together. He understood and said they had selected a restaurant just around the corner from where her car was. So I met 5 Austinites for lunch. It was good to see the crew again but my thoughts were on my daughters car. I excused myself and left early and to my amazement my lunch had been paid for. In addition, the boys stopped by to see if they could offer assistance in piecing things back together. One of the members offered me his garage and tools to finish the job off. Thanks Andy and John as well. You guys turned as depressing day into a " there still are nice people who help each other" day. I'll remember it for a long time. Now all you Dallas LS owners (Victor) it's time to meet our Austin compadres. Let's plan a late September get together. Ray Chartrand Charter LLSOC member and a believer in humanity after all!
Did you get the complete cat-back Magnaflow system or did you replace the mufflers? The reason I ask is because I would like to kind of know what it sounds like. I had custom work done under my car from the cat back I had custom fabricated Aluminized Steal 2.25" pipeing going into 2.5" Magnaflow(Aluminized)5x8 dual in, dual out(Magnaflow dosen't make it in 2.25" or for that matter any smaller than 2.5";) that muffler serves as a resonator and its internal design is an x-pipe(two perforated tubes "V" into 1 big perforated tube for about 2" and "V" back out into the oppisite perforated tubes) oh, also I had a beefy 2" cross pipe before the resonator("H" Pipe) fabricated on between the two pipes. After the resonator, it goes around the usual clearence bends but it is straighter that stock going into 2.25 magnaflow center in/center out 5x8 aluminized mufflers with turn-downs for the tips that come out and stop right were the exhaust cut-outs on the rear bottom valence. I wanted to go with the Stainless Steal versions but the muffler people I have talked too said that the stainless would last a little bit longer and the sound is more tin-can sounding plus, they cost about 50% more money. I think all together it sounds great and you can't see the tips unless you look for them by sticking your head under the car(Sleeper, Cool:) When I start my car in the mornings when the engine is cold it has a nice deep sound to it but most of the sound goes out the back muffler instead of under the car so it is not that loud from the inside vs. stock. When the engine warms up to normal operating temp it is a deep quite sound during idle, a deep mellow tone under acceleration, and aggresive but, conservative under WOT. I'm happy with the system I have and I was just wondering how yours sounds and what magnaflows muffs were used.
I have the complete cat/back system direct from MagnaFlow. It's a completely stainless steel system avaible only from LLSOC. It is guarenteed for life to the original owner. For pricing etc. get in touch with Brien Gowling.
It has a low rumble sound at idle & low speed. At higher speed it's a little harsher,but still sounds very nice.
It absolutely has added H. P. you can feel the difference at all R.P.M. espically the midrange.
It's a chore when I climb into my wife's LS-V8. I'm a bit larger than most @ 6'2"/220 but this is ridiculous. The seat needs to have a few more inches of aft travel.
is the seat adjusment correct, and is the memory adjusted to send the seat and steering column to end travel when you open the door? I'm also 6'2" tall, and have no problem at all in the LS.
I am about to change out the original equipment tires on my 00 V8. Can anyone out there tell me tire is being used as OE on the new LS's? Any suggestions for replacement? Thanks!
Paul I think it's the Michelin MXM4 - just like the Tbird. But I'm not 100% positive. Do you have the 17" or 16" wheels? What are your priorities (handling, comfort, price, etc.)?
Well, I don't have to hold my breath any longer.After 40,000 miles my rear side window finally crashed. Could someone please give me the TSB number for this repair? Was there a notice that both window assemblies are to be replaced by the dealer? Thanks for forthcoming help.
"please give me the TSB number for this repair? Was there a notice that both window assemblies are to be replaced by the dealer? Thanks for forthcoming help."
The answer to this, and TONS of other valuable info. is available to all LLSOC members on the LLSOC site.
The TSB is available at the NHTSA site, but you really won't need it. The dealers are painfully aware of the problem. And yes, both assemblies are supposed to be replaced.
Paul - I just checked the MXM4 and the treadwear rating is only 300, and the survey results are not very encouraging. The MXM4 costs $196 at tirerack. I have the Pilot Sport A/S ($212) and while they are extremely quiet, comfortable and great in the wet they also provide very good dry grip for the occasional off-ramp blast, and they have a treadwear rating of 400. Given that I think the Pilot Sport A/S would be a better choice. There are a lot of cheaper tires, especially in the high performance dept. but for quiet and smooth driving it's hard to beat Michelins. Unfortunately they aren't inexpensive but in this case I think you get what you pay for.
After reading that 'all cars should be able to run fine on regular gas.'
And that 'the only reason manufacturers recommend premium gas for cars is that that's what they used for EPA cert for that particular car (premium burns a little slower and a little cleaner).'
And that 'modern cars have knock sensors that will prevent knocking and pinging due to low octane gas.'
And noting the 20 cent diff per gallon (regular is *only* about $1.65 out here in California). I decided to switch to regular in my V6 Duratech 2001 LS.
I put about 14 gallons of 87 octane in to fill up a tank which of course had 91 in it from previous fill.
Bad idea.
Lots of pinging and knocking occurred and the performance suffered. So I went back to 91 octane quick as I could. And all is well again.
Any idea why the above theory does not seem to apply to the 210 HP Duratech?
Ok, time to dispel myths again. Premium fuel is required because of the high compression ratio. Higher compression ratios require higher octane to prevent pre-detonation. Higher compression ratios yield better performance because it allows the timing to be advanced among other things.
Using regular gas in an engine designed for Premium will result in timing being retarded to compensate which will reduce fuel economy and hurt performance at the same time. Anything you save on gas prices you'll lose with poorer fuel economy. There's only so much the engine mgt can compensate for, so you still run the risk of knocking even with anti-knock sensors, as George found out. Prolonged knocking will damage your engine.
Bottom line - if you can't get 91 octane you can safely run on slightly lower octane for short periods of time. But you should use 91 or better (or whatever the vehicle was designed for) whenever possible.
A couple of months ago with my wife using the LS for 7 day a week real estate sales, she started running 87 octane. After a month of using this stuff, I finally got the LS back for a couple of days. Performance was like someone had left the hand brake on. Gas mileage around town is normally 18-19 and it was down to 15 no matter how gently I drove. My wife now has an Accord and I'm back to 93 octane. Mileage jumped back to 19-20. I'll never run the lower octane again. Mea culpa! Ray Chartrand Charter member LLSOC
I often fill up with the Sunoco brand 94 octane gas (NW PA - despite the fuel prices - its usually not much more... $1.55/gallon) and really notice a difference over the 93 octane. My V6 just sings on the 94.
I filled up last week with 89 because the station I stopped at was out of 93 and I was on fumes.(fortunately we have 93 here). No pinging but I could notice a slight performance drop right away (temps in the low 80's). Today the temp is up into the high 90's and my LS-8 feels like I am dragging an anchor. That is performance seems to drop off more the hotter it gets especially with low octane.
We've been through this several times here on Edmunds and on LLSOC, but once again:
Assume you drive your LS 15,000 miles a year. Premium (93) is 20 cents / gal more than 87 Your LS will get .5 MPG better mileage with 93 vs. 87. (difference may be more like 1 MPG). Using premium will cost you $120 more / year. If you can't affort the $120 extra a year for gas, you shouldn't be driving a LS.
Consider that many people have no problem paying $1.25 a pint for bottled water which is $10.00 a gallon, but they [non-permissible content removed] incessently about paying $1.75 / gal for premium gas. Do you sense that some people's logic is a bit warped?
My 2000 Lincoln LS V8 sometimes bucks when I put it in reverse from park or drive. It doesn't do this all the time and seems to do this when I haven't driven it in a day.
Comments
On Aug.1 I was passed by another LS [black-non-sport]on HiWay50 between Placerville and Sacramento,
he had a MB on his tail so I got in line and made a LS-MB-LS sandwich. We ran 80-85 for 10 or so miles before more traffic dictated slowing down, besides I kept seeing another pair of eyes looking at the speedometer, no noise just looks.
This car is the most fun I have had since I built a sleeper about 10 years ago. I fitted a 65 MG-B with a 140 HP twin cam Toyota engine and 5 spd. trans. Twin mikuni carbs, cross flow head and 7200 RPM redline made for fun. 0-60 was in the hi 5-low 6 area, surprised quite a few.
OG
My 2002 V8 Sport first displayed the fogging problem around 18,000 miles. The car is garage kept and hand washed. Both headlights displayed the problem after a drive in the rain one day and later after a wash. The dealer would only replace one because by the time the car was taken in only one was still fogged. I wonder how long the dealer will keep replacing them if they are not sealed as another posted.
The water gets in and can't get out. I have got to imagine that the e-bay stuff is all the take-offs from the other cars.
Although no one has done it, it might be good to try drilling vent holes so that the moisture can get out and the dry air in.
Should the first 500 miles or so of driving be treated with some care(i.e., not letting it rip) in order to let components settle in? Thanks.
Todays manufacturing tolerances don't require the same careful break in as in the old days. I wouldn't go mashing the brakes or burn rubber for the first couple of hundred of miles, although my trip home from the dealer 38,000 trouble free miles ago was at 142 mph!
Ray Chartrand
Charter member LLSOC
142 is absolutely nuts but i like it! they don't have the speedometer go up to 160 for nothing.
Dan
Would you believe there's at least one LS out there and don't ask - I can't tell that can do close to 180! Not your grandmas town car!
Ray Chartrand
Charter LLSOC member
thanks for the enjoyable message. i did a very controlled 100 mph today, and i agree on high speed comfort. very controlled. my car felt smooth and ready to accelerate. solid!
hopefully the 180 version comes with a bonus life insurance package!
Heck I'm ready to go back for another visit - how about it Lincoln?
Ray Chartrand
The LS is so quiet and steady at 100 MPH, it almost feels as though I'm sitting in my living room. Still, I realize things happen quickly at such speeds, and I am never complacent. I put myself on high alert, scanning far ahead and behind and checking visibility to the side. I don't want some big elk (or even a small javalina) to jump out into my path while I'm going that fast. If the visibility doesn't check out, I slow down.
I tend to limit myself to around 100, even though the car will easily go much faster. The problem is that there are few places where I am sufficiently sure no critters or other obstructions won't jump into my path inside my envelope of adequate warning so I can avoid them.
Glanced at the speedo...whoa!...truly an aim and stab situation now.
LLSOC members can access it on the LLSOS site under "Communications" > "Magazine"
because i hear that the transmission isn't as good as expected, questionable build quality.
I really need advice.
Thank you
As for build quality - yes, the 2000 models had several problems which have been corrected. Most were simply bad parts/designs and once they're fixed will not reoccur. Most were fixed by the 2001 model year with the big exception being the rear window regulators. They were finally replaced with a new metal part several months ago. The only remaining problem that hasn't been corrected (AFAIK) is a tendency for the headlamps to retain water after a high pressure wash. This only affects some cars every once in a while and is more of a nuisance than anything else. The 2002 LS's are relatively bulletproof. Very few, if any, TSB's have been issued in the last year or so. All of the negative reports and tests that you see were from the 2000 models.
You should not hesitate to buy one based on reliability concerns. Test drive it - if you like it, buy it. There are some very good incentives right now because the 2003 is due out in November.
speed with muncie shifter, on the floor. it had the bench seat and dual exhaust...so much fun, but
anything over 80-90 was white knuckle time for me.
what kind of a ratio did you have in the rear? jackg
Meanwhile for todays's events. Just got back from a very long return trip to Austin. My daughter called at midnight last night to tell me her car had been trashed in the parking lot where she works. it was not driveable and stayed on the phone until her friends came to pick her up.
I emailed an LLSOC member in Austin that I'd be in town but not for a social visit and I explained the situation. He asked where it had happened and wished me well. On the drive down today I received a call from another club member who had heard of the incident He wanted to get together for lunch. I explained my priorities were in getting my daughters car back together. He understood and said they had selected a restaurant just around the corner from where her car was. So I met 5 Austinites for lunch. It was good to see the crew again but my thoughts were on my daughters car. I excused myself and left early and to my amazement my lunch had been paid for. In addition, the boys stopped by to see if they could offer assistance in piecing things back together. One of the members offered me his garage and tools to finish the job off. Thanks Andy and John as well. You guys turned as depressing day into a " there still are nice people who help each other" day.
I'll remember it for a long time.
Now all you Dallas LS owners (Victor) it's time to meet our Austin compadres. Let's plan a late September get together.
Ray Chartrand
Charter LLSOC member and a believer in humanity after all!
I love my MagnaFlows!
See you around!
Topcat55
It has a low rumble sound at idle & low speed. At higher speed it's a little harsher,but still sounds very nice.
It absolutely has added H. P. you can feel the difference at all R.P.M. espically the midrange.
To me they rate a big 10 !
Ed
I can't wait to climb out of the thing.
I think it's the Michelin MXM4 - just like the Tbird. But I'm not 100% positive.
Do you have the 17" or 16" wheels? What are your priorities (handling, comfort, price, etc.)?
The answer to this, and TONS of other valuable info. is available to all LLSOC members on the LLSOC site.
And that 'the only reason manufacturers recommend premium gas for cars is that that's what they used for EPA cert for that particular car (premium burns a little slower and a little cleaner).'
And that 'modern cars have knock sensors that will prevent knocking and pinging due to low octane gas.'
And noting the 20 cent diff per gallon (regular is *only* about $1.65 out here in California). I decided to switch to regular in my V6 Duratech 2001 LS.
I put about 14 gallons of 87 octane in to fill up a tank which of course had 91 in it from previous fill.
Bad idea.
Lots of pinging and knocking occurred and the performance suffered. So I went back to 91 octane quick as I could. And all is well again.
Any idea why the above theory does not seem to apply to the 210 HP Duratech?
George
Using regular gas in an engine designed for Premium will result in timing being retarded to compensate which will reduce fuel economy and hurt performance at the same time. Anything you save on gas prices you'll lose with poorer fuel economy. There's only so much the engine mgt can compensate for, so you still run the risk of knocking even with anti-knock sensors, as George found out. Prolonged knocking will damage your engine.
Bottom line - if you can't get 91 octane you can safely run on slightly lower octane for short periods of time. But you should use 91 or better (or whatever the vehicle was designed for) whenever possible.
Mike
LLSOC Charter Member
My wife now has an Accord and I'm back to 93 octane. Mileage jumped back to 19-20. I'll never run the lower octane again.
Mea culpa!
Ray Chartrand
Charter member LLSOC
We've been through this several times here on Edmunds and on LLSOC, but once again:
Assume you drive your LS 15,000 miles a year.
Premium (93) is 20 cents / gal more than 87
Your LS will get .5 MPG better mileage with 93 vs. 87. (difference may be more like 1 MPG).
Using premium will cost you $120 more / year.
If you can't affort the $120 extra a year for gas, you shouldn't be driving a LS.
Consider that many people have no problem paying $1.25 a pint for bottled water which is $10.00 a gallon, but they [non-permissible content removed] incessently about paying $1.75 / gal for premium gas. Do you sense that some people's logic is a bit warped?