If the 6 wagon comes over(cross my fingers) it would be an instant hit, there really is no competition here for it, subaru offer's nothing really sport, honda and toyota dont even offer a wagon, that leave's vw/audi and there is no way in hell i am going to drop that much money on a car that is so unreliable!!!! Mazda all u need to do is bring over the wagon, and let it do the rest for you!!!!!
"if you think about it too long, you get cold feet."
This is my current situation, not that I have the funds to do anything to remedy it anyway.
If I had been able to buy last year, I would be driving a RSX type S. In the meantime of waiting, the Altima entered my radar screen, followed by the Matrix and most recently the WRX wagon. Now this Mazda 6 wagon is in the competition as well.
Having lived in europe for more than half of my driving career, my tastes are heavily influenced by the market there. I would love to have an Alfa Romeo 156 sportwagon, Audi A4 avant, Volvo v40 with a real transmission, even a Fiat Marea wagon would suit me. Passat is nice but like others here I don't trust it's reliability. We used to joke that his Passat was really a "passiert" (happened) as in "was ist dem Passat jetzt passiert?" (what happened to the Passat now?)
I just hope that Mazda doesn't goof the wagon when they do bring it by making the manny tranny a factory order item. I don't want to order a car. I want to buy a car and drive away the same day.
When I was out drooling over the Altima SEs, there was only one dealer (out of three) that had one (just one) with a manual transmission. Slushboxes everywhere.
I noted recently on some website/car review page (was it Top Gear, or Automobile/Auto from Europe) that the Alfa Romeo wagon had been displaced by the Mazda6 for the most (fun/value for money/utilitarian) wagon in Europe. Pretty high praise, I'd say - the Passat isn't even a serious contender there any more!
Good to hear some German here - been a while since I had a chance to practice my high school German speaking skills, but should that sentence be "Was ist MIT dem passat jetzt passiert?"? He He - I imagine colloquially you can just leave out the 'mit'.
Mazda has made it clear they will make Auto and 5 speed available across the board (sedan, wagon and hatchback) - but you're right, given the average American's morbid fear of (or dislike of - given how many 'more important things' they'd rather be doing in a car) manual trannys, Mazda may option it differently when it gets here. Hopefully not, though!
no not really. The mit works just as well, but with a slightly different meaning. To an american it can look awkward because one would want to see the "to the" but dem handles that.
Good to hear about the availability of the manual transmission. Won't consider a car without one.
Hadn't been keeping up on the Euro scene as much lately since I just get irritated that I can't have those cars. A few years back I was seriously looking at trying to bring over an Alfa GTV (gee tee vew -not gee tee vee - mmkay?) and dealing with the lack of parts and the conversion stuff.
Heard Alfa was gonna reenter the US market in 04, but I am not holding my breath.
The Mazda6 should make a very nice ersatz euromobile for me.
I have a feeling that if Mazda truly decides to bring both the 5-door and the wagon to the US (I still haven't seen anything really official from Mazda that says it will for sure happen), that the 5-door will be pitched as the performance car and the wagon will be pitched as a sporty, but family-oriented wagon, with availability of options, transmissions, and engines that follow these targets. The Euro sites I've seen really seem to be emphasis the 5-door as the performance car.
And I've heard that each separate body style/engine/tranny option requires a separate certification for emissions, fuel, and safety standards and it runs over $100K per. So I'm skeptical that Mazda will certify all the combos of three body styles X two engines X two trannys - 12 combos in all. This many options also makes it harder for dealers to keep inventory. My guess: no 4-cyl in the wagon or 5-door, no manual for the wagon. I hope I'm wrong.
Actually for EPA fuel economy/emissions testing purposes all vehicles with the same engine and transmission and within 500 lbs of each other can use the same fuel economy numbers.
This is done specifically so that different body styles do not have to be retested, but some manufactures use it as a loophole, and use the same numbers for different nameplates. Examples: BMW 530i and 330ci convertable are both 24.3396 for their combined average - coincidence? Subaru Legacy, Impreza and Forestor are all 27.2821; Buick Le Sabre, Park Avenue, and Pontiac Bonneville are all 26.7043.
isn't much of an indication that they used the same EPA testing. The numbers are so coarse, if you have hundreds of cars being tested all with city mileage between 16 and 23, then there are going to be a lot of coincidental matches for both numbers. I would be flabbergasted if BMW was able to use the some certification test for the 530i sedan and the 330ci convertible.
But I don't have hard information - just what some so-called experts have said on the internet, that any substantial change if body/engine/tranny requires a separate test. And I know the mfgs have steadfastly said that a big reason they don't bring in manual transmissions in very many models is because of the extra cost of testing.
Again, I hope I'm wrong. Personally, I want the V6, but I can certainly understand the appeal of the four to many. And if the car doesn't have the manual, I won't even consider it. I've told Mazda this from their web site.
a big reason they don't bring in manual transmissions in very many models is because of the extra cost of testing." Certifying an 2003 Accord V6 sedan with a 5-sp manual is different from certifying a Mazda6 Wagon or 5-door 4-cyl when the 4-door has already been certified.
"Just because two cars have the same numbers isn't much of an indication that they used the same EPA testing. The numbers are so coarse, if you have hundreds of cars being tested all with city mileage between 16 and 23, then there are going to be a lot of coincidental matches for both numbers." What? Read dudleyr's post again. We're talking about the same EPA number for two different models down to four decimal places. This is definitely not "coarse".
I only used the example of the combined mileage because I thought it would be simpler. If anyone cares to look at the link I provided it is plain to see that for the vehicles I mentioned the city mileage is the same to 4 decimal points, the highway mileage is the same to 4 decimal points, and (of course) the combined mileage is the same to 4 decimal points. There are also many other examples as well, I just picked a few.
I am not a statistician, but I would venture to say that the odds of the exact same car getting the same results twice are very very small. The chances of three different cars (that are different sizes) getting the same number to 4 decimal places on two different tests would have to be very much less likely than winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning the same day.
If I can find it again, I will post a link to the EPA testing procedures.
before and now I did...you guys are right, there are a few suspicious replications out to several decimal places which looks like one test is being used for more than one model.
But by the same token, looking at the BMW 3- and 5-series sedans, I see 2 replications of numbers over 16 different models, meaning that it appears that to certify the 16 3- and 5-series sedam models, it took 14 tests.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't know precisely how they slice and dice car models for these tests, but I'll stand on the jist of my original statement: it is unlikely we'll get all all 12 combos of possible Mazda 6's and certification and testing costs will be one reason why.
One reason that BMW can't use the same data for all their 3 and 5 series cars is that they use several different engines, and even when they use the same engine they use different transmissions (actually the tranny may be the same, but either the final drive is different, or some of the gears themselves).
I came accross this when I was comparing the 325it (wagon) to the 325i (sedan). I wondered why the EPA numbers were different, and looked up the tranny data. The 325it has a 3.46 final drive (and turns 2805 rpm @ 60 mph) while the 325i has a 3.15 final drive (and turns 2554 rpm @ 60 mph), so the wagon has a lower EPA highway number(as it was tested seperatly because of different transmission), and for good reason since the engine is turning faster.
The EPA "loophole" only works if the engine and transmission (including final drive ratio) are identical.
Also remember that Mazdas parent company (Ford) has already learned the lesson of not having a 5-speed on the Focus wagon. This vehicle had no 5-speed its first year, and after many complaints (on this very board even) they offered a 5-speed as a no cost option the next year - still more complaints, so now it is a $715 (if memory serves) deduct. If the Focus were as reliable as a Mazda I would probably be very serious about getting one.
Back to the original subject. If Mazda does not change the tranny from car to car (and I doubt they would since they all have the same mission of being drivers cars) they will only need 4 tests for all 12 versions of the cars.
(Raw city mpg X 0.90) (rounded to whole number)= Official EPA City Rating (Raw highway mpg X 0.78??) (round to whole number)= Official EPA Highway Rating
Some raw data are suspiciously only rounded to one decimal place.
Example: 2002 VW Jetta Sedan 1.9L TDI with 5-sp: 46.5427/62.7912 (42/49)
2002 VW Jetta Wagon 1.9L TDI with 5-sp: 46.7/64 (42/50)
I doubt they have different manual transmissions and/or final drive ratios.
I heard someone mentioned the Wagon had better aerodynamics. Fine, but then:
2002 VW Jetta Sedan 2.0L with 4-sp auto: 25.1767/37.2911 (23/29)
2002 VW Jetta Wagon 2.0L with 4-sp auto: 24.8059/36.9041 (22/29)
Regarding the Jetta. I think those differences may be because once a car is tested it does not need to be retested every year unless there has been a change in the drivetrain (EPA will occasionally make manufacturers do spot check tests to verify this). When a new model is introduced (the wagon was introduced after the sedan) it needs to be tested just to make sure it is the same. The resulting differences are just the normal diffs that would be found testing two "identical" cars. This is partly speculation on my part, but probably not too far off. Also a manuf is free to perfrom more than the minimum number of tests.
here is a link to the testing procedures I mentioned in a previous post.
So I don't get in trouble for being off topic, I will add that I really do think that Mazda will bring the wagon over (with manual tranny). It would help to further differentiate it from Honda and Toyota, both of whom do not have a single wagon (I know the Matrix is wagon-like, but a real wagon is not 7 inches shorter than the sedan).
I posted these links on the main Mazda 6 board, but since the site in question had a couple of previously unseen wagon photos (at least by me), I thought I'd post here too.
Through a reference in another board (regarding a GM vehicle), I've examined a Spanish web site which turns out to have the best (and particularly HIGHEST RESOLUTION) images of the 6 that I've been able to find on the net. Most are 1024x768 (approx.).
In addition to seeing some familiar photos (but at higher resolution, which is great for examining details of the dashboard, for example), there are also some shots I'd never seen elsewhere (like a cutaway side shot of the wagon interior).
SO, exterior photos (clickable to enlarge) are at:
Seems like it. I want to know whether or not Sirius Satellite Radio is going to be an option. If it isn't, I may shop elsewhere...(I have had Sirius, XM's competitor, for about two months, and would NOT want to live without it!)
I'd be interested to read an elaboration of your reasons for being so enthused about the satellite radio. I haven't had a chance to check one out yet, myself.
Read other websites and reviews of XM/Sirius. Listen to them online.
They don't repeat songs, play great music, have less/no ads, sound way better than FM, cost almost nothing - what's not to like?
I've had XM in my Protege for 3+ months now, and certainly won't live without it in any future car I own! I rarely ever switch to my own CDs any more, and a month has elapsed since I swapped out the 6 CDs currently in ym changer! Pity Mazda decided to go with Sirius, though - I personally prefer XM's selection of channels, music, DJs as well as the better sound quality.
And haven't I read that either Sirius or XM is in seriously bad financial shape? Maybe there will be only ONE provider by the time the 6 station wagon hits the showroom...
FWIW, the 6 wagon (aka "estate") just went on sale in the U.K. And the article says, "a four-wheel drive version using the 2.3-litre engine will be added... in November."
The sport wagon looks *fantastic* and as I'm not a sedan guy I've been looking at the awfully-expensive A4 or the Passat (but would have to put real suspension and wheel/tire package on it to get it to handle right). Both of those run at or above $31k the way I want them set up. Mazda will beat the price and I think looks better than both.
That said, my first car was a 1985 626 Hatch 2.0. The car lasted through high-school and college before I sold it with 190k miles on the clock (some plasticky broken bits on the interior and lots of rattles but otherwise sound - and I drove that thing HARD). I LOVE the new hatch. LOVE IT. It looks incredible and the utility of a hatch is almost on par w/ a wagon and definately better than the sedan (if rear seats fold forward).
Has anyone heard definitive news on the hatch arriving stateside?
I can wait. But boy oh boy it's gonna be a looong wait. The upshot is this: maybe the initial bugs will get worked out of it. And if the hatch is a "specialty - or lower-volume - vehicle for the USA", maybe Mazda will send ones over that are built in Japan.
I can only hope. Sorry Ford - but your products have been in my family for decades and they've been mostly crap.
nothing is impossible. They said that when Ford released its Taurus/Sable redesign in the 90s with the ovoid dash, incorporating the climate controls in the same vicinity as the radio controls. Less than a year later, after-market kits were available to replace the entire piece, moving the climate controls down and making room for a standard DIN opening.
Same will be true for this one, and any other.
IMO, it is just another example of OEM ignorance and arrogance. As long as the stereo is well thought out and sounds good, it doesn't much matter to 95% of the buying public...but for the tweekers, bass heads, and audiophiles out there. A good car system doesn't start with OEM.
Aftermarket will always find a work around, or else they risk being out of business.
I've recently become a homeowner and I'm getting a little tired of throwing all of my Lowes and Home Depot purchases in the trunk - or worse - on top of the leather seats of my 2001 Accord Coupe. I need a utility-themed vehicle but I can't stand trucks! I've eyed the Protege5, but it's just too small and underpowered. Affordable, yes, but I'm afraid I'd outgrow it quickly. And it's a Protege...a bit of a step down from an Accord.
The Mazda 6 Wagon looks rather appealing: an affordable midsize wagon that doesn't look like a family car. And if the talk about its handling prowess is true, wow, we've got a winner. Why oh why must it be built at the Ford plant in Flat Rock, MI, though? I hate Fords. I had a Contour and it was a REAL POS. It wasn't built in Flat Rock but the platform-sharing Cougar was and that car has a shaky history like the Contour. Aye. It shouldn't matter that Ford owns part of Mazda. The Mazda 6 should be built at a Mazda plant (US or Japan...doesn't matter) using non-UAW labor, like Honda and Toyota.
I chided Honda for not releasing a V6 5spd Accord but frankly, I'm not so sure I'd get a V6 5spd Mazda 6. While my 148hp 5spd Accord could use a little more pep, I like getting 26mpg around town and remember my Contour V6 5spd days when 19mpg was the usual. A V6 adds weight to the front-end, too, whereas a lighter 4-banger is more tossable. Hmmm, but I'd be giving up manual control of 200+ lb-ft of torque. Oh, the torment!
Yes, I know what you mean. I flip-flop between thinking I'll get the 61 or the 6s. I guess we'll just have to drive them both before deciding. Incidently, I checked out the 03 Accord yesterday. All they had was a LX 4-cyl with auto, complete with rear drum brakes and plastic hubcaps on steel wheels, yuck. The salesguy was surprized when he asked if I wanted to drive it and I said no.
Of course, gearing and wheel size play into it too.
All-in-all, I think 5-6 lb-ft of torque/100lbs of mass is sufficient. I think the 165 lb-ft of torque of the I4 (in a 3000lb vehicle) should be alright by the Mazda6.
This of course means that my Pro is a little underpowered, which I think it is at 107 lb-ft of torque for its 2500lbs of mass. I think the 135 lb-ft of torque supplied by its current 2.0 is fine. Imagine how it'd do with the 2.3 I4 of the 6i?
I think it also has to do with the "usable" torque and power. Take the BMW 325 for example, with it's 2.5L engine (184HP, 175fp torque) in a 3200lb car. I drove one of these a while ago, and it seemed to have plenty of power, even compared to 330 that I also drove that day. Torque/100lbs: Mazda 6i 155/3243 = 4.8/100lbs Mazda 6s 192/3311 = 5.8/100lbs BMW 325i 175/3219 = 5.4/100lbs BMW 330i 214/3285 = 6.5/100lbs Note the the Mazda 6s is only 92lbs heavier than the 325 and 26lbs more than the 330i. Actually, I think a 3.0L engine is just about right for a car of this size and weight. If you've driven the Duratec 2.5L (found in the Contour SVT) or 3.0L engines, you know that they both have a very nice usable power band. I'll probably opt for the 3.0L, even though I know that this means I'll have to order one to get it with the manual trans.
The Mazda 6 is almost enough to make me want to postpone my car-buying until next summer. Really sharp-looking ... I agree, you can definitely see it took some styling cues from the Passat. And if the pricing comes in $2-3K, or more, under comparable Passats ... wow!
One worry about the 6 wagon, though, based on the pix, might be rear visibility. The side sheetmetal rises fairly steeply toward the back, which looks sporty but makes the rear windows somewhat small, especially compared with the Passat's. You can't really tell in the pic at the top of this thread because of the angle, but it's very evident in the pics on that Spanish Web site someone linked to above.
Also, I see on the MazdaUSA.com Web site that the sedan is now "Coming in December" ... is the wagon still planned for summer?
It could be worse, you could be driving a SUV! I'm looking at the sedan unless I decide to wait for the 5-door, but if I was in the market for a wagon, it would be the 6 for sure!
We have a Subaru Outback wagon, which looks pretty similar to the 6 from the side in terms of sheetmetal and windows, and I don't find rear visibility to be a problem. Then again, I learned to drive on a VW bus, so I'm used to a rear window that's far away and up high. If you're used to sedans, it might take some getting used to, but as sure as you crane your neck around well when you're backing up (like you were taught to do in driver's ed), it shouldn't be a problem.
Personally, I'm waiting for the 5-door (to replace a 1990 Camry) and I hate the wait. I'm looking forward to test driving a sedan when they come out.
All the reports I've read make the hatch and wagon sound definite, coming to the US by mid-2003. No word about what engines, drivetrains, packages etc. will be offered here, or where they will be made. The Ford plant they're using for the 6 sedan is the same one that was used for the 626, which has had pretty good reliability ratings from Consumer Reports, so I'm hopeful that the 6 will be well made.
I really like the 6, and possibly plan on buying one as soon as they come out. 90% of the people on these boards like the hatch and wagon more than the sedan. Is this where the car market is headed? I mean, is this the new SUV craze? I know it's just one car, but I've noticed this on other boards too. What ever happened to the traditional 4dr performance sedan, and the 2 dr 4 seater sports car? Now, before you go and label me a grey-hair, lemme tell you I am 20 yrs old. I have a taurus and a mustang. I myself much prefer the lines of the sedan to the hatch, and wont even consider the wagon (nor will i ever). I will say as far as wagon's go it's one of the nicest, but it's still a wagon. I will take a yellow sport V6 with all available options, except the ATX. I'll add an aftermarket LSD when it becomes available and wait for Mazdaspeed to make the turbo for it.
Actually jtkz13, carmakers have avoided hatches and wagons like the plague for the last decade or so in the US. In my youth (I am 46), I owned two hatches, and adored them both for their utility, even if they WERE an AMC Gremlin and a Pontiac T-1000 (Chevette clone). My parents owned a wagon, and we loved it. To some extent, this manufacturer aversion may have been in response to boomers resenting the wagons their parents had (the mini-van of that day) and the CHEAP econohatches we boomers had as kids.
Note that Mazda has tried to make the hatch look exactly like the sedan. I want a hatch, and I wish I didn't have to wait a year to get it.
Then again, except for a Ford Focus or VW Golf, what other hatch is still out there? And I need more than a subcompact.
Virtually everybody that makes cars offers a sedan. Hatches and wagons are few and far between. For about the past 20 years, the largest US made wagaon has been the Taurus/Sable! And hatches nearly completely disappeared.
That's the reason why so many of us are so excited to see Mazda doing good stuff, like the Protege5 and the Mazda6 wagons and hatches.
variety is a good thing. I just found it kind of odd that the majority of people on here were awaiting the wagon or hatchback. To me the hatch looks a little bubbly in the back, but it still looks dang nice. It's fine by me, everybody buy 6 wagons and hatch's. At least my car won't become so common as my 2000 taurus. :-D
I dont want to get into the whole suv thing, when it comes to practicality nothing can beat a sport wagon, has all the characters of a car ie gas mileage, handling, performance and the practicality of a suv ie lot's of cargo space!!!
Why in the hell would ANYONE ever buy an suv, it's absolutely sick how much gas they guzzle, on top of that you are totally unconnected from the road, and let's not forget how easy it is to flip those sucker's going into a turn!!!
Seem's the rest of the world doesn't like them except our North American market, and as long as we do, car maker's will keep giving us crummy models to choose from when you compare to what is offered overseas!!!
There i feel alot better know, i too cannot wait for an affordable sporty roomy wagon to come out, and it look's like mazda has hit the nail on the head with this one!!!!
are more of a status symbol than anything else nowadays. How often do you think betty takes her expedition any more off road than accidently driving on the grass when she backing up out of the driveway. Most are pig heavy, poor handling, and ugly. With that said I like some of the smaller type suv's. Escape, Tribute, Freelander, and even the new blazer/bravada's are pretty nice.
Ever owned a boat, toy hauler, race vehicle, etc.?
Just because it's not for you, doesn't mean that it's not the ideal choice for another. True, many are grocery haulers, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I would like to see the numbers when it comes to towing capacity, i cant see a suv being that much better than let's say subaru, saab, volvo or even for that matter a vw/audi wagon!!!! And let's face it, how many people tow something that heavy on a regular basis???!!! I think a truck would be better suited or maybe a minivan!!!!! Anyways let's get back to the great mazda 6, we all know that suv's are for chumps ahhhh i mean champs!!!! Just joking!!!!
Most large SUVs (e.g., Expedition, Tahoe, Sequoia) are rated in the 6500-8500 lb range, most mid-size SUVs (e.g., Explorers) are around 5K, with the smaller SUVs generally being 2000-3500. Most small and mid-size wagons specifically do not recommend ANY towing and the few that do allow it are generally limited to 1000-1500 lbs.
Bash SUVs all you want, but they tow well and most have a off-road capability that many of us occasinally use. No we don't use it every day. Maybe we'll only use it a few times in the life of the vehicle, but those few times are critical. And many SUV owners tow a fair amount: boats, dirt bikes, travel trailers, utility trailers, what-have-you.
I'm in the market for a small wagon for our family's 2nd car, but my ML320 with 5K towing capacity is incredibly versatile and it does stuff every week that would be impossible in a small wagon or even a CR-V type vehicle.
Comments
This is my current situation, not that I have the funds to do anything to remedy it anyway.
If I had been able to buy last year, I would be driving a RSX type S. In the meantime of waiting, the Altima entered my radar screen, followed by the Matrix and most recently the WRX wagon. Now this Mazda 6 wagon is in the competition as well.
Having lived in europe for more than half of my driving career, my tastes are heavily influenced by the market there. I would love to have an Alfa Romeo 156 sportwagon, Audi A4 avant, Volvo v40 with a real transmission, even a Fiat Marea wagon would suit me. Passat is nice but like others here I don't trust it's reliability. We used to joke that his Passat was really a "passiert" (happened) as in "was ist dem Passat jetzt passiert?" (what happened to the Passat now?)
I just hope that Mazda doesn't goof the wagon when they do bring it by making the manny tranny a factory order item. I don't want to order a car. I want to buy a car and drive away the same day.
When I was out drooling over the Altima SEs, there was only one dealer (out of three) that had one (just one) with a manual transmission. Slushboxes everywhere.
Good to hear some German here - been a while since I had a chance to practice my high school German speaking skills, but should that sentence be "Was ist MIT dem passat jetzt passiert?"? He He - I imagine colloquially you can just leave out the 'mit'.
Mazda has made it clear they will make Auto and 5 speed available across the board (sedan, wagon and hatchback) - but you're right, given the average American's morbid fear of (or dislike of - given how many 'more important things' they'd rather be doing in a car) manual trannys, Mazda may option it differently when it gets here. Hopefully not, though!
Good to hear about the availability of the manual transmission. Won't consider a car without one.
Hadn't been keeping up on the Euro scene as much lately since I just get irritated that I can't have those cars. A few years back I was seriously looking at trying to bring over an Alfa GTV (gee tee vew -not gee tee vee - mmkay?) and dealing with the lack of parts and the conversion stuff.
Heard Alfa was gonna reenter the US market in 04, but I am not holding my breath.
The Mazda6 should make a very nice ersatz euromobile for me.
And I've heard that each separate body style/engine/tranny option requires a separate certification for emissions, fuel, and safety standards and it runs over $100K per. So I'm skeptical that Mazda will certify all the combos of three body styles X two engines X two trannys - 12 combos in all. This many options also makes it harder for dealers to keep inventory. My guess: no 4-cyl in the wagon or 5-door, no manual for the wagon. I hope I'm wrong.
- Mark
- Mark
This is done specifically so that different body styles do not have to be retested, but some manufactures use it as a loophole, and use the same numbers for different nameplates. Examples: BMW 530i and 330ci convertable are both 24.3396 for their combined average - coincidence? Subaru Legacy, Impreza and Forestor are all 27.2821; Buick Le Sabre, Park Avenue, and Pontiac Bonneville are all 26.7043.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/download.shtml
Go to the above site and download the 2002 datafile to see which cars use the same numbers! Sort by overall mileage to see which numbers are the same.
Crash testing may be different.
But I don't have hard information - just what some so-called experts have said on the internet, that any substantial change if body/engine/tranny requires a separate test. And I know the mfgs have steadfastly said that a big reason they don't bring in manual transmissions in very many models is because of the extra cost of testing.
Again, I hope I'm wrong. Personally, I want the V6, but I can certainly understand the appeal of the four to many. And if the car doesn't have the manual, I won't even consider it. I've told Mazda this from their web site.
- Mark
Certifying an 2003 Accord V6 sedan with a 5-sp manual is different from certifying a Mazda6 Wagon or 5-door 4-cyl when the 4-door has already been certified.
"Just because two cars have the same numbers isn't much of an indication that they used the same EPA testing. The numbers are so coarse, if you have hundreds of cars being tested all with city mileage between 16 and 23, then there are going to be a lot of coincidental matches for both numbers."
What? Read dudleyr's post again. We're talking about the same EPA number for two different models down to four decimal places. This is definitely not "coarse".
This is the Alfa Romeo Sportwagen GTA, I can see some resemblence in the Mazda6 front.
I am not a statistician, but I would venture to say that the odds of the exact same car getting the same results twice are very very small. The chances of three different cars (that are different sizes) getting the same number to 4 decimal places on two different tests would have to be very much less likely than winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning the same day.
If I can find it again, I will post a link to the EPA testing procedures.
But by the same token, looking at the BMW 3- and 5-series sedans, I see 2 replications of numbers over 16 different models, meaning that it appears that to certify the 16 3- and 5-series sedam models, it took 14 tests.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't know precisely how they slice and dice car models for these tests, but I'll stand on the jist of my original statement: it is unlikely we'll get all all 12 combos of possible Mazda 6's and certification and testing costs will be one reason why.
- Mark
I came accross this when I was comparing the 325it (wagon) to the 325i (sedan). I wondered why the EPA numbers were different, and looked up the tranny data. The 325it has a 3.46 final drive (and turns 2805 rpm @ 60 mph) while the 325i has a 3.15 final drive (and turns 2554 rpm @ 60 mph), so the wagon has a lower EPA highway number(as it was tested seperatly because of different transmission), and for good reason since the engine is turning faster.
The EPA "loophole" only works if the engine and transmission (including final drive ratio) are identical.
Also remember that Mazdas parent company (Ford) has already learned the lesson of not having a 5-speed on the Focus wagon. This vehicle had no 5-speed its first year, and after many complaints (on this very board even) they offered a 5-speed as a no cost option the next year - still more complaints, so now it is a $715 (if memory serves) deduct. If the Focus were as reliable as a Mazda I would probably be very serious about getting one.
Back to the original subject. If Mazda does not change the tranny from car to car (and I doubt they would since they all have the same mission of being drivers cars) they will only need 4 tests for all 12 versions of the cars.
V6 auto and manual, and 4 cyl auto and manual.
(Raw highway mpg X 0.78??) (round to whole number)= Official EPA Highway Rating
Some raw data are suspiciously only rounded to one decimal place.
Example:
2002 VW Jetta Sedan 1.9L TDI with 5-sp:
46.5427/62.7912 (42/49)
2002 VW Jetta Wagon 1.9L TDI with 5-sp:
46.7/64 (42/50)
I doubt they have different manual transmissions and/or final drive ratios.
I heard someone mentioned the Wagon had better aerodynamics. Fine, but then:
2002 VW Jetta Sedan 2.0L with 4-sp auto:
25.1767/37.2911 (23/29)
2002 VW Jetta Wagon 2.0L with 4-sp auto:
24.8059/36.9041 (22/29)
Now the sedan has better gas mileage ratings.
here is a link to the testing procedures I mentioned in a previous post.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/factshts/fefact01.pdf
So I don't get in trouble for being off topic, I will add that I really do think that Mazda will bring the wagon over (with manual tranny). It would help to further differentiate it from Honda and Toyota, both of whom do not have a single wagon (I know the Matrix is wagon-like, but a real wagon is not 7 inches shorter than the sedan).
Through a reference in another board (regarding a GM vehicle), I've examined a Spanish web site which turns out to have the best (and particularly HIGHEST RESOLUTION) images of the 6 that I've been able to find on the net. Most are 1024x768 (approx.).
In addition to seeing some familiar photos (but at higher resolution, which is great for examining details of the dashboard, for example), there are also some shots I'd never seen elsewhere (like a cutaway side shot of the wagon interior).
SO, exterior photos (clickable to enlarge) are at:
http://www.km77.com/marcas/mazda/6_02/galeria.asp
AND interior photos (ditto) are at:
http://www.km77.com/marcas/mazda/6_02/galeria2.asp
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Read other websites and reviews of XM/Sirius. Listen to them online.
They don't repeat songs, play great music, have less/no ads, sound way better than FM, cost almost nothing - what's not to like?
I've had XM in my Protege for 3+ months now, and certainly won't live without it in any future car I own! I rarely ever switch to my own CDs any more, and a month has elapsed since I swapped out the 6 CDs currently in ym changer! Pity Mazda decided to go with Sirius, though - I personally prefer XM's selection of channels, music, DJs as well as the better sound quality.
http://money.cnn.com/2002/08/19/technology/techinvestor/hellweg/index.htm
http://www.topgear.beeb.com/content/latest/news/articles/2002/09/03/index.html
That said, my first car was a 1985 626 Hatch 2.0. The car lasted through high-school and college before I sold it with 190k miles on the clock (some plasticky broken bits on the interior and lots of rattles but otherwise sound - and I drove that thing HARD). I LOVE the new hatch. LOVE IT. It looks incredible and the utility of a hatch is almost on par w/ a wagon and definately better than the sedan (if rear seats fold forward).
Has anyone heard definitive news on the hatch arriving stateside?
I can wait. But boy oh boy it's gonna be a looong wait. The upshot is this: maybe the initial bugs will get worked out of it. And if the hatch is a "specialty - or lower-volume - vehicle for the USA", maybe Mazda will send ones over that are built in Japan.
I can only hope. Sorry Ford - but your products have been in my family for decades and they've been mostly crap.
Maka
Same will be true for this one, and any other.
IMO, it is just another example of OEM ignorance and arrogance. As long as the stereo is well thought out and sounds good, it doesn't much matter to 95% of the buying public...but for the tweekers, bass heads, and audiophiles out there. A good car system doesn't start with OEM.
Aftermarket will always find a work around, or else they risk being out of business.
my two cents.
I've recently become a homeowner and I'm getting a little tired of throwing all of my Lowes and Home Depot purchases in the trunk - or worse - on top of the leather seats of my 2001 Accord Coupe. I need a utility-themed vehicle but I can't stand trucks! I've eyed the Protege5, but it's just too small and underpowered. Affordable, yes, but I'm afraid I'd outgrow it quickly. And it's a Protege...a bit of a step down from an Accord.
The Mazda 6 Wagon looks rather appealing: an affordable midsize wagon that doesn't look like a family car. And if the talk about its handling prowess is true, wow, we've got a winner. Why oh why must it be built at the Ford plant in Flat Rock, MI, though? I hate Fords. I had a Contour and it was a REAL POS. It wasn't built in Flat Rock but the platform-sharing Cougar was and that car has a shaky history like the Contour. Aye. It shouldn't matter that Ford owns part of Mazda. The Mazda 6 should be built at a Mazda plant (US or Japan...doesn't matter) using non-UAW labor, like Honda and Toyota.
I chided Honda for not releasing a V6 5spd Accord but frankly, I'm not so sure I'd get a V6 5spd Mazda 6. While my 148hp 5spd Accord could use a little more pep, I like getting 26mpg around town and remember my Contour V6 5spd days when 19mpg was the usual. A V6 adds weight to the front-end, too, whereas a lighter 4-banger is more tossable. Hmmm, but I'd be giving up manual control of 200+ lb-ft of torque. Oh, the torment!
All-in-all, I think 5-6 lb-ft of torque/100lbs of mass is sufficient. I think the 165 lb-ft of torque of the I4 (in a 3000lb vehicle) should be alright by the Mazda6.
This of course means that my Pro is a little underpowered, which I think it is at 107 lb-ft of torque for its 2500lbs of mass. I think the 135 lb-ft of torque supplied by its current 2.0 is fine. Imagine how it'd do with the 2.3 I4 of the 6i?
Torque/100lbs:
Mazda 6i 155/3243 = 4.8/100lbs
Mazda 6s 192/3311 = 5.8/100lbs
BMW 325i 175/3219 = 5.4/100lbs
BMW 330i 214/3285 = 6.5/100lbs
Note the the Mazda 6s is only 92lbs heavier than the 325 and 26lbs more than the 330i. Actually, I think a 3.0L engine is just about right for a car of this size and weight. If you've driven the Duratec 2.5L (found in the Contour SVT) or 3.0L engines, you know that they both have a very nice usable power band. I'll probably opt for the 3.0L, even though I know that this means I'll have to order one to get it with the manual trans.
One worry about the 6 wagon, though, based on the pix, might be rear visibility. The side sheetmetal rises fairly steeply toward the back, which looks sporty but makes the rear windows somewhat small, especially compared with the Passat's. You can't really tell in the pic at the top of this thread because of the angle, but it's very evident in the pics on that Spanish Web site someone linked to above.
Also, I see on the MazdaUSA.com Web site that the sedan is now "Coming in December" ... is the wagon still planned for summer?
Personally, I'm waiting for the 5-door (to replace a 1990 Camry) and I hate the wait. I'm looking forward to test driving a sedan when they come out.
I just cannot wait 'til June '03 for Mazda6 Wagon to be available!
Note that Mazda has tried to make the hatch look exactly like the sedan. I want a hatch, and I wish I didn't have to wait a year to get it.
Then again, except for a Ford Focus or VW Golf, what other hatch is still out there? And I need more than a subcompact.
Virtually everybody that makes cars offers a sedan. Hatches and wagons are few and far between. For about the past 20 years, the largest US made wagaon has been the Taurus/Sable! And hatches nearly completely disappeared.
That's the reason why so many of us are so excited to see Mazda doing good stuff, like the Protege5 and the Mazda6 wagons and hatches.
Bring 'em on! Best of all, bring us CHOICES!
Why in the hell would ANYONE ever buy an suv, it's absolutely sick how much gas they guzzle, on top of that you are totally unconnected from the road, and let's not forget how easy it is to flip those sucker's going into a turn!!!
Seem's the rest of the world doesn't like them except our North American market, and as long as we do, car maker's will keep giving us crummy models to choose from when you compare to what is offered overseas!!!
There i feel alot better know, i too cannot wait for an affordable sporty roomy wagon to come out, and it look's like mazda has hit the nail on the head with this one!!!!
Ever owned a boat, toy hauler, race vehicle, etc.?
Just because it's not for you, doesn't mean that it's not the ideal choice for another. True, many are grocery haulers, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Bash SUVs all you want, but they tow well and most have a off-road capability that many of us occasinally use. No we don't use it every day. Maybe we'll only use it a few times in the life of the vehicle, but those few times are critical. And many SUV owners tow a fair amount: boats, dirt bikes, travel trailers, utility trailers, what-have-you.
I'm in the market for a small wagon for our family's 2nd car, but my ML320 with 5K towing capacity is incredibly versatile and it does stuff every week that would be impossible in a small wagon or even a CR-V type vehicle.
- Mark