Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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That's also a problem for those of us who would like a black or red car, but can't stand tan/brown interiors. As it is, the only colors I can consider in an Accord are Silver (black interior) or Graphite and Eternal Blue (Gray int.).
And it seems like everyone else is imitating Honda with the "one color per exterior" system of interior decor. Sigh. A minor point, perhaps, but it would sometimes be nice to have a little more choice.
:-)
It isn't like he is getting screwed. Most people don't even get invoice price. Especially with no negotiating.
Sales people are not all jerks. As a matter of fact every salesperson I have had or spoken with has been very nice and not played any games, and I have paid invoice or close to invoice on every car purchase I have made. It seems that if you treat them with respect, most of the time they will do the same back (not always). What a shocking concept.
If you do decide to lowball them, please let us know how they respond.
I used the Edmunds system to get quotes from a bunch of dealers and ended up buying from the dealer that gave me the lowest no-nonsense quote. I didn't shop the quote around by internet because I didn't want to get low-balled and run around town chasing after non-existent deals. My instinct and experience says that if a dealer starts off on an honest note (yours maybe?)this is someone you can do business with.
Bottom line--invoice for an Accord gets you a great car at a great price.
Barry S.
kendrid...we don't get insulted but sometimes we get embarassed for the customer.
Anybody paying premium for a certain colors?
Also it doesn't seem like there are too many used 2003's in the market. Any comments?
I remember when Honda Accords became popular during the gas crises of 1979-80. It was a seller's market then and the Honda dealers took full advantage and charged thousands over MSRP. I have bought 3 Honda accords so I am a fan of this automoble. Payback is sweet.
I got my EX-V6 for $744 below invoice about four weeks ago (I'll happily fax a copy of the invoice to any doubters). The internet sales guy offered that price without me asking. I never would have offered that low of a price, but it just illustrates that it is possible for invoice price to be negotiable.
The price you pay depends on a lot of factors, so you can't expect to replicate anyone's deal and I'll admit that mine was damn lucky. In your part of the country, $500 over invoice may be a great deal. Prices can fluctuate daily and vary quite a bit between dealerships. I encourage any shoppers to read the last 6 months of posts on this forum. It will give you a good idea of the range of prices folks are paying for Accords.
Car pricing reminds me a lot of airline ticket pricing--no two people on the plane pay the same ticket price. However, I recommend that you be the person that pays $299 for your seat, not the one that pays $600.
The dealership has to clear an overall profit on all vehicles sold. Since the purchase price is not fixed, the amount of profit varies per vehicle. As they say, there are skinny deals and fat ones--educate yourself and get one of the skinny ones.
Barry S.
by bburton3 Dec 22, 2003 (6:19 pm) :
"Get the best deal you can-if you can get the 3% hold back-goforit. Insulting a car sales person-gimme a break. "
These aren't distressed merchandise.
That must be one depressed tough market!
I'm not looking for specific's on salesmen, but just the dealerships in general.
Thanks
Well, in the alternative: A customer naively agrees to pay near MSRP for an Accord. The dealer still tries to sell useless rustproofing and window etching. Amazing.
Hey, I got nothing against car salesmen. They are just doing their job, like everyone else.
If the dealer doesn't want to sell for less than invoice, the dealer can just say no. There's nothing wrong with the customer asking for less than invoice.
I just find it amazing to the extent some people will go just out of fear they will pay "too much" whatever that is.
And, it's not the dollars. In most cases it's the fear that maybe, just maybe someone else may have paid less.
To me, that's a miserable way to live but we are all different and that's what keeps the world interesting.
Kyle-We bought it from Apple Valley Honda in Wenatchee, but they got it from Hinshaw's Honda just like yours. I don't know how all that works, but i am very happy with my purchase.
We still haven't decided whether or not to but the extended warranty---& the mirad of selections...ideas?
We did take advantage of the 1.9 financing for 3 years, couldn't pass that one up.
Why was my price so far below invoice? Good question. I didn't have a trade-in and the deal wasn't linked to any F&I stuff. The area I live in (DC Metro) is not economically depressed--real estate here is insane. However, I think they built a few too many Honda dealerships--there's at least six within a 40 minute drive of where I live.
I agree the Accord is certainly not distressed merchandise--I have to say it's an amazing car and undervalued. Sadly, I think it all comes down to the car's rear-end and tail lights. Honda botched the car's exterior design by being too conservative. A sexier design would have stimulated a more interest and people would be paying a premium. Not to say that Honda isn't selling a lot of Accords, but here in the land of expensive imports the Accord isn't a big status symbol.
For the life of me I can't figure out why my dealer had so many Accords on the lot--there was a sea of them. Why would a slow dealership floor so many cars?
Isell--you mention customer fear of someone else getting a better price. I think it's more a fear of being taken advantage of. So if anyone's making your life harder by turning customers skittish and unreasonable--it's other salespeople. If you've had a bad experience in the past, you tend to put your guard up.
Also, as Americans, we're not used to haggling and negotiating prices. Take the stress of a big puchase and add the anxiety of unfamiliar negotiation tactics--hence some edgy customers. With all the confusion, just as some customers won't be able to recognize a bad price, some won't be able to recognize a good price. So what might seem reasonable to you--knowing the economics of the dealership, is not so clear to the customer.
Happy holidays to everyone on the forum. May the New Year find all of you healthy, wealthy and a little bit wiser.
Barry S.
The best deals have always been on non-navi cars. Now that supply is more in balance with demand and it is winter (a slow selling season in the colder climes at least)near invoice prices should be much easier to find, especially on the 4 bangers and non-navi models. Sweeter deals are probably available on the navi models now that supplies are up but demand is down.
Finally, its a lot harder to drive an accord off the lot at invoice if you allow the dealer to upsell you on the spoilers, fogs, day/night mirror, mp3 player, fake wood trim, fabric, rust and wax protection paks, muds, trunk mats and extended warranties. Dipping into the above honey pot can easily addd $500 - $3,000 to the "near invoice" price. Cheaper items that only cost $25-$50 like wheel locks and cargo nets are often thrown in for "free".
I've been in retail and retail management my entire working career. Division Manager for the largest Sears store in CA at age 23 etc...I thought I had seen it all but NOTHING could have prepared me for the car business.
I deal with wonderful customers and a few I hope I never see again....not many of these.
I watch otherwise friendly people turn ugly and cheap beyond belief when it comes to working out pricing on cars. I don't know if it's the fear of being taken advantage of...I'm sure it is many times, or what I mentioned before, the fear that someone else may have paid a bit less.
At this point, most of my customers are repeat and referral customers. I try to treat them like family, the way I would like to be treated myself.
In any event...I hope all of you have a safe and happy holiday season!
Craig
Isell says 'I just find it amazing to the extent some people will go just out of fear they will pay "too much" whatever that is.'
My question is - if it's so, why won't the dealer let it go? Why is the buyer supposed to accept a price that is more than his/her definition of "fair", whatever that definition is? Sounds to me like the logic is "I, the dealer, will try to make as much money as I can with this car sale. On the other hand, you, the buyer, should not try to negotiate the lowest possible price, beacuse then you are cheap and ugly". What gives? Most dealers don't have any, um, "issue" asking thousands over MSRP when a new, hot model comes out.
I am waiting for the day when a car dealer will say to me: "this is the invoice price. This is the holdback. Right now we also have a $750 manufacturer incentive, paid to us. So our true invoice price is x dollars. I am adding 3% fair profit (or whatever is "fair"), so your price is 1.03*x". When that day comes, I will take that price. Until then, I assume that a dealer is trying to take advantage of me, and I'll try to get the lowest price.
Sometimes folks miss the fact that you can always delete your own messages (as long as you are logged in), so getting rid of an accidental re-post is easy.
(I removed one - that's what got me started on this. ;-))
I was talking about the small percentage of shoppers who abandon all sense of courtesy when they step over the line and simply go too far.
bd21, and when we do "lay the deal out on the table" and agree to settle for a *fair* profit of (gasp)a whopping 3%, the customers I am referring to will take that number and shop it.
I've literally had customers drive fifty miles to "save" fifty dollars.
Of course, nobody here would do that...right?
Anyway...Peace on Earth and Happy Holidays to all of you.
thanks
I'm looking to buy one very soon provided I get a good deal. I have VPP membership for Nissan but think all their 04' cars are ugly. I will buy an Accord if I can get 4% below invoice. That is excluding delivery,ad charges. 4% below invoice is better then asking for 5% after dealer cost. Formula: (dealer cost)-(incin&rebate)-(holdback).
Sorry for those chumps who feel sorry for the saleperson. They are con artist and that is why they are in the sales business period. I'm selling a bridge are you interested?
If anyone has an accurate invoice price, and any info on holdback please let me know! I'm about to pay $30 for the info, but will not get the info until a week later.
Before I went to buy it, I went to www.consumerreports.org
That site for $10 gave me the dealer invoice price, and the dealer holdback, which is money paid back to the dealer from Honda after they make the sale. Two dealers had the color and style I was looking for. One wouldn't go below invoice. The other did. I was upfront and told them the numbers that I had received from consumerreports.org, and just politely asked them how much they wanted for the car. As much as I don't trust car dealers (does anyone?) we can still be civil. As an aside, I also test drove the Acura TL, which I didn't think was worth the extra money, but the salesman told me that these days (I'm in Boston), the TL is so popular that its unlikely to sell for much less than MSRP.
As for extended warranties, I don't buy them. Think about it: If the parts under warranty broke on each car, Honda would lose lots of money. So odds are that you won't need it. So I'm just hedging my bets that my car is in the majority that won't need to be fixed.
Well, I feel sorry for *your* salesperson. Being educated about the car buying process is really helpful, but storming into your dealer with an attitude and a sense of entitlement isn't going to help you much.
Why do you think you're entitled to all of a dealer's holdback? The holdback is money paid by the manufacturer to support financing and maintenance for the first 90 days a vehicle is on the lot--a legitimate business expense. The dealer can decide to dip into the holdback depending on a number of factors, but you shouldn't assume it's all going into your pocket. Let's say a vehicle has been on the lot for 60 days--the dealer has already spent 2/3 of the holdback for that vehicle.
Since you have no way of knowing how long a car has been on the lot, or more importantly, the average length of time cars are staying on the lot--you have no basis for demanding 100% of the holdback.
Try to negotiate the best price you can, but how about some respect and understanding that the dealer is entitled to support the business and make a profit.
Happy Holidays,
Barry S.
I was aiming high and definetly would settle for less holdback, just as dealers aim for MSRP and settle for less.
We are talking about Honda Accords here. The latest Honda Accords does not sit on the lot for long, otherwise they would not be selling like hot cakes. If the buyer doesn't get the holdback then the dealer is getting twice the holdback. Once from the manufacturer, and once from the buyer.
There we go again, another person feeling sorry for a *New* *Honda* sales person. Remember this car sells itself?
K
Considering the dealer pays the manufacturer invoice for the car - then the manufacturer rebates it back to the dealer - maybe you can explain how the dealer is getting it twice -
Why do you think they call it "HOLDBACK" maybe because the manufacturer "HOLDS BACK" part of the money paid by the dealer.
Honda holdback is 3% of base MSRP (excluding destination) not 3% of invoice.
thanks for clearing this up and providing all the info. My apologies for being wrong about the hold back. The dealer making away with double the holdback would be if I had not not taken the hold back into account when I offer the dealer 5% over the actual dealer's cost. Even then it wouldn't be double the hold back.
Correctly understanding pricing, incentives, and dealer support has nothing to do with feeling sorry for anyone. I consistently recommend negotiating the best deal you can--but if you misunderstand the process it's going to hurt you. I also feel like everyone (including salespeople) deserve my full respect unless they give me a reason to think otherwise.
As for the car selling itself--there is a *lot* of competition in the mid-size sedan class. Accord sales are slow in my area--SUV's and lux sedans are the hot sellers. In any case I'll be interested in hearing your tactics and how good a deal you end up getting.
Barry S.
People with your attitude are not worth the trouble.
Isell, you gave an example of somebody driving 50 miles to save 50 bucks. Well, I would not do it, but somebody making $8/hr. might. Let's not forget that people who make $500/hr. DON'T buy Hondas.
For a lot of people, a car is only transportation and not a status symbol.
In the seventies... wasn't sure exactly when, that's why I said "relatively recent". But if the purpose of the holdback is to pay for "storage and maintenance until the car is sold", should I assume those expenses did not exist BEFORE 1970s?
Bottom line: lay everything on the table, if you, car dealers, want to be trusted. Happy Holidays.
Daniel
Would you ask the guy at Starbucks what it really cost them for that double vanilla latte?
Holdback was put in place to *help* pay for some of the flooring and advertising costs.
If someone wants to bring up holdback than the costs of overhead should be put on the table too.
And, Happy Holidays to you as well!
Daniel
If all dealers had always treated customers fairly, this discussion wouldn't be happening.
Isell, you may be a decent guy and work for a honest dealership, but we've all heard too many stories or tell the stories ourselves.