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Although off the record, there's a few vehicles where ATC is a bit "extreme" and somewhat annoying. Explorer and Mustang both with the 4.0L., but I won't go into that...
Aww, Ant; I had hoped you'd do better on this one.
The above quote is believed by many, but is simply not true. The Explorer 5-speed auto transmission has no feature that recognizes or adapts to a person's driving behavior. After a few thousand miles, it will execute a given shift the same for Granny as it will for anyone else.
Where can I find more information on:
"Adaptive Transmission control"?
"Adaptive Shift scheduling'?
"Adaptive Shift Quality control"?
"The Adaptive Transmission Control system recognizes individual styles of driving (e.g., aggressive vs. Relaxed) and adapts transmission shift parameters accordingly."
Media.Ford.com
Steve, Host
As for the Explorer not having it, open the Owner's Manual, and pg.176, (if it's a 2005 manual, might differ a page or 2 on other years)... titled "Driving", first paragraph reads....
"This vehicle is equipped with adaptive Transmission Shift Strategy. Adaptive Transmission Shift Strategy offers the optimal transmission operation and shift quality...." etc.etc.
Now who should we believe, the engineers who design & build the transmission, or the PR folks? Who would you bet on?
How about a survey among our readers?
A) PR folks
Engineers
Just the facts from those who really know.
I think if that would be the case, then a massive class action suit could stem from that. I can read the headlines now.... "Edmunds forum members discussing the Explorer transmission prompted an investigation into false claims from the manufacturer that the vehicle was equipped with technology, that wasn't really present"...
That and have a massive hysteria of forum members on here, emailing Ford over that concern. So in essense your saying Ford purposely printed information about the vehicle (and on the owner's manual, which is taken even more seriously) that includes technology that really isn't present ? And that the PR folks just through that tidbit into the manual for decoration ?
I mean, those are some pretty serious accusations.
But there are those over-reported horsepower cases where the automakers offer to buy back cars and sometimes get sued. (USA Today)
I don't know if Siemens supplies Ford, but their press site is similar to Fords:
"Siemens VDO is now able to apply flexible fuzzy logic algorithms for adapting the driving and shifting strategy of a vehicle's powertrain to the driver's style."
Siemens VDO Automotive
Bosch is somewhat similar. (pdf file). Subaru talks about changing the shift logic to "correspond with the driver’s intention."
ANT's got links to back his comments up fwiw; I guess I want to talk to the software engineer. :shades:
Steve, Host
Anyone who wants to talk about the Explorer or Mountaineer and not just transmission nuances, feel free to hop in with a new thread.
Steve, Host
"The above quote is believed by many, but is simply not true. The Explorer 5-speed auto transmission has no feature that recognizes or adapts to a person's driving behavior. After a few thousand miles, it will execute a given shift the same for Granny as it will for anyone else."
This is based on input from the engineers who designed and calibrated the transmission.
I understand how many have been mis-led by misinformation. It's fine with me if they want to continue to believe it. If anyone cares to understand the reality of how the transmission adapts, I'll be glad to offer it up.
I respect your position Steve. I don't think this transmission discussion has provented anyone from posting on another subject. I hope you respect mine as well. I'm loyal to Ford, and get a bit riled when I read statements that I know to be incorrect. I would think that Edmunds would also be interested in the integrity of the posts on their forum.
Peace?
Personally, I just like to see more in the way of back up than "based on input from engineers." Not that I don't believe you, and just because it's on the net doesn't mean it's true, but I'd like to see some more in the way of back-up documentation or explanation. So feel free to offer it up, and we'll wrap it up in time to return to the usual commentary in here when the regulars and would be owners get back from holiday.
And I am a bit confused - are you ok that some transmissions do adapt for different drivers, just not the ones in the Explorer?
Steve, Host
It does appear that some transmissions adapt for different drivers. I've been addressing the false claim that Explorer transmissions do.
Unless more misinformation appears, I'm done with this topic.
Steve, Host
The software does adjust, but NOT to the driver. It leaves the plant with optimal shift duration data stored in memory. As the computer experiences shifts, it compares the actual duration of the shift with optimum. It adjusts engagement and release timing and pressures to bring the shift duration closer to optimum. This can take several occurrences of a given shift before optimum timing is achieved. Note that a "given shift" is much more than a 1-2 shift. It's a 1-2 shift at various throttle openings and RPM. Same is true for the 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-4,4-3,3-2,2-1, N-D, R-D shifts.
A big reason for this strategy is that the transmission automatically adjusts for clutch and band wear as the vehicle ages.
Please do not attempt to twist the above into any resemblance of adapting to DRIVER habits. It simply does not!
Steve, the only way I know to do what you propose is to post the name and number of an engineer at Transmission Engineering in Livonia. That isn't appropriate.
If ANT14 has the inside track that's implied in his posts, then he can get the correct information with no more than 3 phone calls.
Considering Ford monitors these boards (and I know that as a fact). I wouldn't recommend posting such information. Fords legal representatives will get the information, issue a "John Doe" search and discovery towards Edmunds to release the IP of the person posting the claim, then file another search and discovery towards the IP provider, track down the informants stating such claims, and they can actually lose their jobs and face legal recourse for stating such claim which otherwise they wouldn't be able to release because it's considered insider espionage.
Specially considering it's information that can be detrimental over an issue in technnology Ford has claimed for many years to have offered, has included information over it to the media and boasted over it, mention it in the owner's manual, etc.... which could lead to private lawsuits on the side of Explorer owners. And all this because one or 2 engineers conclude otherwise.
So it's best to let the issue rest at this point without opening Pandora's Box....
Ok, if I take my tranny in for a reflash, the optimal shift duration data will get changed and the tranny will take a while to adjust. If I disconnect the battery to cause the tranny to relearn, aggressive or mild driving will just affect the time it takes for the tranny to figure out the optimal shift duration, based on throttle and rpm stuff. Or am I putting words in your mouth?
I think we're about done here...
Steve, Host
You nailed it, Steve.
Although I haven't heard of rough road tripping.
After driving Hondas and Toyotas, this was our first Ford, and we have been very impressed.
1997 Ford Explorer XLT 137,000 miles
2000 Ford Explorer XLT 101,000 miles
Toyota is vulnerable due to their cheapness - the solid axle is cheaper than an independent rear suspension. If Ford would step up and use the same tool which has helped Hyundai - a 10 year / 100,000 mile warranty, I think they could easily take customers away from Toyota and Honda in segments such as SUVs where they have good products.
For those who are interested in my attempt to sell my '02 Mountaineer, an update: I have had one low baller who thought my '02 Mountaineer would only be worth $8,000 to $9,000, and one caller who offered $10,000 sight unseen, but wanted to pay with a check. Other than that, just three or four callers who saw the signs on it when we were driving and who were disinterested after finding out it has 93,000 one-owner high way miles. I will give it time, but if it does not sell, try to go to a swap meet, or just keep it several more years and use it to drive to demolition sites and other places where the minivan might be too low.
"And as for long term durability, most Fords disintegrate between 75,000 miles and 100,000 miles..."
I am sorry to say that I sorely disagree with you guys. I've never had a Ford "Disinigrate". Every Ford Explorer that I have bought has had over 100,000 miles or almost 100,000 miles on them, and they were and are excellent vehicles. I also drive the vehicles hard, with a heavy foot, so they have to be strong.
1991 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer 4.0L V6 - Great vehicle - the only problem was weak auto transmission. Bought at 100,000 miles, Sold at 160,000 miles
1993 Ford Explorer XLT 4.0L V6- Great vehicle - the only problem was weak auto transmission. Bought at 112,000 miles, Totaled at 176,000 miles.
1997 Ford Explorer XLT 5.0L V8 - Great vehicle - No problems. Bought at 98,000 miles 2/2002, drives great, will continue to drive it until 2006.
2000 Ford Explorer XLT 5.0L V8 - Great vehicle - No problems. Bought at 99,000 miles 3/2005, drives great, will continue to drive it until 2011.
These are superb vehicles, but the trick is you have to do lots of intense research to understand the pro and cons of each vehicle, I shop for what I need and what is the most reliable vehicle with the most reliable powertrain. It is mostly a matter of researching for what NOT to buy. Also, I am not like most of you guys, as I am a little out of place here, being a mechanic and I do my own work. Most of you have to deal with the hassle of having to argue with the dealer to get your cars fixed. I can't waste my time arguing with anybody or waiting on anybody. If my car has a problem, a squeak, a knock, a thump, or whatever, I just fix it and it is done, no hassle. If you buy the RIGHT vehicle, you don't have to repair the major items like engines and transmissions. I use only the best synthetic lubricants, and perform and keep all maintenance up to date. Preventive maintenance is your best defense against unwanted breakdowns and repairs. I'm not scared of a 100,000 mile car, if fact, that is what I prefer. But I can understand your fear of the unknown, you are thinking, Will this thing get me to where I want to go? Or will this thing cost me an arm and a leg down the road? I believe the answer is that a well researched and well maintained vehicle will get you where you want to go and NOT cost you an arm and a leg down the road. But it helps a lot if you can do you own work, at least the light stuff anyway, like spark plugs, batteries, alternators, starters, brakes and general service. Leave the A/C and engine diagnosis to the Pros. I keep my eye on all the new developments, I hear of problems with the sprockets going bad on the V8's with the variable valve timing, at least I read that on the F150 site. Who knows, maybe my next car will be a hybrid! It just depends on what my needs are and what is the best thing out there the next time I'm ready to buy, but I've got a long time to do that research.
E.D.
Hey Daryl,
You know you could very well be correct. Maybe they won't fall apart long term. But Ford continues to do "cost cutting" and some of the initial and widespread problem(s) (the rear-ends for example) don't bode well for having long-term confidence in this vehicle. I really like my '02. However, I have doubts with long-term realiabiltiy! Don't forget, all of the vehicles you have listed above are a different "animal" from the redesign '02 on up. I have not had any trouble (41K miles) with the SOHC V6, but man that motor is LOUD and CRUDE!
It's really amazing what we as owners settle for. We all know about the rear differential. I don't think the other two items should have ever gotten past the"QC" at the point of assembly! Just my thoughts......
Out of how many thousands of parts, and thousands of connections? In addition to component complexity ... radios with more computer power than Apollo space ships.
And trying to test each combination in each of thousands of modes of operation in the field.
I wish my personal failure rate was that low.
And INITIAL quality isn't really the big issue under discussion here. Three defects, five defects, zero defects...it doesn't matter really because they get fixed under warranty. The REAL issue is what happens AFTER the warranty period. In other words, will Explorer have good LONG TERM DURABILITY without unreasonable repairs? And how does that LONG TERM DURABILITY stack up to the Japanese competition?
"My 2002 Mountaineer came from the factory with three defects - a pinched fuel tank vent hose, a mark in the paint, and a rear differential which had been improperly assembled (it was singing loundly after just a few thousand miles).
It's really amazing what we as owners settle for. We all know about the rear differential. I don't think the other two items should have ever gotten past the"QC" at the point of assembly! Just my..."
Do YOU have ANSWERS to THE questions YOU raised?
96 Contour
96 Mercury Mystique
'98 Contours (2)
95 Mercury Sable
94(?) Tempo
'02 Explorer (Currently)
'05 Taurus (Not "owned" but company provided vehicle)
Take the Contours and Mystique listed above. The Duratec V6 in these vehicles that was an option (I heard co-developed by Porsche) was nothing short of a remarkable piece of technology. However, to save on weight they used a water pump with a plastic impeller. It would break at 50K like clockwork. This is also inexcusable! Let's call it like it is and not make excuses for all the automakers!!
I see the new Ford Fusion is supposed to be the wondercar of the future. Seems to me that the Contour/Mystique was supposed to be that 10 years ago and the Tempo/Topaz before that. In other words, you can fool me once, shame on me....
I just do not buy the Toyota reliability myth. Why do they and others sell so many parts for Toyotas if they never fail? Why have they had their share of recalls?
I just discovered an outright design defect in my new Sienna. My back (shoulders / neck) have really been bothering me since I got it 4,500 miles and 45 days ago. It is definitely the car, not me. I thought the seat was junk, but thanks to another Edmunds user, I just discovered that the steering column is slanted to one side (closer to the front of the car on the left). It is a big enough angle that it amounts to several inches at the seat. I was planning to have the seat re-stuffed and the hot to sit on solid leather replaced with perforated leather (as on the Mountaineer) or cloth, but now I may sell the thing. It has the smoothness the 2002 Mountaineer lacks (and which the 2006 Mountaineer apparently will have), and is quiet and very handy for my needs, but I may not be able to keep it. It also gets only slightly better mileage than teh Mountaineer, even though it is rated much higher.
If I sell it, I will certainly re-consider the 2006 Mountaineer, 2007 Explorer SportTrac, and other Ford products.
Because they wear out? Was that a trick question?
tidester, host
10 times as many??
In God we trust; all others bring data.