Gee, I can pay almost $60k for a Mclaren that does 0-60 in the same time as a $27k G35. Or I can buy a 540i, maybe even a 540i-6. Now what's the better value? It's not the Mclaren! Next year the CTS will have a new GM "Hot-Rod" V-6. The only game in town will be 04 CTS Manual vs. G35 Manual. BMW has a problem!
"Gee, I can pay almost $60k for a Mclaren that does 0-60 in the same time as a $27k G35."
Actually, when the G35 Coupe debuts at the dealers in November, the 0-60 (yeah, I know, 0-60 aint everything, but face it...it is a significant benchmark of performance) will probably be better...the latest estimates for 0-60 in the 275+hp G35 Coupe with 6-speed is around 5.7 seconds...the torque band in the VQ engine is kinda high, and will prolly be better suited with a true manual transmission)
Im sure the Mclaren LS will be nice, especially when combined the the 2003 improvements. The size is also a plus.
But, how will resale be on an aftermarket modified car? Curious how previous iterations of vehicles like this have held up resale wise? For now, Im going to continue to enjoy my "old" 2000 LS V6 Sport.
But to be on the safe side, I did drop a fully refundable deposit on a 2003 G35 Coupe. ;-)
I'm guessing that anybody wanting a manual trans in a car like the LS reads at least one of the more popular auto magazines, or would at least take the time to read the Lincoln sales literature before a) resort to buying an automatic LS or b) going down the street to buy a manual car from the competition.
So, how exactly was Lincoln keeping the manual secret? Because a few salesman didn't know or didn't push it? Doubt it.
(However, I will agree that not stocking one for a test drive probably impacted sales.)
Haven't we been saying all the while that a typical car nut walks into a dealership and knows more about a particular model than the salesperson? So, are we to believe that the typical LS buyer, who loves driving and wants a performance sports sedan, didn't know that a manual was available?
Again guessing, manual LS's didn't sell because most performance oriented drivers want the bigger engine/manual combination, not the smaller engine/manual.
That's where Lincoln blew it.
As for the new hotrod Lincoln, at that price, specialized dealer support, and a resale value that will most likely drop like a rock (how many used LS McLaren's will be advertised as "driven by little old ladies only on Sunday"), I don't see a big future for the car. Supply could equal demand, depending what supply actually is.
(Mercury claimed 15,000 Marauders will be built, and now dealerships in North Jersey have many sitting on their lots. One dealer has five.)
Makes good press, though. (Similar to a tire burning, 0-60 in 6.5 seconds, "return of the musclecar" full size sedan.)
I'm well aware of what options are listed on Mclaren's Website. The McLaren LS at the show had a six speed manual. I'm just stating the facts that were given to us LLSOC members, by the two gentleman representing McLaren at the show. They stated that Lincoln dealers did not want any manuals produced. This is what we were told at the show and that is a fact. As I stated in my last post, things could have changed since the NY Auto Show, but the point I wanted to make is the dealers are a good part of the problem in this situation.
I agree with most of the McLaren comments. However:
G35 - cheap 4 door sedan with a great engine/tranny combo. Not a luxury sedan in my book and not a direct competitor to the LS. It's also faster than a 740i or E-class but they are not competitors.
The 350 hp and 6.2 second 0-60 times were based on the 2002 252 hp LS prototype. The 2003 V8 LS will do 0-60 in the mid 6's (by C&D testing standards) with 280 hp @ 4K rpm with a 3.58 rear gear. The blower and intake/exhaust package adds 100 hp to that for 380 while retaining the 3.58 rear. That should push the auto McLaren into the upper 5 second range, and even faster with the 6-speed manual if it's offered. llsoc.com hosted the Mclaren folks for a conference call recently so I'm sure someone who listened can comment on the manual availability.
Another car looking for a market. Four speed automatic and not enough hp again. Makes you wonder: Why do most of the Ford engines put out less than the competition? It's almost uniform compared with the GM engines in HP per cubic inch, especially in the truck lines, and the GM engines are almost all old non-cross-flow, two valve pushrod types. Ford engines are almost all OHC. I know that 4 valves put out less torque at lower rpms, but that doesn't account for the two-valve to two-valve comparisons using the base 4.6 and 5.4 liter Romeos. Is it conservative cam timing and lift? Combustion chamber design for emissions? Curious minds want to know. Look at the Corvette. 405 hp out of a modified LT-1 1955 design. No VVT. Pushrods. No tricks like individual throttles and double Vanos on an M3. Maybe Ford needs more sophistication in engine design. Hey, you M.E. types, what gives?
"[The] manual LS's didn't sell because most performance oriented drivers want the bigger engine/manual combination, not the smaller engine/manual. That's where Lincoln blew it."
I RELUCTANTLY accepted the V6 ONLY because there was no V8 manual. Had one existed it may just have made me forget about that M5 my heart was set on. IF, and that is indeed a big IF, Lincoln had produced the V8 manual I firmly believe sales would be double what we see now. I know I would have jumped on that opportunity. But alas . . . Lincoln DID just plain blow it. I know the Lincoln LS personnel are totally committed to the car so it must have been some SUIT who isn't a car guy/gay that pulled the plug. Obviously this pathetic individual knows nothing about driving enthusiasts. And to think that this individual somehow made it into upper management, WOW!
Regarding the Mclaren, although it will be a great product at that price I would not be looking at it, but rather either the BMW 540i or the Jag S-Type R (which is more luxurious), but not the McLaren. Long story short: I don't think there will be many McLaren LSes around. Better products in class and several that are similar at a much lesser price.
Having listened in on the McLaren/LLSOC conference call about 2 months ago, I got the distinct impression that the 6-speed manual would be available for '03 LS. The 6-speed manual would NOT be available for the '00 - '02 LS, so perhaps Tom, that may explain things.
I also got the impression that McLaren will price their product "appropriately", which to me, means that nothing is cast in stone yet. Rants to the effect that the car will cost up $60K just aren't reasonable. Lincoln and McLaren know that the LS needs to represent a "value" price point relative to their competition. The McLaren LS is aimed to compete with the BMW 540/M5. . . depending upon how much performance they can wring out (which, I believe should fall somewhere in between the two).
Tom, good to see you back here. I don't recall them saying anything at the NY auto show about lack of the 6-speed manual. I know we had separate converstions, but I got the impression that the manual was their primary focus. Steve Rossi told me that they didn't even want to do an automatic at all, but that the marketplace called for it. The automatic will probably be 25 HP less than the MTX version. The conference call that we had with them reiterated this.
As to who's going to buy it when there's 540i's, etc. at this price, resale value, etc., we're talking about a few hundred cars here in the total production run. Lincoln probably makes this many LSes in a few days. I spoke to Steve Rossi on this very issue. He told me that there are always customers that want something different and/or exclusive; that there are BMW owners who will buy it just because it ISN'T a BMW. Frankly, they're expecting a good number of customers that do not currently own an LS. Steve is a pretty savvy marketing guy, so I'll take him at his word right now and assume he knows what he's talking about. There are people paying 50K and up for fully tricked-out aftermarket Mustangs too. Would you pay that much for a Mustang? Neither would I, but there seems to be enough of a market to sustain all the tuners.
As to the service issues, where do Ferarri, Aston-Martin, Lotus, etc. owners get these low-vloume cars serviced? There will be 100 carefully selected Lincoln dealers handling the car. You probably have a better shot at getting it serviced than a Porsche owner on a road trip.
JerryM3 wrote: (Mercury claimed 15,000 Marauders will be built, and now dealerships in North Jersey have many sitting on their lots. One dealer has five.)
I dont know about northern NJ, but the Marauder is selling quite well. Mercury had over 85,000 inquries before the car was introduced. My own dealer had already sold 6 by April, 3 months prior to the introduction date. This is from Reuters on July 1:
"Mercury Marauder Rockets Up Sales Charts - Even Before It Goes on Sale
IRVINE, Calif., July 1 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The all-new 2003 Mercury Marauder is off to a high-speed start, as more than 5,200 vehicles were pre-sold to customers prior to the first vehicle being delivered to dealers' showrooms..."
"G35 - cheap 4 door sedan with a great engine/tranny combo. Not a luxury sedan in my book and not a direct competitor to the LS."
I tend to agree that the G35 is not a direct competetior to the LS, but I also thought the 3-series BMW wasnt a direct competetior to the LS, but all the car industry/mags seemed to think otherwise. I assume that the 2003 LS's will still be considered "near luxury", in which case, the 3 series BMW and the G35 will prolly be compared head to head with the LS in fall/winter car mag reviews.
Also agree with Stanny...any reason why Ford seems to lag YEARS behind the comp in engines? 230hp from the 2003 LS V6 is NOT "amongst the most powerful 6 cylinders on the market". Who they foolin'? Hello?? Anyone ever heard of the engine in the Acura TL-S? In the Max? Heck, in 1995...1995...7 years ago...BMW got 240hp, and more importantly, over 300ft/lbs of torque out of a naturally aspirated 3.0 liter engine in their E36 M3. BMW's V8 been puttin out 282hp since 1995 (1996?) as well.
At some point, Ford needs to BEAT the competetion, not just attempt to keep up.
I have a few moments between sand packs, so let me offer my .02 worth.
From my memory of what we were told by the McLaren people, the six speed would be available as the stage III package, available with both of the other packages only. However, it was confirmed that most likely, the dealers wouldn't order one for their floors, so the six speed would be a special order item.
Steve Rossi confirmed what has been stated earlier, that the Lincoln dealers are reluctant to stock a manual transmission car, regardless of what car it is in.
So, in a sense, everybody is correct. The manual McLaren will be a very rare bird, most dealers won't stock one so it will get little public exposure. It will be available, but try taking one for a test drive from your local dealer.
Uh-oh, sand truck just arrived. I've got to get back to work.
Just checked the local inventory of five dealers in the Bergen/Hudson County NJ area. Per dealer (MMs in stock)
0, 1, 2, 2, 10 (I don't think the zero dealer has ever had one, and the 10 is not a typo.)
First third went quick based on advance advertising claims; next 2/3s may be a little more difficult.
When first announced, I could not get the Ford Z plan price on a Marauder; some dealers wanted MSRP plus; now, three dealers are offering me the Z plan discount and sending me emails to come on down and test drive one.
Tommorow at 7:00 P.M. there will be an LS Owners get together in Addison at 7 P.M. Just a get together to talk about the LS and have a few beverages, some great Burgers and Cheddar Fries.
If you are interested and are in the DFW Metroplex area drop on by:
this is probably a useless endeavor, but here goes: i am considering the ls with the v6/manual drivetrain but cannot find a local dealer that has any to sample. does anyone know who i can contact within ford to try and put some pressure or grease some wheels to get a demo delivered to a local dealer so i can take a test drive? jackg
I usually agree with most of your views, but the 405 HP Corvete engine comment is off base. The original small block Chev was indeed first issued in 1955, but the current 405HP, LS-6 'Vette engine was freshly minted in 1997. Yes, it's still an OHV, pushrod design, but it was all new at the outset. NOTHING interchanges with the previous engines, but 405 HP from 346 cu.in....Ain't that sweet??
Well, when I was buying my LS the dealer did have a 5 speed in stock. The test drive was, shall we say, less than enthralling...for me. I was looking for much more low end torque...which no stock LS offered. At legal speeds, I felt little if any difference between the V6 and the V8, so I went with the 6 and put four grand back in my pocket.
I very much enjoy my LS, and some of this tread reminds me of the saying: "When you put lipstick on a pig...all you get is a red lipped pig." No, I'm not saying the LS is a pig--far from it. It's just that while many of us have an emotional attachment to the LS, dropping 15 or 20 grand into it, hoping to make it something it isn't is, IMHO, both silly and a lousy financial move. Now if you've got $15K to burn, you have to be different, you like to play, and this is a diversion...a hobby, then that's another story.
Otherwise, look at the factory Jag S Type R, with 420bhp, for about $60K. Or one of those BMWs which, by choice, I know nothing about. Finding stick shift S Type Jags, or stick shift LS McLarens when they are available, will be a challenge. If you absolutely have to have one, wait to buy used and save $15K. BTW, the six location local Lincoln dealership tells me they want no part of being a "select" McLaren representative. If you really "feel the need for speed" buy a used Porsche 996...and you'll have a real sports car.
Last thought....Ford/Lincoln marketing and advertising are their own worst enemy. First they do a terrible job getting the LS message out, then they are painfully slow to improve the breed, and then they put factory high performance options on the higher end Jag S Type. They would sell a lot more hot rod Lincolns than hot rod Jags.
Email me at:brian.gowing@llsoc.com with your location and information and I'll find out if there are any manuals in your area or where we can get you one to test drive.
Power is a relative thing. And Yes I tow a boat with a BB Suburban rather that the overweight and underpowered Excursion. So yes Ford does not get this "Power Thing". The Jag S-Type always seems to have more HP than the LS. I mentioned this at Mania 3 and did not get much of a response.(ie: GM always saved the max horsepower for the Corvette only.Does Ford also have some inside official power mandate?)
The new 03 LS might be very interesting however with new power and torque drive-by-wire, VVT and the new axle ratio. With all new control software hopefully pulling all this together, the possibilities are there. So all may not be as bleak as advertised on some of these posts. :-)
Usually Automotive News offers info about change over dates, but I have not read of any yet. Does anybody have a spy shot of the rear? That's my hang up with current model since inception.
New Autoweek (7/29) has interesting article on page 5 entitled "Flies on the Wallpaper - Carmakers catch buzz while camping out on enthusiast websites". It's all about car companies lurking on enthusiast sites but no mention of Edmund's by name. Nissan, VW, Mazda, and Lincoln LS were cars/companies mentioned. Main thrust is about a company employed by Lincoln and other car companies to monitor enthusiast web sites and report findings to them. This company is called Intelliseek. Pertinent to the LS, Intelliseek did a project for Lincoln that found that the top complaint of LS owners was a lack of trunk space. People who didn't buy the LS said the same thing. To think that Lincoln paid Intelliseek for this lame piece of information is beyond me. Lack of trunk space is a topic I haven't heard much about on Edmund's or the LLSOC sites. It's clear Intelliseek is not monitoring relevant LS sites. At least not "LS enthusiast sites". Duh. They should just pay Brian for a monthly summation/opinion. It's clear that either Lincoln brass or we "enthusiasts" live in an encapsulated vacuum. Hello out there! It's 2 AM here on the Left Coast. Pardon me - I have to go and check out my trunk space. I must have missed something when I bought my car. I must have been preoccupied by the massive torque of my engine, and the resulting whiplash from the test drive caused me to overlook the critical trunk area. In my dazed state, I signed my lease contract, completely ignoring this much more important feature (or lack of) of my car. I should have compared trunk space of competing vehicles and looked much more closely at the Town Car. This also means that everything we "enthusiasts" have talked about for the past two years is merely mental masturbation. Intelliseek has found the Holy Grail, the true essence of the LS experience and it is a trunk fetish. My apologies to all my LS brethren if I have mentioned any other possible factors that may have gone into a consumer's decision to purchase an LS. I was totally off topic. I too often drifted wrongly into diatribes about insignificant mechanical aspects of the LS. Trunk space, not 0-60, is what true "enthusiasts" talk about on "enthusiast" LS websites. This is what Lincoln was told and Lincoln paid good money to experts for this data. Does the 03 have a bigger trunk? This just adds to my feelings of inadequacy.
Biggest problem with these internet scanner programs like Intelliseek is that they can't get into private sites like LLSOC. Which is by design, by the way. I'm not about to jeopardize club member's privacy and discussion topics with an uninvited and unannounced software package.
Don't you think the lack of trunk space comment is just another way of saying intrusive trunk hinges (ITH) ? I would say that discussion took up a lot of room on this board.
"Improved V-6 is now among the most powerful normally aspirated 3.0-liter engines on the market today"
Please note the "among" and "3.0-liter" qualifiers. The Acrua & Nissan engines are larger in displacement On the other hand, you are right this is called "marketing spin".
GM SB-2: One of the primary drivers for the GM Small Block 2 engine was that GM was getting their rear ends kicked with their 1954 origin NASCAR engine by Ford's 1969 origin "Cleveland" NASCAR engine. So it was time to update a classic and fix a bunch of things that couldn't be done without an almost clean sheet of paper.
I give GM credit for actually putting an engine into cars they currently sell that is related to what they race. Ford quit selling "Cleveland" engines in the US the 1970's and shipped all the tooling to Australia where the beloved Clevelands were relegated to truck service. The Ford race engine is just that, a race engine as nothing even remotely similar to it has been sold in the US by Ford in many, many years. With rear wheel drive race car Monte Carlos, Intrepids and Taurus's, I propose that NASCAR change the "Stock" in their name to "Silloette".
Lolaj42: Please do not accuse me of "Lincoln Bashing" I admire Lincoln for making the V-6MTX in the fist place, but from the day it was intoduced I knew it was doomed. Going against the MTX LS was:
1. Decision to not sell the LS in Europe. As jhoffmann correctly points out, without European MTX sales there would not be MTX 540's, 740's, A6's etc. Once the decision was made not to sell the LS Europe, I knew it was only a matter of time before the LS MTX went away.
2. The LS is simply not in the size, weight and price class where MTX's will sell in the US.
3. Crippling the LS V6. If the Jag 240 HP V-6 had been available from day 1, there may have been enough US customers to keep the MTX V-6 alive. US MTX customers are looking for performance not economy.
4. Not offering a V-8 MTX - see item #3.
5. Dealers. As I said before, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Dealers are business people, not crusaders for automotive dreams. The MTX LS was a risk that complicated their lives.
6. The shakeup in PAG and the decision to not make over Lincoln as a Euro-fighter brand.
Now here is the real questions:
What are the current CTS sales? How many MTX CTS's have been sold? (I bet it's lower than you think?)
To put cdpinhead's comment in the right perspective, if everyone was satisfied with the status quo, we'd still be making trips to the outhouse. I don't think anyone was "Lincoln bashing" Merely expressing strong dissappointment in the death of the MTX LS, pointing out (in our opinions) what Lincoln did wrong and expressing a sincere desire to see a better product from Lincoln.
Stanny: Trunk space. I am guilty as charged. I have posted on Edmunds 3 times over the last 2-1/2 years that I would like a little more trunk space in my LS. See it once, could be a fluke, See it twice, maybe there is something to it. See it 3 time, must be a critical problem.
'03 LS availablity: Job 1 date is supposed to be November 15, so it will be mid December before you see the first LS's on the dealer lots in most places.
Lack of Ford HP: Stanny: I'm convinced that Ford can make great engines. The current situation with Ford behind the curve in the HP wars I think is simply a result of bad judgement by marketing and the product planners. The people at Ford who need to decide years ahead of time what needs to be in and on a vehicle got caught with their pants down as the rest of the industry rediscovered Horespower. Playing catch up is now hampered by Ford's financial mess. Bottom line it's called "Bad Management". Ford management has been shaken and shuffled and I think the top guys know where they stand and what needs to be done. It's now a matter of getting the job done with the available resources. The '03 LS V8 certainly looks like a big step forward.
I agree with each of your points regarding the demise of the MTX. I have no trouble with complaints to the effect that an existing model/feature will no longer be available going forward. Clearly, there is a "halo" effect that the MTX brings to the LS . . . purely for the benefit of performance oriented driver.
However, my point has always been that Lincoln has gone out of their way to ensure MTX availability for the '03 LS . . . they partnered with McLaren. They didn't have to. Sure the MTX option will cost alot more in this form, but at least it's available (with loads of other good stuff as well). The multiple posts critical of Lincoln for abandoning the MTX weren't correct and, in my mind, were nothing short of bashing.
Further, considering the number of LS6 manuals sold, it's no wonder that it was discontinued in '03, and I'm sure Lincoln viewed the deal with McLaren to be far more cost effective than offering a MTX on the LS8. The number of MTXs sold clearly showed the American Consumer's preference for automatics (SST included, which, to me, is a very good compromise for a MTX). Why should Lincoln continue to subsidize the MTX option?
No automatic (SST, etc.) is "a very good comprimise for a MTX". For the true enthusiast, a manual still is comprised of a working clutch pedal and "H" gated shifter. The newer SMG type transmissions do come a lot closer (clutch, but no pedal), but you either have an MTX option or you don't.
The SST transmission provides for NEARLY the same level of control that the traditional, H-gated manual does. With the exception of the 4th (or higher gear) downshift directly into 2nd gear without going through 3rd gear, the SST can do it.
I've said this many times before, I've owned and/or driven a manual transmission for my entire adult life (no comments please) and if someone wants to question my status as an "enthusiast", well, them thar's fightin' words! The SST transmission provides me with nearly all the control that a traditional H-gated manual provides, plus it gives me the option of "resting" my left foot and allowing me to keep BOTH hands on the wheel when going through mountain switch backs at HIGHER than posted speed limits.
cb44 - get off the "true enthusiast" bent and sell it somewhere else!
Well, the 351 Cleveland was used for more than trucks in Australia. The cars in Mad Max, the yellow interceptor and black interceptor, were Falcon XB or some such cars, made by Ford, and they had 351 Clevelands in them. In fact, the sport model of the car came with 4v heads back in the 70's in Australia from what I can determine. Pretty cool.
A shame we got stuck with the 351 Windsor instead though.
Also, the car the Nightrider drives in the beginning chase in Mad Max is a Holden, an Aussie GM. Interesting that GM is importing the Holden Monaro as their new GTO.
Now I just have to figure out how to get a Weiand blower sticking out of my LS hood...;-)
JS LLSOC Charter Member 2000 LS V8 Sport, 2 years old and still going strong.
Since you asked, Auto News pegs CTS manual sales at 8%. The CTSi coming out next year (and with positive mentions on autoextremist.com this week btw) will be available with manual only at least at first with the goal of boosting manual sales to 10%. See:
To me the Lincoln LS's problems are not with the lack of a manual transmission, which I tend to agree is sort of a marketing gimmick/niche product. But it is the bland exterior styling. I think the LS looks too much like a mini-Continental. There just isn't much distinctive about the car.
Speaking of the Continental, with the last of those rolling off the assembly line, Lincoln is down to what, only 2 cars? LS sales are well off their peak, but still decent at around 3K/month. 90% of the Town Car's I see are livery vehicles. What is the percentage of fleet sales for that model? It looks like for better or worse, the LS is going to be the standard bearer for the Lincoln brand in the auto market next year.
My first car was a 1956 Volvo with a 4-spd. I then moved up to a 1965 (actually a 64 1/2) Mustang 289/4bbl/4-spd. My other 3 MTX cars were a 76 and 77 Plymouth Arrow and a 78 Plymouth Sapporo. My son now owns an 87 Mustang with a 5-spd. I do know my way around shifting and tend to enjoy it. I just got back from 2 weeks of enjoyable driving. I made 2 trips on Hwy 1 between San Simeon and Big Sur, drove around San Francisco and up and around Lake Tahoe. I used my self-installed SST extensively! After careful thought, I prefer the SST. My left foot was needed, planted firmly on the dead pedal, to keep me postioned in my seat! My only "mistake" was twice "shifting" down in MTX fashion to upshift to 4th and getting 2nd . To me the SST is a very nice compromise and that may be why manual sales are so low. Apparently many other buyers feel the same. Doesn't Ferrari, or one of the other hi-po makers, now use a clutchless auto/manual? I can't imagine trying to negotiate the hills in SFO with a manual. Since installing the SST I no longer crave the manual. I know that is a heritical statement to die-hard MTX folks, but it seems that sales are on my side. In 1978 I said I'd NEVER own an automatic again. Maybe it's age or maybe the SST just accomplishes my shifting desires.
folks who attended LS Mania, who were sworn to secrecy about the changes upcoming in the LS...now that the 03 LS specs have been publicized, are the published changes the same as what they told you months ago???...also, were you just TOLD about the changes, or did they SHOW you the changes on a preproduction model, and, if yes, do the changes solve the "problems" that many LS owners complained about...in essence, did Lincoln actually listen to you folks complain and do something about it, or was it all lip service???...(by the way, to the person who complained that the LS looks like a mini continental, is that so bad???...I really liked the looks of the Conti that just just killed this year)...
The '03 LS information was released in error--a Ford PR screwup--and wasn't supposed to be available until August 27. (The info has been removed from the Ford media website.) As such, the club members who attended Mania 3 won't discuss what they saw & did until the '03 info is (re)released on August 27. That may sound silly, but what's REALLY silly is the fact that someone at Ford made such a boneheaded mistake.
Even though the information was inadvertently released by Ford, LLSOC members are honor-bound to keep the agreement they made to not publicly discuss what they know; hope you understand. (I didn't attend Mania 3, so I felt it was easier for me to respond here than for club members who did attend.)
I perfectly understand...lawyers have ethics (no snickering from the peanut gallery, please) and I understand your point...while I read the post that said Aug 27, I figured that since it was made public, Ford would run with it...if they have retracted it, then I respect those who have benn sworn until a date certain...hey, guys, remember my post, so when your sworn secrecy ends, and the info is properly made public, you can answer...I was not attempting to circumvent rules, just that when the info was made public, kinda hard for Ford to pretend it does not exist..
marsha7: Not being a Mania III attendee, I was told nothing and made no promises either, since I don't know anything in the first place.
However, I did view the fordmedia.com info on the '03 LS before it was pulled. As I previously posted, it appears that the Lincoln engineers gave us 90% of the things we asked for plus several slick things we never thought of. There are a couple of things we didn't get, but there are valid engineering / manufacturing reasons why they couldn't do them for '03.
All in all (aside from all the MTX whining) the '03 LS is a significant improvement. The decision as to whether to buy a '02 leftover at the current bargain basement prices or wait for the '03's and pay significantly more will have to be made on an individual basis.
swauger, yes I realize that the Clevelands were used in Aussie cars too (lucky them!). My Aussie truck reference was because for a number of years the Nascar engines were based on the Aussie truck block which supposedly had slightly thicker walls. Today, everything is special cast and machined for the race engines. The Cleveland is one sweet good looking engine (still have one with my '72 Torino). The biggest problem with using them for race engines was to fix the oiling problems, that is making sure the right amount of oil got to all the critical parts of the engine, especially at sustained high RPM's.
When Ford dumped the Cleveland in the US the excuse given was that it would be too costly to make it meet the new emissions requirements. Personally, I think that it had more to do with the higher cost in making the Clevelands and their larger size than the Windsor in combination with the death of performance at Ford in the mid 70's. I know that you can now buy 429 & 460 crate motors from Ford, makes me wonder if they've added the Cleveland to the crate motor program.
When you've got a torque converter in the drive train, when RPMs rise and your butt-dino doesn't register the difference, there is an internal diconnect that makes the SST much less satisfying than a true manual.
The LS is my first automatic. I did drive the V6/Manual, but the lack of lowend torque was dissapointing. (This coming from a 11 year SHO driver.) I chose the V8 SST. After 2 years experience, I'd change that decision now if I could.
I don't think I'd pay 50K+ for an LS, but since the resale of my 2000 (16K miles) is in the dumper, I may be talking with McLaren about those upgrades. I hope the 2000s qualify for all the goodies.
Lest you misunderstand, at Mania3 we weren't told about the changes, we were shown two cars. Sat in them, played with the controls, kicked the tires, etc., etc., for a couple hours while a few of Lincoln's "big wheels" hung around answering questions and soliciting our opinions.
re MTX vs. SST, while I enjoy shifting gears (in my Triumph, not my Lincoln), I'm not convinced there's much performance advantage in real-world driving. I don't believe there are that many people who can shift as fast as the automatic. When you need instantaneous acceleration for highway passing, even a V8 manual LS would be hard pressed to keep up with the V8 auto. While it's being shifted from 5th to 4th (or should it be 3rd, hmm?), the automatic car is GONE.
A mini-Continental? That's a new one; I thought we were driving BMW ripoffs. Or was it Mitsubishi?
Sorry, but the '00 - '02 MY LSs don't qualify for most of the good McLaren stuff. Definitely not the blower or the 6-speed manual. I know, I asked the question in the LLSOC conference call.
What you may be able to get from McLaren to add to your '00 - '02 LS is the larger brakes (better fade resisitance, not necessarily stopping distance), exhaust, and intake mods. Since brake, and exhaust mods can already be had, I doubt it's worth waiting on McLaren for performance enhancements on your LS.
I've driven many high performance cars with manuals, and owned a few also. I find the SST to be AN EXCELLENT transmission for the LS, and I doubt I would ever realize a significant benefit from having a manual transmission. The SST tranny provides nearly all the control a manual offers, and provides a service a manual can't. I'll take the SST transmission for a car in the LS size class EVERYTIME.
IMO, manual transmissions are great in certain, smaller,lighter (i.e., more "tossable") cars. The LS is definitely a tossable car due to its neutral balance, but it's not a 2-seater (or a token 2-seater).
In the case of the LS, the V-8 auto does 0-60 in about 7.2. The V-6 MTX does about 7.4. From that one can roughly figure that the auto tranny steals about 30 hp. Remember, the MTX has a 3:07 rear while the V-8 has a 3:31. I bet my Borla, new air box equipped MTX could match the V-8 in 0-60. Typically, an MTX beats an automatic in the first few feet off the line. The MTX driver can nail the clutch at the top of the torque peak. The Auto driver can try the pedal on the gas and brake routine but I don't think it's going to help much. In 1967, Ford started to shange it's automatics so they could not be dropped into Drive if the rpm was much above idle. I was a lot boy at University Ford in the Summers of 1966 and 1967 (my uncle was service manager). I had a blast with all the cars but the 67's wouldn't let me "drop the hammer" into Drive like the 66's and earlier. I especially liked the 67 Mustang fastbacks with the 390's and the four speed MTX. Fast and torquey. Anyway, all autos lose time in that critical period of "off the line" acceleration. The V-8 auto also loses some of it's hp and gearing advantage from hydraulic pumping losses during the shifting process. It just takes power to shift, whether it's automatic or manual. The Getrag is one of the slowest shifting MTX I have ever shifted. You cannot force the Getrag. It shifts at its own pace. The Toyota and Muncie trannies I had in the past were much faster shifters. Traditionally, the same vehicle model with the same engine available with an automatic vs an MTX will exhibit about a half-second or greater difference in 0-60 times. Without some car mag research, I think this holds true with the IS300 as it will with the G35 and many other cars. The solution with an automatic car for better times is simply to add hp/torque. I think the O3 LS V-8 with VVT will have acceleration improvements beyond it's modest hp increase just from the lower/wider torque band. Same for the V-6. Too bad the new VVT engine won't find it's way in front of an LS Getrag. I bet it's 0-60 times would improve significantly.
I know that now the topic is about the SST & MTX and '03 trunk changes. But, I was searching through ebay and I ran accross this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1846542685 it is like a electric centrifical supercharger for the LS.
Does anyone know the specifics of the Corvette ZR1 model. I can't remember the model years (90s?) when the 6 speed AUTOMATIC was the fastest version of the car through from 0-60 and quarter mile. I know this is very atypical for an automatic, but this was at least one instance where the auto beat the manual in a very high performance car no less. Was the ZR1 engine de-tuned somewhat when coupled with the manual? I sure someone with a vast archive of auto rags will know.
According to the Engineer, the LS automatic consumes 8 hp to run the pump, IIRC. There are also losses through the torque converter, of course. I'm not arguing that an automatic is as efficient as a manual. Nor do I believe SST is much of a substitute. I simply believe that the passion for driving a manual trans is more an emotional preference than a real performance issue. The idea that a car with an auto trans cannot be a true high performance car is just plain wrong, IMO. There was a time this was definitely true, but these are not our Grandpa's Powerglides or Cruise-O-Matics.:)
I'm 60 years old and have no interest in 0-60 times. Well, almost no interest. To me, the driving experience of a manual is simply the fun factor. I also like the quietness of the tranny. I am sorry to hear it will no longer be available. It's interesting the CTS (and others)seem to be promoting the five-speed manual. Even Jaguar ...which could well be my next car. Ever feel you were hung out to dry? Maybe LM will offer a manual six speed on the 2005. Wow!
Comments
Now what's the better value? It's not the Mclaren!
Next year the CTS will have a new GM "Hot-Rod" V-6. The only game in town will be 04 CTS Manual vs. G35 Manual.
BMW has a problem!
"Gee, I can pay almost $60k for a Mclaren that does 0-60 in the same time as a $27k G35."
Actually, when the G35 Coupe debuts at the dealers in November, the 0-60 (yeah, I know, 0-60 aint everything, but face it...it is a significant benchmark of performance) will probably be better...the latest estimates for 0-60 in the 275+hp G35 Coupe with 6-speed is around 5.7 seconds...the torque band in the VQ engine is kinda high, and will prolly be better suited with a true manual transmission)
Im sure the Mclaren LS will be nice, especially when combined the the 2003 improvements. The size is also a plus.
But, how will resale be on an aftermarket modified car? Curious how previous iterations of vehicles like this have held up resale wise? For now, Im going to continue to enjoy my "old" 2000 LS V6 Sport.
But to be on the safe side, I did drop a fully refundable deposit on a 2003 G35 Coupe. ;-)
So, how exactly was Lincoln keeping the manual secret? Because a few salesman didn't know or didn't push it? Doubt it.
(However, I will agree that not stocking one for a test drive probably impacted sales.)
Haven't we been saying all the while that a typical car nut walks into a dealership and knows more about a particular model than the salesperson? So, are we to believe that the typical LS buyer, who loves driving and wants a performance sports sedan, didn't know that a manual was available?
Again guessing, manual LS's didn't sell because most performance oriented drivers want the bigger engine/manual combination, not the smaller engine/manual.
That's where Lincoln blew it.
As for the new hotrod Lincoln, at that price, specialized dealer support, and a resale value that will most likely drop like a rock (how many used LS McLaren's will be advertised as "driven by little old ladies only on Sunday"), I don't see a big future for the car. Supply could equal demand, depending what supply actually is.
(Mercury claimed 15,000 Marauders will be built, and now dealerships in North Jersey have many sitting on their lots. One dealer has five.)
Makes good press, though. (Similar to a tire burning, 0-60 in 6.5 seconds, "return of the musclecar" full size sedan.)
Tom
G35 - cheap 4 door sedan with a great engine/tranny combo. Not a luxury sedan in my book and not a direct competitor to the LS. It's also faster than a 740i or E-class but they are not competitors.
The 350 hp and 6.2 second 0-60 times were based on the 2002 252 hp LS prototype. The 2003 V8 LS will do 0-60 in the mid 6's (by C&D testing standards) with 280 hp @ 4K rpm with a 3.58 rear gear. The blower and intake/exhaust package adds 100 hp to that for 380 while retaining the 3.58 rear. That should push the auto McLaren into the upper 5 second range, and even faster with the 6-speed manual if it's offered. llsoc.com hosted the Mclaren folks for a conference call recently so I'm sure someone who listened can comment on the manual availability.
Makes you wonder: Why do most of the Ford engines put out less than the competition? It's almost uniform compared with the GM engines in HP per cubic inch, especially in the truck lines, and the GM engines are almost all old non-cross-flow, two valve pushrod types. Ford engines are almost all OHC. I know that 4 valves put out less torque at lower rpms, but that doesn't account for the two-valve to two-valve comparisons using the base 4.6 and 5.4 liter Romeos.
Is it conservative cam timing and lift? Combustion chamber design for emissions?
Curious minds want to know.
Look at the Corvette. 405 hp out of a modified LT-1 1955 design. No VVT. Pushrods. No tricks like individual throttles and double Vanos on an M3.
Maybe Ford needs more sophistication in engine design.
Hey, you M.E. types, what gives?
I RELUCTANTLY accepted the V6 ONLY because there was no V8 manual. Had one existed it may just have made me forget about that M5 my heart was set on. IF, and that is indeed a big IF, Lincoln had produced the V8 manual I firmly believe sales would be double what we see now. I know I would have jumped on that opportunity. But alas . . . Lincoln DID just plain blow it. I know the Lincoln LS personnel are totally committed to the car so it must have been some SUIT who isn't a car guy/gay that pulled the plug. Obviously this pathetic individual knows nothing about driving enthusiasts. And to think that this individual somehow made it into upper management, WOW!
Regarding the Mclaren, although it will be a great product at that price I would not be looking at it, but rather either the BMW 540i or the Jag S-Type R (which is more luxurious), but not the McLaren. Long story short: I don't think there will be many McLaren LSes around. Better products in class and several that are similar at a much lesser price.
I also got the impression that McLaren will price their product "appropriately", which to me, means that nothing is cast in stone yet. Rants to the effect that the car will cost up $60K just aren't reasonable. Lincoln and McLaren know that the LS needs to represent a "value" price point relative to their competition. The McLaren LS is aimed to compete with the BMW 540/M5. . . depending upon how much performance they can wring out (which, I believe should fall somewhere in between the two).
As to who's going to buy it when there's 540i's, etc. at this price, resale value, etc., we're talking about a few hundred cars here in the total production run. Lincoln probably makes this many LSes in a few days. I spoke to Steve Rossi on this very issue. He told me that there are always customers that want something different and/or exclusive; that there are BMW owners who will buy it just because it ISN'T a BMW. Frankly, they're expecting a good number of customers that do not currently own an LS. Steve is a pretty savvy marketing guy, so I'll take him at his word right now and assume he knows what he's talking about. There are people paying 50K and up for fully tricked-out aftermarket Mustangs too. Would you pay that much for a Mustang? Neither would I, but there seems to be enough of a market to sustain all the tuners.
As to the service issues, where do Ferarri, Aston-Martin, Lotus, etc. owners get these low-vloume cars serviced? There will be 100 carefully selected Lincoln dealers handling the car. You probably have a better shot at getting it serviced than a Porsche owner on a road trip.
JerryM3 wrote: (Mercury claimed 15,000 Marauders will be built, and now dealerships in North Jersey have many sitting on their lots. One dealer has five.)
I dont know about northern NJ, but the Marauder is selling quite well. Mercury had over 85,000 inquries before the car was introduced. My own dealer had already sold 6 by April, 3 months prior to the introduction date. This is from Reuters on July 1:
"Mercury Marauder Rockets Up Sales Charts - Even Before It Goes on Sale
IRVINE, Calif., July 1 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The all-new 2003 Mercury Marauder is off to a high-speed start, as more than 5,200 vehicles were pre-sold to customers prior to the first vehicle being delivered to dealers' showrooms..."
So, a third of the production run was pre-sold.
"G35 - cheap 4 door sedan with a great engine/tranny combo. Not a luxury sedan in my book and not a direct competitor to the LS."
I tend to agree that the G35 is not a direct competetior to the LS, but I also thought the 3-series BMW wasnt a direct competetior to the LS, but all the car industry/mags seemed to think otherwise. I assume that the 2003 LS's will still be considered "near luxury", in which case, the 3 series BMW and the G35 will prolly be compared head to head with the LS in fall/winter car mag reviews.
Also agree with Stanny...any reason why Ford seems to lag YEARS behind the comp in engines? 230hp from the 2003 LS V6 is NOT "amongst the most powerful 6 cylinders on the market". Who they foolin'? Hello?? Anyone ever heard of the engine in the Acura TL-S? In the Max? Heck, in 1995...1995...7 years ago...BMW got 240hp, and more importantly, over 300ft/lbs of torque out of a naturally aspirated 3.0 liter engine in their E36 M3. BMW's V8 been puttin out 282hp since 1995 (1996?) as well.
At some point, Ford needs to BEAT the competetion, not just attempt to keep up.
From my memory of what we were told by the McLaren people, the six speed would be available as the stage III package, available with both of the other packages only. However, it was confirmed that most likely, the dealers wouldn't order one for their floors, so the six speed would be a special order item.
Steve Rossi confirmed what has been stated earlier, that the Lincoln dealers are reluctant to stock a manual transmission car, regardless of what car it is in.
So, in a sense, everybody is correct. The manual McLaren will be a very rare bird, most dealers won't stock one so it will get little public exposure. It will be available, but try taking one for a test drive from your local dealer.
Uh-oh, sand truck just arrived. I've got to get back to work.
0, 1, 2, 2, 10 (I don't think the zero dealer has ever had one, and the 10 is not a typo.)
First third went quick based on advance advertising claims; next 2/3s may be a little more difficult.
When first announced, I could not get the Ford Z plan price on a Marauder; some dealers wanted MSRP plus; now, three dealers are offering me the Z plan discount and sending me emails to come on down and test drive one.
If you are interested and are in the DFW Metroplex area drop on by:
Snuffers in Addison is at:
Addison
14910 Midway Rd.
Addison, TX. 75244
972.991.8811
http://www.snuffers.com/ie.html
Every LS Owner in Dallas is Invited. I will wear my Black LLSOC Cap or Blue LLSOC Shirt....
Regards,
Airwolf1000
any to sample. does anyone know who i can contact within ford to try and put some pressure or grease some wheels to get a demo delivered to a local dealer so i can take a test drive? jackg
Yes, it's still an OHV, pushrod design, but it was all new at the outset. NOTHING interchanges with the previous engines, but 405 HP from 346 cu.in....Ain't that sweet??
I very much enjoy my LS, and some of this tread reminds me of the saying: "When you put lipstick on a pig...all you get is a red lipped pig." No, I'm not saying the LS is a pig--far from it. It's just that while many of us have an emotional attachment to the LS, dropping 15 or 20 grand into it, hoping to make it something it isn't is, IMHO, both silly and a lousy financial move. Now if you've got $15K to burn, you have to be different, you like to play, and this is a diversion...a hobby, then that's another story.
Otherwise, look at the factory Jag S Type R, with 420bhp, for about $60K. Or one of those BMWs which, by choice, I know nothing about. Finding stick shift S Type Jags, or stick shift LS McLarens when they are available, will be a challenge. If you absolutely have to have one, wait to buy used and save $15K. BTW, the six location local Lincoln dealership tells me they want no part of being a "select" McLaren representative. If you really "feel the need for speed" buy a used Porsche 996...and you'll have a real sports car.
Last thought....Ford/Lincoln marketing and advertising are their own worst enemy. First they do a terrible job getting the LS message out, then they are painfully slow to improve the breed, and then they put factory high performance options on the higher end Jag S Type. They would sell a lot more hot rod Lincolns than hot rod Jags.
Email me at:brian.gowing@llsoc.com with your location and information and I'll find out if there are any manuals in your area or where we can get you one to test drive.
Brian
And Yes I tow a boat with a BB Suburban rather that the overweight and underpowered Excursion.
So yes Ford does not get this "Power Thing".
The Jag S-Type always seems to have more HP than the LS. I mentioned this at Mania 3 and did not get much of a response.(ie: GM always saved the max horsepower for the Corvette only.Does Ford also have some inside official power mandate?)
The new 03 LS might be very interesting however with new power and torque drive-by-wire, VVT and the new axle ratio. With all new control software hopefully pulling all this together, the possibilities are there. So all may not be as bleak as advertised on some of these posts. :-)
It's all about car companies lurking on enthusiast sites but no mention of Edmund's by name.
Nissan, VW, Mazda, and Lincoln LS were cars/companies mentioned.
Main thrust is about a company employed by Lincoln and other car companies to monitor enthusiast web sites and report findings to them.
This company is called Intelliseek.
Pertinent to the LS, Intelliseek did a project for Lincoln that found that the top complaint of LS owners was a lack of trunk space. People who didn't buy the LS said the same thing.
To think that Lincoln paid Intelliseek for this lame piece of information is beyond me. Lack of trunk space is a topic I haven't heard much about on Edmund's or the LLSOC sites.
It's clear Intelliseek is not monitoring relevant LS sites. At least not "LS enthusiast sites". Duh.
They should just pay Brian for a monthly summation/opinion.
It's clear that either Lincoln brass or we "enthusiasts" live in an encapsulated vacuum.
Hello out there!
It's 2 AM here on the Left Coast. Pardon me - I have to go and check out my trunk space. I must have missed something when I bought my car. I must have been preoccupied by the massive torque of my engine, and the resulting whiplash from the test drive caused me to overlook the critical trunk area. In my dazed state, I signed my lease contract, completely ignoring this much more important feature (or lack of) of my car. I should have compared trunk space of competing vehicles and looked much more closely at the Town Car.
This also means that everything we "enthusiasts" have talked about for the past two years is merely mental masturbation. Intelliseek has found the Holy Grail, the true essence of the LS experience and it is a trunk fetish.
My apologies to all my LS brethren if I have mentioned any other possible factors that may have gone into a consumer's decision to purchase an LS. I was totally off topic. I too often drifted wrongly into diatribes about insignificant mechanical aspects of the LS.
Trunk space, not 0-60, is what true "enthusiasts" talk about on "enthusiast" LS websites.
This is what Lincoln was told and Lincoln paid good money to experts for this data.
Does the 03 have a bigger trunk? This just adds to my feelings of inadequacy.
Ah, autowriters. A group that includes people not knowing which end of a car the battery is in after driving it for a year.
Brian
John
"Improved V-6 is now among the most powerful normally aspirated 3.0-liter engines on the market today"
Please note the "among" and "3.0-liter" qualifiers. The Acrua & Nissan engines are larger in displacement On the other hand, you are right this is called "marketing spin".
GM SB-2: One of the primary drivers for the GM Small Block 2 engine was that GM was getting their rear ends kicked with their 1954 origin NASCAR engine by Ford's 1969 origin "Cleveland" NASCAR engine. So it was time to update a classic and fix a bunch of things that couldn't be done without an almost clean sheet of paper.
I give GM credit for actually putting an engine into cars they currently sell that is related to what they race. Ford quit selling "Cleveland" engines in the US the 1970's and shipped all the tooling to Australia where the beloved Clevelands were relegated to truck service. The Ford race engine is just that, a race engine as nothing even remotely similar to it has been sold in the US by Ford in many, many years. With rear wheel drive race car Monte Carlos, Intrepids and Taurus's, I propose that NASCAR change the "Stock" in their name to "Silloette".
Lolaj42: Please do not accuse me of "Lincoln Bashing" I admire Lincoln for making the V-6MTX in the fist place, but from the day it was intoduced I knew it was doomed. Going against the MTX LS was:
1. Decision to not sell the LS in Europe. As jhoffmann correctly points out, without European MTX sales there would not be MTX 540's, 740's, A6's etc. Once the decision was made not to sell the LS Europe, I knew it was only a matter of time before the LS MTX went away.
2. The LS is simply not in the size, weight and price class where MTX's will sell in the US.
3. Crippling the LS V6. If the Jag 240 HP V-6 had been available from day 1, there may have been enough US customers to keep the MTX V-6 alive. US MTX customers are looking for performance not economy.
4. Not offering a V-8 MTX - see item #3.
5. Dealers. As I said before, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Dealers are business people, not crusaders for automotive dreams. The MTX LS was a risk that complicated their lives.
6. The shakeup in PAG and the decision to not make over Lincoln as a Euro-fighter brand.
Now here is the real questions:
What are the current CTS sales?
How many MTX CTS's have been sold? (I bet it's lower than you think?)
To put cdpinhead's comment in the right perspective, if everyone was satisfied with the status quo, we'd still be making trips to the outhouse. I don't think anyone was "Lincoln bashing" Merely expressing strong dissappointment in the death of the MTX LS, pointing out (in our opinions) what Lincoln did wrong and expressing a sincere desire to see a better product from Lincoln.
Stanny: Trunk space. I am guilty as charged. I have posted on Edmunds 3 times over the last 2-1/2 years that I would like a little more trunk space in my LS. See it once, could be a fluke, See it twice, maybe there is something to it. See it 3 time, must be a critical problem.
'03 LS availablity: Job 1 date is supposed to be November 15, so it will be mid December before you see the first LS's on the dealer lots in most places.
Lack of Ford HP: Stanny: I'm convinced that Ford can make great engines. The current situation with Ford behind the curve in the HP wars I think is simply a result of bad judgement by marketing and the product planners. The people at Ford who need to decide years ahead of time what needs to be in and on a vehicle got caught with their pants down as the rest of the industry rediscovered Horespower. Playing catch up is now hampered by Ford's financial mess. Bottom line it's called "Bad Management". Ford management has been shaken and shuffled and I think the top guys know where they stand and what needs to be done. It's now a matter of getting the job done with the available resources. The '03 LS V8 certainly looks like a big step forward.
However, my point has always been that Lincoln has gone out of their way to ensure MTX availability for the '03 LS . . . they partnered with McLaren. They didn't have to. Sure the MTX option will cost alot more in this form, but at least it's available (with loads of other good stuff as well). The multiple posts critical of Lincoln for abandoning the MTX weren't correct and, in my mind, were nothing short of bashing.
Further, considering the number of LS6 manuals sold, it's no wonder that it was discontinued in '03, and I'm sure Lincoln viewed the deal with McLaren to be far more cost effective than offering a MTX on the LS8. The number of MTXs sold clearly showed the American Consumer's preference for automatics (SST included, which, to me, is a very good compromise for a MTX). Why should Lincoln continue to subsidize the MTX option?
No automatic (SST, etc.) is "a very good comprimise for a MTX". For the true enthusiast, a manual still is comprised of a working clutch pedal and "H" gated shifter. The newer SMG type transmissions do come a lot closer (clutch, but no pedal), but you either have an MTX option or you don't.
I've said this many times before, I've owned and/or driven a manual transmission for my entire adult life (no comments please) and if someone wants to question my status as an "enthusiast", well, them thar's fightin' words! The SST transmission provides me with nearly all the control that a traditional H-gated manual provides, plus it gives me the option of "resting" my left foot and allowing me to keep BOTH hands on the wheel when going through mountain switch backs at HIGHER than posted speed limits.
cb44 - get off the "true enthusiast" bent and sell it somewhere else!
A shame we got stuck with the 351 Windsor instead though.
Also, the car the Nightrider drives in the beginning chase in Mad Max is a Holden, an Aussie GM. Interesting that GM is importing the Holden Monaro as their new GTO.
Now I just have to figure out how to get a Weiand blower sticking out of my LS hood...;-)
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
2000 LS V8 Sport, 2 years old and still going strong.
http://www.jacksonville.com/getjaxwheels/autonews/stories/062502/09559087.shtml
Speaking of the Continental, with the last of those rolling off the assembly line, Lincoln is down to what, only 2 cars? LS sales are well off their peak, but still decent at around 3K/month. 90% of the Town Car's I see are livery vehicles. What is the percentage of fleet sales for that model? It looks like for better or worse, the LS is going to be the standard bearer for the Lincoln brand in the auto market next year.
Doning many layers of Nomex.
Mike
LLSOC Charter Member
Even though the information was inadvertently released by Ford, LLSOC members are honor-bound to keep the agreement they made to not publicly discuss what they know; hope you understand. (I didn't attend Mania 3, so I felt it was easier for me to respond here than for club members who did attend.)
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
LLSOC Charter Member and Mania 1, 2, & 3 attendee
However, I did view the fordmedia.com info on the '03 LS before it was pulled. As I previously posted, it appears that the Lincoln engineers gave us 90% of the things we asked for plus several slick things we never thought of. There are a couple of things we didn't get, but there are valid engineering / manufacturing reasons why they couldn't do them for '03.
All in all (aside from all the MTX whining) the '03 LS is a significant improvement. The decision as to whether to buy a '02 leftover at the current bargain basement prices or wait for the '03's and pay significantly more will have to be made on an individual basis.
swauger, yes I realize that the Clevelands were used in Aussie cars too (lucky them!). My Aussie truck reference was because for a number of years the Nascar engines were based on the Aussie truck block which supposedly had slightly thicker walls. Today, everything is special cast and machined for the race engines. The Cleveland is one sweet good looking engine (still have one with my '72 Torino). The biggest problem with using them for race engines was to fix the oiling problems, that is making sure the right amount of oil got to all the critical parts of the engine, especially at sustained high RPM's.
When Ford dumped the Cleveland in the US the excuse given was that it would be too costly to make it meet the new emissions requirements. Personally, I think that it had more to do with the higher cost in making the Clevelands and their larger size than the Windsor in combination with the death of performance at Ford in the mid 70's. I know that you can now buy 429 & 460 crate motors from Ford, makes me wonder if they've added the Cleveland to the crate motor program.
The LS is my first automatic. I did drive the V6/Manual, but the lack of lowend torque was dissapointing. (This coming from a 11 year SHO driver.) I chose the V8 SST. After 2 years experience, I'd change that decision now if I could.
I don't think I'd pay 50K+ for an LS, but since the resale of my 2000 (16K miles) is in the dumper, I may be talking with McLaren about those upgrades. I hope the 2000s qualify for all the goodies.
re MTX vs. SST, while I enjoy shifting gears (in my Triumph, not my Lincoln), I'm not convinced there's much performance advantage in real-world driving. I don't believe there are that many people who can shift as fast as the automatic. When you need instantaneous acceleration for highway passing, even a V8 manual LS would be hard pressed to keep up with the V8 auto. While it's being shifted from 5th to 4th (or should it be 3rd, hmm?), the automatic car is GONE.
A mini-Continental? That's a new one; I thought we were driving BMW ripoffs. Or was it Mitsubishi?
What you may be able to get from McLaren to add to your '00 - '02 LS is the larger brakes (better fade resisitance, not necessarily stopping distance), exhaust, and intake mods. Since brake, and exhaust mods can already be had, I doubt it's worth waiting on McLaren for performance enhancements on your LS.
I've driven many high performance cars with manuals, and owned a few also. I find the SST to be AN EXCELLENT transmission for the LS, and I doubt I would ever realize a significant benefit from having a manual transmission. The SST tranny provides nearly all the control a manual offers, and provides a service a manual can't. I'll take the SST transmission for a car in the LS size class EVERYTIME.
IMO, manual transmissions are great in certain, smaller,lighter (i.e., more "tossable") cars. The LS is definitely a tossable car due to its neutral balance, but it's not a 2-seater (or a token 2-seater).
From that one can roughly figure that the auto tranny steals about 30 hp. Remember, the MTX has a 3:07 rear while the V-8 has a 3:31.
I bet my Borla, new air box equipped MTX could match the V-8 in 0-60.
Typically, an MTX beats an automatic in the first few feet off the line. The MTX driver can nail the clutch at the top of the torque peak. The Auto driver can try the pedal on the gas and brake routine but I don't think it's going to help much.
In 1967, Ford started to shange it's automatics so they could not be dropped into Drive if the rpm was much above idle.
I was a lot boy at University Ford in the Summers of 1966 and 1967 (my uncle was service manager). I had a blast with all the cars but the 67's wouldn't let me "drop the hammer" into Drive like the 66's and earlier. I especially liked the 67 Mustang fastbacks with the 390's and the four speed MTX. Fast and torquey.
Anyway, all autos lose time in that critical period of "off the line" acceleration.
The V-8 auto also loses some of it's hp and gearing advantage from hydraulic pumping losses during the shifting process. It just takes power to shift, whether it's automatic or manual.
The Getrag is one of the slowest shifting MTX I have ever shifted. You cannot force the Getrag. It shifts at its own pace. The Toyota and Muncie trannies I had in the past were much faster shifters.
Traditionally, the same vehicle model with the same engine available with an automatic vs an MTX will exhibit about a half-second or greater difference in 0-60 times.
Without some car mag research, I think this holds true with the IS300 as it will with the G35 and many other cars.
The solution with an automatic car for better times is simply to add hp/torque.
I think the O3 LS V-8 with VVT will have acceleration improvements beyond it's modest hp increase just from the lower/wider torque band.
Same for the V-6. Too bad the new VVT engine won't find it's way in front of an LS Getrag. I bet it's 0-60 times would improve significantly.