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Dont know the MSRP yet (estimate it to be around 37K with the above options).
Traded-in my 01 EX+NAVI, the 05 model has so many features it is worth the trade-in.
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Despite a dwindling number of '04's, the prices will not go UP. Pricing and features of '05 model will see to that. People are willing to buy yesterday's automotive news, but only at a substantial discount. A certain amount of depreciation needs to be factored on a closeout '04, even if it's new--and yes, even if it's a HONDA!!
BTW, I drove my local Honda dealer here in the Pittsburgh area just last week, and there were about a dozen new '04 Odys still on the lot (not LX's either).
I have to agree with isellhondas. Look at the Current Offers on www.hondacars.com. It has gone down from 10 to 1.
Regards,
Emil
I could see his claim being somewhat true for a vehicle who's only model year change is a price increase. But when a vehicle is all-new, the model it replaces gets a depreciation double-whammy.
On the other hand, I would be extremely surprised if any dealership would be able to milk out anything close to MSRP on any closeout model at this time. I just don't think you'll get an EX-L at invoice either.
Honda also does have this nasty habit of low inventory and slow to increase new lines, thus artificially creating a shortage and pushing prices above MSRP at price gouging/unethical dealerships--I put them on the same page as those gas stations and hotels in Florida after a hurricane strikes.
Supply/Demand can bring up a price of a year end model only so much....but then again, I don't price gouge either.
At this point, most models of 2004 Odysseys are gone. We have zero EXLs at this time as an example.
Any smart dealer will try to maximize his profits on the few remaining cars just like the shoppers will try to wring out the last dollar.
Simple supply and demand.
And, heywood, if you are trying to goad me into a nasty interchange, it isn't going to happen here.
But, it is hard for prices to "tumble" too mch on non existant inventory.
One thing consumer economics DOES ensure is that the few remaining models are the least desirable. It will be difficult for a dealer to maximize profits on these ugly sisters.
Simple supply and demand.
Can you name the dealer?
We saw a lot of gouging in the 2000-2002 seasons for the Ody. Many dealerships were asking MSRP+ then adding on some outrageous dealer add-ons without options to remove them.
When was the last time Target/Walmart etc sold items at MSRP+ and force you to buy an unwanted Barbie doll to pad the profits when a commodity of 'hot' and limited during the holiday season? I can't remember, because it just doesn't happen.
Ethics should trump supply and demand, but 'isellhondas' statement proves my point on salespersons for the less scrupulous dealers (not all of them mind you).
There ARE '04s out there still, so it isn't nonexistant inventory. As stated before, if you get close to invoice pricing, that's probably as good as it's going to get until the '05s are on the lots.
If the dealer is asking near MSRP for an '04, go somewhere else and don't buy the '05 for them either, because chances are that they'll ask MSRP+ or addons or bait/switch something at the end anyways.
The market can be above, at, or below MSRP. A better example of this would be the Ford Thunderbirds. When they first came out, people got on waiting lists and paid, I've heard, 10,000 over MSRP just to get one. Nobody forced these people to buy anything. To these buyers, paying 10K or whatever over MSRP represented good value TO THEM and they bought. Mazda Miatas and PT Cruisers are other good examples.
Of course as supplies increased and the novality wore off the market changed. Now these are hard to sell. Funny how that works.
MSRP is a number that the manufacturer thinks the car should sell for. It's no more unethical for a dealer to adjust prices above that if that's what the market supports anymore than it's unethical for a shopper to demand a steep discount from MSRP on a model that's a slow seller or no longer in demand.
Gouging is taking advantage of someone based on circumstances. Charging a man dying of thirst 100.00 for a glass of water is gouging.
And, yes, there are still 2004's out there. Certain models such as EXL's are all but gone however. I only meant to point out that inventories are dwindling with each passing day and model and color selections are pretty limited.
Great values out there but hurry!
I won't buy a vehicle from any dealer or distributor who engages in this. Others may.
Funny how that works.
Places like this forum helps educate the average consumer on what the MARKET IS and allows a more level playing field that historically favors the salesperson. Every time I mention Edmunds, NAPA, or KBB, the knee jerk response from the salesperson is: That's not correct.
I guess what bothers me about the Ody situation more so than PT cruiser/Miata/Thunderbird is that those cars are novelty items bought by people with extra capital. The Ody is a mainstream vehicle that appealed to the masses average family that wanted a safe, reliable vehicle for the family. There's a clear difference in those two populations.
If one follows the market principles argument against MSRP, then invoice pricing shouldn't matter on the other end of the spectrum either; yet over and again this is used during the purchase agreement. How often have we heard, "I have to make a living on this, look at the invoice price that costs the dealership alone...." or "We're not allowed to sell below invoice".
Also, I believe the Honda S2000 has now joined the 'novelty' club of Thunderbirds, PT Cruisers, and Miatas. Dealers around here are offering S2000's below MSRP. Of course, western PA isn't exactly the best place to own a convertible. But if I lived in CA, I'd come here to buy.
"The internet", however, although a great source of information does not buy and sell cars.
As a result, the numbers don't always reflect reality.
I get tired of explaining to customers why "the internet" didn't include freight when they so nicely gave the invoice pricing.
And it's hard telling a customer why I can't find anyone willing to pay what some internet source told them what their undesirable trade in is "worth".
And, I have to pick my words carefully. I can't discredit their hours of research by telling them the numbers they have are worthless.
If I'm nice, and they do decide to "stick to their guns" and try their prices elsewhere I'll usually get my weary shopper back after reality sets in.
But, yeah...I'm sure there are a lot of salespeople who get testy when internet printouts get waved in their faces and these people need to temper their responses just like shoppers need to not believe everything they read on the internet.
So you're saying that used values on the internet (KBB & NADA websites, etc) are WRONG?.
And I would think anyone who is smart enough to do their internet homework should also be smart enough to know that destination charges are not included in invoice pricing.
Trade-in pricing is a much different game. Invoice (both the 'posted' invoice and what the dealer REALLY paid), is a defined number. Used car pricing is a moving target that depends on so many different factors: Is the buyer trading the same brand as the dealer sells, was it smoked in, ugly color that doesn't sell, etc, etc.
Plus, we all know this is why dealers make much more money on used cars than they do on new ones.
But the bottom line is that more often than not, internet invoice information is correct; And more often than not, the salesman tells you it's inaccurate.
And I never wave anything in anybody's face. When multiple websites give invoice numbers that are within $100 or so, it's insulting for any salesperson to tell me with a straight face that the info is wrong.
I think you mean invoice values? Still time to edit....
Steve, Host
1. The accuracy of internet-obtained new-car invoice pricing.
2. The accuracy of internet-obtained used-car pricing.
My first point is about used-car pricing: Isell says more people are wrong more often on their internet-obtained used-car pricing than with new-car pricing. I am sure this is true to a degree, because new-car pricing is easy to determine (within a $100 or so, depending on the website used). But since most of these sites are zip-code based, I'm wondering why customers are always wrong about their trade-in expectations?
My other point was about new-car pricing: If you get the same invoice price from multiple web sources (again, within $100 or so), it is insulting for a salesperson to tell you that you are wrong.
His 'wave in your face' comment hints that he is tired of well-informed customers. That's OK, Isell, your dealership makes it back ten-fold in the service department....
I think it's easier to defend an invoice price on a new car than a book value on a used one. I suspect a lot of people plug in Outstanding on the TMV appraisal calculators for their car when it has dog hair and cigarette smoke all through the interior, a cracked tail light lens and old tires on it. Or maybe they're trying to trade a Saturn in at the VW dealer.
Lots more variables for the salesperson to hide behind - another reason why it's more money in your pocket if you can sell it yourself.
Steve, Host
But, the "books" still say it's worth 17,000 as a trade in. This to the "smart shopper" becomes gospel. We call for bids and get hit at 4000.00 less than that and we become the bad guys.
At that point I will strongly suggest to the customer that they try to sell it themselves. that's when I'll sometimes learn that the have had an ad running for two weeks and haven't had a call.
As far as new car invoice numbers, these are usually correct. Some of the sources however, neglect to show destination charges or make them hard to find. Then we get the shoppers who bring me the numbers for a five speed when they are shopping for an automatic.
But, in the end, it really doesn't matter. Cars sell for the prevailing market values and what a dealer happened to pay for the car has no bearing on that.
And, having this information often helps me. It tends to eliminate the really ridiculous offers.
TMV's not gospel but it's a pretty good tool, especially if you can be critical (honest? unemotional?) about your own trade-in. If the dealer won't budge, walk - another day, another deal.
Steve, Host
The question being...Where do these "TMV" values come from?
I know as a dealer we would never devulge what a customer paid for a car. No dealer would do such a thing I wouldn't think.
And I really think most buyers if asked would say as I would..." that is none of your business"
And most people don't remember what they paid anyway. Add the complications of a trade and it get's even murkier.
So, how does Edmunds get these numbers?
Prices Paid & Buying Experiences
I can't think of any pricing info that's not available off-hand - US house prices are easy to find on the net, and sales are even published in the paper in places like Tucson. The staple stuff like milk and bread prices are even easier to get. Cars are just commodity items too - it's no great secret what a used clothes washer sells for, much less a 4 year old Odyssey.
I just linked the blurb on how we get TMV prices above. And we're aren't the only service (by far) that collects sales data on the auto industry - we rely on "millions of records of actual used car sales for thousands of makes, models and styles, in all regions of the country and in all colors, updated on a regular basis," plug it into our formula (that's the secret part), and out comes the TMV.
Steve, Host
If the dealers don't and can't disclose actual prices paid and the buyers aren't asked...where do the numbers come from??
The Prices Paid forum is interesting but I think we see a bit of one-upmanship from time to time too. I have seen several examples of deals just too good to be true UNLESS, there was an underallowace on a trade or something.
I remain puzzled but that's O.K. Thanks for the answer, Steve.
Edmunds used to buy sales info from several companies before getting into the business itself (Edmunds Data Services aggregates and analyzes automotive industry data for consumer and business-to-business applications - link).
Here's a CNET blurb about the launch of the data services a few years ago. A net search will flop up other users of the data services, like AutoTrader. Crain Communication, and *gasp*, competing web sites. Guess it's good enough for them (and the NY Times, Wall Street Journal, etc.) if not for you :-)
As far as posts in here, it's up to the consumer to decide whether a bunch of other consumer's comments carry more weight as comments from someone in the business, who may have their own agenda.
Steve, Host
As far as the Prices Paid forums I just hope people are able to ferret out the ones that wouldn't have been possible and I think most probably can.
Interesting link.
[edit] aha- found one reference:
brentwoodvolvo "Engine Sludge? (Forum Closed But Check For Updates))" Mar 26, 2002 1:05am
One more buying article for used cars as trade-ins: lTrading In Your Used Car - The View from the Dealer's side of the Desk
Anyone buying new this weekend?
Steve, Host
A quiet weekend. Always slow the week school starts. On the 22nd we will have the new Odysseys and we will be swamped!
I don't think I said anything about "dubious sources" I simply asked how they get these numbers since there are so many varibles.
And I sure never said that ANYONE who posts here must be exaggerating.
It does happen, however.
Happy now?
I am sure there is immense pressure to try to raise prices to overcome this huge commondity issue, but the competitive nature of cars have held prices steady or even dropped them over the years. How long can this go on? These 2005's, even at MSRP could be steals should the price on the 2006 soar as a result of the base commodities and strong demand continues for the year.
If the pricing structure remains, which would be a boon for consumers, the weak players in each of the segments will be forced out because they will be literally losing money at the pricing structures present. I certainly hope the commodity pressure subsides or we are in for a very bad 2005/2006 with inflation and recession.
I think your observations are well suited to the News & Views board Laundryguy - most makes seem to have a "they're toast" discussion. Here's the Honda one:
Has Honda's run - run out?
Steve, Host
And you're STILL STILL doing it with remarks like, "It does happen, however," with regard to great deals posted on the 'Prices Paid' board possibly being bogus.
Come on....Who would bother wasting their time here discussing bogus cities, dealers, and deals with such specific detail?
Again, just sounds to me like you're tired of well-informed customers.
Of course, turnabout is fair play. Beginning September 22, the balance of power will shift once again, and you can tell customers to 'take it or leave it--we'll sell all we can get.'
1. The ones that are totally believable.
2. Possible but I have to wonder why.
3. Never happened.
So, today's the 13th.......does your dealership have pricing? Rumor had it that pricing would be out today.
If not today, when?
Thanks........
And answer my question: WHY would someone bother?
A more reasonable explanation is that salespersons continue to deny and disbelieve that these sales do occur. I'm surprised isell doesn't require people to post their sales on the forum to prove that the sale did go through.
Let's take the assumption that isell proposes, and it DOES happen. I would as soon as state that several salepersons playing customers post their 'deals' of MSRP+ on hot vehicles or what not...thus some rules enforcement on not mentioning names of salepersons at dealerships.
I'm not about to call someone a liar.
Maybe the poster had a trade that was underallowed on or perhaps the trade in was a very desirable model that the dealer knew they would sell for a nice profit.
Who knows?
eg: I bought an '04 Honda Ody EX-L for $25000 +Tax/fees +mud guards at cost. No trade/no finance. Cash straight up. Sold on 1st of the month no less.
Many a salespersons would right off dismiss this as an insider buy or error. Incorrect, just a regular consumer who was aware of the current market and willing to walk away from 2 dealerships and worked with a manager who was willing to sell and make money instead of posturing.
Most educated buyers will state the difference between in-trade and sales price. In fact, most have learned through these forums to negotiate the new car purchase, financing and trade-in as three separate entities in order to gain the best overall cost.