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I am not being naive. I am simply responding to what you write. I read everyones posts including Baggs.
The mis-information your spreading:
"Or a car (refering to Fords/Escape) that keeps needing repairs and keeps strading my wife and kids, but hey who cares, I can get it fixed for free on monday with my nice big warranty"
(No evidence that Escapes are leaving more people stranded than CRV's)
(Warranty is the same for both the Escape and CRV)
"Why doesn't Ford just come out and say "please pay more for this one and we will see you soon because it will not all work"".
(No evidence that Escapes just don't work)
"We don't care at all if it (the Escape) is extremely UNsafe in a crash or if you may fall out or not"
(NHTSA shows the Escape with same crash ratings as the CRV except for one catagory where there is 4 star instead of a 5star. Hardly an 'UNsafe' vehicle)
"there is NO incentive on CRV's"
(Edmunds and owners here indicate they are getting CRVs for $1000 under MSRP)
"I know they (Ford Escape owners) all hang out together.........at the closest Ford service station"
(no evidence that all Ford owners have the level of problems you indicate)
We are able to bring up valid points that may explain some 'errors' in the CR and JDP reports.
Your constant insistance that Ford Escapes must be bad vehicles because Ford offers incentives on them to me sounds just like a sales pitch. The pitch: Honda's are better, and this is proved by Ford offering of incentives. This 'pitch' serves 2 purposes. A. to try to convince the buyer that Honda's are much higher in quality. (and then stating some fact about Fords that have no relationship to quality (ie incentives)) B. Encourage the buyer to pay more, because the quality is higher.
This is not a 'sneaky' or 'underhanded' pitch by any means. It is a common and widely accepted marketing/sales technique.
Just because a car maker offers incentives for a vehicle, doesn't automatically mean that vehicle is a bad vehicle or is otherwise inferior to the competition.
Ford also offers incentives on its F-Series trucks as well. I think we generally agree its a good truck, and in many folks opinion the best truck on the market.
Just because a manufacturer doesn't offer incentives for a vehicle, doesn't automatically mean that vehicle is a good vehicle or better than the competition.
Tell me bess, In my comment
" Like I had mentioned before, which would you be happy with. A car that has a history of not needing repairs over time, but does not have a larger warranty. Or a car that keeps needing repairs and keeps strading my wife and kids, but hey who cares, I can get it fixed for free on monday with my nice big warranty. "
Tell me and all of us here.....where did I hide the word Ford or Honda or any other exact car maker there....Please tell me, PLEASE.
You can't, maybe because I wasn't referencing Ford at all. I was simply saying that you should buy a good car and get all of your moneys worth. You should not buy a 25k car and not care if something doesn't work and just play it off saying "Thats what warranties are for"....
Hey bess, what is the difference between possible (not guarantee) discount and a rebate and or low finance offered direct from the auto maker....
....It is what you call an "incentive" An incentive is something you use to entise a consumer to look at or purchase your product.
There is absolutly no incentives, rebates, low finance, NOTHING offered by any bank or Honda on the CRV...Accord....Pilot.....Element....Odyssey...S2000.....
Your absolutly right when you say that incentives does not make a car bad or inferior. 100% correct......than why the incentive?
Civic's have 1.9% on them. does it make them bad, no. They have been slow thus needing a boost.
If a certain car is doing so well in sales than why need the incentive?..thats my question. No one seems to want to touch it...
Oh well..
Bess, I am so happy that you and yours have been lucky with your vehicles. truly, I said it before. I mean it. I also mean it when I say that please stay over with Ford. I am not sure you would be happy with something else....or would another company be happy with you.
I have no interest in going back and forth with you, nor does anyone have an interest in reading it.
If anyone has any legitimate questions for me concerning a CRV or it's competition, please ask. That includes you Bess. If you want to just go back and forth with nonsense.....your talking to deaf ears....
The fact is the CRV has competition and some stiff competition at that. The Escape is selling and each Escape/Trib sale takes away from a possible CRv sale. The Escape/Trib are not the only competition for the CRV. The Liberty, Santa Fe and VUE offer V6 power. The power to tow, haul, pull a load. As much as Honda owners want so hard to believe the 2.6 is every bit as powerful (torque) as as a some of the V6's offered, its not. Chevy is coming out with the Equinox soon and there is going to be even more competition for Honda. I don't believe Honda has this huge reliability/quality advantage any longer, I won't pay the premium price they ask for their vehicles. Did this once and won't be fooled again..
http://www.startribune.com/stories/432/3909133.html
Ultimately, the only way out of the incentives trap may be for carmakers to build vehicles of such quality that buyers will be willing to pay the full sticker price for them.
Several makes with a reputation for high quality, including Mercedes-Benz, Honda and Toyota, have mostly stayed out of the incentives game.
Hmmmm, where have we heard this before?
Also, you've changed your 'incentives' question a bit.. At first you were asking:
If Fords are so good (in quality) then why do they need incentives.
(Which I answered above, did you not read it?)
now you've changed the question to
"If (the Escape) is doing so good in sales th(e)n why do they need incentives."
answer: there are many reasons for incentives. One reason pointed out in icvi's link says "to bring buyers to the showrooms who otherwise would not even be looking to buy a new vehicle"
A reason I've given before: if 2 vehicles are equal in most other aspects, then incentives can sway the buyer.
Also, you claim that I've been 'lucky' with my vehicle choice? Is that how you would characterize your vehicle choice ('lucky'?). I doubt so. There's no 'luck' involved with either of our choices, both are excellent vehicles and brands.
It's not the worst car in the world, but it has been the worst one I've ever driven to date. Although, if it had been a better car we might have been more impressed with the CR-V. Honda's just don't impress us anymore. We used to think differently.
You better believe I'm going to milk every penny out of it come trade in time.
"You should not buy a 25k car and not care if something doesn't work and just play it off saying "Thats what warranties are for"...."
Why not? It is MY money isn't it?
The only thing I care about is screwing the salesman out of as much commission as I possibly can (i.e. the lowest price I can get).
Hey scape....1-800-752-9926. Honda Finance. ask them if there any low finance on a CRV. Ask them if there is any rebates on a CRV. Ask them if there is a dealer cash on a CRV. conversation wasn't about competition, of course there is. It's if you have a top selling vehicle, then let it stand on it's own and sell. Don't sit and brag about how it's the best and then turn around and say "it's so good I am going to give you all kinds of incentives to buy it....kinda of a contradiction.
Real nice baggs.....Don't sit here saying how bad I am and how inconsiderate I am and them say that....makes you no better than me.
Ok already, I started talking in here trying to be nice and maybe help others either buy a car or help with the one they have. All I get is aggression. I am really not that bad of a guy..lol...All I am TRYING to do is just point out what OTHERS have already said...guess it came out wrong. for all I upset or offended...I am sorry............
I never thought just picking a certain profession would make me a outcast of society.
If your granddad or Dad got ripped of by a car salesman, guess what, most of the current sales people weren't there..........
That little smilie thing at the end of my comment means it's a joke and you shouldn't take it seriously.
Lighten up a little.
To certain extent, yes. However, there is an equal opportunity for this to happen with both Honda and Ford. Or can you prove that Honda owners always interpret these experiences positively, while Ford owners have an adverse reaction?
To the contrary, I would guess that Honda owners actually report more "little problems" than the average Ford owner. With Fords, many people expect a problem or two. If something happens, they deal with it and move on. Not so with Honda. There are many buyers out there who expected their Honda to be more than reliable. They expected perfection and have reported extreme levels of disappointment after even the mildest of issues.
We can see that here in this thread (though not to the same extremes). Baggs feels that the car is reliable if it starts. I believe that everything on the car should work as designed. If we both had a problem with our rear wiper, I'm the one who is more likely to make a big deal about it.
Hence the joke. Good sales persons (is that politically correct enough) are hard to come by these days. My dad had the pleasure of dealing with one at the Lincoln/Mercury dealer where he bought his Sable. It really is nice to have someone who cares even the slightest bit about your needs.
I'm still searching.
Somehow I missed your reply to my pretensioner question back in April. Your description of the CR-V's dual pretensioners is above.
I searched around and couldn't find anything similar either. I can't see how a pretensioner in the buckle adds any benefit. If the shoulder belt is locked in a collision, the lap belt isn't going anywhere either because the belt is all one big piece of nylon. If the two were on separate spindles I could see the value in it.
How is the buckle pretensioner activated? The shoulder system is activated by a tiny explosion sort of like an air bag. I can't see that happening in the buckle area. I mean, c'mon, there's things in that area that we fella's want to keep as far from explosions as possible, right?
While I agree that the market is heating up, the CR-V is doing very well at retaining market share. If we were to take the comparison to the brand level, the combination of the CR-V and Element might be enough to make Honda the best selling small SUV manufacturer in the states. This despite the fact that Honda has one of the smaller dealer networks.
It does. The CR-V & Element have combined for YTD sales of 88,064 units. The Escape & Tribute have combined for 85,333.
However, the CR-V and Element are not twins like the Escape and Tribute are. The Escape and Tribute should really be considered one vehicle. The CR-V and Element are different enough to offer the buyer a distinct choice. So comparison in this sense is not really fair (I know you didn't really compare them this way.)
Let's go for SUV line now. CR-V, Element, and Pilot vs Escape/Tribute and Explorer/Mountaineer. Oh wait, that's not really a contest now is it?
Here's where I got the numbers:
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp
It's probably different in other parts of the country, but there are 5 Honda dealers to the 8 Ford dealers in my area. That's not much of a disadvantage if you ask me. All are within a 20 mile radius.
As for total SUV sales... goodness no. Honda could never compete with the full SUV lines from GM, Toyota, or Ford. Honda only has a three vehicles that might pass as SUVs. The others have rigs ranging from the Tracker to the Excursion.
At last count, Honda had about 950 dealerships in the USA. Ford had about 4,500. To give you some idea of what that means, Mazda has about 800. If you have an 8 to 5 ratio in your area, that means Honda dealers in other parts of the country could be facing 12 to 1 odds.
Didn't I hear that 5-8 years ago? Hmmm deja vu...
I am disagreing witn your constant implication and references to the Ford Escape and Ford in general as a brand of such poor quality that anyone who buys one is stupid and not as 'smart' as you claim to be.
Again, because you know everything, you try to 'tell others what they should do,believe or think'. Your latest quote:
"Don't sit and brag about how it's the best and then turn around and say "it's so good I am going to give you all kinds of incentives to buy it....kinda of a contradiction.""
I do not agree that it is a 'contradiction' to offer incentives for a vehicle even if its good.
I explained in previous posts the reasons why my opinion differs with your opinion.
I believe we have differing opinions both of which are based on facts.
There may also be other factors that give a buyer the perception that there are less problems.
For example has anyone done an analysis of general maintenance trends of Honda owners vs Ford owners. Are Honda owners more stringent in their maintenance routine, or more likely to take the vehicle to the dealership for the periodic checkup?
I know that there was alot of talk earlier this year about the performance comparison between the 5sp CRV and the automatic CRV.. We know the 5sp is a runner! (I personally love manual tranny's because of the performance gain you get). But I've seen less reviews of the automatic equiped CRV.
One thing I did noticed is that the Element is has the same engine tranny and 4wd system as the CRV. Edmunds comment on the element:
"EX models with the automatic transmission and 4WD can weigh more than 3,500 pounds. As such, acceleration is on the slow side with these vehicles, though others, especially with the manual, should be fine."
Soon the CRV will have to contend with a Mercury line of the Escape/Trib. Rumors also of an SVT Escape too! Fact is 85,000 people bought Escapes, not CRV's. 85,000 less CRV's on the road that Honda could have sold...
Why do you Honda fans have such a hard time when a Ford owner has satisfaction with their vehicles? or cannot believe they have not had any problems? But when a Honda person speaks up with a problem its " must have had a bad one" and its ok??
I skim through the CRV vs Liberty board, CRV vs VUE board and the same Honda fans pop up with the same lame stories of impecable quality and reliability of Honda... Like I said Honda just hides it better than other car makers.. About the article.. I guess the sludge in Toyota engines is ok also?? All over the net, never made it to the news or paper though.
Try it - you'll like it!
tidester, host
Steve, Host
The Element has 105.4 cu.ft., placing it 6/10ths of a cubic foot under the line.
As for the acceleration comparison, you are forgetting that the Automatic AWD Element weighs 3,595 lbs. A CR-V in the same configuration weighs 250 lbs less.
Which means the Element weighs about as much as the Escape.
It seems the 2.4 doesn't do as well when a little more weight is added. Sound familiar?
C&D squeezed an 8.7 sec 0-60 run out of a heavier 5-speed Element (.3 sec slower than the 5-speed CR-V).
MT agreed with Edmunds that the 5-speed was better, and didn't like the auto tranny either. They commented on the slow acceleration of the auto as well.
A quick search turned up 2 national sources and one local source. Anyway, that's Toyota. I'm not going to stand by their vehicles, go to a RAV4 board if you wanna talk about it.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002/04/04/toyota-sludge.htm
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=1902
http://www.wusatv9.com/consumer/consumer_article.asp?storyid=4725
Honda's TSB's can be found on NHTSA.COM. If you can't find info, you need to look better.
I spotted an Escape on my way home yesterday with the plate TSB 101. What a nice way to start my evening, with a laugh.
Remember when Ford dealers thought the Thunderchicken was going to sell like hotcakes? Anyway, you may want to look at the economy right now, it may be playing a role in PT sales. The Beetle is suffering from VW's lapse in quality, as many of their vehicles are.
The Element is different than the other vehicles you listed, it's a Honda.
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=5525#story1
Now if I could just find numbers for employee and supplier discounts. I realize that the Escape most likely wasn't a major player in that number. I'm just posting this stuff to prove the point that sales don't mean a vehicle is better or more wanted.
It does weigh 250 lbs more than the CR-V. That was my point. Besides, you're not going to lose as much performance when you add weight to the Escape as you would in the CR-V.
What we want to do is take 250 lbs off of the Escape to make it more competitive with the CR-V. With all things equal (auto trannies, and weight) the acceleration numbers would be a lot different. I don't think the CR-V would be as impressive any more. Still good though.
Ford owns Hertz and another one or two rental companies here in the U.S.. Do you think they are going to rent out another brand at those places? Of course not.
If you take the fleet sales away from Ford (about 200,000 for the first quarter of 2003) they still sell more than twice the number of vehicles that Honda does in the same time period. That's what's more impressive.
Honda would jump on being able to sell to fleets in an instant if they could. We're talking about some big fat juicy Government contracts here. Things like police/fire depts., Government official's "company" cars, work trucks for parks and recreation depts., etc., etc..
"Now if I could just find numbers for employee and supplier discounts."
What's that going to prove? I am eligible for that discount and I would definitely spend the extra dollars to get a better vehicle outside of FMC if I thought it would be worth it. It's not, and you are living proof because you bought a Mazda!
I'm sure Honda offers similar discounts to it's employees and their families. If they don't, they suck.
I'm just posting this stuff to prove the point that sales don't mean a vehicle is better or more wanted.
It's not, and you are living proof because you bought a Mazda!
I bought my Mazda specifically due to the S-plan price that I got. That coupled with the $200 the company I work for gives me, along with incentives at the time of my purchase made my P5 a swell deal. Without s-plan, I wouldn't have considered a Mazda.
What are you trying to do - stir things up in here?
-ss4
You are right though. It does not prove that a vehicle is better or more wanted. We need those magic numbers from the manufacturers that I'm always talking about to prove that.
You see, this is why CR, JD, and all those other surveys don't prove diddly either. There's too much room for error in all of those guides for them to be taken too seriously. You may not agree, but I know it's in the back of your mind.
Now one might say that sales figures are from the manufacturer and therefore are proof. But as you have pointed out, even those numbers can be misleading. However, when trimmed down to actual sales to real people (which is what we don't have for each individual vehicle), those numbers represent proof of a vehicles popularity. Just like an actual total of all problems per vehcle from the manufacturer will give us proof. Not what Biff and Muffy say on some rag's yearly survey.
I do see the manufacturers disagreeing with those said survey results from time to time which leads me to believe that they know more about the really picture than we do. Then again, why don't they give us the real numbers to prove that they have a case?
I just don't know! Do you?
Until I do know I'll keep driving whatever I need at the time of purchase. No matter what those other people say.
We know that the CR-V doesn't have this weight problem. If we're going to engage in a "what if" comparison, the natural question to ask is, what if the Escape was handicapped with extra weight?
The Ferrari fleet is probably comprised of company cars purchased for everyone's favorite CEOs. :-( There are also a few rental agencies that specialize in renting out exotic cars for special occasions. I doubt these add up to a high volume of cars, but Ferrari sells so few units, it wouldn't take very many to add up to 9%.
"Honda would jump on being able to sell to fleets in an instant if they could."
No. Honda has traditionally avoided fleet sales. They have a much lower profit margin per vehicle. Why would Honda sell 100 Accords at 20K, when they can get a customer to pay 22K for it? The only time this would make sense is when dealerships cannot sell the model on the sales floor. That is seldom a problem for Honda.
Fleet sales have become a necessary evil for the domestic manufacturers. Partly because they've had surplus production in many of their plants. That is also not a problem for Honda. It's far more common for Honda to have the opposite problem; not enough production capacity.
Then there is the stigma associated with rental cars. Whenever I ride in my coworker's Taurus, I recall the rental cars I've driven. Even when I've liked the rental, the impression left behind is something akin to a taxi cab experience. It waters down the image of the car and the company.
So, no. I see no realistic reason why Honda would want to get heavily into fleet
Even if the Federal Government, who buys $500 hammers, wanted to replace their Stratii with Civics?
I don't think Honda could do it and still be able to meet customer demand right now. I do think they would if they could though.
"We know that the CR-V doesn't have this weight problem. If we're going to engage in a "what if" comparison, the natural question to ask is, what if the Escape was handicapped with extra weight?"
The Escape is handicapped with 250 lbs of extra weight when compared to the CR-V. Why would we want to add more to it?
The Element gives us a good idea of how the CR-V would perform if it weighed as much as the Escape. It's not as good as the CR-V with either the 5-speed or the manual. In fact, the 5-speed is closer to the Escape's auto setup than anything else.
The CR-V's weight advantage has been down played by many a Honda person in the past when we've discussed this whole 0-60 thing. I think the Element shows that the weight issue can't be completely discounted because 250 lbs isn't much weight, but it really reduces the 2.4's performance when present. Maybe not so much with the 5-speed, but the auto (which is what 80% of people will buy) seems to be pretty bad judging by the reviews I've read.
I also think that the Escape would perform quite well with an extra 250 lbs added to it. Definitely less noticeable than in the CR-V. I think someone did do a test like this before and the Escape did win out when under load.
Payload capacity for the Escape is 978 lbs.. If you're gonna load it up with 300lbs. of gear your buddies can only weigh 113 pounds each. Got lots of little friends do ya?
I thought you'd comment on this, not duck and run.
I only do that as needed but I have to give credit where credit is due - Steve posted that link!
tidester, host
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-06-09-ford_x.htm
There's a lot of history at FMC. I guess I, and I'm sure many others, just want to be part of that in some way. Like one big happy family.
Call me sentimental I guess.
That's a nice article on Ford. They give good snippets of the past, present, and future. I can't help but quote this though, "But in the end, Ford Jr.'s tenure as CEO will be measured by how much he can make the family business resemble the nimble and more efficient Toyota and Honda rather than any version of what Ford used to be."
I can certainly understand why a company's history would impact buyer loyalty. But sometimes breaking from that history is the thing to do. And, FWIW, Honda is not without a history to take pride in.
I also find differences in corporate culture interesting. Ford has their 100th birthday and throw a big party. Honda has their 50th birthday and they celebrate by producing a segment-busting sports car.
Here's an article on incentives.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0306/06/a01-185427.htm
Honda = $487 on average
Ford = $3,437 on average
Maybe that's true and maybe it isn't, but the big 2.5 do own rental companies and have to sell their own vehicles to them whether they want to or not. Those count in the totals too.
I know that Ford in fact does produce vehicles aimed specifically at fleets, their rentals (such as Hertz) included, which are usually stripped down versions of what Joe car buyer would see on a dealer's lot.
I don't really know what all that means, but I thought I'd just put that out there.
"The CR-V does not have an extra 250 lbs."
Did I say that? I know it doesn't. Let me try this one more time.
The Escape weighs 250 lbs more than the CR-V and therefore has the extra 250 lbs. Likewise, the Element has an extra 250 lbs over the CR-V.
The Element's acceleration with an auto tranny has been termed "sluggish" by a few reviewers.
A long time ago someone stated that the weight advantage the CR-V has over the Escape means nothing in terms of acceleration because it is such a small difference. He/she deemed the CR-V drivetrain to be superior, end of story.
The Element is now showing us that the weight is an issue and the CR-V really wouldn't do so well if it weighed as much as the Escape. This is because the Element is basically an overweight CR-V with the same engine and transmission.
Because of this I think it's safe to say that the CR-V wouldn't hold a candle to the Escape if it were 250 lbs heavier like the Element.
The 5-speed is another story though. It still impresses everyone. Too bad no one buys them.
"I also find differences in corporate culture interesting. Ford has their 100th birthday and throw a big party. Honda has their 50th birthday and they celebrate by producing a segment-busting sports car."
What about the Ford GT? It makes the S2000 look like a go-kart. :P
And the GT-40 makes it look like yesterday's news. And the Viper makes it look like a johnny-come-lately. And the $100,000+ price tag makes me wonder who'd pay that for a Ford. Don't get me wrong, I'd take one. But, if I had one hundred thousand dollars, I wouldn't buy one.
Cool? Yes. Segment-busting? No.
True. Now the big question... So what?
I can understand the "what if" game, but I don't get why you won't play it the other way around. "What if" the CR-V gets the 200 hp 2.4 from the TSX? "What if" the Escape pops a tire and must run on a donut (wanna race using your spare vs me and mine?).
Is the GT a corporate birthday present? I hadn't read anything like that. As for your comparison with the S2K (I know you were kidding), the go-cart analogy works. The S2000 will corner like a cart, while the GT spins into the grass. But I expect the upcoming NSX is the car with which comparisons will be made.
I already told you. The Escape's extra weight has been put off as an excuse for it's slower 0-60 acceleration in the past. We now know that that should not have been the case.
"What if" the CR-V gets the 200 hp 2.4 from the TSX?"
Where does that 200 HP come in at? Knowing Honda it's probably about 8,000,000 RPMs.
Why don't they just do what Saturn is doing and get it all over with?
"Is the GT a corporate birthday present?"
They are supposed to have a few production versions on hand for the big celebration which starts today I believe. They have been showing them around the Detroit area as well to gauge reaction and hear some criticism. Mostly to younger folks who can't afford them anyway.
"Cool? Yes. Segment-busting? No."
I agree. I was referring to the birthday present thing more than anything else. There's a lot of serious competition at that price range and a lot of big names.
Ford vs Ferrari? C'mon, give me a break!
Wait a minute. Haven't I heard that one before?
Anyway, the GT will obviously be produced in limited quantities for a limited amount of time. It is a car fit for a celebration which many a lucky collector will have the chance to own.
Celebration starts today. Hopefully the weather clears up for them.
Not by me. The fact that the CR-V is between 150 and 250 lbs lighter is why the CR-V can get away with a more fuel efficient, clearner four banger and still have good acceleration when it is needed. This is one of the resons why I openly laugh at Scape2's assertions about "40 more horses and lb-fts of torque." Power is less than half of the issue.
"Where does that 200 HP come in at? Knowing Honda it's probably about 8,000,000 RPMs.
Well, that's almost true. At 7100 rpms, the redline is higher. But that's only a few hundred higher than both the CR-V and Escape. The version of the K24 in the TSX has slightly more torque in the low, mid, and higher rpms. That's how it generates more horsepower.
I agree that the GT is a great looking car. I'm much happier seeing that than I would be with another over-muscled Mustang.
A few hundred? If 7100 is the right number then it's more like 1200.
Here are the numbers for the three vehicles according to Edmunds:
Escape:
HP: 201@5900 RPMs
Torque: 196@4700 RPMs
CR-V:
HP: 160@6000 RPMs
Torque: 162@3600 RPMs
TSX:
HP: 200@6800 RPMs
Torque: 166@4500 RPMs
You may get more horses from the TSX's 2.4, but I don't think it'll help acceleration. Look at where the extra 4 lbs/ft of torque comes in. That takes away the CR-V's low-end torque advantage when compared to the Escape. It might actually make it slower from 0-60.
At 3,600 the CR-V is making peak torque of 162. At the same rpm, the TSX is making about 164. It continues to climb to its peak torque output (166) at 4,500 rpms. So the TSX has more in the low end, more in the midrange, and more in the higher rpms. We compared torque curves a few months back.
Regardless, horsepower is what makes a car go fast. 40 extra horses (with little or no weight penalty) is going to move a car more quickly.