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Comments
car-buying experience.
And I think your plan to buy your next car for cash and pay MSRP makes perfect sense if you want your next car purchase to be enjoyable and hassle-free.
Some unfortunate people do not find car-buying to be fun. That's too bad. More people would enjoy car-buying if they did what you plan to do and simply offered to pay MSRP plus any additional fees the dealer chooses to add on.
It is just a bad deal, but it is a contract.
You can try to get some publicity out of it with the local media, but as far as getting out of it - I think she is out of luck. Next time she needs to take someone (like you) with her to the dealership along with a calculator and work through all the number before signing anything.
Bad deals get made all the time in car dealerships, that is how they make money - some deals more than others. I guess it is only crooked "if they get caught" and she failed to catch them. I don't like it, but that is pretty much how some elements of the cart buying world work
Dennis
With the up to $750 in incentives available to dealers this month your target should have been $21,300 or so.
In fact, if you go to carsdirect.com right now and use an Atlanta ZIP code the car comes up with a no-haggle price of $21,317 .
You have to know your dealer incentives along with invoice price when you shop, otherwise you will do what you just did - leave about $750 on the table!!!
Dennis
I was also been by one sales person that their commission is based on what the selling price ABOVE invoice is. I find it hard o believe that if a car sells below invoice that they don't get a commission.
Perhaps an trade insider can chime in?
I want to name this particular dealership to warn people, but I suspect that's premature. My sister negotiated a pretty good base price for the car, but then it all went to pot with the finance manager and his numbers game. In researching this dealership after the fact, this is very common practice for them, and they've been called on it before by a local news channel and the state's consumer affairs office. I realize profit is king, but how does a shady place like this stay in business?
http://www.edmunds.com/incentives/step1.jsp
In the case of the factory to dealer Honda Accord incentives, the incentives for last month and this month are NOT listed. The April incentive was $0-600 and varied with how well each dealer dealer met or exceeded their "quota" or sales goal. It was published a few places on auto news sites. The current dealer money is (I think) $200-750 and is also based on quota. This was mentioned by car_man over in the lease forum, but I never did go look to see if it was published in any auto news anywhere else. It must be the right number, since the high volume, low price dealers I talked with last month are even cheaper this month. Too late for me, since I leased my wife a new Accord last month
My salesman said he only made $100 on the deal with us. We got the car for invoice - $600 - hold back (3% of MSRP) + dealer doc fee + $200 or so profit. We could have saved the $200 but we would have faced a 6 hour or 8 hour round trip drive to get the care elsewhere. The dealer doc fee was fairly high, but I compared prices from all the dealers that included the car, destination, and any dealer or doc fees. And the place I got the car from was bottom line reasonable compared to having to go out of town for the car. The bonus of a coupon book (cheap oil changes, etc) from the local dealer evened that price out as well. We will slowly save back the extra we paid by going through the cheap oil change or service coupons in the book on her Accord and my S2000.
Dennis
Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also by made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading
But unless she has something in writing from them or took a tape recording into the finance office (which might violate federal and state laws on her part) she has no way of proving anything.
What she has is a contract agreeing to but the car for $xx,xxx and some options for $y,yyy and agreeing to a finance rate of z.zz% with payments of $www per month. As long as the dealer follows through on their end of that deal, then they are "safe".
I don't know how these folks sleep at night either - nor how they stay in business, but I think they do both. Maybe folks don't pay attention to consumer complaints? Don't check with the state's attorney or BBS before deciding which dealer to use? Maybe they think they are smart enough to not get fooled?
A local dealer here had at one time a BBB employee "dedicated" to their complaints - they had that many, I was told. I have heard bad tales about them for a long time, yet they still run large ads on the paper and ads on the local media. And I know someone who got "trapped" in one of their deals, even though they should have known better. They were able to make it better than the initial rip, but were unable to un-wind the deal. They are smart folks, so I could not understand how they could get hoodwinked by this dealer - but they were.
Folks seem to forget that they can hop in their old car and drive away. Go some place else and trade or just keep what they have. They seem intent on making this deal right now - even if it takes hours of their time and even if they do not get the best deal.
Dennis
Secondly,
Assuming the invoice price is 24,673 and holdback of $820, and dealer incentive of $750 (high-volume) their net cost should be about $23,100. What would be a good opening offer?
Is 23,500 too low of an offer?, or should I start lower?
One dealer has offered me 9500 on my 2002 Explorer XLT, the other offered 12,5-13K. Big difference! The dealer with the 9500 offer threw a price of 25K on the car. I very nicely walked out. (The EXP has 74K miles-)
My sister told her boyfriend's mom about what happened, and the woman actually said, "Well, what are you going to do? In the grand scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal. Don't get upset over it." And that's the attitude that allows people to be taken advantage of.
I dont think this place is "shady" at all they made a deal and your sister agreed. We all live an learn and I hope this is a valuable lesson for you and your sister.
I'm always amazed by people who defend shady corporations and what amounts to legal fraud. This place has had NUMEROUS complaints against them, to the point even a local news channel thought they could get some ratings out of confronting them over it.
LX 4C Manual was 17300 btw
LX 4C Manual was 17300 btw
Price included destination charges. All they added was sales tax, plates, registration
costs. No strange dealer fees or transportation costs. Another local dealer
turned my down so I guess those were decent prices. Bernardi Honda
in Framingham MA was the dealer I bought it from. They had lots in stock.
The EX does not sound right, the EX invoice w/MT - incentive - holdback = $19,063. I don't see how they made any money on the deal.
Did you have a trade in? If so, that must be where they made their money.
Dennis
It seems like you got an excellent deal. Edmunds list the invoice price of the EX 4cyl manual as $19,980 (before destination charges) or $20,495 including destination. If we take out the 3% holdback ($680) and max. $750 Honda incentive to dealer I get a $19,065 true dealer cost (this includes destination). It seems like you were able to get your car for slightly less than their "true cost".
Did this transaction include a trade-in? Congrats again.
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BTW I live in California.
However, since we've now veered away from conversation specific to the Honda Accord, I'm going to ask that we take this story over to our Smart Shopper board. There are a number of topics there that are perfect for this line of conversation.
Let's reserve this topic for members to share their pricing info specifically related to the Accord.
kirstie_h
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
similar deals on the
Altima (16,900 2.5S Manual 4C) like LX
Altima (18,450 2.5S Manual 4C with convenience pkg) like EX
Camery(16000)
Mazda6(15000).
Maybe manuals are hard to move, but they stocked alot, in all colors. For honda the
automatic is an option. The manual has alot more pep too.
My impression is that they sell cars the way Gillette sells razors. The money is in
the service.
Where are you located?
(Details of the deal are on the Odyssey board.)
What is the difference in a MSRP of 27,215 and 27,365 on the Accord EX-L 3.0's. Mid-year price increase or is there a difference in the cars?
Secondly,
Assuming the invoice price is 24,673 and holdback of $820, and dealer incentive of $750 (high-volume) their net cost should be about $23,100. What would be a good opening offer?
Is 23,500 too low of an offer?, or should I start lower?
One dealer has offered me 9500 on my 2002 Explorer XLT(74K), the other offered 12,5-13K. Big difference! The dealer with the 9500 offer threw a price of 25K on the car. I very nicely walked out. They called with a second offer of 10,100 for the trade and 24,500 on the car. Still rediculous. Looking back, I should have started negotiating the price of the car first, but I was concerned that the Explorer would be a major issue with it's miles. I read an earlier post that someone faxed offers to the dealers, would that be a good route for me to try? I have 3 large cities I can work with since I travel for work anyways. My thought is to fax an offer/request listing my trade and new Accord offer. NADA trade-in is 13,700. Is this a good start: $23,500 less 13,500 for the trade? Carsdirect is not in my area (or state) and they have a target price of 23,673.
Everyone seems to be very helpful on this forum, and I would appreciate your thoughts!
bmw31
My only guess is a mid-year price increase.. Maybe check the build date on the lower priced units... Checking KBB, I can't find any models with an MSRP of $27,215.
regards,
kyfdx
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I live in the bay area and am shopping around for an accord EX V-6 with Nav. I got a quote from carsdirect for $25,270 - do you think that the fremont dealer that you got your coupe from could do better? Which dealership in Fremont was it?
Thanks!
Danniboi
There might be a more significant change in the style of the '06 than there has been since the 2003 introduction year for the current Accord--no major change, but enough to matter to some people who don't care for the Accord's rear end design. See link below:
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=347007
After the '06s appear, leftover '05s should sell for about $1,500 or more below the newly introduced Accords, so your current price should be reduced by close to $1,000 less than you'd expect to pay at the start of a new model year.
The bottom line here is that if you'd expect to pay, say, $300 over invoice for a new 2006 Accord only 4 months from now, you shouldn't pay much more than $1,000 UNDER invoice for a 2005 model........Richard
While the 2.9% expired April 2, thus far I got 4.74% and 4.90% myself.
-A
Check out AutoWest Honda Fremont. They have a website and will give you a quick quote, lower than carsdirect. The price includes destination but not tax, license, documentation and calif tire fees.
Louise
I called AAA and they said license fees are 1.5% of the purchase price. This is a fee charged by the state of California. Documentation is up to the dealer and some won't charge any fee while others charge $200 or more. I've only seen one tire fee and it was $7.50. Get it all in writing before you make any agreement!
Louise
does that $750 high-volume dealer incentive apply only to a V6 EX Accord or across the Honda line? Also where did you find this number? I am looking to either buy a V6 EX Accord, 4 cylinder EX-L Accord, or even a Pilot EX (might lease). I am also looking at pre-owned Pilots as well, when I finally narrow my choices, I will post what I will offer, but I am I thinking true dealer cost + 5% for new, in the Indy area both Pilots and Accords are going for invoice on carsdirect. This invoice price for the Pilot is actually lower than many 2003 and 2004 Pilots, so I need to get a feel for how low dealers and private owners will go to move these used vehicles.
So I need to figure true dealer costs for the EX-L 4 cylinder Accord and Pilot EX.
Thanks!
I bought it on Apr 09 2005 . The price included destination charge. The dealer is Anderson Honda in Palo Alto, San Jose.
Yes, Honda had a price increase in Feb of this year. Any car they got before the increase is $100 (DX or LX) to $200 or so higher. Nothing different with the cars, but picking the "old stock" means you can save a little bit more - since the dealer cost and MSRP changed the same amount with the price increase.
A trade in really complicates the deal, as you have found out. Folks will post really cheap prices here, then we find out they got ripped on the trade. In my state, you don't pay sales tax on the trade in value. So while you can get more selling your car yourself, having an extra 7% tax "discount" on the trade keeps most folks trading in. If you have a CarMax nearby see what they will buy your truck for. If they give you a fair price, then it might be worth it (even if your state also saves tax on trades) to sell it to them (or to a private party) then just deal on the new car.
The motto on trades is always is "wholesale to wholesale, retail to retail" - if you want to buy the new car for invoice - hold back - incentive + a little profit for the dealer then you are going to have to accept below "book value" for your trade in. If you had a very desirable, easy to sell trade in (like a low mile Odyssey) then they might be willing to work a deal for your trade. In your case, a high mile American SUV is not something they want on their lot or can likely sell. So they will get rid of it at auction (low price) or pawn it off on a small used car lot (also low price).
Your $23,500 price sounds find to offer a high volume, low price dealer. But I am thinking you need to get rid of the SUV to get something at this price. Be sure to ask for prices that include the car, destination, and any dealer or doc fees. The latter can vary from $0 to several hundred and can make a good deal turn into a bad one quick.
Dennis
Sure, new models come out each fall and gee they change them around some (sometimes a lot) and you can usually get a better deal on a left over if you wait until then.
Honda had $600 dealer money on Accords for March and upped it to $750 for April. They have < 1% lease money for March and continued it for April. They had 2.9% 60 month financing but dropped it for April. So someone financing for 60 would have been better off to pull the trigger in March than to wait.
So no one knows for sure what is coming and what prices will be like in the future. All we can do is try to help folks that are in the car market NOW with getting a good deal. Since we know there are dealers around that will deal down into the hold back that should be what everyone sets as a goal - now or when the 06 cars come out. VSC (or DSC or whatever) is about the only thing missing from the Accord for 05 - the Pilot and CR-V have it, the Accord does not. I would ASSUME that is something that should and will be added in the future. But for folks needing a new car now, September is a long time to wait to see if it is added this year or not. Most folks have a trade in, and they too will be de-valued if they wait until another model year is out.
Dennis
The Pilot is a nice truck, and Honda has some attractive lease deals on it right now - but the EPA sticker coupled with the over $2 a gallon gas price should be enough to make you drop it from your list. "Who knows" how high gas will go before this current high price run ends? If you are considering the Accord VS the Pilot, then you must not NEED AWD and 3rd row seating - if not then you can get an Accord NOW for a lot less money and the LX lease money factor is sweet too (< 1%).
My wife would have enjoyed the Pilot as well, but after looking at it and test driving the EPA "Sticker shock" was just too much to seriously consider. The Accord I4 is cheap to operate, very cheap to insure, and gets better EPA CITY mileage than the Pilot does on the HIGHWAY.
Dennis
$617.25 (3% of base MSRP $20,575 holdback)
+ $750 April incentive
- $300.
------------
$1067.25 profit
That's everything OTD except tax and license fee.
The dealership is only an hour or so away ....should I take that or keep shopping?
I don't like in SoCal, but I just got an EX-V6 two weeks ago for $23,685 w/out Destination. I used the lowest invoice I could find online and took it to the dealer (Intellichoice) which had a base invoice of 24,028 with Destination. MY car also had a dealer installed options package of $399 (mud flaps, wheel locks, trunk tray). The MSRP of my car was $27854. I refused to pay for the options package because I didn't ask for it ( I actually told them they could take it out!) so i never paid for it. I do think I could have gone maybe $200 lower, but that's it. I also had a trade in but I neglected to mention it until AFTER we settled on a price for the honda. Then we argued over that. I got quotes from two local ford dealers and carmax plus printed out the KBB price and another Webstie I found. I ended up settling for $50 less than I wanted for my old car. Ideally I wanted to sell it outright, but having a trade-in lowered the taxable price anyway.
If I were you I'd get some internet prices. That is one thing I did not do that I would do if I had to do this all over. I have heard you can get rock bottom prices that way, plus it is in writing. But don't let them bs you into giving them a credit card # to "hold the car". I had two dealerships that I called for prices who wanted that. I told them they were nuts.
Just remember the more work you do in advance and take into the dealership with you, the easier it is to get the price and the car you want.
Good Luck
I started with $23,500 and they came back with their lowest being $25K. I laughed because I had an invoice price print off for $24,028 in my hand. Then they wrote out what their holdback was, and profit and stated they were willing to negotiate on a "fair" profit amount. I said $23,500 which I was quoted at another dealer. They told me that was impossible. To make a long story short we settled on 23,685 w/o destination. I had some $399 options package on their but I never paid for it-.
DO NOT MENTION YOUR TRADE UNTIL AFTER YOU SETTLE ON A PRICE FOR THE HONDA. They qualify you for the car and a price for a car if you mention that trade-in up front. Buying a new car and having a a trade-in are two SEPARATE deals. They asked me at least 20 times abou a trade in. I blew them off and even told them I was keeping it for a second car. Then after we signed on a price I said "well, I may want to trade my car in, what can you do for a price on it?" I also had gotten quotes from 2 ford dealers, carmax, kbb and another random Website. I got up to walk out 3 times during the trade-in negotiation and then ended up settling for $50 less that I wanted. Get the trade in quotes written and bring them in with you. They won't give you as much as ford would but the carmax one helped out b/c kbb was much lower.
Hope this helps!
Congratulations on your new purchase. I cannot wait getting my own soon.
Not doubting what you're saying in any way, $23,000 for a 05 EX V6 including destination looks too good. Like I mentioned before, I believe their "true cost" for this model would be about $22,600 not including destination, or $23,100 including destination. Would it be possible they got their money some other way, like a trade-in or through an extended warranty or some sort of documentation fee? These are some of the typical ways I hear dealers try to compensate for not making any or little money on the "purchase price" itself.
Any details you could add would be greatly appreciated. I don't plan to trade-in my car (will sell the old car to my dad), nor buying an extended warranty (waste of money IMO, specially on a Honda). So, if I can get the the EX V6 for $23,000 w/out any other "paddings" I would definitely get one right now.
Thanks for any information you can give and congrats again.
Joon
You can try getting quotes from other area dealers and see what they say. Ask for the price for the car and destination and including any dealer fees.
An Atlanta area dealer quoted me $18,037 for the same car including destination and dealer fees. Last month it was $200 or so higher. Another dealer in KY is quoting $18,200 for the same car.
$19,034 looks to be the current invoice, so your quote would be $18,734 and would seem several hundred dollars too high. Keep in mind, if you get an "old stock" car from before the Feb price increase the invoice and MSRP will be $100 less.
Dennis