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majtecho, I suspected that but you never know. Now, fangio maybe I can believe (j/k).
:~)
majtecho I don't have a CR, what is actually represented by that fore-aft measurement?
Question: what large manufacturing company makes the industrial robots used by Mercedes-Benz to manufacture their automobiles (and undisputably high-quality automobiles at that)? Hint: the same robots are used to manufacture Hyundais.
BTW, the reason I asked about how EPA measures interior room was I wonder if they would include the back window shelf space. That would account for a few cubic feet in the Focus and Echo comparison, with the Focus' sloping rear. Now I am wondering what the EPA does with all those water-damaged test cars...
You bet -- that was exactly my point. The only reason it's considered "Japanese" is because they wre the first to adopt it and the only ones really committed to it.
protegextwo: Palm Springs is wonderful. My wide and I have a time share there, and we go as often as we can (it's only an hour and a half away from where we live). The temperature varied between 104 and 108 at midday, but since it's do dry, you never sweat -- you just feel like you're covered with a warm blanket. Nights are cool, and dry too -- you don't need air conditioning at all. And the sky is always bright blue, without a single cloud. Love it!!
Echo/Focus
------------------------------
39.9/39.3 Front Headroom
37.6/38.5 Rear Headroom
41.1/43.1 Front Legroom
35.2/37.6 Rear Legroom
51.9/53.7 Front Shoulder Room
50.7/53.7 Rear Shoulder Room
51.1/49.4 Front Hip Room
51.0/49.5 Rear Hip Room
------------------------------
358.5/364.8 Advantage: Focus
These numbers, as far as I can tell, are provided by the manufacturers. Overall, the Focus is a roomier vehicle. However, interior design and ergonomics play a huge role in how roomy the interior feels. My friend has a brand new Focus Wagon. I have a Mazda Protege. Even though the Focus, on paper, has more interior room, my Protege feels much larger inside. The Focus's door panels shove into your hip room and you can't buckle the front seat belts nor release the parking brake without lifting the center armrest. This alone makes the vehicle feel more cramped, since you have to move things to access other things.
My niece and her husband liked their Mazda MPV so much (old sytle SUV with real 4WD) they traded it off and now drive an Izuzu built Honda Passport.
As to this thread, maybe it should be that you need at least one EPA rating of 32 something or better to qualify. So much then for all of the gas VWs and most of the Proteges.
Now the Focus vs Protege, room was not an issue for me. The deciding factor for me was the IIHS offset crash tests, but then again safety was high on my evaluation list.
Can I still remain a member of this thread?
LOL.
On a more serious note, it looks like the Elantra got some pretty bad offset crash test scores from the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety (IIHS). It appears that the airbags deployed late, allowing the driver's head and neck to contact the steering wheel. Also, in one of the test, the driver's seat latch broke on one side. Here's the link:
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0103.htm
The first part of your statement is true and well-documented; Deming first lectured Japanese manufacturing leaders in 1950. Note, however, that it took a couple of decades for Japan to begin to overcome its reputation for shoddy quality products. To compare, Hyundai has been selling cars in the U.S. for 15 years, Kia and Daewoo for less time. It will be interesting to see what strides Hyundai and the others can make in the next five years or so.
The second part of your statement is inaccurate. For example, Deming's principles have been in use at Lockheed since 1974--for 27 years. I'd say that's a commitment. According to The Washington Post, 12/21/93 (Deming's obituary), by 1984 Deming's quality principles such as quality circles were being followed by 90 percent of the Fortune 500, including Ford and GM (maybe they weren't paying attention at all his lectures, but that's another story). By '84, over 3,000 quality circles were in place at U.S. companies. That shows a widespread commitment to Deming's quality principles outside of Japan. But Japan does have the most experience at it.
Major Thom: if you would feel better contributing to the Cardboard thread, I say go ahead. It's a free country. Maybe your next car will have cardboard. (Tip: check out the inside of the glovebox, in some cars it is lined with felt-covered cardboard.)
And yes, the American industry has shrunk the gap between itself and the Japanese, but the Japanese have not been standing still. They have been improving too.
It is just that the Americans had more improving to do.
Since you have the mag, would you mind verifying that Japan's bar has flattened out in recent years, while the European and American bars are getting closer to it? One would expect this behavior, as it gets harder and harder to make incremental improvements in quality as you get closer to perfection, but I don't want to rely on memory again. Also, is there a bar on the chart for the Korean automakers?
If you have any more questions, just ask. If there is a auto resource out there, I probably have it. ; )
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
LOL.
I was thinking of Kias of more recent vintage like the 2001 Kia Sephia which had an average of 250 problems per 100 vehicles or the 2001 Kia Rio which had an average of 255 problems per 100 vehicles or the Kia Spectra which had an average of 295 problems per 100 vehicles or the Kia Sportage which had an average of 300 problems per 100 vehicles.
"Well made car from Kia,"
Yeah, right!
But, you are right. The Japanese should follow the Koreans. First, you design the body so that it looks "nice." Then, you design the interior so that it is roomy and functional. Once you are all done, then you try to squeeze in some safety. I know, the Japanese have it all backwards. First, they design safety, then the interior, then the body...
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) Ratings:
Small Japanese Cars:
Good: Honda Civic
Acceptable: Mazda Protege
Acceptable: Nissan Sentra
Acceptable: Toyota Corolla
Poor: Mitsubishi Mirage
Small Korean Cars:
Poor: Hyundai Elantra
Poor: Kia Sephia
Small American Cars:
Good: Ford Focus
Acceptable: Ford Escort
Acceptable: Saturn SL
Marginal: Dodge Neon
IIHS Ratings:
Good
Acceptable
Marginal
Poor
BTW, Mazda is one of the only manufacturers that still do full-size clay mock-ups of their designs. Extreme attention is paid to the design, not only for aesthetics but also for aerodynamics. The Millenia, for example, has a coefficient of drag of 0.29. That is absolutely outstanding, especially considering that it achieved that 6 years ago.
Does anyone know if those IIHS offset crash test results are to be interpreted as though the tested vehicle were involved in a head-on collision with the same size/weight vehicle?
PS - Didn't Subaru hit the sub-0.30 coefficient of drag with the first batch of XT coupes in 1987?
1) With Mazda's extreme attention to design, why can't they come up with a bumper design that protects the car from major damage in a 5 mph impact? According to IIHS' tests, the Protege is more than twice as bad as the lowly Elantra on this score ($521 average damage per test vs. $213). The Protege is also ranked below the Neon, Civic, Saturn, Sentra, Corolla, and Prizm on this test (of cars in our forum's scope). Of these, the Saturn ranks best (nice engineering on the space-cage perhaps), followed by Elantra. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to design a decent bumper.
2) Why can't Mazda design a body structure for the Protege that rates better than "average" in the IIHS crash tests? Now this one does take some engineering prowess. Perhaps the clay models don't help here--computer modeling may be more useful.
I'd love to go on here and ask other questions about Mazda's attention to design, e.g. how they can design a minivan that can't zoom-zoom out of its own way, or a sports car that can't deliver its advertised horsepower, or a compact sedan (626) that is a lesser vehicle than its previous generation, but that's outside the scope of this forum.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Remember -- mass and interia aren't the whole story. Structure plays a huge role as well.
Yeah, that's why Ford got rid of Kia and kept Mazda. Mazda's financial loss this year was from a one-time corporate restructuring (early-retirement payoffs) that completes Ford's restructuring plan at Mazda. Look for a total revamp of the Mazda line-up in the next three years with the return of the venerable rotary engine.
"extreme attention to design"
I was referring to exterior design. However, the 5mph damage tests conducted by the IIHS is hard to read. The repair costs (unless $0) only shows how much it costs to repair the car. Mazda parts are traditionally higher in cost. Another thing is that for some strange reason, Mazda uses a slight textured pattern on their bumper covers. You can't just repaint the damaged section; the whole bumper cover must be replaced to look new. Why do they do that? I don't know. However, I've been rear-ended twice in my '99 Protege at speeds between 10-15mph. Damage? Some paint chips...
Only two small sedans get "Good" body structure ratings on the IIHS offset frontal crash test. Those are the 2001 Honda Civic and 2001 Hyundai Elantra. Both of those vehicles are brand new designs, as where the Protege is going on it's third year. When the Protege is redesigned for the 2004 model year, it will get significant structural reinforcements. What I find interesting, is that the IIHS grouped the 2001 Protege with the 1999 and 2000. For 2001, Mazda made structural reinforcements to the engine pan, suspensions mounts, and safety cage. Why didn't the IIHS retest the Protege? Another question... why can't Hyundai use airbags that work?
The 2.5L Duratec used in the MPV is a parent company decision... with the Contour going out of production, Ford had to stick that engine in something. However, the 2002 MPV will get the much more powerful 3.0L Duratec. Have you driven the current MPV? I have always found it to be quite adequate if you let it rev up. It is certainly better than the 4-cyl DaimlerChrysler vans, or the anemic Quest and Villager.
The Miata? I can't explain that one. However, I'm sure Mazda will rectify the situation this coming model year. At least they came out and stated their error. Ford didn't do that when the same thing happened to the Mustang Cobra.
How is the 626 lesser than the previous generation? The new 626 is roomier, quieter, more powerful, and smoother than the previous generation. It doesn't really matter though, since the new generation is just around the corner and will be powered by a 3.0L DOHC V6 with S-VT and variable intake control.
Now, the results of the side impact crash test done by NHTSA for any car can be compared to ANY other car.
Strange to say this, but the Echo scores as well in that test as the Buick LeSabre although the LeSabre weighs 1,600 pounds more.
And sorry, I cannot be Frank. I am Steve. ; )
If this is true it's off of my future consideration list. Too Corolla-typical for me.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As I have said before, it has the tall greenhouse, sloping hood, and back end is higher than the front end look of the Echo.
The next Camry will be sportier and edgier.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/popmech/auto3/0006AUNCBM.html
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Most modern designs use the wedge shape, meaning that the front end of the car is lower and overall profile escalates from front to rear. This is done for three reasons: profile gives the vehicle a sense of forward motion; profile is more aerodynamic; increased trunk volume.
The Sephia's profile has a sloping hood and sloping trunk. This design was used unsuccesfully on the Contour/Mystique and 96-00 Taurus/Sable. As a result, the Sephia has only 10.4 cubic feet of trunk space. That is small considering that most of its competitors have right around 13 cubic feet of trunk space.
The Sephia uses a straight character line which appears from the fenders to the rear quarter panels. However, the Sephia's hood and trunk profile are rounded, contradicting the character line and giving vehicle a bulbous appearance.
The window frames are painted body color. Traditionally, this is a trait of a base model vehicle, with the upper models having black window frames. Black window frames give the vehicle's greenhouse a more integrated look. The Sephia's monochrome treatment of the window frames lend to a choppy look. However, monochrome window frames can be done successfully if the monochrome treatment is carried throughout the design. However, the Sephia's black plastic sail panels on the rear windows and black plastic mirror-base treatment add to the awkward look.
The interior is just plain outdated. Those door panels? Exact replicas of the 1995 Protege. The switchgear? Exact replicas of the 1995 Protege. The steering wheel? Exact replica of the 1995 Protege. Or are they? I wouldn't be surprised if they are Mazda parts, just like the engine and platform. Everything's based on a design Mazda got rid of years ago.
Here's a 2001 Sephia and the same car with the character line removed, trunk redesigned to achieve the wedge shape (and two more cubic feet of trunk space), and window frames blackened:
Original
Modified
I prefer the modified version. What do you guys and gals think?
http://photos.yahoo.com/jstand6
Then click on the Vehicles album and then click on the thumbnails to enlarge.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick