Tell that to Honda, record sales in January of the CR-V and February wasn't too shabby either. Honda would love to have 16 days of inventory. Mine didn't even have a chance to get its tires warm on the dealer's lot.
I'm pretty sure AutoSite shows dealer to consumer sales as Honda's own site confirms it. You really think factory to dealer is the number we should be looking at? Sorry, I disagree. Regardless, future numbers will tell more.
So Saturn will have the AWD Vue with a 4 cyl. ready in ???, certainly not in the winter when most people would be looking for them. When they have the AWD 4 cyl. ready, people will be thinking convertibles. It's unfortunate that they had the CVT glitch but that can only hurt the overall sales.
Actually, Dindak, even if you compare 4 cyl models, the price difference (comparably equipped) is not as great as you think. A 4cy Vti AWD VUE goes for 26,055 including PDI but to equip it like the CRV-EX Auto (30,550 including PDI) you would have to add: alloy wheels $520 antilock brakes $750 Side air bags $515 Power package $1770 AM/FM 6 disc CD/Cassette w 6 spkers $650 which brings it up to a non-negotiable $30,260.00
A comparably equipped CRV-LX Auto goes for $28,750.00 including PDI versus about $28,860 for the VUE, although the VUE includes a security system whereas the CR-V has an immobilizer/anti-theft radio.
The real advantage of the VUE is that it's available in FWD for thousands less.....if only they could get the VT-i sorted out.
I was not debating which numbers one should or should not look at. I was merely providing a theory as to why the (very) reliable autonews.com factory production figures are different from the autosite figures. If the autosite figures are dealer to consumer, there must be some margin of error, as dealers do not all do a good job reporting sales figures. The various states regularly penalize dealers for taking too long to report sales (tax coming in late and all).
The cute-ute segment is growing at the expense of all segments. Convertibles are not a growth segment. I predict that whenever the 4 cyl. awds hit the market, they will find ready buyers. I question the wisdom of those buyers -- who needs awd 99.9% of the time anyway? -- but am sure there will be many.
Certainly GM did not want to have the vendor misfire on the CVT. But GM is handling it right. Better to have fewer Vues available now than to have recalls.
artdecho : The CR-V I looked at for a slightly lower price didn't have that much equipment???
carguy : You pay list anywhere around here or you don't get an 02 CR-V. That's fact. Maybe demand is soft where you live, but Honda's in general go for close to list regardless in these parts.
Demand ain't soft. You never know unless you try is my motto. If I had listened to everyone I would have walked in expecting to pay MSRP. I doubt I was lucky. I did things that they liked, like being ready with financing, like being ready to take the vehicle the day it came in so it wasn't sitting on their lot, dealing all by email, fax and phone so I didn't waste their time, etc.
As I mentioned, since Honda doesn't meet your needs (something about FWD only) why not try it on a Saturn? Maybe you'll start a trend.
CARGUY SAYS "I have grown tired of you telling people what a value the Vue is and so has everyone else." WHO IS EVERYONE ELSE??? THE PEOPLE on this forum have all been trying to tell YOU that the VUE is a value. I'd say you are sorely mistaken in your belief that others are following your line of argument on this. But you are entitled to your opinion. AND SO AM I.
CARGUY said "People do research on the internet" And I am in full agreement on that but when it comes to laying down the money and checking the price, MOST of US go to the dealership. Most buyers get the price from the lot because THEY KNOW that prices are different across the country as people have readily admitted HERE. So no matter what the price is in CARGUY land, it isn't the price in TIMZ land or DINDAK land or ONELUCKY7 land. So it isn't gonna help a lot of people that will view the forum.
CARGUY says "I made the right choice for me" regardless of cost (paraphrased). I believe that we are also in agreement on this. I said earlier, I paid more for my V-6 because it is the vehicle I wanted, not the vehicle anyone else wanted but what I WANTED, just like the CRV is what you wanted. There is more to the decision than price, QUITE OBVIOUSLY.
CARGUY SAYS "You have shown your juvenile attitude with your latest post and now eveyone knows it." Frankly, I shouldn't even respond to this because it's nothing more than sour grapes. So I will respond by saying that nothing in my post was juvenile but rather I gave my opinion by making intelligent statements. And I will leave it with that.
TIMZ . . . "pop psychology???" "name calling???" Show me where. I didn't call any names nor use psych., just my opinion. This an opinion forum??
TIMZ says "If you want and can afford a so-so first (maybe) year glitch laden unproven product buy Saturn. If you want assured quality and value for your buck, buy HondaToyotaNissanMazdaSubaru etc. Anything prior to a 2nd or 3rd year Saturn could be a very costly mistake." Since you don't own a Vue, I don't think your assessment of it is accurate. And I haven't seen any blatant problems on this message board from the new Vue owners. There have been some minor glitches but certainly less than I have seen from other first year models. EVEN HONDAS have had first year problems and some more significant than any I have seen from Vue owners. I would say, stick to what you own . . . a Nissan, I believe? WHOA don't get me started on the first year problems with that model.
TIMZ says "You have obviously relied on your personal objectivity, your experiences and weighed the risks of purchasing an entirely new model" First, you are right I relied on my personal OPINION based on the facts I garnered through meticulous research and YES, from MY experiences. Secondly, check your facts fella. The only thing new about the model I chose is the frame and the truck-like design. Saturn's polymer panels have been around for years and the engine in the V-6 is the same as the one in the Saturn 300 from a couple of years back. The AWD technology has been used in other GM vehicles for a few years now.
TIMZ says "My observation in over 40 years of car buying is that it's lots better and less expensive to let those eager beaver folk jump out there with the "latest and greatest" and make your choice only after a product has proven itself." YOUR CHOICE AND GAMBLE. I didn't choose the Vue because it was the latest and greatest though. I chose it because IN MY OPINION, it is the best of the choices. I did my research and I chose the best for what I needed and I won't apologize or "sugarcoat" it for those who didn't.
By the way, CARGUY, I admire the fact that you hung around when challenged and spoke your mind. TIMZ left and only returned as a tag along later.
FINALLY Tidester, I've always viewed name calling as the last resort of a desperate man who has no facts left to make an argument. You won't catch me ever resorting to such things. But these gentlemen have personally adressed me so I am personally returning answers to their address WITHOUT NAMECALLING.
I explained it pretty well, sorry you are in denial. And why exactly do you have to yell? I think we all hear you.
Again, for the umpteenth time. The Vue with Sport Package is only available in FWD with a manual transmission. You can't equip a CR-V that way (in the US), so the point is moot.
To end this nonsense I will acquiesce. You are right the Vue is cheaper in FWD with a manual transmission (because no CR-V exists in that configuration). But when other models are looked at (in the US), the difference is negligible or even favors the CR-V.
I didn't think this was about better. Better is way too subjective to even begin to go into. People buy a vehicle that meets their needs. So for some people the Vue is better, for someone else the CR-V is better.
I thought we were talking prices. Call me crazy but I like to put facts out there (not saying anyone else isn't). The numbers don't lie.
You make it sound like I started this, not me but as I said I like to point out the facts. And if I didn't say it before, the Vue with the Sport Package seems like a very good deal, if that is what someone is shopping for. But I guess they better hurry, price goes up and content goes down soon.
And I'm still curious about your name---as a noted radio personality says (paraphrasing), there's more to that story.
I even typoed the "i"! Basically means I'm here to debate for GM, since I rarely find supporters of their products. I love GM products always have always will, I like the way they drive, I like to work on them, I like the way things work in them, and I like how long they last.
So in this forum think of me as the GM evidence provider. I think if you look through my various posts you will find that's pretty much what I do.
I read your recent post on the Vue board and wanted to respond here.
I'm sorry you feel that I was brutal. I don't think I did anything more than point out the prices and the fact that you can't get a CR-V equipped like a Vue with the Sport Package but you are entitled to your opinion.
It was not my intent to be rude, but in the heat of the moment I probably strayed a little too far. Again I apologize if I offended you (or anyone else).
Now if someone wants to know about the folding back seats or the picnic table or the dentless body panels or the orange color (trying desperately to lighten the mood)...
As noted earlier today, sales are not the answer to the question, "which vehicle is better?" However, sales do give us a good idea of what the market wants.
For example, it's been pretty clear that passenger and cargo space are top priorities in this class. Despite each being excellent vehicles in other areas, the CR-V has always out-sold the RAV4, Forester, and all others who fail to meet the CR-V's benchmark. The CR-V wasn't surpassed until the Escape meet that criterion and improved on it with a more powerful engine.
Another thing sales teaches us, is that having a V6 is not a requirement for success. An earlier post remarked about buying the Escape because it was the best seller. That poster was wrong. They would buy the CR-V. The '02 CR-V has been out-selling the Escape since December (the first full month of sales). FWIW, it also out-sells the Liberty, which actually sells more than the Escape.
So, there are things that sales can teach us. Mostly, sales help to define trends in the market. They also tell us who has their finger on those trends.
carguy : Whatever. Fact is I would have pay list for either vehicle. It's not just here as I have read other posts of people that had to pay list for a CR-V also. There are no CR-Vs on the local lot for sale nor are there any VUEs. Have to order or wait.
Go to the back cargo area and inspect it for fit and finish,look at the engine layout and quality of wiring,the details of quality.Look at a BMW it is probably the best and but is a lot more money. The Escape uses a lot of caulking and the carpet is not hemmed just cut.The VUE looks like they cut costs by spray painting styrofoam.Things I do like about Saturn is their sales and service policy of no pressure and cheap maintenance.Their 4 cyl feels strong and is low maintenance.As for looks the VUE is pleasing like a refrigerator. The CRV is cute like a pekinese.If I had the dough I would rather have a BMW X5 but I aint rich.
Maynard, I am still laughing. Youa re exactly right (chuckling. But just like in a family, I think we need more than one bottle to see us through.
But alas we are all better, I think (As I initiate shaking hands with Carguy but still giving Timz THE LOOK)We will just have to agree to disagree on some points and recognize what I said from the beginning of my posts . . . The CRV and Vue are comparably equipped for the most part and whichever you choose, I don't think your bvehicle will be Found On The Road Dead. (wink)
Carguy & onelucky: I think I see the start of a beautiful relationship! He may become oneluckyguy Before, they could have been featured on Jerry Springer. Now, they likely headed for Oprah.
onelucky7; gm_litogation: I have owned a number of GM products over the last 15 years or so............3 Chevrolet powered Motor homes, 3 S-10 pickups, 1 S-15 Sonoma GMC and a 1989 1500 series 4WD Chevy pickup. They make excellent trucks and heavy duty power trains. Each of these vehicles provided fairly reliable service but none of them were 1st year models. The only 1st year model I have ever driven on a consistent basis was a 1986 Acura Integra owned by my new bride. That Civic based car was an outstanding vehicle with virtually no problems.............125K miles and only routine maintenance. The GM products left me stranded only twice, one motor home with transmission problems and an engine computer failure on a 97 S-10. Both problems were take care of by the dealer. The only two vehicles I have ever owned that really dumped on me were an 88 Dodge Shadow and the 94 Saturn, neither of which could be considered even remotely to be good vehicles and dealer performance in both cases was a truly maddening experience. Thus the knock against Saturn. As I stated earlier, I visited the Saturn dealership and didn't like what I saw. As for 4 cyl vs 6 cyl engines, the CRV has more than adequate power for my needs, gets decent fuel mileage and I would expect it to have good residual value when it comes time to replace it. That along with the predicted reliability record will make it an excellent vehicle for me as whatever cars you purchase will hopefully do for you. If you like it, buy it. All I tried to provide was some information about my sad experiences with Saturn along with those of co-workers and friends assuming (perhaps in error) that being the purpose of these forums. However, I have a nasty habit of giving as good as I get when attacked either verbally, physically or in print. Sales figures will prove out which is the more popular and desired vehicle but the matter of better is totally subjective and is the stuff of animosity and cheap shots on forums, mine and yours. I am dissapointed that I let myself get sucked into the "which is better" argument. All that proves is that different folks have different preferences and needs. Nobody "wins". Have a nice day.
GM does, Saturn does not. The VUE will only be made at Spring Hill, where, at best, GM will be able to make between 70 to 100k units and still meet its targets for other Saturn products.
The platform for the VUE will also be the platform for the Tracker and Vitara. GM will probably try to move more than 100k Trackers per year and in the area or 15 to 20k Vitaras. That would put production for the platform (the primary investment for any new model development) close to CRV and Escape/Tribute numbers.
That's a good question. I was wondering the same thing regarding the sale numbers. I have ordered a Sport Ed. Vue and think that its pricing is what pushed me toward the Saturn over the CR-V. However, I think that the V6 may be a little overpriced comming from a value oriented company. Unfortunately the american population heavily favors automatics, so for the majority of non-driving enthusiasts, the sport edition will not appeal. This leaves Honda in a great position as the only really available and useable 4 cylinder SUV w/automatic. I think that a lot of people, myself included want a small, efficient SUV, and hence the 4 cyl. If Saturn/GM had there act together, I think that sales of the 4 banger would bring up the sale numbers significantly.
FWIW, I only condsidered the VUE and CR-V because of the available manual trans. w/4 cyl. engine. Call my SUV wimpy if you like
You always want to produce more products than you sell, that way you have a steady inventory in case demand rises. Unlike Honda, who likes to starve dealers of vehicles (case in point MDX), GM doesn't like to see price goudging at dealerships. Plus this will give you ample inventory for the next years sells. You see production of the 03' VUE will probably begin in like Sept. (guessing)... So by that time they will have 55k 02's built, but in the full year they will have produced 70k units. Something like that, I hope that helps you understand.
Saturn can certainly pump out more than 55K with another shift or overtime, but I think they purposely kept numbers low as they want to ramp up slowly on this, an all new vehicle.
New ION should be miles ahead of the s-series. Can't wait to see it in the fall.
I don't think Honda likes to starve dealers but I suppose anything is possible. A lot of it is related to capacity. They have a new plant coming on-line in the States which will help some. But when you keep announcing new vehicles coming out of this new plant it won't help as much with existing models as it could have. People sometimes forget Honda is a relatively small (but getting bigger all the time--which in my eyes isn't necessarily a good thing) automaker.
Upon further review of your post I just have to laugh. "GM doesn't like to see price goudging at dealerships" You don't think GM would love to have a vehicle that people are clamoring to get and willing to pay sticker or more for? If GM was in Honda or Toyota or whoever's position of having vehicles that people are waiting to buy, what would they do? Sell them at cost to keep their integrity? People seem to fault Honda or Toyota or whoever for charging what the market will support; when it is simply supply and demand. Now if you really believe automakers purposely hold back product than the above arguments don't fit, but I have to doubt that is the case.
If you are Saturn, it is better to make initial sales predictions low and then report beating the mark than vice versa. If I recall, Spring Hill can make up to 300k cars a year. More than likely, Saturn will be looking to move 200k plus IONS, which leaves the VUE at 100k top.
In a year or so, there will be a cross over to replace the L series. I do not know whether GM plans to make that in the Delaware plant. My understanding is that GM would love to close Delaware, but the UAW is balking. If GM decided to move all Saturn production to Spring Hill, then there would have to be an addition to the plant. Nevertheless, I doubt Chevrolet would allow Saturn to make too many Tracker competitors.
But GM actually has several vehicles that people are essentially waiting in line to buy....
Corvette Z06 Chevy Trailblazer Cadillac DTS
These vehicles are bought in my area by signing a waiting list. At the bottom of the list is an agreement by the dealer that they will not charge over MSRP for the vehicle. This MSRP rule is mandated by GM and if you want to sell GM vehicles then you have to live by this rule. It's funny GM's original target for 17,000 Trailblazers a month was totally shattered in Feburary, causing inventory to sink to really low levels. Anyway people are still buying them in droves at less than MSRP.
If GM/Saturn thought that the vehicle was good enough to capture 100,000 yearly sales. (In other words, compete directly with the CR-V and Escape.) Then wouldn't they have alloted the vehicle with enough resources to get the job done?
GM has way more capital than Honda. They could've added another line to the Spring Hill plant and bulked up production, but they didn't. It's true that the VUE will eventually compete with the Tracker replacement. But you don't shoot yourself in the foot today, so that you can make the same amount of money later.
Bottom line: If GM/Saturn thought that the VUE was going to be able to compete with the other segment leaders, they would be building them in larger numbers.
It may be true that Saturn is selling everyone one of them, but that's not surprizing when you consider the low production numbers. If demand were outstripping production (the car is wildly popular), then the manufacturer would be making plans to up the capacity.
That's what Honda had to do when they brought the CR-V over to the states. They reduced Integra production to make room for the CR-V. When the MDX and ODY became wildly popular, Honda began building a new plant to make more Odys.
It's not just the VUE that doesnt' sell as well as its competition, it's the whole Saturn line. I suspect that when the Chevy counterpart arrives, GM will establish that vehicle as a sales leader.
I suspect Saturn is simply starting small and will push numbers up as production in the years to come. The main thing is to keep quality high and perfect the thing before really pushing the numbers. They did that when the s-series first came out as it wasn't even available in Canada for the first year.
Should they have perfected the thing before INTRODUCING it?
Reminds me of what someone had said about GM. Introduce a vehicle with flaws. Then gradually improve and correct until the car is desireable. Then it's time to discontinue it. I think the Fiero was the primo example of this "strategy".
MSRP? Ya sure and you may want to buy a bridge too. Popular GM vehicles, at least their light trucks will usually have anywhere from $1500-$3000 for "Northwest Market Adjustment" added to the sticker. Just like anyone else, they are there to make money and charge whatever the market will bear. To do anything else if you can sell above MSRP would not make good business sense. The new series of Silverado pickups are selling well and are an excellent product. I don't know about the rest of the country but truck crazy buyers in the Northwest are lucky to find one at MSRP. Too bad the early Saturns were not as well thought out.
Dindak - I doubt it. I would understand if GM were afraid of another L-Series incident. The L-Series sold so few, they had to cut back on production. So I could understand if GM is afraid of a flop. Once bitten, twice shy. That's the only reason I can see for taking it slow.
If the VUE were going to be something other than a 55K units per year seller, then we'd know about it already. Demand would be outstripping production. That hasn't happened. A few months of sales shows that the CR-V is selling roughly twice as many units as the VUE. It's hitting a bigger market. It's meeting the needs of more people.
First, you are completely wrong about production rates. As I pointed out earlier, and as can be confirmed on Autonews.com, VUE production rates are already above 55k per year, and that is with Saturn still waiting to be able to have an auto with the 4 cyl.
Second, you are absolutely wrong when you say that GM should not consider corporate wide sales when it considers production numbers for the VUE. GM's market analysis clearly decided GM could find 200k to 250k buyers for small utes. GM has said Saturn will be its more experimental unit, so it naturally got the first small ute. The Saturn dealership network is about 1/10th that of Chevrolet. Plus Chevrolet has the added advantage of being the number one light truck seller. So of course, when GM made its marketing plan, it emphasized Tracker over VUE.
Whether you really mean to or not, you are arguing that Saturn exists as an independent entity that alone competes with Honda/Ford/Toyota/Daimler-Chrysler in the cute-ute market. But Saturn is not an independent company. It is part of a company that also owns Chevrolet. And clearly Chevrolet will be able to move more Trackers when it gets the VUE platform than Saturn.
You are saying that GM should invest money to make expand the Saturn factory and also expand the Saturn dealership network when GM already has the necesary capacity with Chevrolet. Either you are being very tongue in cheek or you are being very silly.
The reality is that the new Tracker will bear a strong family resemblance to the other Chevrolet trucks. GM rightly figures that while 150 to 200k people will clearly want a Chevrolet looking cute-ute, there are many who do not. Thus Saturn's 70 to 100k VUES.
GM isn't selling those hot vehicles at cost are they? That was my point. And someone else has said in his area they charge over MSRP, so it doesn't really matter. Econ 101.
Time will tell on the Vues numbers. Someone keeps talking about 70-100K units. I am no inventory analyst, but my company certainly doesn't produce 25-45K additional units than target, hoping to sell them. So maybe he is on to something. But if they are really producing that many, my guess is they will be having a fire sale at some point. The sales numbers just don't support it. It's April, the Vue has been around since December. The Vue is being advertised on "Survivor" very heavily. That show is watched by 25 million people a week.
People know about it, they just can't get the vehicle that a majority of them want, AWD with auto tranny and a 4 cyl. I still stand by my statement (and it is supported by a very well respected auto writer) that in the middle of summer when the AWD auto tranny 4 cyl. will be available (maybe) people aren't thinking about 4WD vehicles.
varmit : Could be partly that also. L-series was a mistake and they should have built it in Spring Hill also. Unfortunately the UAW tied GM's hands. I am sure GM will sell all they can make so long as they get that CVT up and in production. There are a lot of people waiting for that. The sales guy told me they had 7 on order and no production yet.
The Vue has NOT been around since December . . . nice try though. I bought one of the first off the line (confirmed by Saturn) in early January. They may have been produced in late December bu they weren't selling them till January.
They didn't even advertise them until the Olympics. And now Survivor has one ad for every hour show (also confirmed by Saturn Corporate). I would say they are still not heavily advertised because they don't have the supply to fill any major demand. Unlike some of you, I am unwilling to sign a list and wait for any vehicle, be it a Saturn, Honda or even a Lincoln!! If they hadn't had my Orange V-6 on the lot when I went to buy, forget it. I would have bought something else, maybe another Saturn car . . . maybe a used SUV from Saturn.
Just some food for thought . . . just because "everyone" is jumping to buy a vehicle doesn't mean it's better or the best, it means that those same "everyones" think that it is the the best FOR THEM. I think back to something my mother used to say when I was growing up . . . "Just because everyone else jumps off of a bridge doesn't mean you have to."
When I bought my SUV, I didn't care about sales figures and what the Jones' were driving down the street and what "everyone" else thought was cool or great. I read the reviews by the professionals and went and saw the vehicles and test drove them myself and picked what I LIKED and what was best FOR ME.
The moral to the story is . . . Let Honda out sell the world with it's vehicle. It may be a great vehicle but if you want soemthing solid that doesn't look like every other car on the road, be an individual. Get yourself a Vue. You won't be sorry. When people see my Vue, they say to me, "Wow, I didn't know Saturn made an SUV. I really like the looks of that. It's different." When people see a CRV, they hardly notice or it's "There goes another CRV." Let them rave about sales and their cookie cutter vehicle while you enjoy your ride!!
They started building them (hopefully) before January. People knew about the Vue well before that. That's my opinion. You are right that since they don't have the product to give to the buying public, no real need to get aggressive with advertising.
I think we all came to the conclusion that sales doesn't necessarily equate to a better vehicle. How else do you explain the Cavalier? I know I specifically said you should feel good that you have a unique vehicle that you won't see everywhere you travel. While I would like a unique vehicle, with my needs and what's important to me it probably won't happen.
And again my opinion, but if people follow your advice and buy the Vue so they won't be the same as everyone else (funny how ~150K CR-Vs annually constitutes everyone) they better be darn sure it is the vehicle that meets their needs. To buy something just to be different doesn't seem a good use of money. But that is my opinion.
And people do notice the CR-V, at least mine. I have people asking me about it all the time. "CR-V" is not very prominent on the vehicle, but "Honda" is. Someone asked me "is that Honda's new SUV?". After talking with them, they thought it was the Pilot. IMO the CR-V is not a cookie cutter design. That's one of problems people have with it. But of course you will find the opposite opinion as well. Getting around the body panels and the gaps necessary for expansion, I think the Vue doesn't look very unique. It looks like an SUV. But again that is my opinion.
CARGUY says "And again my opinion, but if people follow your advice and buy the Vue so they won't be the same as everyone else (funny how ~150K CR-Vs annually constitutes everyone) they better be darn sure it is the vehicle that meets their needs"
Read my post again CARGUY. I didn't say everyone was buying the CRV. I didn't even bring up CRV till the last paragraph. I said that people should not buy A VEHICLE because everyone is buying it. It doesn't say anything about the CRV. And I didn't say buy the vehicle so you "won't be like everyone else". I said, be an individual in making your decision. Pick what works for you, NOT what works for someone else. Avoid being a cookie cutter.
And in my opinion, the Vue looks completely different than any other SUV on the road, friend. You say it looks like an SUV . . . really???? And I thought it was supposed to look like a car!!!
Sorry bud, but anyone can look at the Vue and tell you it doesn't look like any other SUV on the road. Some people think it's unique. Some think it's ugly. But they all think it's a different look and design. But Honda land's got ya looking through those Japanese glasses. I guess all Americans look the same.
Just because they knew about it in December doesn't have anything to do with it being available. You said in your earlier post that the Vue was available in December. I was simply correcting you. The Vue was not available in December. It only became partially available in January. And still all models are not available.
People know about the Ion too but that doesn't mean they can go buy one. THAT'S NOT MY OPINION BUT RATHER FACT!!!!!!!!
You are an unreasonable person. So the Vue can't look like an SUV to me? Well that's what it looks like to me, sorry if you don't like it. Although since I've only seen one in person in a city with 8 million people maybe I am imagining it.
I have been more than gracious in this petty argument you insist on keeping going. I even apologized needlessly to lighten things up. You never even responded.
So tell me, do you still think the Vue is cheaper than the CR-V? Bet you do. Well you know something, you are wrong. At one point you said I was trying to justify my purchase, look hard in the mirror because you are doing it better than anyone I've ever seen.
Enjoy your unique orange Vue. Maybe I'll see you, should be pretty easy to spot.
Logic1 - I'll take two things from the above... Your right (I assume) about the production numbers. I was taking them from what someone else wrote earlier. Maybe I'm confusing it with sales. GM does have a bigger sales network than Saturn and would take on the heavier load. That's a good point. But on the other hand Honda isn't as big as Ford, GM, Chevy, or Toyota and yet they're selling more units than anyone else.
Getting back to the point. This is why I mentioned sales. People buy the car that meets their needs. Therefore, the car that sells the most units is meeting the most needs of the most people. Another way of saying that is, the car that sells the most units is the best car.
Maybe one of those needs is the fact that the car is backed by a larger dealership network. If there are 16 Ford dealers in town, I can pick and choose who will repair my car. They also compete for my dollar when it's time to buy. So prices are lower.
MacDonalds doesn't have the best burgers because they taste the best. They are the best because anyone can get one anywhere in North America and they're convenient. The burgers at your local pub may taste better, but I'd have to get on a plane to go there. Even if I was local, does the pub have a drive-thru? Would I have to wait at a table for it to be cooked?
That is what makes the CR-V such a remarkable contender. Honda doesn't have a huge dealership network. Honda doesn't have a huge advertising budget. Honda doesn't have a long proud history of building and selling SUVs. Honda doesn't have any of that. Instead, Honda earned the mini-SUV crown by creating the product that meets the needs of the most people.
The argument for the VUE is sort of like the saying: "If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?" The VUE could, technically and aesthetically, be the best, but if no one buys it (I'm exagerating here for illustration purposes!), is it any good? After all, a car (or any product) is built to serve people's wants and needs.
Well, that's kind of my point. If the VUE were truly something special, we'd know about it. People buy the cars that meet their needs. And they ain't buying the VUE in the same quantities that the CR-V is selling.
Before I get too far gone... I'm not saying that the CR-V is the king and will rule forever. It's just a good car, not a landmark car. It appears that the public has spoken and rated the VUE as an acceptable car, but otherwise nothing special. I'm not sure I agree with that, but people vote with their wallets and the ballots are in.
Comments
I'm pretty sure AutoSite shows dealer to consumer sales as Honda's own site confirms it. You really think factory to dealer is the number we should be looking at? Sorry, I disagree. Regardless, future numbers will tell more.
So Saturn will have the AWD Vue with a 4 cyl. ready in ???, certainly not in the winter when most people would be looking for them. When they have the AWD 4 cyl. ready, people will be thinking convertibles. It's unfortunate that they had the CVT glitch but that can only hurt the overall sales.
A 4cy Vti AWD VUE goes for 26,055 including PDI
but to equip it like the CRV-EX Auto (30,550 including PDI) you would have to add:
alloy wheels $520
antilock brakes $750
Side air bags $515
Power package $1770
AM/FM 6 disc CD/Cassette w 6 spkers $650
which brings it up to a non-negotiable $30,260.00
A comparably equipped CRV-LX Auto goes for $28,750.00 including PDI versus about $28,860 for the VUE, although the VUE includes a security system whereas the CR-V has an immobilizer/anti-theft radio.
The real advantage of the VUE is that it's available in FWD for thousands less.....if only they could get the VT-i sorted out.
The cute-ute segment is growing at the expense of all segments. Convertibles are not a growth segment. I predict that whenever the 4 cyl. awds hit the market, they will find ready buyers. I question the wisdom of those buyers -- who needs awd 99.9% of the time anyway? -- but am sure there will be many.
Certainly GM did not want to have the vendor misfire on the CVT. But GM is handling it right. Better to have fewer Vues available now than to have recalls.
carguy : You pay list anywhere around here or you don't get an 02 CR-V. That's fact. Maybe demand is soft where you live, but Honda's in general go for close to list regardless in these parts.
As I mentioned, since Honda doesn't meet your needs (something about FWD only) why not try it on a Saturn? Maybe you'll start a trend.
CARGUY SAYS "I have grown tired of you telling people what a value the Vue is and so has everyone else." WHO IS EVERYONE ELSE??? THE PEOPLE on this forum have all been trying to tell YOU that the VUE is a value. I'd say you are sorely mistaken in your belief that others are following your line of argument on this. But you are entitled to your opinion. AND SO AM I.
CARGUY said "People do research on the internet" And I am in full agreement on that but when it comes to laying down the money and checking the price, MOST of US go to the dealership. Most buyers get the price from the lot because THEY KNOW that prices are different across the country as people have readily admitted HERE. So no matter what the price is in CARGUY land, it isn't the price in TIMZ land or DINDAK land or ONELUCKY7 land. So it isn't gonna help a lot of people that will view the forum.
CARGUY says "I made the right choice for me" regardless of cost (paraphrased). I believe that we are also in agreement on this. I said earlier, I paid more for my V-6 because it is the vehicle I wanted, not the vehicle anyone else wanted but what I WANTED, just like the CRV is what you wanted. There is more to the decision than price, QUITE OBVIOUSLY.
CARGUY SAYS "You have shown your juvenile attitude with your latest post and now eveyone knows it." Frankly, I shouldn't even respond to this because it's nothing more than sour grapes. So I will respond by saying that nothing in my post was juvenile but rather I gave my opinion by making intelligent statements. And I will leave it with that.
TIMZ . . . "pop psychology???" "name calling???" Show me where. I didn't call any names nor use psych., just my opinion. This an opinion forum??
TIMZ says "If you want and can afford a so-so first (maybe) year glitch laden unproven product buy Saturn. If you want assured quality and value for your buck, buy HondaToyotaNissanMazdaSubaru etc. Anything prior to a 2nd or 3rd year Saturn could be a very costly mistake." Since you don't own a Vue, I don't think your assessment of it is accurate. And I haven't seen any blatant problems on this message board from the new Vue owners. There have been some minor glitches but certainly less than I have seen from other first year models. EVEN HONDAS have had first year problems and some more significant than any I have seen from Vue owners. I would say, stick to what you own . . . a Nissan, I believe? WHOA don't get me started on the first year problems with that model.
TIMZ says "You have obviously relied on your personal objectivity, your experiences and weighed the risks of purchasing an entirely new model" First, you are right I relied on my personal OPINION based on the facts I garnered through meticulous research and YES, from MY experiences. Secondly, check your facts fella. The only thing new about the model I chose is the frame and the truck-like design. Saturn's polymer panels have been around for years and the engine in the V-6 is the same as the one in the Saturn 300 from a couple of years back. The AWD technology has been used in other GM vehicles for a few years now.
TIMZ says "My observation in over 40 years of car buying is that it's lots better and less expensive to let those eager beaver folk jump out there with the "latest and greatest" and make your choice only after a product has proven itself." YOUR CHOICE AND GAMBLE. I didn't choose the Vue because it was the latest and greatest though. I chose it because IN MY OPINION, it is the best of the choices. I did my research and I chose the best for what I needed and I won't apologize or "sugarcoat" it for those who didn't.
By the way, CARGUY, I admire the fact that you hung around when challenged and spoke your mind. TIMZ left and only returned as a tag along later.
FINALLY Tidester, I've always viewed name calling as the last resort of a desperate man who has no facts left to make an argument. You won't catch me ever resorting to such things. But these gentlemen have personally adressed me so I am personally returning answers to their address WITHOUT NAMECALLING.
http://65.65.5.148/sportplus.jpg
Again, for the umpteenth time. The Vue with Sport Package is only available in FWD with a manual transmission. You can't equip a CR-V that way (in the US), so the point is moot.
To end this nonsense I will acquiesce. You are right the Vue is cheaper in FWD with a manual transmission (because no CR-V exists in that configuration). But when other models are looked at (in the US), the difference is negligible or even favors the CR-V.
I thought we were talking prices. Call me crazy but I like to put facts out there (not saying anyone else isn't). The numbers don't lie.
You make it sound like I started this, not me but as I said I like to point out the facts. And if I didn't say it before, the Vue with the Sport Package seems like a very good deal, if that is what someone is shopping for. But I guess they better hurry, price goes up and content goes down soon.
And I'm still curious about your name---as a noted radio personality says (paraphrasing), there's more to that story.
So in this forum think of me as the GM evidence provider. I think if you look through my various posts you will find that's pretty much what I do.
I'm sorry you feel that I was brutal. I don't think I did anything more than point out the prices and the fact that you can't get a CR-V equipped like a Vue with the Sport Package but you are entitled to your opinion.
It was not my intent to be rude, but in the heat of the moment I probably strayed a little too far. Again I apologize if I offended you (or anyone else).
Now if someone wants to know about the folding back seats or the picnic table or the dentless body panels or the orange color (trying desperately to lighten the mood)...
Pass the wine.
For example, it's been pretty clear that passenger and cargo space are top priorities in this class. Despite each being excellent vehicles in other areas, the CR-V has always out-sold the RAV4, Forester, and all others who fail to meet the CR-V's benchmark. The CR-V wasn't surpassed until the Escape meet that criterion and improved on it with a more powerful engine.
Another thing sales teaches us, is that having a V6 is not a requirement for success. An earlier post remarked about buying the Escape because it was the best seller. That poster was wrong. They would buy the CR-V. The '02 CR-V has been out-selling the Escape since December (the first full month of sales). FWIW, it also out-sells the Liberty, which actually sells more than the Escape.
So, there are things that sales can teach us. Mostly, sales help to define trends in the market. They also tell us who has their finger on those trends.
and finish,look at the engine layout and quality
of wiring,the details of quality.Look at a BMW it is probably the best and but is a lot more money.
The Escape uses a lot of caulking and the carpet is not hemmed just cut.The VUE looks like they cut
costs by spray painting styrofoam.Things I do like about Saturn is their sales and service
policy of no pressure and cheap maintenance.Their
4 cyl feels strong and is low maintenance.As for
looks the VUE is pleasing like a refrigerator.
The CRV is cute like a pekinese.If I had the dough I would rather have a BMW X5 but I aint rich.
But alas we are all better, I think (As I initiate shaking hands with Carguy but still giving Timz THE LOOK)We will just have to agree to disagree on some points and recognize what I said from the beginning of my posts . . . The CRV and Vue are comparably equipped for the most part and whichever you choose, I don't think your bvehicle will be Found On The Road Dead. (wink)
Before, they could have been featured on Jerry Springer. Now, they likely headed for Oprah.
Sales figures will prove absolutely nothing as production numbers for the VUE are much lower than the competition.
The platform for the VUE will also be the platform for the Tracker and Vitara. GM will probably try to move more than 100k Trackers per year and in the area or 15 to 20k Vitaras. That would put production for the platform (the primary investment for any new model development) close to CRV and Escape/Tribute numbers.
That's a good question. I was wondering the same thing regarding the sale numbers. I have ordered a Sport Ed. Vue and think that its pricing is what pushed me toward the Saturn over the CR-V. However, I think that the V6 may be a little overpriced comming from a value oriented company. Unfortunately the american population heavily favors automatics, so for the majority of non-driving enthusiasts, the sport edition will not appeal. This leaves Honda in a great position as the only really available and useable 4 cylinder SUV w/automatic. I think that a lot of people, myself included want a small, efficient SUV, and hence the 4 cyl. If Saturn/GM had there act together, I think that sales of the 4 banger would bring up the sale numbers significantly.
FWIW, I only condsidered the VUE and CR-V because of the available manual trans. w/4 cyl. engine. Call my SUV wimpy if you like
-LL
OT seen the Ion.....interesting.
New ION should be miles ahead of the s-series. Can't wait to see it in the fall.
In a year or so, there will be a cross over to replace the L series. I do not know whether GM plans to make that in the Delaware plant. My understanding is that GM would love to close Delaware, but the UAW is balking. If GM decided to move all Saturn production to Spring Hill, then there would have to be an addition to the plant. Nevertheless, I doubt Chevrolet would allow Saturn to make too many Tracker competitors.
Corvette Z06
Chevy Trailblazer
Cadillac DTS
These vehicles are bought in my area by signing a waiting list. At the bottom of the list is an agreement by the dealer that they will not charge over MSRP for the vehicle. This MSRP rule is mandated by GM and if you want to sell GM vehicles then you have to live by this rule. It's funny GM's original target for 17,000 Trailblazers a month was totally shattered in Feburary, causing inventory to sink to really low levels. Anyway people are still buying them in droves at less than MSRP.
If GM/Saturn thought that the vehicle was good enough to capture 100,000 yearly sales. (In other words, compete directly with the CR-V and Escape.) Then wouldn't they have alloted the vehicle with enough resources to get the job done?
GM has way more capital than Honda. They could've added another line to the Spring Hill plant and bulked up production, but they didn't. It's true that the VUE will eventually compete with the Tracker replacement. But you don't shoot yourself in the foot today, so that you can make the same amount of money later.
Bottom line: If GM/Saturn thought that the VUE was going to be able to compete with the other segment leaders, they would be building them in larger numbers.
It may be true that Saturn is selling everyone one of them, but that's not surprizing when you consider the low production numbers. If demand were outstripping production (the car is wildly popular), then the manufacturer would be making plans to up the capacity.
That's what Honda had to do when they brought the CR-V over to the states. They reduced Integra production to make room for the CR-V. When the MDX and ODY became wildly popular, Honda began building a new plant to make more Odys.
That isn't happening for Saturn.
Reminds me of what someone had said about GM. Introduce a vehicle with flaws. Then gradually improve and correct until the car is desireable. Then it's time to discontinue it. I think the Fiero was the primo example of this "strategy".
If the VUE were going to be something other than a 55K units per year seller, then we'd know about it already. Demand would be outstripping production. That hasn't happened. A few months of sales shows that the CR-V is selling roughly twice as many units as the VUE. It's hitting a bigger market. It's meeting the needs of more people.
Second, you are absolutely wrong when you say that GM should not consider corporate wide sales when it considers production numbers for the VUE. GM's market analysis clearly decided GM could find 200k to 250k buyers for small utes. GM has said Saturn will be its more experimental unit, so it naturally got the first small ute. The Saturn dealership network is about 1/10th that of Chevrolet. Plus Chevrolet has the added advantage of being the number one light truck seller. So of course, when GM made its marketing plan, it emphasized Tracker over VUE.
Whether you really mean to or not, you are arguing that Saturn exists as an independent entity that alone competes with Honda/Ford/Toyota/Daimler-Chrysler in the cute-ute market. But Saturn is not an independent company. It is part of a company that also owns Chevrolet. And clearly Chevrolet will be able to move more Trackers when it gets the VUE platform than Saturn.
You are saying that GM should invest money to make expand the Saturn factory and also expand the Saturn dealership network when GM already has the necesary capacity with Chevrolet. Either you are being very tongue in cheek or you are being very silly.
The reality is that the new Tracker will bear a strong family resemblance to the other Chevrolet trucks. GM rightly figures that while 150 to 200k people will clearly want a Chevrolet looking cute-ute, there are many who do not. Thus Saturn's 70 to 100k VUES.
Time will tell on the Vues numbers. Someone keeps talking about 70-100K units. I am no inventory analyst, but my company certainly doesn't produce 25-45K additional units than target, hoping to sell them. So maybe he is on to something. But if they are really producing that many, my guess is they will be having a fire sale at some point. The sales numbers just don't support it. It's April, the Vue has been around since December. The Vue is being advertised on "Survivor" very heavily. That show is watched by 25 million people a week.
People know about it, they just can't get the vehicle that a majority of them want, AWD with auto tranny and a 4 cyl. I still stand by my statement (and it is supported by a very well respected auto writer) that in the middle of summer when the AWD auto tranny 4 cyl. will be available (maybe) people aren't thinking about 4WD vehicles.
They didn't even advertise them until the Olympics. And now Survivor has one ad for every hour show (also confirmed by Saturn Corporate). I would say they are still not heavily advertised because they don't have the supply to fill any major demand. Unlike some of you, I am unwilling to sign a list and wait for any vehicle, be it a Saturn, Honda or even a Lincoln!! If they hadn't had my Orange V-6 on the lot when I went to buy, forget it. I would have bought something else, maybe another Saturn car . . . maybe a used SUV from Saturn.
Just some food for thought . . . just because "everyone" is jumping to buy a vehicle doesn't mean it's better or the best, it means that those same "everyones" think that it is the the best FOR THEM. I think back to something my mother used to say when I was growing up . . . "Just because everyone else jumps off of a bridge doesn't mean you have to."
When I bought my SUV, I didn't care about sales figures and what the Jones' were driving down the street and what "everyone" else thought was cool or great. I read the reviews by the professionals and went and saw the vehicles and test drove them myself and picked what I LIKED and what was best FOR ME.
The moral to the story is . . . Let Honda out sell the world with it's vehicle. It may be a great vehicle but if you want soemthing solid that doesn't look like every other car on the road, be an individual. Get yourself a Vue. You won't be sorry. When people see my Vue, they say to me, "Wow, I didn't know Saturn made an SUV. I really like the looks of that. It's different." When people see a CRV, they hardly notice or it's "There goes another CRV." Let them rave about sales and their cookie cutter vehicle while you enjoy your ride!!
I think we all came to the conclusion that sales doesn't necessarily equate to a better vehicle. How else do you explain the Cavalier? I know I specifically said you should feel good that you have a unique vehicle that you won't see everywhere you travel. While I would like a unique vehicle, with my needs and what's important to me it probably won't happen.
And again my opinion, but if people follow your advice and buy the Vue so they won't be the same as everyone else (funny how ~150K CR-Vs annually constitutes everyone) they better be darn sure it is the vehicle that meets their needs. To buy something just to be different doesn't seem a good use of money. But that is my opinion.
And people do notice the CR-V, at least mine. I have people asking me about it all the time. "CR-V" is not very prominent on the vehicle, but "Honda" is. Someone asked me "is that Honda's new SUV?". After talking with them, they thought it was the Pilot. IMO the CR-V is not a cookie cutter design. That's one of problems people have with it. But of course you will find the opposite opinion as well. Getting around the body panels and the gaps necessary for expansion, I think the Vue doesn't look very unique. It looks like an SUV. But again that is my opinion.
Read my post again CARGUY. I didn't say everyone was buying the CRV. I didn't even bring up CRV till the last paragraph. I said that people should not buy A VEHICLE because everyone is buying it. It doesn't say anything about the CRV. And I didn't say buy the vehicle so you "won't be like everyone else". I said, be an individual in making your decision. Pick what works for you, NOT what works for someone else. Avoid being a cookie cutter.
And in my opinion, the Vue looks completely different than any other SUV on the road, friend. You say it looks like an SUV . . . really???? And I thought it was supposed to look like a car!!!
Sorry bud, but anyone can look at the Vue and tell you it doesn't look like any other SUV on the road. Some people think it's unique. Some think it's ugly. But they all think it's a different look and design. But Honda land's got ya looking through those Japanese glasses. I guess all Americans look the same.
People know about the Ion too but that doesn't mean they can go buy one. THAT'S NOT MY OPINION BUT RATHER FACT!!!!!!!!
I have been more than gracious in this petty argument you insist on keeping going. I even apologized needlessly to lighten things up. You never even responded.
So tell me, do you still think the Vue is cheaper than the CR-V? Bet you do. Well you know something, you are wrong. At one point you said I was trying to justify my purchase, look hard in the mirror because you are doing it better than anyone I've ever seen.
Enjoy your unique orange Vue. Maybe I'll see you, should be pretty easy to spot.
Anyway I can't believe you didn't understand my explanation on production, I suggest you read it again. I'm not about to waste anymore time with it.
Getting back to the point. This is why I mentioned sales. People buy the car that meets their needs. Therefore, the car that sells the most units is meeting the most needs of the most people. Another way of saying that is, the car that sells the most units is the best car.
Maybe one of those needs is the fact that the car is backed by a larger dealership network. If there are 16 Ford dealers in town, I can pick and choose who will repair my car. They also compete for my dollar when it's time to buy. So prices are lower.
MacDonalds doesn't have the best burgers because they taste the best. They are the best because anyone can get one anywhere in North America and they're convenient. The burgers at your local pub may taste better, but I'd have to get on a plane to go there. Even if I was local, does the pub have a drive-thru? Would I have to wait at a table for it to be cooked?
That is what makes the CR-V such a remarkable contender. Honda doesn't have a huge dealership network. Honda doesn't have a huge advertising budget. Honda doesn't have a long proud history of building and selling SUVs. Honda doesn't have any of that. Instead, Honda earned the mini-SUV crown by creating the product that meets the needs of the most people.
Before I get too far gone... I'm not saying that the CR-V is the king and will rule forever. It's just a good car, not a landmark car. It appears that the public has spoken and rated the VUE as an acceptable car, but otherwise nothing special. I'm not sure I agree with that, but people vote with their wallets and the ballots are in.