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Comments
I guess it will continue to happen unless Honda get there production numbers up.
Sure people have walked away from Honda. They will continue to walk. But not enough to make Honda dealers regret it. The way I see it, people are more likely to get accustomed to paying MSRP for a Honda, than Honda dealers are to drop the prices. Honda dealers may end up like Saturn with a "MSRP is the price" sales pitch.
The CR-V, Odyssey, MDX and S2000, on the other hand, don't really have that many competitors (especially the S2000). It also helps that they're practically the best choices in their respective markets.
In addition to the dealer mark ups, the Pilot walks the fine line that separates the midsize SUV segment from the full-size SUV segment. Only the Dodge Durango can offer seating for up to 8 in the midsize category. If it's really going to cost ~25-33K, there are the Tahoes and Expeditions that become competitors in the upper price range. Below 30K and there are several other SUVs to choose from.
I've always thought that the mini-van market was one of the toughest. I believe I've read articles where it was described as, "cut-throat". While it may not have the same number of direct competitors as the Accord, there are also few buyer buyers. So the ratio of buyers to vehicle choices may be similar (haven't done the math). I think you'll find something similar with the CR-V.
I'm not sure about the MDX, though. While the ML320, X3 or X5, RX300, and others don't represent the same volume of competition, the MDX is also cross-shopped with the loaded versions of the mid-sized class (Highlander, Explorer, Envoy, and others in their leather-clad trims). That's a tougher call.
Regardless, if people were going to get miffed with Honda dealers and walk away from them because of MSRP pricing, don't you think that would've happened already? It seems to me that the public is just getting accustomed to it and accepting it as a "fact of life".
Couple of months later, a friend of mine had to wait three weeks to get his Accord V6. Honda opened up import from Japan (about 60K units then), and then, as expected, things started to settle down for this 400K per year model.
With Pilot, it would really depend on how it compares to its competition. If it is anything like MDX or Odyssey (which I'm sure it will be), with only 70-80K units to sell, atleast in the first year, there will be more buyers than vehicles, likely. If people compare and like a certain vehicle, they would probably end up paying MSRP on a vehicle, which may not be, at times, much different from couple of grands under MSRP for another vehicle.
Diploid, I just read a transcript of that report. I didn't see anything about a "3-ft recommendation".
"Here's the dangerous problem: In a rear crash, the seat back -- regardless of which row -- acts as the restraint system, just as the safety belt and air bag do in a front crash. If a seat back is so rigid that it stays upright in a violent rear-ender, the stiff seat slams its passenger forward at the moment of impact. Then the passenger snaps backward against the stiff seat as the struck vehicle halts. Severe whiplash can result.
If, on the other hand, the seat is so yielding that it'll absorb lots of the crash force, the seat back bends far enough backward that the passenger could fly out into whatever's behind -- solid glass or a tailgate, in the case of third-row seats.
The bounce-back from a yielding seat also can cause whiplash. Plus, it takes close to 3 feet of space for a yielding seat to lay back fully. A third row gets that much space only in big SUVs, such as Chevrolet Suburbans."
I don't think they are recommending 3 ft. of empty space. They are only saying that is what would be required if the seat were designed to "give" that much.
They go on to say that having a blend of seat rigidity (not needing the 3 ft.) and a frame that dissapates the enregies is the best design. It's just that no one has a scientific way to measure how effective any one design is.
Does anyone have any idea when some of these specs will be out?
Honda has been silent with specific interior and exterior dimensions. Lot of talk but no specifications yet.
I believe the cargo space behind the 3rd row will be identical to the MDX at 16 cubic feet.
Cheers
I have already put down a deposit at my dealer, because we have been waiting for a real Honda SUV (of larger proportion) for some time now. Yes, the Pilot probably can't take on the Rubicon, like my '99 Grand Cherokee can (when it's not having new rotors, etc. put on), but at least I won't get to know the Honda service folks like I have come to know the guys in the Jeep service department. Can you say POOR engineering and sucky reliability? Honda's reputation and our experience(we've always owned at least one Honda)are enough for me to get a place in line for this one.
What big car fans have been saying all along.
(Of course, where does that leave me with the Wrangler with around 3 feet to the FRONT seat?)
Remeber the old station wagons, where you could have 2 benches with 6 people AND a generous cargo area in back PLUS towing capacity AND a roof rack AND a storage well?
ANYONE???
PLEASE BRING BACK BENCH SEATS!!!!!
1) Memory seat and mirrors
2) Automatic dimming rearview mirror
3) Fog lights (I assume)
4) Wood trim
5) Transmission shifter on the floor
6) Trip Computer with temp read out, compass, etc. (I assume)
7) Larger 17 inch wheels
8) Separately controlled rear heat and air (Big maybe since the Odyssey has this so Pilot will probably, too)
9) And probably for 2003 a new 3.8 liter V6
10) And probably also for 2003, OnStar
11) 6 Disc in-dash CD changer (I assume)
But if you single the Touring MDX out, the Base MDX isn't all that different form the loaded Pilot, give or take a floor shifter and wood trim. So, hopefully they will add more to the MDX next year like I've heard but not raise the price by too much.
"Although it has the same wheelbase as the MDX, the Pilot is a little taller and wider, and consequently the interior is larger. It has a maximum cargo volume of about 90 cubic feet behind the front seats, compared with 81.5 for the MDX."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/20/automobiles/20PILO.html
Article also states that Pilot wheelbase will be same as MDX. Hope the extra volume goes toward third row seat room as MDX third row is cramped.
Making the vehicle taller would, of course, add a lot to cubic feet.
There's already been some posts on the pros/cons of having the vertical space. E.g. it's useful for hauling odd-shaped bulky items, it's less useful for stacking groceries and stuff where you want to keep the bulk of the bag under the windowline.
Incidentally I almost bought an MDX last year but when mine finally came into the dealership, they tried to screw me so bad on my trade in (ML 320) that I told them they could just give the MDX to the next guy which of course they did without a moments hesitation.
If this is true, then wouldn't the reduction from 146 cu. ft. of cargo space in the Odyssey to 90 cu. ft. in the Pilot come primarily from a higher floor height when the seats are folded in the Pilot?
Does anyone have a guess on how easy it will be for an actual adult to get into the 3rd row? I got into the 3rd row of an MDX but it wasn't easy. They wouldn't let anyone touch the Pilot.
Sequioa: My knee was tightly against the 2nd row seat, but the raised floor made it awkward to sit. I wouldn't like to sit in the third row for more than a fifteen minutes. Getting in/out was a challenge.
MDX: About 1" less legroom than Seq. The floor was not as high, but knee was well against the 2nd row seatback. The one-push mechanism in the second row seat to make room to get into the third row was good but getting in/out was still a challenge.
Odyssey: The most comfortable third row.
Pilot: NA.
Probably about the same range as the Toyota Highlander plus $2000-$3000 to start with is a good assumption. They are trying to compete against Toyota more than anyone else.
Best Regards,
Berkeley, CA
Toyota options you to death, Honda does not (although some people view having to get a higher trim line to get some features as the same thing).
If it is true, then the idea Wmquan described about the sloped rear window and raised roof, would not apply. At least not significantly. Which leaves us with few other explanations.
As far as paying over MSRP, fugedaboudit! Just find a reputable dealer. I have a $500 deposit down on a Pilot and the receipt says price not to exceed MSRP. I bought one other vehicle from this dealership so I know they'll stick to this. They also have a great service department. If anyone is in the Chicago area and wants the dealer's name and phone number let me know.
We're getting carried away with all this detailed speculation when we know little about the final Pilot specifications, and when there are so many variables.
The 90cf volume I posted from the NYT does not mention whether this is an EPA volume number, or manufacturer volume number. If you have followed the Toyota Sequoia vs GM Suburban interior volume controversy you know that manufacturer numbers should be taken with a grain of salt (Toyota numbers were inflated by removing rear seat, which required a wrench). The kicker with Honda is that they are typically conservative. For example, MDX hp is rated 240, yet acceleration times (0-60 in 8.1 sec) plugged into hp calculation yields more like 280 hp (and at the rear wheels !). Bigger horses...?
I have remarked before, that they are magicians with their motors (historic performance of S2K), and are becoming magicians with interior space as well. For example, the 02 Civic and CRV both increased approximately 10% in interior volume while retaining their old exterior dimensions. (This actually reinforces the MDX platform information as 90cf is approx 10% larger than MDX 81.5cf)
I was hoping that the Pilot would have more volume than the currently reported 90cf as my current vehicles have 120, and 155cf (no not SUVs, vans). I continue to hope that volume and wheelbase numbers (I read at one time an 8 inch longer wheelbase for the Pilot than the MDX) are Honda disinformation, and that production vehicles are 114in wheelbase, and 120cf plus volume.
Bottom line is, I expect Pilot fans will be pleased with the packaging inside and out, regardless whether the platform is identical to MDX.
And speedbird151, I like your numbers.
Manufacturers measure based on the Society of Automotive Engineer's (SAE) Recommended Practice J1100, and it's based on a number of factors, such as:
"The SAE procedure calculates interior volume from many height, width and length dimensions inside the vehicle, including head room, foot room, seat width, etc. The trunk volume is typically determined by putting many suitcase sized boxes in the trunk and adding up the volume of each box."
It's not clear if the cargo volume of an SUV is only the cargo volume below the seatline but I wouldn't be surprised, now that varmint mentions it. Makes sense (in which case the Pilot is getting its volume elsewhere).
Unfortunately, SAE's website does not have J1100 available for easy perusal -- you have to buy it to see it.
Please also note that SAE's procedures have changed somewhat, as I've seen some measurements based on "old standard" and "new standard."
I like Consumer Reports' approach where they use the box frame, as well as the old-fashioned soft drink/beer case. Obviously one's cargo volume is affected by what shape of cargo they're packing, of course.
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/2002.htm
or
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/new/pilot/pilot3.htm
Here is where is trim and colors are:
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/news/021602.htm
Here are is the accessories:
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/parts/extension/pilot/03pilot.htm
ENJOY
The pictures: we've seen on wieck.
The info.: we've already read it from other sources.
Basically, nothing new.
Oh, and we're the featured discussion for the week.
The dealer I have my deposit with is writing contracts for 6/30/02 delivery (althouth they were not sure on that, that is what their regional distribution rep from Honda told them). Also, they were anticipating around $2,000 over comperably equipped Odysseys as far as MSRP goes (basically the AWD).
At $4,000 over MSRP, you could fly anywhere in the country, buy one at sticker, have a great road-trip back home, and still be $3,500 ahead.....
I'm in the suburbs too! I only know Nissan dealers, so please fill me in on the Honda dealers who provide quality service in our area.
I don't want to deal with a dealership that doesn't want to bother with you after you bought the vehicle!!
Thanks!
With all of these new entries coming in the market, Honda/Acura better come correct with their marketing. I see the light at the end of the road that this may turn to a buyer's market in the latter part of this year. Honda dealerships better not play the same game as their sister company (Acura) is doing now.
Also, Autoweek.com is now showing the new pictures of the new porsche SUV. I'm sure it will be out of my price range, but hey, I can still dream.