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IMHO, if you only "touch up" certain "spots" on the car between washes, there'll be enough dirt in other places to show that you spot cleaned the car. The only option would be to "spot clean" the whole car ... er, wash it.
So I just wash every week or two. The only thing I will do between washes is use the squeegie at the gas station if my windows are yucky.
Wax? Meguiar's Gold Class. You betcha.
And I'm in touch with the "rained all weekend" thing. It did here too. We got another inch and a half in the rain gauge out on the deck. That makes almost five inches so far in November! Our yard is so wet now, your feet go "squish squish" when you walk in it, and you leave inch-deep footprints in the grass! And my next-door neighbor had a 30-year-old oak tree succumb to the wet ground and it toppled, roots and all, landing in my yard!!! Good thing it didn't hit the house, the shed OR the Proteges ...
Meade
Bruno
Wait a minute -- Paul, didn't you admit you use 409 or Spray 'n Wash or something on your car already? Why don't you just use that for spot cleaning?
And to get a tough stain out ...
Meade
Meade
Meade
The guy who said he wouldn't get involved in this conversation again
Meade
By design, the disc pad presses sideways into the disc -- and contacts the disc all over the disc's surface -- anywhere from about the 7-inch-diameter point on the disc on out to the outside, 10-inch edge.
With the drum brake, on the other hand, the shoe contacts the drum at the 8-inch point in entirety.
I agree with what you're saying about heat-sinking capabilities -- but when it comes to your explanation about force dynamics, I think you've overlooked the fact that only a very small portion of the disc brake pad is actually operating along the disc's maximum diameter. I think if you consider that ALL of the drum's braking power is being applied at the full diameter of the drum, you'll see the two are probably very close in stopping efficiency using your scientific explanation.
Meade the Mathematician
My Protege stops when I want it to. And it has stopped every time I've wanted it to in 46,500 miles, and I haven't had to replace or repair anything.
Call me an appliance user -- I really don't care very much how my brakes work or what Neoclassical Theorems and Postulates went into their design.
The same way I don't really care about my bore and stroke, valve diameter or intake design -- that's what I paid Mazda to do so I can zoom in happy oblivion!
Meade
That's not true. ALL diameters are operating. But the heat will dissipate at different rate at each specific diameter. If you take a RMS (root-mean-square) of the disk with OD=10 inches and ID=7 inches, you will find that it's equivalent to 8.544". You need to put the drum at this RMS-diameter with the same surface-area in order to get the same efficiency.
Same here, get my PhD in 1997
Or was it the facts? You take your pick. ;-)
I used Meguiar's Gold Class leather cleaner for my interior, and really liked the results. I was going to stick with Meguiar's, if I ever get around to waxing the car.
And as far as washing, you have it easy, especially with the new driveway. I have to take the car to the wash every time it gets dirty enough to wash, because I live in the city. Also, your car is dark green and will show dirt alot easier than my white one will.
Pete recommended that I use Gold Class on my car, too, which is what we did. Still looks pretty good a couple of weeks later.
But seriously, how long can I expect it to last? Through the winter?
And what are the proper weather conditions for re-applying in the winter, if I need to?
Certain air temp? Humidity level?
Thanks!
--Dale
Hope this niece person can give it a good home!
--Dale
Just make sure it's really clean and dry before applying the wax.
An excellent front brake in that vehicle was considered a poor design.
An excellent rear brake was a must.
Braking force distribution, ideally for that vehicle was: 20/80 F/R
And it was not a train!!
Can anybody figure out what vehicle is that?
KEEP UP!!!
Meade
Meade
Dale, he meant (I hope) to say "when water NO LONGER beads on the surface." But even that's not always a good indicator. I wax my car two to three times a year.
Meade
On the first stomp, both designs can be made to work well (let's assume they've been designed to stop the vehicle in the same distance from the same speed). On subsequent stops (in a short period of time, like on a track or long downhills), or a long, continual application, the drums will be hotter, and take more distance to stop or slow (the disc brake will also take longer than it did on the first stop, but it'll increase at a slower rate than the drum). If it gets hot enough, you might even get your brake fluid to overheat and actually create gas bubbles. Then you're pretty much SOL.
But for everyday driving, front disc/rear drum set-ups are OK. If you drive a lot on long downhills or race, you're better off with disc/disc set-ups and you might even get higher-temp rated rotors and pads.
I have never waxed a car yet, can you tell?
That said, let's talk about a difference that's much more applicable with 99 percent of the driving public, including us ...
I've had to have disc rotors resurfaced several times on several cars -- yes, even on the rear on cars I've had that have had rear discs (Saabs and Proteges) in my 21 years of driving. Yet to date, I've never had to do a darned thing to any drum brakes I've owned. My Mazda truck went through three sets of front disc pads and had its rotors resurfaced twice -- and was ready for a fourth set -- but was still on its untouched rear drums and second set of shoes -- at 117,000 miles.
In the rear of a car, drums and shoes last much longer and cost much less to maintain than another set of discs and rotors. And money in my pocket is much more important to me than a foot or two of stopping distance. If you know your car, you're going to make it stop in a safe manner and give it the room it needs.
And don't start spouting off about "those two or three feet may be the difference ..." C'mon folks, most panic stops don't occur when you've got 120 feet (nearly half a football field) to play with.
One other jab -- it's really nice to have to stoop down and really sweat over only TWO wheels when I'm washing my car. My 2000 ES's rear drums keep my rear alloys nice and clean!
Meade
P.S. Paul: Yes.
Discs w/crossdrilled rotors on all 4 are good. I have a disc/drum setup on my PRO and know that the 4 discs one I test drove before I got mine stopped better.
Dinu
...guess I just made a comment...
For me the disk/disk is probably not much significantly better for a panic stop. But it helps me not involve into a panic stop situation. Many times, it happens that I see an obstacle and want to slow down, keeping my safe distance with the obstacle. I feel much more confident with a disk/disk brake when slowing down, especially at the beginning of the braking period, giving the feeling of not spending all the resources. I'm not racer, and it makes a difference for me.
Seems putting a parking brake mechanism is a lot easier to do with drums than discs. Thus the cost differential, and why many manufacturers still put drum brakes on the rear wheels.
Mazda finally seems to be making the right move into the niche they will do well in which started with the Miata way back when. Reasonablly priced vehicles that look good, handle well and have decent power. Really have no competition at the moment, which is sad in a way.
-B
"Disk brakes wear longer, are less affected by water, are self adjusting, self cleaning, less prone to grabbing or pulling and stop better than any other system around."
My experience has shown that in the rear, drum brakes have always outlasted discs. Also, drum brakes are enclosed whereas discs are wide open, and one good douse of cold water from a hose on your wheels when you don't wait long enough after driving your car to wash it and you've got warped disc rotors. Ever seen your hot discs release a nice cloud of steam when you hit a puddle in a parking lot? (If you haven't, you haven't been driving long enough or you don't pay very good attention to your car.) Disc brakes are FAR more susceptible to water because they're wide open to it! Also -- drum brakes are self-adjusting too. And while disc brakes may be "self-cleaning," they do so by cleaning themselves all over your wheels and tires!
Again, I agree that discs are better ... but I don't swear at the rear drums on my 2000 ES every time I step on the brakes. My brakes work very well.
Meade
I had a '71 Land Cruiser with drums all around. After driving through puddles about the only thing that would stop it was a downshift. Down long hills the brakes would fade and again you were faced again with using the engine to slow the pig.
Yes, drums work fine in the Pro, but discs are clearly superior.
If you drive like me, they are not ok. Try that 100-0 panic stop and you'll realize. I guarantee it.
OK!
Funny, I don't feel I'll ever need to panic stop from 100 in an economy car ...
Meade
P.S. "70 and mild-mannered?" The top speed limit in my state is 65, so I guess we're all mild-mannered here in Virginia.
c'mon.......
Call me a law-breaker I guess...
But for the standard Protege/P5, a front disc/rear drum arrangement is fine. Still, I wouldn't turn down rear discs either (they're just easier to change pads for me...I hated changing the shoes on the rear drums on my 323...probably take mine to the dealer to change the rear drums ).
Now for anything that just invites spirited driving (and braking), I think rear discs are better.
any one wants to take a shot at it?
I have had both front disc/rear drum, and 4disc. I like the 4disc better for the pedal feel like I said before.
And my mother's 94 Bonneville needed work on its rear drum brakes. Granted, it was cheaper than the disc brake work. But it was still needed, at around 100K miles.