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If there is any manufacturer that has not had one recall or lemeon or whatever, I would like to know who it is! The fact is Honda last longer and that has been proven many times over by long-term tests and my personal fleet of rentals over the past 15 years. I don't need someone like you telling me stories about my own experiences with cars that I have rented for as long as 15000km's only to know better through various bad cars that Ford sells. We have had Escorts, Taurus, Explorer, F-150's ............and the only one that never gave us problems was the F-150 which is a great machine. I do not dislike Ford, HEY they are still courageous enough to keep the muscle car going which in these times is very dangerous BUT only some models that are pointed out here as we have had more than one nightmare story that we could tell you.
My V6 Accord 6 Speed has never quit and if anything blows the doors off almost all other cars out there including many V8's! I never said they were the best in the world but that they are the best for the dollar along wioth Toyota but do not think that they don't come with some glitches from time to time because it is mechanical just like airplanes or boats and you still get on them not knowing that most of them have major faults!
It sounds like you are Mr. Patriotic and that is fine as you Americans believe in that sort of thing I guess but the fact is cars will break and some are better than others but not perfect! I never said the Escape was not a good vehicle because Ford has done a lot of things right for once only that I get quite paturbed about the reliability thingy considering the amount of miles I have put in Fords that add up to many more than you have!
Allan Gilmour, Vice-Chairman at Ford Motor Company.
"Fact is we have lost over 30million manufacturing jobs in the last 5-10 years." - Scape2
Fact is, Ford is cutting some 2,000 white color jobs and wants to dump 20,000 manufacturing jobs. Right now, those workers are being kept busy building 400,000 Taurus sedans each year. Fully half of those are sold at a loss as fleet sales. At the same time, Delphi (largest parts supplier in the US) is sending jobs out of the country.
Meanwhile, Toyota is building a new truck plant in Texas. Honda recently built their Alabama plant to expand Ody production. And have also expanded lines at the Ohio plant.
Fact is, the "imports" are creating jobs, while the "domestics" are shedding them.
Just for fun.
"If automakers want to develop a long-term relationship with potential customers, they need to start paying attention to quality earlier in the development process"
Ford has earned my respect by producing vehicles that consistantly last well over 150K miles or more, have the look and feel I like, never leave me stranded or require visits to a service department because its broke down, at an affordable price.
Given the number of Fords me and my family have owned, I don't believe what I'm experiencing is 'luck'. The facts are there are millions of satisfied Ford owners out there.
Last time I checked, the CRV was not a 'perfect' vehicle either. Are you just 'lucky' that you haven't experienced a problem yet?
Many of us here also have considerable experience and knowledge about vehicles. Your opinion is based on your experiences, but in the end it is still just your opinion. My opinion is also based on my experiences, and yes it is just an opinion.
No one is disputing your experiences, however, you seem to hold your experiences up as the gospel, and anyone who has experiences different than yours must be just lucky or unlucky.. Is there a reason you think your better than everyone?
Your quote:
"I don't need someone like you telling me stories about my own experiences with cars that I have rented for as long as 15000km's only to know better through various bad cars that Ford sells."
====
Let me try:
I don't need someone like you telling me about my own experiences being just 'lucky' only to know better through the various excellent vehicles that Ford sells.
I could not pass this one up. I know I am posting this in an Escape room. Please Steve, don't delete me.. I'll move to the Accord room...I did not want car payments, just an automatic Accord LX standard miles, used. He had a 00 SE with 35,000 miles on it, sunroof, CD, keyless entry/alarm, aluminum wheels, ABS, spoiler, normal SE stuff. Paint was perfect, interior perfect. The car is like new. You guys know I am a perfectionist. I got this car for 3K out of my pocket plus my 00 LX. In the 3K I got an extended 2 year Premium warranty on the Accord SE. So tell me, did I do good?? A carfax was done on the car along with the dealship body shop putting it up on the rack and checking it out, along with the mechanic putting it on the diagnostic. Car came back as one private owner, no lemon, no wrecks, no water damage, passed diagnostics with flying colors, owned by a person right here in my home city... I am actually pretty damn excited... Economy is bad around here, noone buying much is what I am seeing here...OK icvi, varmit, hondaman.. beat me up....
And this has what exactly to do with CR-V or Escape??
I think you're looking for the Honda Accord discussion down the hall.
tidester, host
Something in that incentive article is wrong. Either the reporter mis-quoted Mr. Gilmour or Gilmour himself was lying. 2003 Escape and Focus SVT incentives are still the same as they were last month, and the month before that, and the month before that, etc..
As for the Edmunds list, we've seen it already. Here's the other one that people who actually sat in and drove the vehicles created:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2003/?tid=edmunds.h..re- views..12.*
The answer to your statement is TUCKER. Oh wait they didn't even get off the car show floor.
Odie
Steve, Host
Steve, Host
Shane
http://waag.com/showcar/post-gallery.php
or here;
http://waag.com/showroom/1.php
now I just need to talk my wife into letting me get some of the stuff :>
Odie
You may be right about things evening out, but I am not the type of person who keeps cars for 5+ years. If you keep a car forever, then maybe the Ford is an option. If you want to only keep it for a 2 or 3 years, I think the Ford would be a mistake. There is no way I can get out of my Taurus until 5+ year.
I think if you like them both equally after driving each, then you should lean toward the brand and service that has treated you well and you are comfortable with (which is Honda in this case).
If you get the CRV with the manual tranny, it probably will feel as (or even more) powerful as the Escape with the auto tranny. Comparing them both with the automatic tranny will likely result the Escape as feeling a little bit more powerful. However, the 2002 CRV is much improved over the 2000, and so it may be enough for your needs/wants.
Service centers do vary from location to location and from brand to brand. (The main difference is a factor of how effective the management is of that particular center). I've seen and heard of very good Honda and Ford service centers, and have heard stories about bad centers for both brands.
The engines are the same basic type, but implemented differently.
Congrats on your new CRV!
Stevedebi - Yes, and no.
All of the 2.4 variants use an i-VTEC valve system. It combines VTEC and VTC. VTEC controls both the valve timing AND lift. VTC controls the valve phase.
That said, the Element and Accord use exactly the same tuning. The CR-V uses a slightly different tuning for a bit more power in the midrange (but a bit less up top). The differences are not very significant. They never differ more than 4 or 5 lb-ft of torque. In a perfect world, the Element would have gotten the CR-V's tuning to assist with the extra weight. But since the Element is built right next to the Accord line, it doesn't make sense to complicate logistics for such a miniscule benefit.
The Acura TSX uses a third tuning, which is good for 200 horses and the most power at any rpm. The Accord in Europe and Japan has yet another variant.
I did find the rebate information on the Focus SVT and Escape that were mentioned in that article you posted a ways back. They are very hard to find though.
It appears Ford is offering something called "Bonus Cash" on the Escape (2003 only) in the amount of $500. This brings the Escape's rebate total up to $2000. 2004's are still at $1500. The only place I've seen this information is in newspaper ads. It is not posted anywhere else for some reason and I don't know the exact terms of it. Edmunds, for example, still lists the 2003's with $1500 cash back.
The SVT web site shows the 2003 SVT Focus as having a $2000 rebate. Financing terms are not mentioned (at least when I read it) so I do not know if they matched the regular Focus on those. Edmunds still says nada.
So that Ford guy was right. They are offering those aforementioned incentives. You just have to look a little harder for them, that's all.
I wonder if the dealers mention them straight out or if they wait for the (informed) customer to do it first.
And, even with all the attempts at making the Escape/Trib look like some sort of unreliable, low quality SUV Sales are up +14.2% in this time frame.. Hmmm... And Ford has 5 vehicles that actually gained market share! Honda.... 2. Looks like to me people are getting out on the net and reading and learning the Escape/Trib is not this unreliable low quality SUV.
I don't want to hear a 14.2% gain is all due to rentals either Honda fans....Oh, let me guess, its all due to rebates and incentives... yeah right...
There is no longer pent up demand and Honda has released two new SUVs. There's no brain surgery involved in that one.
Escape "competes" in the Ford showroom with Explorer (number one selling SUV in the US). In addition, there should be no "pent up demand" for Escape as it has been out for a while. So, back to Scape2's point:
Why is Honda CRV down 4.4% and Escape up 14.2%?
Reason (for me at least): First, nothing else beats the Escape for fun to drive and overall versatility. I love the power of the 201HP V6! It's a blast to drive - kind of like a sports car in an SUV. In a FWD Escape, I can squeal the tires by mashing the throttle - lots of fun!
Second, nobody else has the level of equipment/refinement that I wanted: I got the Escape Limited (monochromatic look) in Black, with Black leather interior. It comes with premium audio (7 speakers and 6 disk changer), heated seats and mirrors, reverse sensing, power drivers seat, automatic headlamps, etc, etc.
I drove the CRV and it just seemed cheap. Plus, I HATED the shifter on the CRV. It's so goofy that there was no way I'd ever get used to it.
So, sorry for the long post, but the reason that Escape sales are up is that like me, many people are voting with their wallets and buying Escapes.
Your Escape sounds very nice. I own an 01 Black V6 XLT 4wd. I use mine to tow my two watercraft, visit the Cascade Mountains to skii, hike and fish. I use my Escape on logging/access roads and it has never let me down. I have about 33k trouble free miles on mine. I have done just the general maintenance. At about 30K I had my transmission flushed along with my radiator. Other than that the Escape runs great and is very reliable. I'm sure you will have years of good service in yours too..
The CR-V and Escape are two entirely different vehicles. I bought the CR-V because I don't trust Ford reliability over a 10 year term, I don't need towing, the CR-V has more back seat room than an Explorer, and it has much better MPG (in real-world driving; I get 20-21 mpg in town; what do you get on your Escape?). Plus, I have driven both (using a rental Escape), and I prefer the CR-V. I like an efficient vehicle, and having a 2.4L four that performs almost as well as most six cylinders is a hoot. Incidentally, if I hadn't bought the CR-V, I would have bought the Element. I do indeed think the Element is taking some of the CR-V sales.
Other people have different needs, especially towing. Interestingly, the European CR-V is rated at 3000 Lbs towing, using the 2.0L engine.
I am glad to hear that some of the Escapes are providing flawless service. Congratulations. Unfortunately, while reliability for the Escape has been improving, it still is not a recommended vehicle at Consumer Reports. The CR-V IS on the recommended list, and has been for years. I have owned many Fords in my life, but once I went to a Honda, I realized that Honda simply builds better cars. Ford is improving, but not yet up there in terms of CONSISTENT quality, in my experience.
I based my decision, as I said, on my personal experience, and the solid feel of the Honda. My wife has 23K on hers, and no rattles at all.
I see you didn't care to compare real-world MPG between the two vehicles. But this really doesn't matter. As I said, these are two different SUVs, designed with different purposes in mind. MPG was important to me, towing and the larger engine were more important to you.
One has to pick the vehicle that fits his or her lifestyle and needs. I'm glad you are happy with your Escape, and I am very satisfied with my CR-V. That's what this thread is all about, helping people see the differences in the cars. Everyone will have a personal preferrence...
It was actually 5 and they only affected those copies produced within the first 4 months (which wasn't many) of production which began in July of 2000. A large portion of the affected copies were fixed before they were even sold. I can't really remember anyone around here or on any other Escape boards ever saying they had to take their copy back to the dealer for all five recalls. Two seems more like it.
You're right though, they shouldn't be given as much weight as they often are. Most modern vehicles will have at least one recall issued against them due to the massive number of parts that go into building them. Not to mention the complexity of getting all of them to work happily together.
I'll put in more detail.
The years being compared are 2002 and 2003. For the first half of 2002, the CR-V was the only SUV on the Honda lot (aside from the waste of space Passport). The Element and Pilot did not exist and therefore did not take any CR-V sales.
Pent up demand happens with most redesigned models. For the first few months, sales are abnormally high. People wait to buy the vehicle until the new design is released. Because the CR-V was released in November, there was still considerable pend up demand in the months of January through March.
In the beginning of 2003, there was no pent up demand. The vehicle had been out for a full year. Also, 2003 sales are hampered by the popularity of the Pilot and Element, both of which compete on the same sales floor. So, the difference in sales is not so much due to a falling off in demand, it's a result of the abnormally high sales we saw last year.
I'm glad to see you are happy with your Escape, but your reasoning on the sales figures doesn't hold water with me.
If the Escape's sales are strong because it is a blast to drive, well equipped, etc. then why did they not sell more units last year? Last year, the CR-V had the higher sales volume. The only major change between 2002 and 2003 is the extra incentives that Ford is offering. Ford is paying people to buy them so they can retain market share and keep union labors busy (Ford has too much production). Meanwhile demand for the CR-V is strong enough that dealers are selling them at about $500 below MSRP.
The fact that Ford has 4-5 times as many dealerhips might also have something to do with the numbers.
Baggs - Ditto. Dunno why people are so fixated on recalls. The only difference between a recall and an ordinary fix is who requests the change. If it in some way relates to the safety of the vehicle, it's a recall and will be issued by the NHTSA. If not, it will most likely be issued as a TSB by the manufacturer. A faulty wire in the heating system is a standard fix. A faulty wire in the brakes is a recall.
TSB's aren't a way to measure quality either (I know you didn't say so above) but they unfortunately do hold a lot of weight with many people too. Go read the Focus boards for a while. All you hear about is what a piece of junk it is, because of recalls and TSB's mainly, despite the fact that most of the owners (of MY's 2002 & 2003) are completely satisfied with their copies. It's past, checkered as it is, is behind us.
Believe it or not, the Civic actually has way more TSB's issued for it than the Focus. All years included.
My Escape averages 21mpg in normal everyday driving. (4x2 v6 auto)
Pretty close the the numbers your getting on the CRV.
What point were you trying to make?
Sales. Varmit, if you say the only reason CRV sales are declining is because of the Pilot and Element, then why is the Ford Explorer still the sales leader in its segment AND why is the Escape still holding its strong sales streak? And, why is the Expedition still selling well? In the Motor Trend article I was quoting, Ford had at least 4 vehicles that had actually gained market share. Honda, 2. Once again the incentive card is drawn by the Honda fans. We have been through this over and over again. Ever thought just maybe the Escape is more attractive to more buyers?
I live in the NW and visit the Cascade mountains to skii and sled. My Escape does great in the snow and ice, never slipped or have gotten stuck. I have had snow my Escape pretty well burried in the snow a few times and it plowed right along. Another thing is power. Honda fans love to think the 4cyl in the CRv is just as powerful as the V6 in the Escape, its not. The Escape has the torque/power to pull/push the weight of the vehicle with confidence through snow. This winter you will see a huge difference...
Pretty lame conspiracy theory you're trying on there...
Steve, Host
I hope no one thought I was claiming the CRV had as strong an engine as an escape. It runs 160 hp vs 201 for the Escape. Nevertheless, I have driven both and they are very similar in terms of acceleration.
RE:MPG. HMMM, well. All I can say is you are amazingly fortunate in getting those MPG figures, especially on the 4WD. Consumer Reports showed about a 4MPG advantage with the CR-V, which is about correct based on my 4X2 rental car, but then you never know about rentals. Other comparisons reports have been similar.
I agree with the forum host. There is a thread about CR-V problems and solutions, so people can say what they want there. I don't see a conspiracy here.
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Esc/Trib, love the styling, way more than the CRV, even the new design, much more rugged looking than the CRV with more power, though the CRV is ample for my needs. All the Ford dealerships near me have bad reps, will use every under handed trick in the book.
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CRV, Honda reliability at it's finest, no recalls for my model and year. Maint. is a snap for do-it-yourselfers like me. Roomier than the Esc/Trib, though not a big issue. Fits my needs perfectly. Local dealers have better reps, not perfect, but better than Fords. They can be a pain though if you're looking for a popular vehicle like the Pilot (MSRP +market adjustment).
It is a nice feature to have and I have used it several times in the snow, sand, and mud. It does make a difference. Just make sure your wife does not turn it "On" when driving on dry pavement. Bad things will happen because there is no center differential to stop binding.
I too have reported around 21 mpg for mixed driving. It's not all that uncommon judging by what others have reported here and on other Escape forums.
However, now that my lead foot wife is driving it all the time we're averaging a little less than 20 mpg. It all depends on the driver.
Honda is looking at raising sales goals in the US. Ford is lowering goals in the third and fourth quarter.
Honda is gaining market share, while Ford is losing it.
For the month of August, Ford sales dropped by about 14%, while Honda sales rose 11.2%.
The last incentives announcements showed Ford averaging about $3,800 per vehicle in incentives. Honda was sending only $800 per vehicle. Ford is even giving incentives on brand new vehicles like the F-150. When Honda brings out a new vehicle, people are willing to pay a premium above MSRP, but Ford has to pay the customers and dealers to take their brand new cars!
You want to know what is driving strong sales of the Escape?
1. I've already told you several times, but here is it once more for posterity: Incentives. I mean, sure, the Escape is a popular vehicle, but sales figures wouldn't be the same if Ford didn't subsidize sales with rebates and financing deals. Compare last year's sales with this years. This year they are selling more and this year the incentives are higher. As Baggs confirmed for us a few days ago, incentives on the 2003 model Escape were raised another $500 in August to a total of $2,000 available to anyone (not counting employee buying plans and other discounts).
2. As mentioned above, there's the fact that Ford has well over 4,000 dealerships to promote the Escape and provide competitive options for customer. Meanwhile Honda has about 900. If you don't think that matters compare Tribute sales with those of the Escape. Mazda has about 800 dealerships, selling essentially the same product, with similar deals.
3. Guess what the month of August was? It was the last full month for fleet buyers to order 2004 Escapes with the special $500 early bird discount. (BTW, I was unable to find any Honda vehicle listed with a fleet incentive.) As we've discussed before, Ford relies on fleet sales for about 30% of their total sales, while Honda's fleet market is only 1.4%.
So, there's your answer, incentives, market saturation, and fleet sales.
One last item for you, buddy. As much as you like to advise, "get out on the web...", I'm amazed at how many times we've had to direct you to the CR-V problems board. You can't even navigate here at Edmunds? Just for kicks why don't you go find us those posts from the guy reporting 10 mpg in his Escape.
It's actually only about 3800 but who's counting? You might be quoting a number that includes truck-only dealers. They don't sell Escape's off of those lots.
"Guess what the month of August was? It was the last full month for fleet buyers to order 2004 Escapes with the special $500 early bird discount."
That's great and all, but if history tells us anything it's that Escape sales will start to increase in the next few months. Winter is coming.
"As we've discussed before, Ford relies on fleet sales for about 30% of their total sales, while Honda's fleet market is only 1.4%."
When Honda owns Hertz and part of another worldwide rental company we can start comparing apples to apples. A sale is a sale. How many Civics do you think were bought by younger folk for the sole purpose of turning it into a Corvette or Mustang killer? If those people could afford a Corvette or Mustang I'm sure they'd buy them instead of a Civic.
Most of those rental/fleet vehicles will eventually end up in someone's garage anyway. A lot of people buy used cars for whatever reason too.
I read an article back in June that stated they will wait a month or two to announce any on it so they can judge demand (a Ford exec stated this). The competition in that class is very very fierce so incentives are inevitable.
I've seen a few 2004's in person while perusing dealer lots. They really did a nice job with them and I'm sure they'll be a hit.
A couple of points: Stevedebi, the Escape is actually a car based SUV, the only car-based SUV in the Ford SUV lineup.
Varmint - you make many good points, here are a couple of counterpoints.
With regard to competition in the showroom, I still maintain that Ford has equal if not more competition in the showroom for the Escape. I speak from experience - the dealer asked me if I didn't want an Explorer for about the same money... No, I didn't want an Explorer... In addition, Ford has the Sport Trac, and Explorer Sport (2 door). So in reality Ford has 4 SUVs in this range compared to Honda with 3.
I'm sure that incentives do play a part in Escape's success this year, but they must have had some level of incentive last year? I'm not sure that is the whole story. Perhaps it's because they added a Limited in 2003, an XLT Appearance Package in 2003(?) (my second choice to the Limited, but unfortunately no heated seats option). My point is that they have a broad lineup from XLS, XLT (with two different exterior appearance packages - No Boundaries (rugged) and XLT Appearance Pkg, as well as Limited (also with a Limited comfort pkg). That's 5 different exterior looks that you can get on Escape.
I can't comment on Escape fleet sales or timing of sales - don't know anything about that, but it's not surprising that a domestic automaker will have higher fleet sales than an import.
Fully agree that the number of dealers will have an impact on overall sales and Ford has an advantage there. But why do you hold that against them, seems like a good business advantage.
A healthy debate overall and I think the point has been made that we can all be happy with our respective choices. For me the choice was clear - power plus good looks plus great luxury comforts made Escape Limited the clear choice.
Which car is the Escape based on? The Focus?
In any case I think my point is still valid - most people associate Fords with trucks, and the Escape LOOKS like a truck (enough that it fooled me)...