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yes but it could be that they are the pre orders just arrived, a lot of dealers show them on inventory until they are delivered. When you inquire about them you find out.
IMHO Porsche will need to aggressively enter the leasing business with good programs to hit its sales targets in US with Cay. I don't know the percentages but I would guess in excess of 50% lease high end SUV's and autos. The retail price is one issue but in leasing (which I always do) the price and lease can be very different depending on program, residual etc. If you can lease a 7 series for 1200 per month and Cay is 1500-1800 for argument sake then it will be a tough go for them. I shop by category and lease price. For instance I just leased an X5 3.0 because my wife wanted an SUV and I wanted to be in the 500-650 per month range. That narrowed my choices and I chose the one that I felt was best for the $ (loaded X5 for 600 per month , nothing down 15K per year). Had the Cay even been in the ball park I would have considered but at 2-2.5 times the monthly it now competes with Super cars category in my mind. Before I would spend that much for a lease of an SUV, I would have gotten my wife a Murano and checked out 7 series, S Class, M3, etc for me! Just my 2 cents (and that's what it's probably worth!)
Probably so, esp. since leasing is often appealing to higher income brackets/businesses. But Porsche keeps saying they don't intend to do much with incentives, leasing or otherwise, to avoid cheapening the brand.
Watch for new Cayenne ads during the US Open (link, Chicago Sun Times).
I don't understand why they would think that a lease program would cheapen the brand. All they would be doing is bringing the lease price in line with the purchase price. In other words if one buys a Cay for 25% more than an X5 they should be able to lease it for 25% more. If they do not set a competitive price for leasing that equals the price for purchase than they've just "lost" a good portion of 50% of the market.
I'm sure that the "brains" there know this and that when the supply reaches a critical point they will have to make a program. If not they are really charging a premium to the lease clients. Maybe the V6 will be more aggressively priced.
I don't disagree - I just don't think Porsche is going to couch the ads in terms of incentives. Maybe something more along the lines of "consider leasing - you may be able to afford more than you think" will work?
I don't understand why they would think that a lease program would cheapen the brand. All they would be doing is bringing the lease price in line with the purchase price. In other words if one buys a Cay for 25% more than an X5 they should be able to lease it for 25% more. If they do not set a competitive price for leasing that equals the price for purchase than they've just "lost" a good portion of 50% of the market.
I'm sure that the "brains" there know this and that when the supply reaches a critical point they will have to make a program. If not they are really charging a premium to the lease clients. Maybe the V6 will be more aggressively priced.
The Cayenne is not for someone who cares so little about cars, I don't think you are the type to own or lease one because you appear only interested in reducing the choice to plain finances.
I used to do that myself and had basically determined my car choices by lease payment until I tested the Cayenne, it changed me.
I fell in love with this car and bought one, I decided to buy it instead of leasing for financial reasons tho, the tax break.
The lease rates I was offered were better than those offered by BMW (I was not looking for a 3.0 which is more retail oriented but for the 4.4 which BMW control supply tightly of to maintain pricing) FYI You can get a Cayenne for about 740 per month lease.
I too don't only go by lease pricing but it does figure into my equation. The 740 you mentioned is in the ball park in my mind but is much lower than I was quoted 3 mos. ago (approx 1200). Maybe things have changed. If I fell in love with a vehicle, 150-200 per month would not stop me at this point. (When my second child enters college I may have a different answer). My only point really was that car companies obviously price their vehicles somewhat strategic ally against the competition. And that being the case, with 50% or so leasing, they should look at that price as well to maintain the strategic plan.
both your points are valid. Porsche traditionally was an enthusiasts car; and people bought because they "wanted to own the car" However, times have changed, and a lot of people would lease a Porsche if given the chance. The tax advantages are there, especially for the CAyenne, so it makes good financial sense to increase its market share. There will be higher stocks of lease returns, but that is also good; it allows others to get the car for a good price.
The broader SUV market has absolutely no need for a V8, as a matter of fact I personally believe an I4 (from the 968 parts bin) would be wonderful if matched with a hydraulically driven (via the power steering pump) variable speed supercharger that only "spins-up" during acceleration.
And there is little or no need (broader market) for a low-range gearbox.
Trim off about 1000lbs and price it equal to the X5 and overwhelm the market.
SUV makers are finally realizing that few SUV buyers need more off-road capability than a two-wheel pick-up with a LSD. With the emphasis on better fuel economy, lighter weight,etc, manufacturers are concurring that the extra four-wheel drive hardware is rarely used and just dead weight. New electronic traction-control systems can get you out of many traction loss situations. Many SUVs are ill-equipped for even semi-off-road anyway (lack of LSD/Lock on both axles,etc). Most SUV drivers want the tough look, the high seating position, and the perceived protection factor. They don't want the gas mileage from the weight now that SoCal gas is getting above $2.50 per gallon for Premium (which in Calif is max 91 octane, specially blended for smog and less mileage as a result). Here in San Diego, we have our share of off-road Ho-Daddies, driving H2s and other overkill off-road vehicles. Most never see any dirt. The owner of a differential rebuilding firm here called Pro-Gear makes a killing off rebuilding and re-sealing front differentials that are never used. They die from seal decay and dry-out,lack of lube circulation which causes rusted bearings. The old saying use it or lose it is certainly true here.
SUVs. Like a tri-athlete, it had to excel in 3 areas, though probably not be number 1 in all areas. Triathletes may be great in 2 areas and only ok in one, but it is enough to win the race. Yes, Porsche could have left out a lot of stuff, but then it would not be an SUV, but a lowered minivan. Or a awd station wagon. Yes, a lot of people buy cars with un-needed items that are not used as much. Some have extra roof carriers, nav, cruise control, 4x4 ability, etc. We go to ski and like the real offroad ability, the luxury, and the high performance on road. This engine gets 18 to 19 mpg !! amazing for a high performance engine.(my toyota previa gets only 20-21 mpg and it was one of the best selling minivans.) According to PCNA member Dom Miliano, who is a 911 enthusiast, he was doubtful of it being a real Porsche. He drove the "S" Cay to the PCNA Parade, and loved it. See Excellence magazine,October 2003, pp128. These are not cars with super swamper gigantic mud tires, lifted 3 ft high, with a rear cargo area that never sees cargo. fx45 and Cay are everyday cars that can do, triathletes that are for the real world. Yes, I agree with you (W West) that Porsche can try to capture more market share by designing perhaps an entry level car with awd, or a minivan. I used to drive a 968 and love its torque and speed and gas mileage.
I don't know what porsche dealer you were talking to concerning your lease but they must have been hitting the pipe pretty hard or had a gambling addiction to pay for. A well equipped Cayenne S should have been low to mid 700's. You could have gotten an FX 35 TECH for the X5 price. I pay 625 for one at 39 months and 15k per. I only paid in the first payment. The X5 is a nice vehicle but too "me too" if you ask me. I like the distinctiveness of the Cay and FX a lot better. I hope you enjoy the BMW though it is still a very good Xover.
My payment of 603 includes tax and of course all maint., so I thought it was a good deal to go for the X5. My wife had a problem with the visibility of the FX and I understood. You just didn't get that commanding seating position that she likes.
Did anyone read the scathing review of the Cay in the latest Automobile mag. It's at the end of the mag and I must say that after driving the Cay myself I do agree with some of his points. I too was expecting more, maybe unrealistically high expectations due to the Porsche name. I agree with him that the X5 feels more expensive and solid. It was one of the main reasons I got it. That's not to make anyone wrong for getting a Cay. The most important aspect of anyone's choice is that They like it. We are all different and don't have to agree on what makes a vehicle exciting, entertaining, enjoyable etc. After test driving the Cay I was happy to get back into my 330i with the great satisfaction that it handled better and was a better driving machine than a Porsche! Of course the Porsche was a truck, kind of.. The X5 has a great engine sound and I love the steering. Hopefully it will be as reliable as my 330. I AM looking forward to one day driving a 911 and maybe, just maybe I will fall in love with it.
Understandable on the X5. Dealer quoted me almost 750 a month so I politely said no thanks and never looked back. That would have gotten me a Cay S or FX45.
I really think porsche missed the boat and should have kept it's exclusivity by just producing the TT. The S is to close to the Touareg and the V6 is gonna be a joke. It will not be a good day when the VW TDI beats the Cay S and has a 5k price advantage. The TT is however "THE" 4wd machine. that and the blown S8 are probably the best awd vehicles with 4 doors.
all valid points. The Porsche tried to do too much: to have a real 4x4 that is better than the Range Rover offroad, and a real sports car. The engineers figured out that it would be easier to start out with a sports car design, then add 4x4 ability, instead of using a truck chasis and try to make it into a sports car. However, the offroad ability requires high chasis and heavy offroad components. The sports car performance ability requires low chasis and light weight. The 2 are almost antagonistic, having more of one ability would detract from the other. We like the unique blend of performance and offroad ability. We think it does the most in one single car, kinda like a watered down batmobile. It will not go faster than a 911 turbo or ferrari, nor go where jeeps and H1/H2 can go. But its unique blend does provide the most flexibility. Perhaps many expected the fx45 to be the Porsche, and rightly so. What Porsche tried to do was combine a X5 with a M3, or a G35 with a Q4. They tried their best, and only history will tell if that is what consumers want. For pure onroad daily usage, it is enough. Hey, it weighs 5200 lbs, add fluids and passengers and we are looking at close to 5600 lbs, it can go 165 mph and still get 18 to 19 mpg !! Isn't that good ? In my opinion, I think it is an engineering marvel. I am reading the Cayenne book( not the owners manual , but the actual hardbound book). Glad to hear you guys are enjoying your cars. BMW did do a great job with little 4x4 experience. Fx45 looks and handles great and is a true sports car.
I too don't get the Porsche V6. In an article today on this site they quote a 0-60 time of under 9.1 seconds. Is this bragging for a Porsche? Boy, it really sounds to me like they sold out on this one and I think in the long run it's the wrong way to go. I agree with above that they should have stuck to the Turbo model as King of the SUV's and if you want to belong to the club then that's the price of admission. Now it will just be watered down, less desirable and will invite comparisons to VW. What a shame.
Yes, to appeal to the mass market, I guess the bean counters won out. Perhaps there is already a blurring of niches, with many car makers making excellent sports cars, and taking away market share from Porsche. I don't know...
I have no argument that the TT Cay is a range/911 combo. I think they should have stopped there. The S and V6 market are handled by the vw. let them have that and leave the "top dog" to porsche. I for one don't want to see a 4 cyl porsche for 30k one day kind of ruins the brand. I think the same about the jag x-type some brands need to stay premium.
Yeah, I agree. Kinda like Infiniti bringing out an economy pickup for $9000; if that would ever happen, it would dilute/ruin the "premium" quality of the brand. (not that there is anything wrong with a $9000 pickup).
Just came back from the Cayenne Experience. It was great. A lot of people with good cars came, lotsa boxsters, 911,X5,Audi,ML,Lexus,Infiniti,MB sedans, etc. No mobs. Two lines, One for driving offroad, one for driving onroad(performance). Both S and TT present. first went to get some lox salmon, sausages, thai chicken,etc. Then got in line for offroad;waited only 20 minutes (compared to 2 hrs for the H2). The course was longer and more difficult compared to the H2 course. 1st and 2nd hill had the Cay on 2 wheels already, with traction control kicking in. Then a 20 ft hill going 45 deg up. with 20 inch breakover angle, no problem. Same angle going downhill, with descent control automatically kicking in...no need to brake. Then 40 ft semi circle hill traverse at 35 deg inclination. Now, waves of small up and down moguls, with some potholes deeper than 20 inches, very jarring, but no problem. Finally a metal tank filled with 20 inches of water. (I think they should have put more in to really check the door seals). All went smoothly, it was a blast. More fun than the H2 course. Then got in line for the performance onroad. You get to try both. my wife took the S, I got the TT...great! The race instructor let me floor it, and gave some advice. I tried to step on the brakes while going thru the slalom, but he said, "no brakes, just turn and lean with the car", So I got more courage and tried to accelerate around corners and out too. WOW, its a blast. I think all should try this with whatever carsyou have, it was great !! The event was not as overbooked as the GM Autoshowinmotion. Negative part was that they only had Cay, no other SUV to test and compare, no boxsters no 911. Everyone loved the experience. Find out from your dealer when it comes to your neighborhood, it is free, free food , free T shirt, great fun, plus very educational. The professional driver told me to never underhand the steering wheel, because it limits quick response, and could push your arm into your face if the airbag goes off. Good info, good advice on offroad and onroad driving.
Not sure what you mean re the airbag. The underhand position doesn't have the leverage of 10 and 2 or the 9 and 3, but it seems like that position is least in the way of the airbag if it goes off.
Are you talking about noon instead of six perhaps?
in really driving a Cayenne. I'm not talking about kick the tires and drive around the block, then 2 miles of freeway at 65 mph., then back to dealership. I'm talking about REALLY flooring it, going at the cones/slalom. You can register online at www.cayenne-experience.com . or call the hotline at 1-888-376-8268. Just like the GM show, this one has no salesmen and no hassles. Just info if you want and a free poster and free T shirt ($25 in the Porsche catalog)! They are going around the country. Sorry Steve, I am not advertising for Por., just thought it was nice to have a no hassle free event for edmunds fans to enjoy no matter what car they drive. Heck, most people hate the cay.
You are correct in the positioning of the hands, 2 &10 oclock, arms slightly bent. I was holding the steering wheel at the 12 oclock position palm up ! During a turn, that position does not allow quick change of directions, and with the arm in front of steering wheel, just a disaster waiting to happen. When your hands are at 2 & 10, arms slightly bent, and you hit a wall, the arms will not transfer the shock to you; the airbag will pop, and move both arms sideways away from the wheel, and then protect your face.
it would more easily push aside your arms. But for comfort, hanging on is less tiring, in the 2 & 10 positions. 9 & 3 would maybe give you better steering wheel control, IMHO.
do you guys know the difference between forged wheels and cast wheels ? How about forged pistons vs cast pistons ?? I keep reading about these but do not understand the diff., quality, methodology, etc.
A 'forged' product has been formed in a hydraulic press or by a hammer. This process "work hardens" your material (usually better, but not always). 'Casting' uses a mold and melted material is pored into the mold and cooled to derive the shape you want (remember that increasing the temperature of a material increases its size and vice versa...this creates internal stress). IMO forging is of higher quality, but your opinion may differ. There are also 'machined' rims which are usually CNC'd (computer numerically controlled) on a mill/lathe from a large piece of stock. These are usually one of a kind / low production runs.
thanks, now I know. I saw some rim manufacturer advertise that their wheels are not cast, but forged. I assume they imply that forged is better. But would forged get you a uniform product ?? Thanks for your info. I'm thinking about some wheels and tires for my car.
I would go with forged rims. You'll never notice the difference between forged/machined/cast rims unless you're racing(decreased rotational inertia) or hard-core off-roading (busted rim) and even then you're going to need better specs than just forged/machined/cast. Best-o-luck
I discovered that the Cay has a very strong alternator,180 ampere, 2520 watts output, which has its own water cooling system. Also, the Turbos have their own oil pumps, which continue to circulate oil to cool the turbos after engine shutoff. This extends the turbo's life span.
The Cay's electro-technical and electronic equipment costs almost as much as the engine; $25,000 to $30,000. The reason they do not come in 19 or 20" wheels is that some people want the softer ride and offroad ability of the 18" wheels. But I still think we should get a choice without the $2000 extra charge.
I've never quite understood the logic as to why people think that Porsche shouldn't have a Cayenne at the price point of the S. It's not exactly bargain-basement pricing - and even if it is, does this mean that Porsche should axe the Boxster and/or Boxster S?
A manufacturer isn't degrading its quality if the lowered price is simply due to choosing a more modest engine, especially if it's still the sort of engine that Porsche usually includes in its cars. It just means that the same acceleration won't be there.
Now, on the other hand, if Porsche said that they were going to start using a Volkswagen VR6 engine in the Cayenne, I'd be concerned!
Also, on the subject of the Jaguar X-Type that was mentioned: I don't really think that it's a dilution of Jaguar's brand either. It should still have Jaguar reliability, still has much of the luxury, and is certainly styled like one for the most part. The only thing I don't like is that the rear looks a bit too much like that of a Taurus.
If you want an economy sports ute, then get Cayenne V6, if regular do-all SUV, get the V8 "S", if you want super performance, then get the twinturbo. Porsche used to make the 924, 944, etc, which were not exactly super car performers.
People in Asia, Middle East, Europe, Mexico, etc have more need of V6 Cay than America, but there will always be some people who like the economy.
The Cayenne Twin Turbo is still the fastest production SUV, actual speed of 165 mph at Nardo race track in Italy. The fastest aftermarket SUv is the Kleeman ML55 supercharged, 607 hp, 175 mph. Lingefelter put a twin turbo V8 in a SONOMA with 732 hp.
I drove the H2 offroad course, and it was a baby course, did not really challenge the car or drivers. The Cayenne offroad course was more challenging, bigger hills that had me going on two diagonal wheels, long uphill at 30 deg, sideways ramp at 30+ DEG, deep holes with no visible bottom, 2 ft deep water tank, etc. It was great.
really drove a Cayenne at its full potential before ?? Just wondering, because this forum should be about the car from people who know or share or care or have or interested in the car in one way or another. Instead it has become a forum for CAy/Porsche bashing. It would be ok since I am a believer of democracy. But most of the bashers know nothing of this car besides what they read and concentrated on its perceived negative side: it is heavy and Porsche should not build a SUV. I have tried to read everything I can about this vehicle, and find it truly amazing. I hear no one, not one person say the fiberoptic MOST system is state of art, oil spray injection of the pistons, ability to tackle both desert/mud/offroad terrains, dry sump lubrication, etc. The most recent Truckin SUV magazine Oct. 2003 , said many many good things about it. 2 negative things are: 1-it has a polarizing style. 2- it costs more than most SUVs. But the rest was entirely positive. Is everyone a pessimist, "the glass is half empty " kind of person, who only open their mouth to blow up something ??? Please at least read about the car in the edmunds car review. Its ok to hate the styling and the heaviness, but at least be informed.
As for me, I wasn't bashing the Cayenne at all. I own one and I think it's great (although I haven't driven it to its full potential as isn't broken in yet). I just don't don't think an "economy" Cayenne sounds like a good idea, at least in the U.S.
I am with you whole 9 yards. My simple belief is own one and than comment (About performance) and I am totally at peace with myself about the CAY looks It is just not worth arguing with some one on the looks about their vehicles vs. Cay. They bought what they liked and we bought what we liked.
I know Cay is heavy but it is for a good reason. Porsche was not adding the weight just for the sake of.. Being light weight is not the only virtue in a vehicle. What matters is how it handles the weight. It is my first Porsche and sure will not be the last. In fact I am wondering when Porsche will come out with a S Class / A8 / 7 series beater. I will sign up for that in a heart beat. Till that time Cay rocks and everytime I get behind the steering wheel, it is a driving heaven.
The reason Porsche has so much riding on the Cay is because they want the profits from it in order to do what they really wanted to do more than a SUV - a sedan! If the Cay V6 takes off worldwide I think we'll see a Porsche sedan in several years (4-5 probably given Porsche's slow but proven development process.)
As an aside my wife and I took a Cay S out for a real performance oriented romp and were VERY impressed (we didn't like the aligator skin dash but the leather dash option fixes that.) All-in-all the Cay is a very impressive vehicle if it meets your needs (unfortunately we may need the occasional third row so we'll get a Volvo XC90 Executive with a chip when it comes out later this year in the U.S. - it'll run well with a chip but it will never sound like the Cay V8 under a heavy foot I'm afraid.)
was named best SUV by ROBB Report's annual "Best of the Best" edition. Range Rover was on the list a year or two ago.
Don't know when the V6 will come.
jeffreybehr: great seeing those photos on your web site. I like the cusstom wheels. Love the offroad pictures !!! Have not taken my car over 120 mph yet, but will consider the Buttonwillow racetrack or the rural highways that you suggested. Isn't the car amazing ?? One thing that a lot of people complain about was the fuel economy. Yes, the city mpg is low, around 13 mpg, but freeway driving is an amazing 18 to 19 mpg !! This is similar to my 4 cylinder Toyota Previa, wwwith only 164 hp. The cay weighs more and can do more with its flexible engine. Exotic car performance with fuel economy of a family minivan. It seems like I can have my cake and eat it too. WOW. The X5, ML and Rover have similar fuel economies, but cannot match the performance.
It definitely has enough horses. 340hp, but feels like more. Our friend was afraid he would scare his wife, so he took it easy around the course. then they switched drivers, and she just took off like a bat out of hell, and scared the bejeesus out of her husband and the instructor. She didn't hit any cones but turned in a very fast time. It weighs less than the TT. Just love it...... it is a super SUV..!
I too agree this is not a good idea for Porsche. Like the 924 and 944 whose life was short or too long depending on you look at it, it did not give Porsche a good name.
As for the Cay TT, I've had it for 2 months and absolutely love it. It's fast, luxurious and it's an SUV. This is my first Porsche and it definitely has impressed me. I sold my BMW 2000 540iT wagon just a few days ago and I don't miss it all.
The one item I don't get is the constant "this car is ugly" theme. I've had so many gawkers at this car, it's unbelievable. Everybody that have seen my car love the style. I have to admit, when I saw it in pictures many months ago, I didn't like the look but up close and personal, it is very cool looking indeed.
So, to all who don't like the look, you're definitely looking at pictures and not the real thing.
Here in the UK its attracted a lot of attention and everyone says what a great looking car it is.
We have just spent 3 weeks in France (Sept) and we tow a trailer with it. The French have had the Cayenne since early in the year and on our recent trip every where we parked they would come up to the car and give it the once over. Not one person gave it the thumbs down.
joemil: I think that there is room for the V6 for those who want all the electronics and 4x4 credibility, but somehow prefer the more economical V6. This could be a blue/white collar worker who likes to go offroad or skiing, or someone in the third world countries. Please see my previous posts about the other markets of Porsche. It would make the car available to more people. Also it would make the quota of 12500 cars sell better. That is the reality of life. We can't all drive TTs, M3s,SL55's, though the manufacturer's would be willing to limit their product line and thus limit costs if we all did. Yes , you are right that it will dilute the brand name. I just don't see how else to move all these great but costly cars. This economy is not supportive of the dotcom conspicuous consumption. I'm glad you love your TT. We love ours too. I keep wanting to drive it. Funny thing is that under normal driving conditions, the turbo hardly kicks in. The 340 hp is perhaps enough for spirited (though not extreme) driving.Good to talk to you fellow enthusiasts.
great picture ! People claim that we don't use our cars to its full potential, but looks to me that owners are excited about the Cay's many features. I have not yet towed anything yet, but have gone offroad. Will take it up to Tahoe this winter.
By the way, this month's(October 2003)Petersen's 4Wheel & Offroad magazine did a first drive of the Toureg, and went to the MOAB !! It did the Hell's Revenge and Tip Over Challenge courses, and they did not even lock up the differentials ! These people live and breath offroad, and they loved the Toureg and its platform & 4x4 abilities. On page 110, it says "Fear this 4x4" and gives rave reviews of the Cay. This is not a paper tiger SUV... it roars, leaps and bites..!! harry
Comments
Just my 2 cents (and that's what it's probably worth!)
Watch for new Cayenne ads during the US Open (link, Chicago Sun Times).
Steve, Host
I'm sure that the "brains" there know this and that when the supply reaches a critical point they will have to make a program. If not they are really charging a premium to the lease clients.
Maybe the V6 will be more aggressively priced.
Steve, Host
I'm sure that the "brains" there know this and that when the supply reaches a critical point they will have to make a program. If not they are really charging a premium to the lease clients.
Maybe the V6 will be more aggressively priced.
I used to do that myself and had basically determined my car choices by lease payment until I tested the Cayenne, it changed me.
I fell in love with this car and bought one, I decided to buy it instead of leasing for financial reasons tho, the tax break.
The lease rates I was offered were better than those offered by BMW (I was not looking for a 3.0 which is more retail oriented but for the 4.4 which BMW control supply tightly of to maintain pricing) FYI You can get a Cayenne for about 740 per month lease.
I agree
Porsche traditionally was an enthusiasts car; and people bought because they "wanted to own the car"
However, times have changed, and a lot of people would lease a Porsche if given the chance. The tax advantages are there, especially for the CAyenne, so it makes good financial sense to increase its market share. There will be higher stocks of lease returns, but that is also good; it allows others to get the car for a good price.
The broader SUV market has absolutely no need for a V8, as a matter of fact I personally believe an I4 (from the 968 parts bin) would be wonderful if matched with a hydraulically driven (via the power steering pump) variable speed supercharger that only "spins-up" during acceleration.
And there is little or no need (broader market) for a low-range gearbox.
Trim off about 1000lbs and price it equal to the X5 and overwhelm the market.
With the emphasis on better fuel economy, lighter weight,etc, manufacturers are concurring that the extra four-wheel drive hardware is rarely used and just dead weight.
New electronic traction-control systems can get you out of many traction loss situations. Many SUVs are ill-equipped for even semi-off-road anyway (lack of LSD/Lock on both axles,etc).
Most SUV drivers want the tough look, the high seating position, and the perceived protection factor. They don't want the gas mileage from the weight now that SoCal gas is getting above $2.50 per gallon for Premium (which in Calif is max 91 octane, specially blended for smog and less mileage as a result).
Here in San Diego, we have our share of off-road Ho-Daddies, driving H2s and other overkill off-road vehicles. Most never see any dirt.
The owner of a differential rebuilding firm here called Pro-Gear makes a killing off rebuilding and re-sealing front differentials that are never used. They die from seal decay and dry-out,lack of lube circulation which causes rusted bearings. The old saying use it or lose it is certainly true here.
According to PCNA member Dom Miliano, who is a 911 enthusiast, he was doubtful of it being a real Porsche. He drove the "S" Cay to the PCNA Parade, and loved it. See Excellence magazine,October 2003, pp128. These are not cars with super swamper gigantic mud tires, lifted 3 ft high, with a rear cargo area that never sees cargo. fx45 and Cay are everyday cars that can do, triathletes that are for the real world. Yes, I agree with you (W West) that Porsche can try to capture more market share by designing perhaps an entry level car with awd, or a minivan. I used to drive a 968 and love its torque and speed and gas mileage.
Did anyone read the scathing review of the Cay in the latest Automobile mag. It's at the end of the mag and I must say that after driving the Cay myself I do agree with some of his points. I too was expecting more, maybe unrealistically high expectations due to the Porsche name.
I agree with him that the X5 feels more expensive and solid. It was one of the main reasons I got it. That's not to make anyone wrong for getting a Cay. The most important aspect of anyone's choice is that They like it. We are all different and don't have to agree on what makes a vehicle exciting, entertaining, enjoyable etc.
After test driving the Cay I was happy to get back into my 330i with the great satisfaction that it handled better and was a better driving machine than a Porsche! Of course the Porsche was a truck, kind of..
The X5 has a great engine sound and I love the steering. Hopefully it will be as reliable as my 330. I AM looking forward to one day driving a 911 and maybe, just maybe I will fall in love with it.
I really think porsche missed the boat and should have kept it's exclusivity by just producing the TT. The S is to close to the Touareg and the V6 is gonna be a joke. It will not be a good day when the VW TDI beats the Cay S and has a 5k price advantage. The TT is however "THE" 4wd machine. that and the blown S8 are probably the best awd vehicles with 4 doors.
We like the unique blend of performance and offroad ability. We think it does the most in one single car, kinda like a watered down batmobile. It will not go faster than a 911 turbo or ferrari, nor go where jeeps and H1/H2 can go. But its unique blend does provide the most flexibility. Perhaps many expected the fx45 to be the Porsche, and rightly so. What Porsche tried to do was combine a X5 with a M3, or a G35 with a Q4. They tried their best, and only history will tell if that is what consumers want. For pure onroad daily usage, it is enough. Hey, it weighs 5200 lbs, add fluids and passengers and we are looking at close to 5600 lbs, it can go 165 mph and still get 18 to 19 mpg !! Isn't that good ? In my opinion, I think it is an engineering marvel. I am reading the Cayenne book( not the owners manual , but the actual hardbound book).
Glad to hear you guys are enjoying your cars. BMW did do a great job with little 4x4 experience. Fx45 looks and handles great and is a true sports car.
Then got in line for the performance onroad. You get to try both. my wife took the S, I got the TT...great! The race instructor let me floor it, and gave some advice. I tried to step on the brakes while going thru the slalom, but he said, "no brakes, just turn and lean with the car", So I got more courage and tried to accelerate around corners and out too. WOW, its a blast. I think all should try this with whatever carsyou have, it was great !! The event was not as overbooked as the GM Autoshowinmotion. Negative part was that they only had Cay, no other SUV to test and compare, no boxsters no 911. Everyone loved the experience. Find out from your dealer when it comes to your neighborhood, it is free, free food , free T shirt, great fun, plus very educational.
The professional driver told me to never underhand the steering wheel, because it limits quick response, and could push your arm into your face if the airbag goes off. Good info, good advice on offroad and onroad driving.
Are you talking about noon instead of six perhaps?
Steve, Host
You can register online at www.cayenne-experience.com . or call the hotline at 1-888-376-8268. Just like the GM show, this one has no salesmen and no hassles. Just info if you want and a free poster and free T shirt ($25 in the Porsche catalog)! They are going around the country.
Sorry Steve, I am not advertising for Por., just thought it was nice to have a no hassle free event for edmunds fans to enjoy no matter what car they drive. Heck, most people hate the cay.
Steve, Host
Also, the Turbos have their own oil pumps, which continue to circulate oil to cool the turbos after engine shutoff. This extends the turbo's life span.
The Cay's electro-technical and electronic equipment costs almost as much as the engine; $25,000 to $30,000.
The reason they do not come in 19 or 20" wheels is that some people want the softer ride and offroad ability of the 18" wheels. But I still think we should get a choice without the $2000 extra charge.
A manufacturer isn't degrading its quality if the lowered price is simply due to choosing a more modest engine, especially if it's still the sort of engine that Porsche usually includes in its cars. It just means that the same acceleration won't be there.
Now, on the other hand, if Porsche said that they were going to start using a Volkswagen VR6 engine in the Cayenne, I'd be concerned!
Also, on the subject of the Jaguar X-Type that was mentioned: I don't really think that it's a dilution of Jaguar's brand either. It should still have Jaguar reliability, still has much of the luxury, and is certainly styled like one for the most part. The only thing I don't like is that the rear looks a bit too much like that of a Taurus.
Porsche moves out of fast lane with Cayenne V6
Porsche used to make the 924, 944, etc, which were not exactly super car performers.
People in Asia, Middle East, Europe, Mexico, etc have more need of V6 Cay than America, but there will always be some people who like the economy.
The Cayenne Twin Turbo is still the fastest production SUV, actual speed of 165 mph at Nardo race track in Italy. The fastest aftermarket SUv is the Kleeman ML55 supercharged, 607 hp, 175 mph. Lingefelter put a twin turbo V8 in a SONOMA with 732 hp.
I drove the H2 offroad course, and it was a baby course, did not really challenge the car or drivers. The Cayenne offroad course was more challenging, bigger hills that had me going on two diagonal wheels, long uphill at 30 deg, sideways ramp at 30+ DEG, deep holes with no visible bottom, 2 ft deep water tank, etc. It was great.
I have tried to read everything I can about this vehicle, and find it truly amazing. I hear no one, not one person say the fiberoptic MOST system is state of art, oil spray injection of the pistons, ability to tackle both desert/mud/offroad terrains, dry sump lubrication, etc. The most recent Truckin SUV magazine Oct. 2003 , said many many good things about it. 2 negative things are: 1-it has a polarizing style. 2- it costs more than most SUVs. But the rest was entirely positive. Is everyone a pessimist, "the glass is half empty " kind of person, who only open their mouth to blow up something ??? Please at least read about the car in the edmunds car review. Its ok to hate the styling and the heaviness, but at least be informed.
I know Cay is heavy but it is for a good reason. Porsche was not adding the weight just for the sake of.. Being light weight is not the only virtue in a vehicle. What matters is how it handles the weight. It is my first Porsche and sure will not be the last. In fact I am wondering when Porsche will come out with a S Class / A8 / 7 series beater. I will sign up for that in a heart beat. Till that time Cay rocks and everytime I get behind the steering wheel, it is a driving heaven.
The reason Porsche has so much riding on the Cay is because they want the profits from it in order to do what they really wanted to do more than a SUV - a sedan! If the Cay V6 takes off worldwide I think we'll see a Porsche sedan in several years (4-5 probably given Porsche's slow but proven development process.)
As an aside my wife and I took a Cay S out for a real performance oriented romp and were VERY impressed (we didn't like the aligator skin dash but the leather dash option fixes that.) All-in-all the Cay is a very impressive vehicle if it meets your needs (unfortunately we may need the occasional third row so we'll get a Volvo XC90 Executive with a chip when it comes out later this year in the U.S. - it'll run well with a chip but it will never sound like the Cay V8 under a heavy foot I'm afraid.)
Thanks.
-rollie
rdollie@att.net
Thanks,
Matt
Don't know when the V6 will come.
jeffreybehr: great seeing those photos on your web site. I like the cusstom wheels. Love the offroad pictures !!! Have not taken my car over 120 mph yet, but will consider the Buttonwillow racetrack or the rural highways that you suggested. Isn't the car amazing ?? One thing that a lot of people complain about was the fuel economy. Yes, the city mpg is low, around 13 mpg, but freeway driving is an amazing 18 to 19 mpg !! This is similar to my 4 cylinder Toyota Previa, wwwith only 164 hp. The cay weighs more and can do more with its flexible engine. Exotic car performance with fuel economy of a family minivan. It seems like I can have my cake and eat it too. WOW. The X5, ML and Rover have similar fuel economies, but cannot match the performance.
I too agree this is not a good idea for Porsche. Like the 924 and 944 whose life was short or too long depending on you look at it, it did not give Porsche a good name.
As for the Cay TT, I've had it for 2 months and absolutely love it. It's fast, luxurious and it's an SUV. This is my first Porsche and it definitely has impressed me. I sold my BMW 2000 540iT wagon just a few days ago and I don't miss it all.
The one item I don't get is the constant "this car is ugly" theme. I've had so many gawkers at this car, it's unbelievable. Everybody that have seen my car love the style. I have to admit, when I saw it in pictures many months ago, I didn't like the look but up close and personal, it is very cool looking indeed.
So, to all who don't like the look, you're definitely looking at pictures and not the real thing.
Here in the UK its attracted a lot of attention and everyone says what a great looking car it is.
We have just spent 3 weeks in France (Sept) and we tow a trailer with it. The French have had the Cayenne since early in the year and on our recent trip every where we parked they would come up to the car and give it the once over. Not one person gave it the thumbs down.
http://www.btinternet.com/~harryrogers/cayennebuc.jpg
We love ours and it's a thrill to drive every day.
Harry
First Turbo owner to tow a trailer in the UK.
Yes , you are right that it will dilute the brand name. I just don't see how else to move all these great but costly cars. This economy is not supportive of the dotcom conspicuous consumption.
I'm glad you love your TT. We love ours too. I keep wanting to drive it. Funny thing is that under normal driving conditions, the turbo hardly kicks in. The 340 hp is perhaps enough for spirited (though not extreme) driving.Good to talk to you fellow enthusiasts.
By the way, this month's(October 2003)Petersen's 4Wheel & Offroad magazine did a first drive of the Toureg, and went to the MOAB !! It did the Hell's Revenge and Tip Over Challenge courses, and they did not even lock up the differentials ! These people live and breath offroad, and they loved the Toureg and its platform & 4x4 abilities. On page 110, it says "Fear this 4x4" and gives rave reviews of the Cay.
This is not a paper tiger SUV... it roars, leaps and bites..!!
harry