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Mazda has a better product line-up now than they have had for many years - not since the halcyon days of the early 90's. I still believe that the "poor" Mazda6 launch is much more about overly optimistic sales expectations for the car in NA, as well as dreadful advertising - "Come buy a real sporty 4-door sedan you 19 people in NA who want such a thing". This car should have been marketed as a more attractive, more sophisticated alternative in the mid-size segment. People don't know what a Mazda6 is and they don't know what segment its in. They don't know what they should be cross-shopping it against.
The HP issues with the RX-8 is a disappointing repeat of Miatagate, but it will fade from the general public's mind very quickly - if it ever registered with them at all.
With a very good entry level car - the Mazda3; a competitive car in the mid-size segment - the Mazda6; a worthy vehicle in the MPV; the world's best affordable sports car - the Miata; and a segment buster like the RX-8 Mazda should be able to do well if they can market themselves and their vehicles effectively. That remains to be seen.
Must say that I was very impressed, but the engine is a too quiet. It was difficult to know when to shift. I felt like I was always shifting too quickly, but that's probably because I'm not used to high rev engines. Other than that, I'm ready to buy one. I want to test drive the G35 one more time though.
I thought the blue looked nice and isn't that common, but my gf said blue on a car is unacceptable! Also read a previous post from someone who slammed blue. Hmm, don't we have enough red, black and silver cars on the road already?
Anyway, the two dealers I visited had several in stock, one with seven or eight, and claimed several more that were unprepped in the back, another with five in different colors and not all were loaded up. Not a single AT, all were manual. Saw a red that was almost a base model for around 27k, others with just GT package and a few small add ons such as splash guards. I didn't get the sense the dealers were trying to gouge anyone. They did say that they would only sell at MSRP, though. I'm in the Los Angeles area. Not sure why LA dealers has so many in stock when I hear others have to wait 3 weeks or more for pre-oreders.
Thanks for all the great posts, everyone. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.
Starbuck, I think the RX-8 looks great in blue. "Unacceptable", since when? If you like the performance, I'd go for it.
I commute 100 miles a day to work and back most of it freeway driving. But, I'm only getting about 18 MPG. Now, I do drive fast and like to push it when in the city but I expected better mileage because of all the freeway driving.
So, I'm not too happy with having to fill up every 2.5 days at $30 a pop. Is this consistent with what others are getting?
I have averaged 22.3 mpg over 13,700 miles with my S2000, heavily weighted to 10+/- mile enthusiatic hops. Individual fill ups have ranged from a low of 19 mpg to 32 mpg for a 280 mile highway leg with the cruise control set at 76 mph. I have heard very bad mileage reports on the old RX7. At the time I had a 1997 Supra Turbo, a friend an RX7. I averaged 23 mpg, he only averaged 17. His dealer responded that "nobody gets the EPA rating with the RX7".
Perhaps there is something inherently inefficient with respect to rotary designs.
Is burning oil between changes not a problem with the new Renesis. Anyone have any experience with this?
Is it as easy as on more mundane cars?...no. You just have to reach a bit further and "snake it out" from a couple of wires.
Mazda claims that oil usage in the Renesis is 1 qt for every 100,000 miles in some of their development material. That said, the owners manual says that it's not unusual for the RENESIS to use oil and to check it every fuel stop.
I check mine every couple of fuel stops. I'm just under 1,000 miles on the ODO, but no oil usage yet.
Also, I have my "HP" letter from Mazda ... and I am considering returning it.
I am averaging close to 18 to 20 mpg (no better than 20) I commute @ 35 miles one way (most highway). I am refueling every three days.
The lack of torque in 1st and 2nd gear becomes a bit of a burden at "highway" stop lights where other cars are getting a stronger and smoother jump start.
Finally, I live in North East and while looking at other cars (the 350Z) those Nav systems worked fine and I took to RX-8's Nav system for granted and did not "test" it prior to ordering it as an option... the Mazda Navigation system does not have North East addresses programmed in it so you can get directions... NOT EVEN THE ADDRESS TO THE DEALERSHIP I BOUGHT IT FROM ! Great toy and the GPS positioning is cool as you drive - but unless you "mark" your destination on the map in advance you are not getting directions - having to "mark" your destination on the map, when you don't know where it is in the first place, is RIDICULOUS... Test the Nav system for "local information" before opting to buy it.
The feel of the car is awesome, excellent road handling, great stereo, four seater (just enough for the two young kids), and strangers on the street are stopping to admire ... however, it is not long until day to day performance becomes an issue and then the recent news of the HP seems to fit. However, the good outweighs the not so good (some day they will update the Nav software/DVD) and I am still undecided about whether or not I will keep the car?
Anyone else seriously considering returning it?
I looked at a ton of cars when shopping, those extensively test driven were the 350Z/G35, Thunderbird, 330ci, MB C-Class coupe, Z4, WRX, EVO, Cobra and others.
It took a month to drive all of them and make a decision, which was overwhelmingly for the RX8.
Then, like you, I got THE LETTER.
I thought about it and drove the 350/G35 again since they were my 2nd choice. Again, I was always glad to get back into the RX8 afterwards. Long and short of it, I've yet to find a car with all the positive attributes of the RX8 vs anything else I've driven for the price.
My mileage, while still not great, is starting to creep up. And the power seems to be getting better, too (not that it was anyting but fast to begin with).
In order to get SIGNIFICANTLY more performance, I'd either have to spend a lot more money (like about $10K more for a Corvette) or give up the precision, handling, build quality and/or style (and look hideous in an EVO or WRX) that the RX8 possesses.
The only other car I would probably consider would be the '05 Mustang, but that's several months away and there are still too many unknowns about it.
I've checked some reliable sources, and what few used RX8s that are on the market, they are still being sold pretty near MSRP, (why do that when you can buy a new one?), even after the restatement of the HP.
So, the RX8 is a great car and a good deal less expensive than it's competition (you'll spend $3K-$4K more for a 350Z/G35 similarly equiped). Plus, Mazda is giving us $500 and free maintenance for what amounts to a clerical error. That's pretty strong from where I sit.
Dealer said he'd even replace the tires, which will most certainly be shot before the 4/50 Mazda warranty runs out.
Once supply catches up to demand for any car, MSRP will be tough to get.
1) Don't pay MSRP or even slightly less when a new model comes out. If everyone held out it would be much better pricing for all.
2) I know it can be exciting when a favorite returns. But you really have to question whether the value is in the RX-8 compared to a 350Z. I don't particularly like the looks of the Nissan, but it is a reasonable price and has more power.
3) I don't care how advanced or hi-tech an engine design is, if it doesn't deliver. Mazda should be embarassed to put out an engine with little torque off the line, gets moderate hp (why Accords get 240hp), and gets 18 - 20 mpg hwy as someone here mentioned. My low-tech '01 Firebird LS-1 w/auto gets 25mpg combined and 28 mpg on hwy. while delivering hp and torque. I'm not trying to trash the RX-8 but you should be able to get either power or economy from that engine.
as for value-for-the-dollar factor, the Z is a great value now because dealers have begun aggressive discounting off MSRP. RX-8 STICKERS at 27k to start with, give it a few more months and it will be a BARGAIN priced performance car.
Don't forget that others like an agile car more than a powerful car...
Dinu
If you are going to buy either car for track racing only, then there might be a case to buy the 350Z over the RX8. My guess is that the vast majority of owners will not be doing much track running of our cars. Therefore, the minimal differences in 0-60 or 1/4 mile times really don't come into play.
IMHO, looking at both cars as a total package as most of us do, I would pick the RX8 over the 350Z even if they were priced the same. Given the $3K price difference equipped the way most of us would buy the cars, the decision was a "no brainer" in favor of the RX8.
You really have to drive and compare the two cars "back-to-back" to understand this.
I did so in repeated test drives. While both cars are sports car bargains, I kept coming back to the RX8 as the one that I overwhelmingly prefered over the 350Z for myriads of reasons. While this list is strictly mine, I've heard them echoed by others:
For the RX8 over the 350Z:
--$3K price difference
--better ergonomics
--higher build quality
--sunroof
--better interior
--better ride and handling characteristics
--better clutch and shifter performance
--exterior/interior styling
--gorgeous legible guages
--useable back seat
And those are just a few.
I don't see any discounting for a while....maybe when the winter months hit, but I doubt you'll find much in the way of RX8s having substantial discounts for a while given their aggressive MSRP pricing to begin with.
Personal opinion, but I haven't been able to find anything remotely offering what the RX8 offers at MSRP.
What you get is super small, super light, and super smooth engine that seems like it will rev forever. If you haven't driven a rotary engine car, you will not understand. The rotary feels like a jet engine like the LS1 feels like a dump truck motor. I have driven twin turbo RX7s and LS1 Camaros and both of them are a blast to drive in their own way. The rotary feels turbine like with almost no vibration. The way a rotary pulls is hard to explain. Not that the LS1 isn't smooth or refined, it's just that it feels and sounds brutal and starts to crap out in an RPM range when the rotary feels like it's starting to get it's afterburners going. The LS1 is a bad-[non-permissible content removed] motor though, probably one of the most efficient high powered AND high torque engines around.
Tagged along in the left lane at about 135km/h until we hit a traffic jam and I exited.
Was a sweet-looking car!
Dinu
EXACTLY!!!!!
Couldn't have said it any better myself. Being a fan of good ole' V8 pwwer, you've hit the the differences between big displacement V6s or V8s (like the Nissan 3.5 or small block V8s like the Mustang GT or GM LS1) and the rotary right on the head.
Truth is, if you want a torque monster, forget the Nissan 3.5 V6 and get some V8 muscle. You'll get more of what you want regarding torque with the American V8s. If you want hi rev power, go to the S2000 or the RX8.
Going with the Nissan 3.5 V6 in any of its fine iterations won't do what a V8 will do, but still have the "low tech" feel to it. Go all the way and get a Mustang Cobra (about the same price as a "Z") or a Corvette if that's what you're looking for.
I ordered my Enthusiast 6MT 350Z for $28,130, last time I checked the Mustang Cobra was going for $35,000. I dont think the Cobras are going to be that low in price, because Ford does not make a "stripper" Cobra. People who dont care about leather or a sunroof, but want a reasonably fast/good handling sports car would consider a 350Z a good choice. The better value would be the Mustang GT, having similar performance with the Z and a lower price tag.
However, to those belittling the RX-8's torque, what do you expect from a 1.3L engine? I think 159 lb/ft of torque is par for the course for such a low-displacement engine. I am amazed at what this wonderful rotary powerplant can do. There is not a single 1.3L piston engine that can make 238HP. And while the Accord does have better HP and MPG, it is a front-heavy car that will never handle as good as the RX-8 with its perfect 50/50 weight distribution. There is some trade-offs, but I dont think Mazda has to be ashamed of anything.
Despite me being a 350Z owner, I have respect for the RX-8. Just that in this point in time I dont need a sports car with a rear seat, and I am more comfortable with Nissan's proven V6 as opposed to the newly designed Renesis. I like the 350Z, and I like the RX-8. I dont feel the need to bash the RX-8 to justify my 350Z purchase.
The 350Z has been called a "pig", not a true sports car because it weighs 3200 pounds, a disgrace to the Z name because it does not look like other Z's, yadda yadda yadda the lists goes on and on and on. You RX-8 guys are going to have deal with your own list as well.
I have realized that whatever car I buy, its gonna be a "Piece-Of-Junk" to someone else. Whether its gonna be the "Altima-Engine" 350Z, or the "torque-less" RX-8, there is gonna be someone out there that is gonna think I made a bad mistake. That being the case, I have come to the conclusion that I should not be worried about what others may say, as long as I am happy with my purchase.
I just don't get why Mazda would bring what they want to be is their flagship performance car to market with what is "somewhat adequate" power. Is Mazda missing that there is a HP War going on here in America? Why wouldn't they have made the rotary engine 33% larger displacement? It might have added 100Lb by the time you redesigned the trans. That would have been an alternative to expensive turbos. I would think Mazda would want their flagship to run close to the Cobra and base Vette.
As it is they are now committed to this design for a few years while competitors will be coming out with new models - for example the '05 Mustang and the C6.
Oh by the way, I see '03 Cobras now are being offered with a $2500 rebate or low financing. So press those Mazda dealers for a discount!
I think the next round of Japanese sports cars will be the ones to compare to the Cobra/Vette. For Nissan/Infiniti, that would be the GT-R. For Mazda, that would be the RX-7.
The RX-8 is Mazda's "mainstream" sports car. It should be compared to the Mustang GT, not the Cobra.
That being said I'm surprised that there are already 8's hanging around the lot. You'd think they'd still be filling pre-orders. It took months before you could just walk up and buy a G35 or 350Z. How many are they targeting to sell?
Matter of fact, the Cobra was in my top 5 when looking for cars. The performance it offers for the price currently is pretty astounding (hard to break $30K all loaded up). Even a Mustand GT convertible was up there on my shopping list. Just amazing what those can be bought for today.
Funny thing, I agreed almost entirely with what C&D said about the Cobra, G35 (applies to the 350Z, too) and the RX8. That's a rarity for me.
About dealer stock....I just don't see any. I think what most are seeing are some dealers with stock that is either already spoken for, waiting to be delivered or people that, for one reason or the other, had to back out of their deal for the RX8. That's how I came across mine. I had a mica Red pre-ordered, but was able to buy the "winning blue" (which I much prefered over the red) after the original buyer counldn't get financed. Happened to be at the right place at the right time. There are 4 dealers in my area and none of them have stock....just delivering pre-orders. If one becomes available (like mine), it's gone in a day.
I don't expect that to continue, though. As the Z and G35 have been out for a bit, I see quite a few of those on the dealers' lots and discounts of about $1K off MSRP (now that my local Infiniti/Nissan dealers know that I have the option of giving my RX8 back, they are more than willing to "make a deal" on one of their sleds). Same will happen eventually with the RX8....maybe when the '05s come out.
The more I drive mine and the more I find out about the car, the more I like it. I have a lot of respect for the 350Z. I just much prefer the total package and driving experience of the RX8.
Someone else called the RX8 experience "cult like". That's probably not too far from the truth.
I think Mazda is doing the right thing with the RX-8. Mazda has always been about light, tossable power. The RX-8 continues the tradition masterfully. Adding 100 pounds to a car that is all about being light changes its character dramatically.
The Vette is the fire breathing 800 pound gorilla in the perfomance roadster market and has been for many of its 50 years on the market. No one is going to compete with it. Better to have Mazda do its own thing well than to fail at doing someone else's thing.
About Mazda following the competition Mazda should not want to beat the Vette. The last time Mazda followed the competition was when they tried to be Toyota in 1995 by making bland cars. Its better if Mazda is Mazda and doesn't do anything drastic just because some other car company is doing something else.
logic1, carguy58: I agree with you guys, Mazda should stick to what they do best, which is making great looking/great handling cars. Take for instance the Mazda 6, which has lower HP than than Altima or Accord, but out-handles those two competitors. And while subjective, the Mazda 6 to me looks better than the Altima or Accord. In my opinion the 1995 RX-7 beats the 300ZX and Supra in the looks department, and looks great even to this day.
Logic...the Corvette, indeed, is the 800 pound gorilla. It makes no pretense about what it is about. It's the truly American way of beating the pavement it drives on into submission. I used to like that feel. Then I started messing around with lighter, hi rev machines and it became clear which I preferred.
Mr. Shiftright....I've tried to put into words the driving experience between American bred sports cars like the Mustang GT/Cobra and the Corvette vs something like the RX8. And they are so different, it would take up way too much space.
Not a bad thing, but the 350Z has become more "Americanized" in its feel. Having owned a 260Z in the past (not the best example of a "Z"), it used to exude what the RX8 does so well now...smooth, turbine'like engine, light, precise shifter and clutch, gobs of "stick", precise steering that feels "spot-on" (another marvel since the steering is now electircally controlled as opposed to hydraulic)...high content, high build quality exterior/interior....great ergonomics...and finally, a great(BOSE, if you can believe it) stereo.
See, I can't put it into words effectively.
No arguing with the Corvette/Viper/Cobra, these cars represent the pinacle of brute force/raw power that is not going cost you a house payment like the European counterparts. It would be silly for me to compare the 350Z to these sports cars, they are in a whole different performance class.
One thing the RX-8 does definitely beat the 350Z is in the sound system. I have heard only postive reviews of the RX-8 BOSE system while the BOSE system in the Z, even with the so called "improvements" made in the 2004 model, still sounds bad from the reviews I have read.
Northeast region is the strongest region for RX-8 sales. This is also mazda strongest region overall, so that wasnt a surprise.
RX-8 national television advertising started last night and will be strong thru the end of the month.
In traffic, well, most cars feel the same unless you have a bear clutch.
Mr Shiftright....not often, but sometimes, I feel like just annihalating the road. Those Cobras and Corvettes do that so well. But you have to "manhandle" them to do what you want. Defintely, they are a very heavy drive. Everthing feels like it has to be "forced" to make them work right....the clutch, the shifter, the steering. Plus, you don't know where you're going to end up after a little "shoving" the cars to bend to your will.
Just using the RX8 as an example, it is way more instinctive and willing to "play" when the mood strikes....no forcing, no shoving is needed....kind of like the quick, agile, light on his feet kid on the playground getting the best of the "big, bad bully" during a fight.
me: Well the Viper is brute force, and the Vette and Cobra are only civilized, IMHO. I think everyone who appreciates performance cars, appreciates them for their power and speed. Some people argue performance is mainly about handling and feel; others about acceleration and top-speed. Of course we should want both!
And European performance cars are not just about light weight, good handling vehicles. The ones I can think of (not exotics) such as from Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, and Audi are using larger, and larger displacement engines and going for high power. They are all 3200lb+. Sure they are much more money than an RX-8, and unaffordable (prefer to spend on travel) to me. I was just stating prior that for a few thousand more the RX-8 could offer similar performance to some of these vehicles. Maybe the aftermarket will come out with a turbo kit?
graphicguy: I applaud you for your "preciseness" in your purchasing decision of the RX-8 . I must admit that at one point in time I was intent on buying the RX-8 over the 350Z and was so close to purchasing one, but I have never purchased a car as expensive as the 350Z/RX-8 and I "chickened" out because I am more comfortable with Nissan, having owned a 1991 Nissan Sentra that is still running great and still has the original timing chain. It was a hard decision for me, both cars were #1 on my list. This is the reason why you will NOT hear me bad-mouthing/bashing the RX-8, because I could have owned one.
I agree, I probably should not have lumped the Viper with the Corvette/Cobra. The Viper is definitely a brute! And yes, it would be sweet to have a 2000lb 2 seater with a 9000 rpm-redline and 500 lb/ft of torque
Yes there will probably be aftermarket guys bolting a turbo on the RX-8, like what there are doing now with the 350Z. Most likely it will happen some time next year.
If the RX-8 turns out to be a success for Mazda, there are rumors that they will bring back the RX-7. Mazda just has to prove to Ford that the rotary engine is a viable/profitable platform.
If people buy the RX-8 and it proves to be a money-maker for Mazda then the RX-7 will follow.
Imagine a bigger engine, and less weight! This is the car that the diehard rotorhead will want.
If you felt more comfortable buying a Nissan, then that should be reason enough for buying a 350Z. Again, they are great cars. I have a high amount of respect for both the car and the company. I'm not brand loyal in the least. That's come back to "bite me in the butt" on occasion since I've owned some real "stinkers" being brand loyal, but those were all GM cars.