Low End Sedans (under $16k)

dweezil · June 2001

an Asian vehicle before. For some reason though, I'm fascinated by the Korean offerings and the news coming from that sector of the business.
They're growing in the same market the Japanese did in the late 60's and during the 70's.And one they seem to have forgotten. {and the U.S. never tried very hard in...STILL]. Not a bad marketing model.And can almost hear the echoes of the commentary about them as re:Korean brands,but in that era it was VW you'd be comparing against the Japanese.
Have spent a lot of time haunting the Hyundai dealer checking out their cars.They're nicely crafted nice to look at and I would actually consider several of their offerings all the way up to the xg300[?]..[give the damn thing a name,please].And not to start the style thing again.... but I prefer their looks to the Japanese makes much as I prefer the Focus 4door or wagon[NOT the 2 door],the Cavalier[still nice after all these years, lol] or the Neon over them as well.
Personally, depreciation does not concern me as I keep cars for wayyyyy past their prime trade-in value anyway.[I've had a 63 Plymouth Valiant Signet 2dr. hardtop for 20 years.]
A prior post took note of the fact that all cars are vastly improved over just 15 years ago and that is sooo true. Try some of the cars from the 70's and only a Yugo would still be lousy, so even if the cars have 250 problems from 100 is what? 2.5 per car? In the 70's the average recorded by consumer reports was something like 12 to 15 per car. The worst was a 74 Dodge Coronet wagon with 57 defects.We've come a long way, so what looks "bad" these days is probably still at least acceptable or not unexpected.So I'd have no fear of buying a Korean car. The Leganza is a nice looking vehicle as well and I hope Daewoo makes it.
I'm tired of the Japanese mantra as well, BUT, that doesn't change the fact that they remain at the top of the charts as regards reliability and build quality. I think they need the Koreans to create some fire in their styling departments tho.It's an interesting era we're living in,just wish all these studies and tests and regulations and institutional busy bodies would stop already and quit trying to squeeze the last bit of pleasure out of automobiles. You can run yourself into the ground chasing minutiae to find the "best" car and be totally paranoid afterward by some "report"or study or something you found out on the Internet.Takes all the joy out of the simple pleasure of a new car.And that's sad to me.
My first new car:99 Cavalier and I love it, no problems,nearly 20,000 miles, but after reading everything on Edmund's available I wasn't able to look at it the same for 2 weeks.The posts ran the gamut.
All I know is that it's been a completely enjoyable vehicle, with more safety equipment than I had on my other car, an 86 Calais, is better built but pretty average and I know I'll still like looking at it long after I've paid for it.The mileage has been great.[4speed auto.]
Would I try to convince anyone on this topic to buy one, No.Just to explain that all our priorities are different.This car suited mine perfectly and I haven't been disappointed.
I simply like the fact that there are a few players actually trying to produce reasonably good looking, efficient and inexpensive cars. The Big Three and the Japanese makes have handed it over to Koreans at this point.I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen.Nite all.

majorthomecho · June 2001

Supreme,

The fact that the asking price for a used Sephia was more than what you paid for a same year new Sephia is NOT the same as the asking price for a used Echo being higher than the original MSRP.

majorthomecho · June 2001

Is your sister's name Moon Unit, by any chance? ; ) For those who don't know, Frank Zappa named a daughter Moon Unit and a son Dweezil.

Anyway, you seem pretty level headed and able to see both sides of an issue so I have a question for you.

You made reference to the Japanese mantra. Just what is that?

majorthomecho · June 2001

Iluv claimed that Kia thought of the driver when building the Sephia.

Well, you know what? Toyota thought of all the occupants when they designed the Echo.

Most cars are designed with a look in mind first and the passenger compartment is almost an afterthought. Toyota did the opposite with the Echo. They designed the interior first and then did the exterior.

It is this new way of thinking that causes the WiLL to look the way it does also.

For anyone who has not seen the WiLL, the website is whatswill.com.

dweezil · June 2001

wasn't meant to be nasty, should have phrased it differently. It's just what people say when they've heard it over and over again:"Japanese cars are superior to[fill in the blank]". And even as a domestic car lover who has never owned a Japanese car, I have to admit that it's true. Sort of an "urban legend" that happens to be true. lol.Even people who don't know squat about cars will tell you the same thing: a friend of a friend or a relative or....had one and they never had a problem with it. It's the kind of word of mouth that goes beyond any sort of hype the auto companies could PAY for!!!And it's more true than not.More often.AKA:"common knowledge".
No, I'm not related to Frank Zappa, just need a name with enough letters to log on!
Have really enjoyed these posts.People are passionate. Saw about three different Echoes today. They're strange, but to me in the same way a 58 Rambler American must have been parked next to a Continental MK II!!!The head room and seating position are fantastic. The center dash pod....well, that is a mite different...lol.
Have suggested the Echo or the Elantra to my folks. They see them on the road and ask me what I know about them. If they go new that's probably where they'll wind up. They drive the Calais now and love it.Think my Mother has turned into an enthusiast!
I will say that the comment about certain of these lower end cars being sort of tinny is true. Something I miss about the Olds was the solid feel to it and the substance of the doors.It handled like it was on rails. The Cavalier was almost a direct new replacement in size weight and room. The ride is better it's quiet in a different way, but hollow sounding where the Olds never was.And the Olds was a take off on the J platform. Sort of weird;not that distant a relative even now and its been 15 years!

iluvmysephia1 · June 2001

Hey, dweezil, how 'ya doing? Welcome to our friendly little exchange of Asian and Korean auto information. Yes, the "mantra" thing is understood. My posts get passionate towards my Kia Sephia and the more people put the car down the more I like it. I like it's looks and I like it's performance and I like it's reliability. Yes, it's been in for 2 recalls and had one part replaced that's covered by warranty(it was the airbag module). All 3 repairs were done in a grand total of around 4 hours give or take a whisker. There was cheap coffee and conversation about Kia's to be had with salesmen while it was being done and of course it costed me nothing. The Sephia's had a brake job already(at 64,300 miles)including front rotor replacement and front disc pads. We went with heavier duty disc pads this time. 64,300 miles is a tad too soon to be needing a full front brake job and that is something that people have complained about on their pre-2000 Sephia's. Kia went to a larger brake in model year 2000 and that seems to have fixed the problems. Everything is working and sounding fine with my brakes and I'll just pay attention to it as I go. Not really concerned about it. One thing I notice with light bulb relacements is the Sephia burns about 1/5th of the light bulbs out that my Ford Escorts did. Not a big deal but I've definitely noticed the difference. The engine is plenty peppy for the small body and starting is never a problem. Handling is great and gas mileage is around 33mpg with lots of highway driving. Dweezil, your comment about The Big 3 and the Japanese makers "handing the job of designing good looking, inexpensive and efficient cars over to the Koreans" hits the nail on the head. They have and I took a try at a Korean car and I'm not intending on looking back.

bri70 · June 2001

"There was cheap coffee and conversation about Kia's to be had with salesmen while it was being done..."

Well that is certainly looking at the bright side of a recall. LOL.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with much of what you have to say, but I can do without the recalls.

dweezil · June 2001

There's a great deal of choice out there now, sort of like in the early 50's when you had Hudson, Studebaker, Packard, Kaiser, Nash and Willys and were starting to hear of weird makes like Borgward, VW, Wartburg, Renault and some of the other foreign cars. It makes for great armchair quarterbacking.
Just before I went to sleep last night,I finally realized where Toyota was going with the Echo. It's really a "retro" deign, in that a lot of late 50's/ early 60's Fiats and British cars had very similar shapes.I finally got it and the more I see them, the more obvious that becomes. Pretty clever.
I'm disappointed to see this end abandoned, especially by GM. The "J" is according to GM's own stats a large number of people's first intro to their cars. As such, they haven't spent the time or energy on it to allow it to represent what's available up the scale, but go for the fast buck and hope to make up for it with lots of SUV sales.With the Japanese makes, that first one makes you think there's even better up the product chain, or at least as good.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Cavalier,but I don't think any significant improvements have been made since the 95 was introduced except for offering the 4 speed auto or the Getrag 5 speed a year ago.That's criminal,the car itself is pretty pleasant.There used to be virtue in avoiding planned obsolescence, now you never hear of it.

dougndo · June 2001

My first car was a '59 Dodge that cost $50 when I got it in 1967. Later I built a '60 Plymouth Fury out of two wrecked cars I bought for a total of $125. When I paid $900 for a '56 Studebaker Skyhawk President, I thought I'd never pay that much for a car again.

In the '80s and'90s, I leased or owned a Renault Alliance, Dodge Colt, Dodge Shadow, Nissan Sentra, Nissan 200SX SE-R, Dodge Neon, Chevy Nova, Mitsubishi Mirage, and Honda Civic as "entry level" autos (in addition to more expensive trucks, minivans, SUVs, sedans, and convertibles). Most of these entry level autos had prices that ranged from around $6000 in the '80s to close to $11,000 in the '90s. The SE-R was an exception at nearly $14,000.

Now in this forum we're talking low end as being less than $20,000. Yikes! Does anyone want to guess how much my first house and five acres cost? (Try $7800.)

If we stick to cars whose MSRP STARTS BELOW $14,999, then we clear the field considerably. That pretty much eliminates European cars, including the repriced Golf. That leaves about 8 American cars, 8 Japanese, and 10 Korean. Of course there are a multiplicity of variations (2-door, four-door, wagon, hatchback, etc.).

So, what's the point? Well, two points, actually: 1) There is a good distribution of low end cars from the US, Japan, and Korea; 2) the Accord, Camry, and Galant don't fit in my definition of low end car. (The Hyundai Sonata squeaked in but the Kia Rio didn't.) Now the task might be to do some winnowing.

So is $14,999 too low for a low end car in 2001? If 26 vehicles make the cut, I'd say it's a good demarcation point.

dweezil · June 2001

about the shock value of the sticker price. I know things have changed but......
Seems as if the manufacturers are not even TRYING to keep the prices down. It's an amazing thing though, that so many features that were the exclusive province of luxury cars so long ago have become common equipment on even the least expensive cars.
Small doesn't necessarily mean inexpensive,simple or uncomplicated.
I have a hard time thinking about 20,000 dollars being spent on any car, much less a "bottom end" one.The condo I bought in 1994 was 50,000; not so long ago. Sold it for 69,000 4 years later and this in L.A.
I just wonder if a car can even be sold any longer without all the extra slop on it.The Elantra I believe even has power windows as standard equipment [just something else to go wrong down the road] and while a base price may seem attractive to buy a couple of options you have to take an entire package of things you may never need or want.
While I like your cut off point; In a year or so there may be no cars available at even that price,*0).Who'll enter the market then? Proton? Will we see the Hindustan Ambassador finally? Dacia? I shudder to think what will be available then...........call it"Yugo's Revenge"?

stebu · June 2001

I don't disagree that prices are escalating and the $15K point might be a good watermark for entry level. But, I can't see why all the whining about price (geez I hate to say that since I sound like my father!!). Fact is, the cost of ownership, at least as a percentage of typical earnings, hasn't changed that much over the years. In fact, it may have decreased somewhat.

I know I'm dating myself but... My first brand new car, a '74 VW Beetle, was one of that decades entry level vehicles. I paid about $3K which, at the time, was almost 40% of my yearly wage and I was making decent entry level union wages back then. Heck, I was able to buy my first home for about $30K the following year with only a couple of modest pay raises in between.

Now, throw in the vastly improved product (the VW didn't even have a fan to heat the interior) we get today and these cars ALL start to look pretty darn good. However, I realize this is all relative and $15K is still $15K and that IS a lot of money. I just don't think the burden has gotten any worse with time.

carleton1 · June 2001

Specific case: NEW Oddysey EX for my zip code on May 20, 2001:
MSRP........................................$26,840
Edmund's TMV...........................$28,120
Sister's NEW Ody EX on May22....$26,660

Edmund's TMV was $1,460 MORE than the actual selling price. Isn't TMV supposed to be the actual price one should pay?

majorthomecho · June 2001

I wonder if everyone should submit a list of what cars they consider low end cars rather than have a dollar figure.

If we made the max $20,000 for the definition of a low end car, wouldn't that mean that the Camry is a low end car since you can get some sort of Camry for under that?

I don't know about you, but the Camry is not my idea of a low end car.

majorthomecho · June 2001

Dweezil, I was not insulted. I was just curious. I did not know that there was a mantra and I own a Japanese car.

jstandefer · June 2001

We should probably define a low-end car as a manufacturer's entry-level model(s) that starts under $15,000. And that's MSRP, not what you can get it for after discounts and rebates. Since every state is different and we are all from different states, MSRP is the only fair way to compare. So that brings the list to the following:

Domestic Manufacturers
Chevrolet... Cavalier, Metro
Dodge... Neon
Ford... Focus
Pontiac... Sunfire
Saturn... S-series (SC, SL, SW)

German Manufacturers
Volkswagen... Golf

Korean Manufacturers
Daewoo... Lanos, Nubira
Hyundai... Accent, Elantra
Kia... Rio, Sephia

Japanese Manufacturers
Honda... Civic
Mazda... Protege
Mitsubishi... Mirage
Nissan... Sentra
Suzuki... Swift, Esteem
Toyota... Echo, Corolla

That's 21 vehicles that I would consider "low-end". Note that I put them in alphabetical order (before I get flamed because someone's favorite is below another car). Some cars were well under the $15,000 barrier, while others barely squeaked by (VW Golf at $14,900). Including some of the midsize cars that fall under $20k just wouldn't be "low-end" anymore (just try going to the Accord and/or Camry board and call that car "low-end").

dweezil · June 2001

That's cool.You're funny.Sometimes I think I'm hearing things *).
Not whining about prices,because it IS relative, stebu, as you've correctly pointed out.In addition I believe we are getting the best interest rates since the 60's.Don't worry about dating yourself;my folks bought a 72 AMC Ambassador Brougham that listed at $5000.oo and the price made my heart constrict even then and I was barely old enough to drive.It's just a normal reaction I think.5 figures seems like a lot more than 4, and yet some of the equipment on even the least expensive cars was never ever available on anything but Cadillacs, Lincolns or BMWs at ANY price.The MK III had an anti skid system available as an option in 1969, now every car has as std. or as an option.
I just wish there was a car out there engineered to be simple to fix and build right out of the box.
Don't know if it's possible any longer, though the Saturn comes close,with it's removable panels and underhood layout.
There hasn't been much discussion about the Saturn among the posts. Have they become so dated that they are no longer competitive?

dweezil · June 2001

I think price is an issue here simply because at the lower end it is a critical factor for that first car/ second car and even in some cases graduation present. When you are just starting out your resources are limited.
In MY case, however, it matters because I'm a cheap s.o.b. who hasn't forgotten what it was like to have to scrape by, schlep radiators and flat tires, dead batteries across town, sometimes on the bus, sometimes with a shopping cart and back again, because that's what I had to do to get my car running again.,} I learned thrift at an early age and never forgot.I learned the difference between want and need, so I really couldn't justify buying a new car when the old one was still reliable.Until recently when I bought that bloody Cavalier that I found so attractive because I WANTED IT.Even then, I had a psychological price point where I just would not cross.Got it new with air, spoiler[I know;but it was already on the car!] and 4 speed auto for 11,808 , 2 years ago this coming Monday.
Just wanted to know what having a new car was like before I'm so old my license gets yanked.Even tightwads have to unbend a little once in awhile!!!

jstandefer · June 2001

I really don't think Saturn was ever very competetive. Like we used to tell customers who mentioned Saturn... "Saturn is selling you a service first, car second." The dealership experience may be first-rate, but the cars themselves are far from it. And they're expensive for what you get.

Car and Driver ranked the SL2 ninth out of thirteen cars in their "Small Cars" comparison test last year. Even though it was the most expensive car of the bunch, it ranked last in rear seat comfort, near the bottom in front seat comfort, and last in quality. They complained of super-low-grade plastics, poor fabric, and a definite lack of room. It had a strong engine but terrible shifter, brakes, and below-average handling.

There have been many rumors about Saturn's demise. As GM cuts and consolidates, Saturn is not looking very good. The company has never turned a profit and sales have drastically slacked off as the "Different Kind of Company" started to go on strike and GM had to step in and take over. It was a good attempt, certainly stronger than the Geo line of vehicles. However, in the next ten to twenty years, we will see a lot of lines go away and become consolidated. We have already seen two in the past year... Plymouth and Oldsmobile.

dougndo · June 2001

I think jstandefer's list is a good one. The Daewoo Leganza, Saturn L, and Hyundai Sonata also come in under $15,000 MSRP in their base configurations, but I have no problem leaving them off the list, especially since I paid around $18,000 for a 2001 Sonata GLS Leather and don't think of it as a low end car.

I would say that the Golf is a questionable entry. I sold VW/Audi/Porsche up until seven months ago, and we never, ever saw a base Golf come in. Even attempting to order one resulted in a 3 month wait from VW, which resulted in customers looking elsewhere or moving up to the readily available models (well above $16,000).

One model which should be included on the list is the Hyundai Tiburon, which comes in at $14,499, and is a spunky, tossable coupe at that price.

Otherwise, it's a good list, and it shows we have lots of choices.

stebu · June 2001

"I just wish there was a car out there engineered to be simple to fix and build right out of the box."

Amen to that!!! There is nothing scarier then peeking under the hood of one of these, so called, entry level cars. Something as simple as air filtration now has all sorts of ECU monitored sensors and meters that practically require an automotive engineering degree and the manual dexterity of a watch maker before one dares to modify anything.

In contrast, I recall working on an old 74 AMC Sportabout wagon that I briefly owned. When it started running a little rough, I just ripped all the PCV and smog hoses off the car and plugged any leftover holes with wine corks... it ran great! And when I had to change it's radiator, I was able to stand IN the engine compartment while unhooking things. Times sure have changed.

stebu · June 2001

And another thing, I wouldn't worry too much about your license getting yanked. Pretty soon these cars will be driving themselves.

There already are signs of it in the high end cars where the distance sensing cruise controls are showing up. It's just a matter of time before it finds its way into a Hyundai or a Cavalier.

dougndo · June 2001

Looking at the list of 20 or so vehicles, are there any opinions (based on objective AND subjective criteria) about who's at the bottom and who's at the top?

I've only owned one of the Americans, but I've rented some of the others. The Neon (owned it) and the Saturn were unsatisfactory in my experience. My stint with a Focus was encouraging, albeit I was not taken by its looks. Some reports say it is a bit problem prone, too.

I've sold and driven a ton of Golfs, but like I said, I don't think it belongs here. It's a fun and functional car, especially if you move up to GTI territory, but then it's many thousands out of this range. It's reliability and workmanship are suspect, unfortunately.

The Elantra and the Tiburon seem to be the cream of the Korean crop. I looked at all the Korean cars before purchasing a Sonata. I leased a 2000 Tiburon last year. The Kias and Daewoos I test drove just didn't match up, even though they were in many ways superior to the bottom rung American cars and at a much better price.

My ownership experience with Japanese cars includes the Sentra, Civic, and Mirage, but I've only test driven the most current models, plus I rented an Echo. The Mirage seemed cheap. The new Sentra was nice, but bland and soulless, and the Civic was unremarkable. Based on my past experience, these are probably solid cars, but they're boring. The Echo (like the Focus) challenged my visual preferences, but it seemed pretty solid overall and had a distinct feel to it. It was not boring. The dash was bizarre in a deja vu sort of way: it got me thinking about a few International Scouts I owned where the bulk of the instrumentation was decidedly to the right of the steering column. Among the Japanese entries, the Echo probably wins the "bang for the buck" honors.

That's an overview of my experience. What's yours?

dweezil · June 2001

Thanks for the laughs, Just woke me up enough to get ready for work.Like the Hornet, my old Valiant is wonderfully easy to work on. It's a 63, so it doesn't have anything but a PCV.
jstandefer: thanks for the insight on the Saturn. I know the Cavalier is probably about the same level. I test drove them both, but was surprised to find that after you added what was std. on the Chevy[abs, power steering],the price went up quickly.Even considering going without auto.you were in the 13,500 range-and this in 99.Manual just isn't the way to go in Hell-Ay;it's hard to get out of second any time after 10a.m.!!!!
Drove the Saturn without power steering and it wasn't bad, though I'm used to going without in the Valiant [3 on the tree if anyone is interested...I know:NOT! :} ]
More on price:it's a series of trade offs for me;at this point it's about juggling a house payment [and repairs],planning for retirement[years away, but.....],saving for home improvements and upgrades that need to be done,emergency fund and having a little left over to spend without having to think about it.The sort of thinking you'd find with someone whose parents were Depression children.Off to the rock pile, you guys, I'm gonna be late!

kattisha1 · June 2001

I have an opportunity to buy either a ford focus SE or a Nissan Sentra GXE, both 5 speed manuals. The prices are comparable as well as many other aspects of it. I have previously owned a japanese car, but I kind of like the focus.

You opinion, please....which car do you think will give me better long term reliability? (I had my last car for 12 years!) and can you explain why you have your opinion? (people I've spoken to in person say "get the ford...I'm a ford guy" or Get the nissan...don't trust th edomestic cars." But no one talks about the reputaiton of the car company or anything like that.)

majorthomecho · June 2001

I am biased because I own the car, but I think the Echo is the best of the low end cars. At least it is the best for me. A different car may be best for someone else. Which car is best (or best for you) depends on what pushes your automotive buttons.

majorthomecho · June 2001

What else besides reliability pushes your buttons?

dweezil · June 2001

What car did you own for 12 years? That might be a clue;was it a Ford or a Nissan?My friends have owned Sentras of differing generations [86,92,84,and 98]and they've been pretty nice as far as ride and dependability go.Personally though I felt jack-knifed in the seats [driver or passenger]and couldn't get a really comfortable position [oddly in ALL of them no matter what year].
How does one feel over the other? Drive both.How do you fit behind the wheel? Cramped or comfortable? Quiet or loud when you drive it? Look for the livability aspects as well, because after the "new" wears off, you'll really resent making payments on something you can't stand driving every day.
And then there's the button pushing that Major mentioned. Which one gives you a goose? Will it make you grin from ear to ear seeing it parked in your driveway because you KNOW you made the right choice? Or will you walk away from it without a second glance and no memory of the drive home?
Is it a pleasant place to be in a major traffic jam,or look and feel like you're sitting in a dentist's office [THAT will only make a long drive home longer].
I know these are all sensory and emotional responses mixed with some practical aspects,but it's YOUR money and you should be happy on all levels IMHO. Dave

majorthomecho · June 2001

I just had a thought. Perhaps we should pare the list down further by specifying that if a car company has two or more models under $15,000 base MSRP, that the most inexpensive one should be considered the low end offering from that maker.

Thus Echo would be the low end offering from Toyota and Corolla would be pared from the list. The Rio would be considered the low end offering from Kia and the Sephia/Spectra would be pared from the list. And so on.

I guess if we did that though, the list would really be more on the order of "starter" cars and not really low end cars.

Just a thought.

dougndo · June 2001

Assuming you're talking about 2001 models, you'd be getting an all new model from Nissan and a fairly new model from ford. However, the Focus has had some major recalls in its brief history, a fact that is very embarrassing to Ford Motor Company. As I said earlier, the 2001 Sentra seems to lack personality, but it's probably going to be as reliable as Nissans generally, which is pretty good.

I'll agree with Dweezil that I've always had a seating problem in Nissans as well: Sentra, 200SX SE-R, 240 SX, and Altima. I just couldn't ever get really comfortable. I've had a few quality problems here and there with Nissans, but never a recall and never a problem that left the car unusable.

The bumper to bumper warranties are identical on the two cars, but the Nissan drive train warranty is longer. Unfortunately, you may need the longer warranty on the Focus if its repair history stays the same as in its first few years.

majorthomecho · June 2001

FYI, there now has been a recall on the Nissan Sentra. It has to do with bolts on the car.

liljonson · June 2001

everybody has recalls so you can't really say that "oh that car had ONE recall, don't buy it". even the new bentlys had a recall lately, now if you have ford type of recalls then buyer beware.

majorthomecho · June 2001

You missed the point. My comment was based on a previous poster saying that the Sentra had not had any recalls. My post was done more in jest than with a lot of seriousness.

FWIW, my 2001 Echo has had zero recalls and the Echo has only had one recall since it has been on sale in the United States. And that recall was only for cars in cold weather states.

bjfrank42 · June 2001

Most interesting site at Edmunds in my opinion. Lots of heated debates. I shopped for a new car last year. Spent 6 months looking. In my opinion, most of them look alike. The Sephia, Protege, Corolla, Civic, and many others were basically the same car to me. Minor differences, but not enough difference in looks to be a deciding factor. Sorry Major, didn't like the look of the Echo at all. I tend to keep a car til it dies, so resale was not a factor either. Test drove them all. Again not the much of a difference. Chose the Sephia because of price and warranty. Problem is, my wife likes it so much, I rarely get to drive it. I get the Aerostar or the Dakota. After 9 months the only problem I have had is the clock has a short. Keeps resetting. Getting it replaced this week. Guess only time will tell if it was a good purchase. Now to the Japanese/American quality issue. I have noticed something over the last 10 years. It seems the owners of Japanese cars are always taking their cars in for 7500 mile checkups. American car owners (myself included), at least the people I know, don't do that. The Japanese car owners are paying all the time to keep things from breaking and American car owners pay after it breaks. In the long run, I'm not sure which is cheaper but that would cause American cars to have more complaints. I can't believe how much money I've seen my Mazda, Toyota, and Mercedes owning friends spend on these checkups. Maybe I'm completely wrong here, but I've owned American cars for 25 years and have never taken the car to the dealer unless something was wrong. (oil changes excluded). Just my opinion.

mpgman · June 2001

A dealer near me was selling 01 Accord VPs for 14,799 plus freight. Yes, you have to roll the windows with a crank and the only amenities are automatic, air, ps/pb, and 6 speaker AM/FM/CD. Still....it's an Accord for right around the $15k barrier. Suppose one could do a lot worse.

dweezil · June 2001

The Nissan dealer here has "all" 2001 Sentras at $10,699." Then, you get your magnifying glass and read:"All model #42151 in stock without dealer added options at this price." Try to find one without $2000.00 worth of "dealer installed" floor mats $900.oo pin stripes and a $500.00 paint protection treatment!!!
There's a term for that kind of advertising known as "bait and switch". The car exists "somewhere", but we ordinary slobs will never see it. Somehow,"We just sold that one; but we DO have a nicely equipped [fill in the blank] for $16,999.99
before freight, taxes, dealer installed glamour package, documentation fees and prep.We can have you out the door today for $19,275....if you act NOW!"
Would that they actually had more cars WITHOUT all the extraneous junk available. 1 "package" with one item you can actually USE only comes with 7 or 8 others and quickly runs up the price.
I miss the days when you could essentially tailor a car to your specific needs via the options list.

majorthomecho · June 2001

It is fine that you don't like the looks of my car. Not everyone does. People apologize to me about that like it is going to hurt my feelings or something.

I am somewhat confused about your statement on the 7500 mile checkups. Are you saying a checkup at 7500 miles or a checkup every 7500 miles?

My Scheduled Maintenance Guide does suggest maintenance every 5k or 7.5k miles. The maintenance is the same if your Toyota has 5k miles or 7.5miles on it. At this amount of miles, the first maintenance is oil change (with oil filter change, of course) and tire rotation. Therefore if your statement applies to the former, I don't know what your friends are having done when they hit 7500 miles.

I am following intervals of 5k and so my next service is due at 10k. All I have to have done at that point is oil change and tire rotation.

At 15k, I will have the oil changed, rotate tires, and inspect various components.

At 20k, I will have the oil changed and the tires rotated.

The first "major" maintenance is not until 30k where they replace the engine air filter, replace the engine coolant, replace the oil, replace the spark plugs, and rotate the tires.

I don't know about the Sephia, but do you know when I have to replace my drive belt? Never, because the Echo has a drive chain.

Granted I have only had my Echo for about six months, but you want to know how many times I have had it at the dealer for unscheduled maintenance? None.

I am not trying to be insulting but just pointing out that if the past is any future indication, it looks like you will be at your dealer with your car more than I will be at my dealer with mine.

carleton1 · June 2001

Not one Toyota has had problems...of the many owned by friends. Honda, Nissan, Mazda, etc. do NOT have the long term reliability of Toyota and in fact, have less long term reliability than most American brands.
The most unreliable American brands are those where there is Japanese content such as Chevy Chevette, Chevy Tracker, Ford Probe, etc. However, the Chevy Prizm (Toyota clone) is very reliable.
Daughter and son in law's 1984 Honda Accord has so many problems at 177,000 miles (and has engine AND transmission rebuilt/replaced) they cannot afford to fix it. Meanwhile, their 1978 Impala with 187,000 miles on original engine and transmission runs well...but needs to have grille, fender, lights, etc. fixed after he was in 2 wrecks with it. Japanese quality? Only Toyota.

tazereli · June 2001

people compare the reliability of a 17 year old car to todays cars. They are nt even in the same leaguw as the new models. Its kinda like comparing a high school baseball team to a major league team. MAnufacturing processes have improved greatly since the mid 80's as well as quailty issues. You just cant compare old cars to new. its a different car than mine and and much older to0 with diffenent parts and 1980's technology (carbs, etc)

majorthomecho · June 2001

A reliable car is a reliable car no matter when it was made.

carleton1 · June 2001

And the Impala is and has been MORE reliable than the Accord. Both were purchased used with over 100,000 miles on each so we do not know the history on either.
I have never owned a Toyota but all research indicates Toyota is THE most reliable brand. Not one unreliable Toyota in the numerous ones of all ages owned by friends. Can not say that about any other brand. I have had Chevrolet that had problems and Chevrolet that were almost perfect. All 5 Volkswagens we owned gave us problems. Our NEW Volvo was unreliable and expensive to maintain. A co-worker had same experience with a new, later model Volvo. So far, our 1999 Grand Caravan SE in 27 months is acting as if it were built by Toyota...completely reliable with zero problems.

carleton1 · June 2001

Toyota is THE only brand with zero problems. I agree that Toyota styling can sometimes be off the target. Toyota has no "duds" like other makers. Here are a few examples: Ford: Pinto, Roll-over-Explorers, 1996 Taurus, Edsel, etc. Mazda: undesireable Miller engine, underpowered MPV. Suzuki: Roll-over-Samaurai. GM: Corvair, Vega, Cimarron by Cadillac, Catera by Cadillac,etc. Honda: too unreliable and expensive to keep running.

jstandefer · June 2001

Since when did an "undesireable Miller engine" and "underpowered MPV" make an entire brand unreliable? If underpowered makes a car unreliable, then Toyota would certainly NOT be the most reliable brand. Can we say Tercel, older Corolla's, and the non-supercharged 4-cyl Previa minivan? What's so undesireable about the Miller-cycle engine? It's a V6 with a supercharger and delayed intake valve timing. It runs exactly the same way as any other 4-stroke piston internal combustion engine.

If I recall, Toyota's V6 had a really bad reputation a while back and even Consumer's Reports rated it as a bad buy. MSN's CarPoint rated the previous generation Camry with only 3 points of 5 possible. There were several engine problems that ended with "V6 only."

Toyota makes good vehicles and they probably have the highest reliability on the market, but they are certainly not perfect and the other manufacturers are not very far behind. Virtually every car sold today will run past the 200,000 mile mark.

As far as "duds"... Has anyone seen the crash-test ratings on the Toyota Previa? Notrotious at best. Just as bad, if not worse, than the Ford Aerostar. That's why the Sienna came around so quickly. The MR-Spyder is a nice vehicle, but someone forgot to design in everyday liveability (virtually no trunk space). And the Celica with it's VVTi-L engine is quick if you rev it past 6,000rpm. Where did the torque go? I like to drive hard, but revving well beyond 6,000rpm all of the time?

But I'll discuss it with everyone. I know about a dozen people that will never buy a Toyota again because of their bad experiences with them. I have never had a problem with any of the Ford's or Mazda's I have owned and I will continue to buy from them. Toyota? I'll consider them, but they're priced a bit high and they're just plain boring to drive (IMHO).

cjaccetta · June 2001

HI everyone, I've been lurking here for a while and I must admit that, at first, I thought this topic was kind of silly.

But then I realized that people here are just as passionate about their $12,000 cars as they are about their $72,000 cars. In that perspective, then, this discussion is pretty good after all. I don't agree with every poster here but a lot of you make good points and it's great to see such interest in the "bottom" of the price spectrum.

I just purchased my first brand-new car last week. My wife and I wanted a smaller car with four doors. We wanted to spend less than $20,000. I've never owned a small Toyota, Honda, Ford, Chevy, etc. My previous car was a Geo Metro. So I spent about eight months researching all the usual small cars. And after digesting all the information I gathered from just about every source I could think of, what did my wife and I do? We bought a Hyundai Elantra GT. And why? Because we liked it. That's all. Liked the way it drove, liked the room, liked the styling, liked the features and liked the price. All the 0-60 times and re-sale values went out the window.

We looked at Echo, Protege (great car, our second choice), Corolla (too small), Civic (dull), Focus, Sonata, Beetle (too small) and others. All fine cars in their own ways, but none was right for us. We certainly don't feel like we sacrificed anything with our choice.

Will our Korean car hold up over the next eight years? Who knows? It's my first one, but it has given me no reason to suspect it won't. To us, it was just as refined and appears as just well built as any other compact we looked at. Is our car the best? Probably not, but it's good enough for us.

I guess the point I'm trying to make (and, I suspect, other posters here are trying to make, too) is that we buy the cars we like, regardless of what we hear or read. And becuase we like them, we want others to like them, too. Sure, we can talk about them all we like, but at the end of the day if you didn't like Daewoos when the sun came up, odds are you ain't gonna like 'em when the sun sets, either.

So love your Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, Ford or Honda. Don't let anyone try to put doubt in your mind about your choice of vehicle. And respect the choices of others. After all, we buy what we like.

Happy Motoring!
CJA

pat · June 2001

Welcome to Town Hall, cjaccetta.

Have you also found our very active discussion on the Hyundai Elantra? If not, just click on that link to check it out. I'm sure you will find lots of interesting previous conversation there, and will be welcomed there as a new owner.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

bjfrank42 · June 2001

Wasn't insulting your car. I find is refreshing that a car company is trying make a car different looking than the rest. I have friends with Toyotas and Mazdas and they all take their cars in every 7500 miles for scheduled maintenance. Not all of these are cheap either. No doubt it is a good idea,. I've just never done it before. I will start now with my Sephia because the warranty requires it. I've had mine 9 months with no unscheduled maintenance. The clock is getting fixed during the 15000 mile checkup. I don't know whether to consider that unscheduled or not. I guess it's one of the 2.5 problems (J.D. Power) I should expect form this car. Maybe I've just been lucky with cars but I've always bought American before and only changed oil and air filters. My last 2 vehicles didn't get tune-ups until 90000 miles and they were still running good at the time. I never pay attention to reviews of cars. I test drive and buy what I like. I'm 6'3" so I am limited in cars that are comfortable. That's why I didn't get the Rio. Plus the Rio has very few options available. I'm sure Toyota probably makes the highest quality cars. I just didn't think the cost differential was worth it. Again only time will tell and even if I have to take my Sephia in twice a year for unexpected problems, I can live with that because of the warranty. 6 months from now I might be back here calling Kia the worst company in the world. Who knows. Then again it might be a great deal.

bjfrank42 · June 2001

I think you emphasized my point. I have 3 American cars ranging from 3 to 12 years old. They still get compliments and they run fine and I didn't have to take them to the dealer for scheduled maintenance to keep them that way. Guess they were just made right. By the way, Mazda is considered a mediocre car in Japan. I didn't know that until I read an article in Business Week. The Protege was my 2nd choice. Just wasn't worth 1500 dollars more. Also as for the looks. you cannot tell the difference between a Sephia and many of the Japanese cars just by looking at one driving down the road. I tested this theory with some friends of mine (some were Japanese car owners) and we couldn't tell the difference until we saw the logos on them. Try it sometime. It's an interesting test. I'm not trying to be critical of anybody's car. Everyone has their own tastes like cjaccetta said.

bjfrank42 · June 2001

If we want to have fun with numbers, since 2000, Toyota has had 12 recalls. Kia has had 2. None on the Sephia. NHTSA web site. But do I really think Kia is better than Toyota? No. Again it came down to money and comfort. The Toyota Corolla was made for small people. Sephia has more room. Not much more but enough.

iluvmysephia1 · June 2001

Not only do we need to make the choices that we feel comfortable with we need to filter out the hype that comes flipping our way from the "data collectors". If you come to this site often you'll soon see what I'm talking about. You'll see articles supporting the fact that Sephia is the worst in crash tests, worst in re-sale, etc. Not planning on running head on into a semi in my '99 Sephia tomorrow, but....(!). I'm also not planning on trading in and from what I read that's a good thing. I think you guys will like your Sephia a lot. I'm hooked on mine to the point of only really liking Kia's and Hyundai's now. They're the only cars I want to learn about or see on the road. Really. That's going bonkers over a silly car. Don't know if you'll go as mad as me with yours (or if your wife will)just keep it maintained. It'll need a new timing belt at 60,000 miles. Just got one of those 5,000 miles back. Nice wheel sets look great on these cars, too. I bought a Yokohama-Konig package deal in January and it makes the car look even better than it does off the lot. By the way, Protege's looks don't come close to Sephia's. Look at the beautiful line and curvework on Sephia. Seriously. Kia rules!!!

majorthomecho · June 2001

BJ, would you please ask your friends whose idea it was to have maintenance work done at 7500 miles? And what work they had done?

As I said, the maintenance guide does not list any maintenance at 7500 miles other than an oil change and rotating the tires if you are using the 7500 mile interval schedule.

I think that someone has pulled the wool over their eyes.

majorthomecho · June 2001

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