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I would personally avoid the integrated carseats. They're not particularly good as carseats, and not particularly comfortable as regular seats, so you're paying extra for two mediocre products. Put that money on a good carseat instead.
Oh well.. guess I'll go mow the lawn....
Plus I'm still pissed at myself for the door thing, put hey I get a free paint job out of it.
Odie
Yeah, and it's ridiculous. Why can't people just admit the CR-V is best for some buyers, and the Liberty is best for others? The CR-V happens to meet more of my needs, and includes less "fluff" that I don't want or need. That doesn't mean it's "better" than the Liberty. It's just better for me. Same as the CR-V vs Escape discussion.
Maybe you can tow your mower?
We all know Honda just hides screw-ups better than Ford..
Not the TSB thing again? Go to NHTSA like everyone else and look them up! I'll give you a count -
Escape -6
CR-V - 1
Heck, if I've got a lawn mower engine, it must be embarassing to get smoked by a CR-V at a stop light. Yeah, yeah, I know, you pull stuff and like to go voom voom on the hilly terrain and my CR-V can't pull your toys on the hills.
Whatever.
If I was going to buy a jalopy to tow junk, I'd have bought a good looking one, like the Liberty. And you can tell the guys on that board I said so. I think the Liberty looks great. Your mini-Grand Cherokee wanna-be just doesn't cut it for me.
GM's getting smart and using Honda and Toyota engines, will Ford?
If you ask me, the Escape and Liberty look a lot more alike than the CR-V and Liberty. You even said yourself that the Escape looks like a Jeep. Where does that leave the CR-V's looks in your book?
"GM's getting smart and using Honda and Toyota engines, will Ford?"
Why? They now have resources such as Volvo, Mazda, and Jaguar to spruce up their engines if need be.
At least those divisions know how to squeeze power out of the engines without having to wind them to the moon. I'll take that over a year or two more of durability that I'll never need any day.
On the other hand, Ford did buy the Escape's hybrid system from Toyota.
On the TSB count:
Escape 5
CR-V 1
One of the five for the Escape was a note to the dealers that an underbody heat shield has been discontinued. So really there are 4.
Has Honda submitted all of their TSB's yet? Even last year the CR-V looked almost TSB-free until about mid-year. There could be some government requirement to submit them around that time for all we know. I could be completely off, but this is all very familiar because we've discussed it so many times.
Maybe we'll do another count towards the end of the year.
The Escape has nothing in common with the Liberty. The Escape has me-too styiling and in my opinion, wants to be a mini-Grand Cherokee. The Liberty and the CR-V can be picked out from the crowd. In broad daylight, from any angle, you aren't going to mistake the CR-V or the Liberty for anything but the vehicles they are. That can't be said of the Escape. (And that's not just my opinion.
As we all say, styling is subjective.
Spruce up their engines? I don't think GM bought the Honda and Toyota engines due to their "sprucing". The engines found in the XR Matrix and Geo Prizim aren't "spruced". I think it had more to do with quality and availability.
They probably mean the full text, since I'm pretty sure the manufacturers have to submit TSBs to the NHSTA (that's where we get our summaries from). No idea what the time requirements are for providing them to NHTSA.
Ah, here's the Alldata full text disclaimer.
Steve, Host
Odie
That's what I was saying. The CR-V had very few TSB's listed on the NHTSA site until later in the year. It ended up having about 23 when all was said and done.
I'm just pointing out that the number of TSB's a vehicle has issued for it may not be such a great measure of quality. Especially this early in the year.
"I think the Escape looks more Like the Freelander than the Gr. Cherokee."
I agree.
"The engines found in the XR Matrix and Geo Prizim aren't "spruced". I think it had more to do with quality and availability."
Well, Pontiac makes the Vibe and Geo has been gone for quite some time now.
GM didn't just one day decide to buy Toyota engines for their cars. The Vibe and Prizm have Toyota engines in them because they were spawned from joint ventures between GM and Toyota. One did the bodies and/or stylings the other did the powertrains. Ford has done this several times with Mazda too. You're P5 has a Ford engine in it in case you haven't noticed.
I got the impression the Geo was more of a supplier thing. What did Toyota get other than cash?
One did the bodies and/or stylings the other did the powertrains.
Well, I think Toyota did everything but the interior. Not sure, it doesn't really matter. I'm just waiting for Lutz to start spouting off about GM quality once the Vibe helps raise their J.D. Power IQS ranking thanks to the Toyota parts.
Ford has done this several times with Mazda too. You're P5 has a Ford engine in it in case you haven't noticed.
Ahh yes, but, it's built in Japan. And re-engineered by Mazda. Precisely why I wanted a P5 not a Mazda3. Ford will now use the Mazda3 platform and the Mazda6 platform. On top of the Tribute platform they already use. It's a good thing (for Ford) that they have Mazda.
The Prizm was basically a re-badged Corolla. My Mother-in-law still has one. It's a typical small underpowered Japanese car, but it does run quiet and smooth like a Toyota. The interior is pure GM though.
"Ahh yes, but, it's built in Japan. And re-engineered by Mazda."
How is the P5's engine re-engineered by Mazda? It posts the same exact numbers as the same Focus, Escape, and ZX2 versions. Doesn't it?
It's not that I don't believe you. I'm just curious as to how it is better. "Built in Japan" isn't the answer.
Oh well.
Built in Japan could be the answer. You are correct, they are the same but, the 2.0 is a Mazda engine, not a Ford engine.
We have a Ford dealership in our auro group and it's right down the street. I have a few friends over there and they are starving. The Ford's (including the Escape) are growing roots into the cement from not selling. I think it's not a bad truck, just has a bad company reputation attached.
I actually wish it well.
A friend of my mother's had bought a 2003 Windstar late last year. Within a week, the van suddenly just stopped running while on the highway. They had the thing towed to the dealership and a week later they got the van back "fixed". Wouldn't you believe it but the damn thing just quit out again shortly thereafter. I mean, just complete failure...the engine just wouldn't run. She took the car back and must have threatened legal action or something because she got a full refund. She then went out and bought an Odyssey. It's been fine.
What the heck is going on at Ford?
Where did you get this info from? The last I heard the 2.0 was engineered by Cosworth for Ford. Why would Mazda produce an engine with the same exact specs when their parent company already builds one in bulk?
Am I wrong? Did Mazda do the engineering for all the 2.0's? I know they did the old 1.9 that was used in the early 90's Escorts. By the by, my Dad just traded one of those in and it was still running like the day it was bought. 12 years ago. The A/C compressor was replaced a few years ago and that's it.
Just in time to qualify for the extended warranty on the transmission?
When that dies, everything seizes. Hope she's not going fast when it does.
Here's a little diddy to clear it up for you -
Vehicles covered by the extended warranty include:
2000 - 2001 Honda Accord, Odyssey and Prelude
2000 - 2002 and some 2003 Acura 3.2 TL
2001 - 2002 and some 2003 Acura 3.2 CL
While only two percent of these vehicles have experienced these transmission problems, American Honda will provide extended transmission warranties on all potentially affected vehicles. "Our priorities are making sure our customers are taken care of and reassured they can continue to depend on their Honda or Acura automobile for a long time to come," said Tom Elliott, executive vice president for American Honda.
There is usually plenty of warning to the driver that the transmission is not operating properly, such as slow or erratic shifting, giving them ample time to take the vehicle in for service.
American Honda will notify all owners of eligible vehicles via mail in the coming weeks.
Anyway, the 2.0 here is 100% Mazda unless you go to Europe.
Style is subjective. The CRV is ugly as all get out to me! With its bug eyed styling, funky rear lights, Bug like body and puny tires! LOL@!..
Honda just hides screw-ups better than Ford.. The Odessey had all kinds of problems its first year, along with the Civic.. All this talk about Toyota engines makes me laugh.. Ever heard of the Toyota sludge problems?? Nope, they kept this under wraps also. Only out here on the net can you find anything about it. I never read one line about it in the paper..
Icvi..Do you have a pull string for that whimpy CRV engine? Once again you keep forgeting to mention they had to wind, rev, rap out whatever you want to call it, that 2.4 in order to achieve those 0-60 numbers in a 5 SPEED.. How many CRV 5spds are sold? maybe 5 percent? The automatic CRV is a slug...
Honda is covering their butts with that statement. All auto makers issue statements like that when something goes wrong. They're also lucky that it happened before the government stepped in and prohibited those acts. If something like that happens now, a recall is the only way to go.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-03-11-recall_x.htm
"While only two percent of these vehicles have experienced these transmission problems, American Honda will provide extended transmission warranties on all potentially affected vehicles."
Two percent so far. It's still early and the vehicles are only 2-3 years old. That number will grow or else they wouldn't have extended the warranty. What happens if the seizing transmission damages the engine? Doesn't seem like the warranty covers that.
Bottom line is, they should have been recalled.
"Anyway, the 2.0 here is 100% Mazda unless you go to Europe."
Isn't there a magazine or some kind of consumer web site that proves this? I mean, how are we to function with out the proof?!!!
Here's a good guide to how many I4 Escapes Ford sells:
https://web.msslib2.dealerconnection.com/RightSite/getcontent/myf- ile.pdf?DMW_OBJECTID=09000c5880382dbb
Yes, if my wife had wanted an SUV with a manual tranny the CR-V would be in our garage right now. You just don't buy an Escape if you want an I4.
"Since I only drive manuals, this is an important comparison."
Since I live in an area with a lot of large hills and my wife "needed" an auto tranny, more power was important to me. The CR-V's I4/auto tranny combo didn't cut the mustard when it came to overall hill climbing ability under load.
Let me reiterate, there are no straight or flat roads here. 0-60 times mean squat when it comes to hill climbing.
What does all this mean (crvgirl, you can chime in any time)? It means that we both had different needs and found the best way to fill them.
How many of you actually keep your Honda cars or "trucks" for more than 10 years? I myself try not to keep vehicles for that long which is why I won't "settle" for a Honda if I don't like it.
(Hondaman, if you're tuning in, I'm going to use you as an example below. Please don't take it personally and feel free to correct any misgivings.)
At one time we had a member named hondaman02 who constantly threw JDP, CR, and other various CR-V friendly sites at us in an effort to prove that Honda Motor is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Then he went and traded his last gen CR-V in (it was less than five years old if I recall) for a new one. All the while he claimed to "really like the Tribute", but had a bad experience with a rental, so he steered clear of buying one.
I know some of you really liked the CR-V better than anything else. That's understandable (and forgivable
What vehicle did you trade in for the CR-V, and how old was it? We traded in our 98 (really it should have been a 97) ZX2 for the 2002 Escape. We'll probably keep the Escape for about 6-7 years and move on.
Look at the alternative if you want a Ford. The Windstar has been a major headache for many of it's owners. (My Aunt and Uncle to name two.)
I've got a friend at Mazda R&D. The 2.0 is Mazda through and through. I'll look for some written evidence of it for you. The 2.3L found in the Mazda 6i is also all Mazda.
I agree with your long term dependability assessment. But you're forgetting, if you're not going to keep it, you're going to sell it or trade it in. That long term dependability translates into better resale and higher trade-in.
How about imported domestics? The UAW can't like this.
http://jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003030
Ya think someone's buying a more powerful engine so they can say "Yeah Dilbert, this is the one with 201 HP!"
If you recall, I mentioned that I have a company that rents vehicles very often for the various work we do. Also, I drive about 35 to 45oooo++ Kms every year so I tend to put on more millage in 2 years than most of you do in 5 so that is part of the reason for sure. Also, I have the luck of not having to pay monthly payments and therefore get high prices for trade-ins.
The reason for my love of Honda or Toyota is that we use a fleet of about 40 vehicles a year therefore allowing me to evaluate cars and these are the only ones that never give us problems whereas (in my case) Ford was alwyas the worst. What can I say.......I base it only on personal experience. I am a big boy and don't need magazines to tell me what I should or should not like. I take most articles lightly but often useful for reference to verify if they are correct.
Baggs.......I never said I really liked the Tribute, I said that the concept was very promising but overall the package still needs some work. This is a very powerful vehicle and agree that in no way does a CRV beat it even though it comes close. What bothers me the most about the Escape or Tribute is that each one you drive feels different from the other and lacks consistency. Some of you have no problems but some do and they can be weird at that.
I am not here to judge your decision but I have a large amount of miles in domestics and can say that they never cease to amaze me with their inconsistency. Hope this answers your question or was it a question?
That's true. But you still have to keep the thing for a while to see a big difference. Then there's the whole purchase price thing too. Today's rebates on domestic models could offset some of that difference because the purchase price is much lower. The rebate's impact on resale value should not be equal to the actual amount of the rebate. I have no idea what the ratio might be though.
Here's my personal example (no rebates):
1998 Escort ZX2 bought May 1997 for about $15,500, traded in Jan. 2002 for our Escape. It had about 37,000 miles on it at trade in and they gave us $4500 (probably should have got more, but I didn't feel like arguing that day). Current BB value with 55,000 miles is $3,130.
1996 Civic EX bought June 1996 for about $17,800, still own with around 53,000 miles. Current BB value is $5,045.
Both are/were 5 spd and loaded with all the goodies (exceptions: no moonroof on the ZX2, no ABS on the Civic because it wasn't an option).
The purchase price difference was about $2300 and the current BB trade in difference is about $1900. Close enough for me.
The ZX2 will probably carry the label "for parts" before the Civic ever will, but like I said, you'd have to keep it for a long time to ever see that. I hope I never have to.
Glad to see you're still around when we need you!
Judging by your answer I'd say that you probably fall into the group of people who prefer Honda's for their packaging. You're just plain used to them and feel comfortable in them at the same time because of that. Other brands just don't seem right and that's the way it should be (don't even get me started on the lady from my parking garage with the auto tranny BMW 325xi who thinks she's too cool for words and drives 25 mph so everyone can see her and her sunglasses).
I have a problem with the people who try to tell me that a Honda (or Toyota since you brought it up) is the best thing out there and I'm crazy for buying a domestic vehicle. They throw JDP, CR, and whatever else they can find in my face trying to prove that "Honda's last forever" and I should base my decision solely on that information just like they did. Then they proceed to trade in their "everlasting" Honda (Did Willy Wonka work for Honda?
All this quality, reliability, durability stuff is great for the people who really need it. I'll admit that if I had to keep a vehicle for as long as I possibly could (the old "drive it till it dies" attitude) I'd always buy Honda's, Toyota's or Volvo's. Since I don't have to, and don't want to, I'll stick with what I'm comfortable in/with. Currently that just happens to be a Ford Escape.
Long term reliability is part of the equation. I like the fact that most of the time my Honda's haven't needed anything more than routine maintenance. As a matter of fact, the only time anyone of them (86 CRX, 90 CRX, 00 Civic, 03 CR-V) has needed anything other than routine maintenance was the CR-V. The HVAC fan was bad and they replaced it in 2 hours. The fact it will last is just a bonus. (When I sell it and for piece of mind.)
I don't want to waste my time and energy with the headaches associated with dealer service departments. I've found the best way to stay out of them is to buy a car that hates them too.
I could go out a buy an Escape today and find that it's one of the most trouble-free vehicles I've owned. OTOH, I could buy a CR-V and bang my head against the wall for buying a hunk of junk. But that's only a possibility and frankly it's a small one. Personal experience and independent data support that buying a CR-V will provide more satisfying ownership than an Escape. I am rather willing to forgive a vehicle's faults if it does a superlative job handling its primary function: gas-and-go transportation. So a CR-V can only tow 1500 pounds whereas a competitor's V6 could pull more. If the CR-V gets me from point A to B without complaint, without requiring needless trips to the dealer for fixes and corrections, I'm happy. I don't want to have to worry about my vehicles; I need them to be ready for use all the time. Life is too stressful and cars are too expensive to have to deal with manufacturing problems.
Yes, I may place a little too much blind faith in Honda for delivering perfectly reliable vehicles (which they don't). But who can I trust more? That list is short.
Speaking of trust, I don't trust the Big 3 because they show little concern for the value of their used car fleet. When they rolled out these $2000-$4000 cash back deals recently, they've effectively reduced the value of late-model domestic vehicles. A used car is basically worth what a new one would cost minus wear and tear for the mileage and age. When the cost of new models decline, the used fleet falls in value as well. I should know. The sticker on my Contour came to $19K but I only received $8K on trade after 28 months and 29K miles of ownership. One dealer offered me $5500 for the car. I mean, that's just unbelievable.
Honda and Toyota generally don't fall into the incentive trap. Really, when was the last time Honda offered cash back on one of their models? They don't engage in that type of brand-degrading behavior. Their pricing is in better accordance with market demand than the Big 3, who slap "wishful pricing" on their models and seem to resort to fire sales to move overpriced product.
http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getst- ory_ssf.cgi?g7360_BC_MI--HighwayDeathsSuit&&news&news- flash-michigan
As for the resale argument, not every purchase works out the way you expect. Buying a car with good resale value and a record for reliability is insurance against the unexpected.
I planned on keeping my CR-V for about 10 years, but last year considered trading it in for a Pilot. My needs had changed and I could have used more space. I never made that trade, which turned out to be a good thing because my situation changed once more and I no longer need the bigger vehicle!
Same with my sister and her husband. They had a second kid and traded in a 3 door Caravan which they'd had for less than a year. They replaced it (with a CR-V) because the Caravan's lack of side doors meant they had to climb in to get at the second child. The van turned out to be a major hassle.
There's no way I could have anticipated that my vehicular needs would have changed so fast or so frequently. My sister never would have expected a small SUV to work better as a family vehicle than a mini-van. In either case, buying a vehicle that holds its value and will last long term is the best way to hedge your bets against the unexpected.
Were the tires at the recommended PSI at the time?
And more importantly...
Were they wearing their seat belts?
Doesn't look like it because they were thrown from the vehicle. That's not only stupid, but against the law in most states.
Ford is going to be sued for tire blow outs for some time to come. These stories are getting old.
My answer:
In my driveway, aside from my 03 CRV EX and my wife's 95 Explorer, is my 90 Civic LX 5sp (Purchased 10/89). Nearly 14 years old and still going strong (just needs new paint). This is why I chose Honda, I keep my vehicles for the very long term!
I have never tried to put the 2.0 Zetec in competition with the 2.6 in the CRV. However, a new 2.3 is coming, I believe in 2004/5 model years, and it will compete head to head with the 2.6. Already available in the Ford Ranger and I believe the Mazda 6. It will be cleaner, more powerful and give better MPG than the present 2.0 Zetec. Then we'll talk...
My 2001 Accord is classified as a NA vehicle. Over 65% of all parts were manufactured in NA and the final assembly point was Marysville, OH. My last car, a 98 Ford Contour, was assembled in Mexico (with quality to match, ewww).
I really don't care where a car is made (except for quality concerns). I buy what is best for me at an atomic level. There's no sense in buying a domestic car simply to think I'm supporting American jobs when I'm the one who has to own and operate the car. My Contour was a POS. I bought domestic but I also bought headaches. No thanks.
I like Honda. They just happen to be a Japanese company.
You are very right by saying that the Honda fits my needs better with their packaging and I do need high reliability as this is one point I have to stress once again through experience. I have high millage on my vehicles and they must last for the job. My wife just received the Accord coupe V6 6 speed and I can tell you that I am sure if many of you tried it, you would have shivers down your spine! It is quite a machine for the buck! I cannot remember having so much fun since I had my first Tonka trucks made of pure metal as a kid!
I like the feel for sure but mostly it has to do with all of their vehicles having the same expectations with no surprises.
For comparisons sake.........I would love for the CRV to have a V6! This would make it so much better and probably a cut above the rest. However, Honda has an uncanny ability to make 4s act like 6s and the price would be too high to compete with an Escape for example. Would it be better? To the owner maybe but in real life it would depend on who is driving it. I guess you could ask yourself............do I need one?..NO! Do I want one?........YES!
Did you read this???
http://jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003030
BTW my last vehicle 00 Honda Civic was built in America. My new vehicle 03 Mazda Protege5 was built in Japan. Which is worse?
Our CR-V was built in England.
The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis contain so many foreign parts they are classified as imports by the EPA.
Both the 2.0 and 2.3 are Mazda engines.
Your flag waving is weak. The automotive biz is becoming much larger than just us versus them. DCX isn't even an American company!!!
I used to be a die hard domestics only guy. My family owns a business that relies heavily on the big3. Many of my family members work for the big3. Many of my friends work for the big3. I've worked indirectly for Ford, DCX and now Mazda. Problem is, they stopped caring about me, my wants and needs and kept building crappy cars. Face it, very few vehicles built in the US of A from the mid eighties up until just recently couldn't hold a candle in terms of reliability, fuel economy and price to their Japanese counterparts. That's fact, not fiction. I implore you to find anyone in the automotive press that would state otherwise.
Read this -
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=5278
If everything was so hunky dory, why do they need redemption?
I'll start worrying about the big3 and their UAW employees when they take my financials into account during their contract talks. These guys have been laid off for months and they sit on their fat butts collecting UE or, they take another job and get paid under the table. I know these people. They live all around me. Not to mention the clause in their contracts that gives them something like 90% of their pay if they're laid off.
The big3 made their own problems, not me.
Get on your soap box and tell GM not to buy Honda and Toyota engines. Tell DCX not to be so international. Tell Ford not to use Mazda engines and platforms in their upcoming vehicles.
I'm not the only one that prefers imports -
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=5286
Hopefully, you don't just do the usual respond without reading the entire post.
Your economic theory is equally faulty. The US economy is in the tubes for many reasons. Canada is kicking our agricultural bottoms with better growing technologies. Japan is taking market share from the US auto makers and technology markets. US businesses have been caught selling an unsupported bill of goods. The list goes on. In many cases (not all), the US giants of industry have gotten fat, lazy, and inflexible.
"Buying American" allows the US industries to focus only on American consumers. What they should be doing is getting out into the world and selling to other countries! Let the wild animals learn to fend for themselves and stop feeding them in your yard.
But I digress...
Ivcvi - Thanks for the links.
The information on suppliers was also passed around last year. Looks like things have changed, but not in the direction that the domestics wanted.
The slogan mentioned in the other reminds of Ford's new tag line, "If you haven't looked at a Ford lately, look again." Which seems like a sincere attempt to say, "We're losing market share, please come back." They have the same issue with appearing too frank about how things are going.
If you search the web you'll find numerous versions of the Continental recall story. One of them states that Ford did discover the tire problem themselves and reported it to Continental immediately. Continental recalled all of them almost instantly. Unfortunately, it appears that those people wound up being one of the statistics which lead to the recall.
Ford didn't even know there was a problem with the tires (which is not really their job to begin with but they now do it because of the whole Firestone thing) until they noticed an unusual number of claims were coming from somewhere over in the Middle East. That's when they went to Continental. But again, it was too late.
I don't think they could have issued it any earlier. It wasn't a Ford problem any way. Continental admitted that the tires were defective after Ford had discovered it.
Ford choses it's suppliers as does every other manufacturer. I suppose we'll have to look at court docs to see when Ford actually learned of the problem.
I don't really care. I'm not buying a Ford or putting Continental tires on my vehicles.
I'm not real big on the ContiTrac's we have on the Escape either. Not from a safety stand point, but from a performance stand point. They perform well enough in the twisties, but they aren't the greatest in foul weather. I want both.
I hear good things about Good Year's SUV tires.
"What if the out sourced part was a brake caliper that tended to sieze. Who's problem is it then?"
In that case it would be on Ford because the part was specifically designed for them. The Continental tires weren't and could be used on almost any vehicle if purchased from a local tire store.
For example, Joe Smith from anytown USA, who bought them to replace his OEM tires on his Suburban, received the same letter that every Navigator and RWD Expedition owner received. He would have to buy the brake caliper directly from Ford if he wanted to put it on that same Suburban. If something went wrong with it, he'd have to deal with Ford.
Engineers spend lots of time and money deciding what tires are best for each vehicle. I'm not sure I'm willing to let Ford off the hook that easily. Whenever you hear about roll-overs, you hear about over/under inflation and how the manufacturer does all of this testing to determine what's correct. I believe the same is true of the tires themselves. If it isn't, maybe it should be.
Anyway, like I said, I'm not planning on purchasing either anytime soon so it doesn't really matter.
I seriously hope the next time I buy a vehicle I can look at a domestic vehicle. It would be nice to use the discounts various family members get from the big3.
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=5351
Icvi - I read your links. Are you American? What do you do for a living? Are you saying Americans can't produce? or make anything of quality? I used to think alot like you. Open the markets, free trade is good. I am not Union. I rely on my Education and my abilities, I get paid what the market will bear. However I can't compete with Juan in Mexico City that is willing to work for a dollar a day. Are you willing to work for a dollar a day? This issue obviously hasn't hit home with you yet. I have seen thousands of High-tech professionals, people with BS, MS, PHD's get laid off this last 2 years. Unemployment is 8 percent in my region. People loosing their homes, cars, families. My spending habits will change. I will continue to buy products made here in the U.S. I vote with my dollar. Lets take this over to the "News/views globalization topic before Steve shuts this down...