I don't know how I'm looking at this the wrong. I was just making the point that the Honda is safer. How much? I don't know if you can quantify it, but all the features, along with the ratings, indicate it is the safer of the two. That doesn't mean the Escape is unsafe. It just isn't AS safe. Some people rank safety higher than other things. I am one of those people. Some people don't. I don't have a problem with that.
I do agree that choice is nice sometimes, but when it came time for me to make a purchase (I am getting my CR-V at month's end), one of the things that drew me to Honda was the list of standard features. I liked the Liberty as well, but the list of options was near endless. I looked at the Escapes more than any other vehicle, but I couldn't find one w/airbags, and all of the Limiteds had black leather, which was the one color my wife didn't want. It was impossible to nail down what I wanted, since the Jeep and Ford dealers weren't going to have EXACTLY what I anyway. I'm sure they could find something close, but with the Honda, I was going to get everything I wanted/needed because every option I wanted was on the SE.
Furthermore, I agree that perhaps rollovers are being exploited by the media, as is the case with almost everything with the media, but when it comes to safety, I feel much better knowing the features are there. I obviously hope I never have to use them, but like health or life insurance, these sorts of things are there when things go bad.
As to not being able to find an Escape with side and curtain airbags, I seriously can't. I just checked my Ford dealers web site again: nada. Like you pointed out, these are options, and this isn't an option people in my particular area of the country want. I don't understand it, but then again, some people rank horsepower over safety. Not necessarily a bad thing, if you are willing to make that your priority, I suppose, but I am not one of those people.
If you are driving fast enough, and you go down a ditch steep enough, or yank the wheel fast enough, you'll tip over regardless of what preventive measures have been put in place.
I'll give you the ditch but not yanking the wheel. Watch this video (for year 2002 on the timeline if the link doesn't work exactly). Volvo's RSC, which you know is installed in all Ford SUVs sans the Escape, does keep you out of a rollover when the wheel is yanked too hard. It's a pretty impressive system. Here's a link to Ford's videos and explanation of the system.
I understand what you are trying to say but I don't want people getting confused with the two types of systems that are out there now. Yes VSC and other stability control systems will help keep you on your intended path but a vehicle can be put into a roll situation without a skid. In those instances VSC is worthless because it will never even be activated. Running up on a "Jersey barrier" is one that comes to mind. Those things are designed to throw you back onto the road but I've seen several SUVs on their roofs (on the news from the chopper cam over the PA Turnpike) after riding up on one at a highway speeds. RSC would definitely be activated in that situation whereas VSC most likely would not.
However, the CR-V has something that helps prevent rollovers.
I don't agree 100% with that. VSC will only keep you on your intended path and help prevent a spin, or sideways slide. If the conditions are right (severely banked road, excessive speed, etc.) it's still going to roll especially if the first action causes an immediate tip/roll. Now if the skid/slide/spin VSC helped keep you out of would have somehow led to a rollover, then yes, it does help prevent skids/slides/spins that can lead to rollovers.
You make some excellent points, but you are also looking at this the wrong way. Perhaps Ford wanted to give users more choices with the Escape/Tribute. By that I mean that you can get a 4cyl or a V6, side airbags or no side airbags, AWD or FWD, etc.
While I agree that VSA does help, it also costs money. Why shouldn't the consumer have that choice? I am a member of a number of Escape/Tribute forums and I have never, not once, heard of a user complaining of tipping or rolling over. I think that the media tends to over hype how dangerous SUV's can be. I feel more safe (and mine does have side curtain airbags) in my Tribute than any car I have ever owned.
There is talk on other message boards of Ford adding the rollover system (which was developed by Volvo I believe) to future Escape's. I doubt it will be standard, but I had no problem finding a Tribute with side airbags when I purchased.
The onyl way to get manual on the Escape is to go with FWD 4 cylinder vehicle. The Ford/Mazda 4 cylinder is way underpowered for the vehicle. Once the Escape FWD 4 cyl manual is loaded up to the CR-V EX level (A/c, 6 disk indash changer, sunroof, 4 wheel disk brakes with ABS, VSC, Steering wheel controls for the radio, Alloy wheels) it outprices CR-V EX AWD even with rebates included, and still no AWD, no steering wheel controls for the radio. The CR-V EX AWD 4 cyl with manual out accelerates Escape V6 auto, comes with all the options a person like me wants for the price a person like me was willing to pay.
It was impossible to nail down what I wanted, since the Jeep and Ford dealers weren't going to have EXACTLY what I anyway
Why can't you ORDER exactly what you want? I believe it is a case with Honda, when you have to choice between 2-3 "trims", with useless options like "DVD". But with Ford you can build your own unique trim (there are limitations of course), and don't have to pay for things you don't need.
I think you've been misinformed or misunderstand how VSA works. On this issue, I agree with much of what Baggs wrote.
"I don't agree 100% with that. VSC will only keep you on your intended path and help prevent a spin, or sideways slide. If the conditions are right (severely banked road, excessive speed, etc.) it's still going to roll especially if the first action causes an immediate tip/roll. Now if the skid/slide/spin VSC helped keep you out of would have somehow led to a rollover, then yes, it does help prevent skids/slides/spins that can lead to rollovers." - Baggs32
In essence, VSA will assist in keeping the vehicle pointed in the direction where the steering wheel is turned. So, if the driver has the wheel turned straight, but the car is moving in a turn, VSA will kick in. It compares driver input with what is actually happening. Essentially, the wheels have to be losing grip for VSA to engage.
What does that mean for roll-overs?
If the CR-V were losing grip during the NHTSA tests, then VSA would engage. But I doubt that is the case. If the CR-V were losing grip during an aggressive turn, it would begin understeering (plowing). As long as the tires are plowing, there is very little risk of the kind of roll-over this test is designed to measure. It is unlikely that a vehicle sliding in a mostly forward direction is going to flip without encountering an object to "trip" it (like a curb).
Now, when we talk about the most common type of roll-over (when the vehicle is tripped), VSA becomes more of an advantage. By keeping the vehicle pointed in the direction where the driver wants to go, it helps prevent situations where the diver loses it and slides into a curb, rock, or soft shoulder on the side of the road. That is the big advantage for VSA.
As an aside, I have never seen a report suggesting that Honda's VSA is aggressive, as you've described it. Toyota's system is aggressive. So much so, enthusiast magazines hate it. They can't have much fun in cars like the new GS330 because the electronic nanny prevents them from doing anything fun. On the flip side, the same magazines have applauded VSA in several Acuras (TL Type S and TSX) because it is less intrusive, only engaging when it's really needed. I have not read anything regarding its use in the CR-V. Probably because CR-V's aren't driven like that.
I think Dromedarius is mistaken about the overall size of the tires, as well. While both use 16" rims, the tires on each model determine the overall diameter of the wheel.
"I think Dromedarius is mistaken about the overall size of the tires, as well. While both use 16" rims, the tires on each model determine the overall diameter of the wheel."
Well, the 2005's wheels certainly look bigger. They fill up more of the wheel well.
I would add something here about the comparison in the "tip over" test, but I don't think it would make any difference, and I think the facts speak for themselves... and as a CR-V owner, I feel no need to "spin" anything (not even my wheels)!
I may have outdated numbers for the Escape, but at one time it was wearing P235/70R16's. If that's still the case, the overall height of that tire would be 28.95".
The 2005 CR-Vs wear P215/65R16 which come to 27.0" tall.
varmint, you are probably right about the tires. Both vehicles sport 16" rims, but that doesn't mean they necessarily have the same size tires. However, in the aspect of how VSA works, I don't believe I've been misinformed. I stated on several occasions that it senses the difference between the steering wheel and the actual heading of the vehicle. It then kicks in to correct that issue. THAT is what prevents rollovers in SOME instances. Of course there are all sorts of instances where rollovers can occur, but some of them are lessened by this approach.
As to "ordering" a vehicle to specs, I've been told by MANY dealers that they don't order anymore. They will go out and find a vehicle which is similiar to your tastes, or matches it if possible, but ordering is nearly a thing of the past. I do know of someone who ordered a vehicle and it took seven months to get it. That's why the dealers, at least around here, don't bother much with it anymore.
Finally, when I spoke of the Honda being an aggressive system, I believe I characterized it correctly. By aggressive, I mean it senses a problem and reacts to correct the problem. Passive safety is something which reacts only after the fact, such as an airbag. In reacting, every system would have to be deemed passive to some degree, and the Honda certainly isn't the most aggressive vehicle, since it doesn't sport full-time all-wheel drive, but the systems it does have in place, such as VSA and RealTime 4wd are designed to react to keep the airbags from ever being deployed.
It wasn't about blaming Ford...I liked the gold Escape Limited with the ivory interior and the side curtain airbags. I talked to several dealers who weren't real enthusiastic about getting me one. (Why the one particular dealer continues to get ALL black leather interiors blows my mind.) It didn't really matter, because I was likely going with the Honda anyway. It was only ONE of the reasons I went with the CR-V.
This line of conversation only started because one poster mentioned how much they disliked how Honda included most of the options in the vehicle, thereby raising the price base. I said I liked it because I didn't have to worry about trying to track down the exact vehicle I wanted. Regardless, I sincerely doubt they "custom" built one for you, especially in one month. There's a 98% chance they were able to find the one you got EXACTLY what you wanted because another dealer had it in stock. You got lucky. Congratulations.
P235/70-R16 is the correct tire size for all styles of 16" OEM wheels on the Escape.
Varmint, after seeing MY05 CR-Vs in person it looks like Honda only increased the wheel size while the overall diameter of the wheel/tire stayed the same. Is that true or did the entire diameter of the wheel/tire combo increase? I haven't seen them side by side but the difference can't be all that great.
Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. With respect to the VSA system, I think you'll find that most people on these boards use different terms to describe safety systems. You'll read things like "proactive" and "dynamic" rather than "aggressive". But I get your point.
You are correct. The difference is not all that great. I can't recall the exact numbers, but I think the diameter changed +0.7" with the change in rims.
"Regardless, I sincerely doubt they "custom" built one for you, especially in one month. There's a 98% chance they were able to find the one you got EXACTLY what you wanted because another dealer had it in stock. You got lucky. Congratulations."
I'm extremely lucky then, as I got really-really custom built Windstar in one month as well, 3 years ago. I'm expecting replies like "but they make it in Ontario, Canada"... :-)
I'd be interested to know what you're paying in relation to MSRP. ANYTHING is possible if you are willing to pay enough. However, being in the business world, I know how things work, and when your company has trouble moving vehicles and your credit is classified as "junk", the last thing you want to do is make specially made vehicles to customer order when you have thousands and thousands of that vehicle sitting all over the country. It just doesn't make business sense to manufacture another vehicle when one is already sitting out there somewhere.
Also, where you buy is very important. If you have a large network of dealers in your area, they are more likely to get you what you want based on volume. I don't have that luxury. I only paid invoice on my CR-V, which I was pretty happy about, considering the next closest dealer is three hours away, and Honda just had their biggest month in their history in April. Furthermore, the dealer I went through doesn't even have an SE on the lot; the one I got is only the second gold one they've received this month, and both were purchased weeks before they arrived.
Ford, on the other hand, does have two large dealers in my area, but they aren't friendly with one another, and neither was interested in doing a whole lot for me. Again, they each have an overbundance of vehicles, and they seem more interested in moving the ones they have on the lot, rather than searching all over kingdom-come to find a specific vehicle. With the incentives they have going on right now, I guess I don't really blame them, since they aren't making a whole lot of money on Fords right now. Plus, I live in a pickup and large SUV market, both of which are much more profitable than the small SUV market. Regardless, since you seem to be able to get what you want in under a month, I'd be interested in knowing how many dealers you have in your area, and what your paying.
I just don't buy that Ford is specifically making a vehicle for you unless
A) The vehicle already exists; and/or You're paying top price
"the last thing you want to do is make specially made vehicles to customer order when you have thousands and thousands of that vehicle sitting all over the country. It just doesn't make business sense to manufacture another vehicle when one is already sitting out there somewhere."
Well, you are missing one thing that assembly line rolls without interruption. Time to time, it may slow down but rolls. Why not convert one of the units already on assembly line to customer specs. This way, you may quarantee to sell one unit rather than loosing sales for two units. Loosing a customer with money in his pocket is plain dumb.
"Why not convert one of the units already on assembly line to customer specs. This way, you may quarantee to sell one unit rather than losing sales for two units."
The US automakers are not that flexible. If you order a car to specifications, they have to plan for that particular car. They cannot modify a vehicle while it is on the assembly line.
At least that is my understanding. Can someone from the automotive assembly world comment?
What does it really matter? You got the CRV you wanted with the features you were looking for. He got the Escape that he wanted with the exact specifications. I had no problems finding an Escape/Tribute in my area with the EXACT features and color that I wanted. I had no problem finding CRV SE's either, but local dealers were not willing to budge on price (about 1K over invoice) and acted like they did not want my business (sounds like your Ford experience).
I know that I saved about 3K by going with the Tribute vs the CRV thanks to incentives (similarly equipped, top of the line models). I realize that the CRV will hold its value a little better, but most likely not by 3K. I tend to sell my vehicles every four years or so. I also liked the better bumper to bumper warranty that the Tribute had over the CRV. At the end of the day I will have a solid SUV that will be completely covered for the time that I own it (unless I decide to keep it longer).
As long as we get what we want, that's all that matters. The only reason this discussion got sidetracked was because ottawan was trying to say I could get what I want, when I want. I couldn't in my area. I tried to line it up and it just wasn't happening. Again, I was leaning heavily toward the CR-V anyway, but I wanted to have to make a decision. The Ford dealers in my area didn't give me that option.
"That's not about "modifications" but about assembling/equipping it with STANDART options that I want. "
But that is just the point. They put all the "standard" options on all cars. Since that didn't satisfy you, I presume you are wanting to add options. These options are pre-planned for every vehicle that enters the assembly line, before it begins construction.
The original statement asked why Ford couldn't just add on what one wanted to a car already on the assembly line.
"not flexible? last time we bought a 'foreign', you had a choice of colors. pick your top 3 and we will let you know when we get one."
Yup, especially Hondas, which seem to go in cycles of being "hot" and thus hard to find. I had to wait for my 2003 CR-V. But Honda manages to keep their cars reasonable in price by limiting options. The Yen has soared in value vs. the US dollar in recent years, but the car prices haven't gone up a corresponding amount for Honda. Thus Honda puts out pre-set options for it's trim levels. The dealers can add stuff, but not the factory.
I was actually thinking of product cycle when I wrote about flexibility. Japanese vendors seem to go on a 5 year cycle, whereas the Big Three go on a 10 year cycle. But I think I shouldn't have mentioned US manufacturors in my statement. I doubt that any auto maker would modify a car once it gets on the assembly line.
I would be truthful about my 01 Ford Escape XLT V6 4WD. I now have about 55,000 miles and had my first issue. Last week on the way to work I happened to have the radio off. I then began to notice a slight "clunking" sound coming from my frontend suspension area. I got on the internet and started to research about this and only found a few posts in other chats around the net about any sort of suspension issues. Anyhooo... Took it into the dealer. Mind you, my vehicle is out of warranty and I have no extended. I have to admit I was not feeling warm and fuzzy about this. I even crawled under my vehicle and could find nothing loose. The tech came back and said my front sway bar was loose and some parts had worn. I was ready for the huge bill and bad news.. Came to $125!! Boy was I a happy camper. I have to admit my vehicle even feels better when driving it now.. I know I preach and preach about how reliable Fords really are, I am even known here at Edmunds as a Ford representative. Even so, I cannot complain, $125 for 55,000 miles not too shabby in my book. Plus, I use my SUV as an SUV not a pure gorcery getter. I take it offroad, pull, haul, tow with it.... Cheers.....
I'm glad you're having a good experience with your Ford Escape, in terms of reliability. I'm not quite sure what it has to do with the Honda CR-V vs. Ford Escape thread, since no one has debated the reliability of CR-Vs (or any Honda) TMK, and I'm sure you could have posted this in the Problems/Solutions for Escapes thread, but I can see where 55,000 miles of trouble free driving can be a big deal for a Ford owner. I hope you continue to have no troubles with your Escape!
i've stayed out of this thread, but my sister in law drove honda's for years including a crv. she told me they start having problems about 50k. now she drives lexus. my wife drives an escape, no problems after 15 months, other than the tires are noisy. one thing that is great about the escape is the huge rear bumper, is that it takes the hits. cheap repairs.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
We have both, 2005 CR-V EX manual, and a 2005 Escape XLT V6. Both are very new so there are no quality issues, yet. The CR-V is slower off the line, but then comes alive after 2500 rpm, Escape on the other hand, is fast off the line, but then loses breath after 3000 rpm. But this is the nature of 4 cyl advanced Honda engine (i-VTEC) vs. 6 cyl Ford's ancient Duratec V6 (pushrod??)
CR-V can handle corners better than Escape.
Escape has much bigger sunroof.
CR-V has steering wheel radio controls and VSC standard.
Escape has power driver's seat, but no memory.
CR-V comes with curtain side airbags standard, the Escape she got does not have them.
Both have 6 disk in-dash changer, but CR-V can also play cassettes, and has built in XM sattelite radio controls (receiver/antenna sold separatley).
CR-V gets about 22 mpg city, 25 mpg highway (doing 70-80 mph for 400 miles), Escape gets 22 mpg highway, about 19 city.
While it is not a problem, when she brought the Escape home, I poped the hood and found a screw just sitting on top of the air cleaner housing. Not sure where it came from. Might have been an "extra" part.
I have a Japanese made CR-V, which is all Japanese, while the "US" built Escape was designed by Mazda, built by UAW workers from Mexican parts. Every other part in the Escape is from Mexico.
CR-V cost ≈ $21,000, similarly equipped V6 Escape with auto (no manual with 4WD) was ≈ $25,000 with employee discount and rebates (≈ $30,000 MSRP).
I pay $360/month for 60 months with no money down. She pays $350/month 36 month lease (10,500 miles/year), 55% residual, with $1000 down and employee discount.
30k+ msrp on escape is a limited? seems like it would have upgraded leather, heated seats, mach stereo, reclining read seats(since you didn't mentions kids, maybe you don't know about that).
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Sounds like the dealer got a thick profit on you guys. Mine is XLT w/Sunroof + Side airbags + AWD + side step bars + roof rack + privacy windows and it was $22.5K after rebate, including TTL.
"CR-V can handle corners better than Escape." If cornering was issue, she should have opted for Tribute. Mazda calls Tribute "Miata of SUVs" due to advanced suspension components.
"CR-V gets about 22 mpg city, 25 mpg highway (doing 70-80 mph for 400 miles), Escape gets 22 mpg highway, about 19 city."
The trip I just came from gave me 23.5 mpg 3 people, 70 mph, constant AC for 380 miles, all highway. The last trip I got during April, 25.5 mpg, 1 person, 70 mph, no AC. My 05 trib gets 19.5 miles in city, no AC, 20 miles round trip commute.
""CR-V gets about 22 mpg city, 25 mpg highway (doing 70-80 mph for 400 miles), Escape gets 22 mpg highway, about 19 city."
The trip I just came from gave me 23.5 mpg 3 people, 70 mph, constant AC for 380 miles, all highway. The last trip I got during April, 25.5 mpg, 1 person, 70 mph, no AC. My 05 trib gets 19.5 miles in city, no AC, 20 miles round trip commute. "
Just for comparisons, at a steady state 70 MPH, I will get just under 28 MPG from my 2003 CR-V, fully loaded. The Tribune/Escape twins have the V6, which provides some advantages over the I4 of the CR-V, particularly in towing and initial acceleration. However, that I4 is good for MPG, and is vastly better than the Ford/Mazda base I4. Plus (I'm sure you will all correct me if I am wrong), you can't get the I4 except on the base model Escape? So you can't get the I4 MPG and all of the convenience features found in the CR-V EX/SE.
i knew the sticker prices on the '05's went up, but must have been a bunch. our '04 limited with all options except towing package listed for 28,5. is that canadian msrp?
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Sounds like the dealer got a thick profit on you guys. Mine is XLT w/Sunroof + Side airbags + AWD + side step bars + roof rack + privacy windows and it was $22.5K after rebate, including TTL.
I didn't say we paid $30K, I said it had an MSRP of around $30K. We paid much less with rebates and employee pricing discount. But it was still more than we paid for the CR-V, plus we got 2.9% APR CR-V.
I purchased a new 2005 Mazda Tribute S (V6, AWD, leather, heated seats, 6 disc changer with Sirius Sat radio controls, sunroof, side impact airbags, etc) for 21,800. My Tribute has a longer warranty than the Escape and CRV and my dealer has a free loaner program.
I thoroughly test drove both the CRV and Tribute and the Tribute handled better than the CRV. The Tribute was slightly quicker than the CRV off the line, and had noticeably more power around 50-70mph. The Tribute can also tow more than the CRV (comes in handy with four people and a jet ski).
A few things that I loved about the CRV (SE) over the Tribute S was the radio controls, and the VSC, better gas mileage.
A few things I disliked was the position of the shifter, the rear mounted spare tire, the fact that the rear door swung to the curb vs. away from the curb, lack of power vs the Tribute. CRV SE cost thousands more. I also thought the Escape/Tribute looked a little more rugged.
Each vehicle has its advantages and disadvantages.
"Fords ancient Duratec V6" What? This is a 24Valve dual overhead cam engine, far from being ancient and "low tech" as you think. In my region the CRV is more expensive than an Escape or Tribute. In the past I have posted prices, dealerships and VIN#''s of both the CRV's and Escapes/Tributes to prove this. Which one is the lease? CRV or Escape? Mexican parts? on Escape, I'm sure there are some. At least the Escape is mostly made here in the U.S. by a U.S. worker, paying U.S. taxes, supporting the U.S. economy and future....
understand where people are getting these huge costs on the Escapes? I browse the paper on Friday and Saturdays when the ads come out for vehicles. I constantly see Escape XLT 4WD V6's for about 19K. This isn't just one or two its up to 10! So, you get a choice of colors. As for Honda dealers, they usually offer 1 or 2, very few color choices. 30K for an Escape Limited!! This is robbery. If you do your research the Escape limited doesn't even MSRP out at 30K, its more like 28K tops. I see LImiteds advertised for 23K. These are top of the line Escapes with every option. They are advertised in the ads from multiple dealeships with multiple units available to choose from. Once again, this is my region. If anyone is interested I can e-mail you prices, dealership names and phone numbers and VIN#'s. Its common knowlege that Honda products cost more upfront, so thier resale value better be higher.....
everyone knows it. dont think i am complaining on "AMERICAN vehicles" i own a Chevy and a Toyota. i know a lot about the USELESS ford taurus, escort and yes i almost forgot the escape you are bragging about, SNOWMAN :P hey i have some friends who have Fords but had problems with them and went for GM or the imports. and also for your information ford pickups and suvs(that includes Lincoln and Mercury) have had the problem with their cruise control system, catching fire, more than 200 reports in the last year. and yes also the Crown Victoria triplets. so quit bragging about the useless fords dude.
Comments
I do agree that choice is nice sometimes, but when it came time for me to make a purchase (I am getting my CR-V at month's end), one of the things that drew me to Honda was the list of standard features. I liked the Liberty as well, but the list of options was near endless. I looked at the Escapes more than any other vehicle, but I couldn't find one w/airbags, and all of the Limiteds had black leather, which was the one color my wife didn't want. It was impossible to nail down what I wanted, since the Jeep and Ford dealers weren't going to have EXACTLY what I anyway. I'm sure they could find something close, but with the Honda, I was going to get everything I wanted/needed because every option I wanted was on the SE.
Furthermore, I agree that perhaps rollovers are being exploited by the media, as is the case with almost everything with the media, but when it comes to safety, I feel much better knowing the features are there. I obviously hope I never have to use them, but like health or life insurance, these sorts of things are there when things go bad.
As to not being able to find an Escape with side and curtain airbags, I seriously can't. I just checked my Ford dealers web site again: nada. Like you pointed out, these are options, and this isn't an option people in my particular area of the country want. I don't understand it, but then again, some people rank horsepower over safety. Not necessarily a bad thing, if you are willing to make that your priority, I suppose, but I am not one of those people.
I'll give you the ditch but not yanking the wheel. Watch this video (for year 2002 on the timeline if the link doesn't work exactly). Volvo's RSC, which you know is installed in all Ford SUVs sans the Escape, does keep you out of a rollover when the wheel is yanked too hard. It's a pretty impressive system. Here's a link to Ford's videos and explanation of the system.
I understand what you are trying to say but I don't want people getting confused with the two types of systems that are out there now. Yes VSC and other stability control systems will help keep you on your intended path but a vehicle can be put into a roll situation without a skid. In those instances VSC is worthless because it will never even be activated. Running up on a "Jersey barrier" is one that comes to mind. Those things are designed to throw you back onto the road but I've seen several SUVs on their roofs (on the news from the chopper cam over the PA Turnpike) after riding up on one at a highway speeds. RSC would definitely be activated in that situation whereas VSC most likely would not.
However, the CR-V has something that helps prevent rollovers.
I don't agree 100% with that. VSC will only keep you on your intended path and help prevent a spin, or sideways slide. If the conditions are right (severely banked road, excessive speed, etc.) it's still going to roll especially if the first action causes an immediate tip/roll. Now if the skid/slide/spin VSC helped keep you out of would have somehow led to a rollover, then yes, it does help prevent skids/slides/spins that can lead to rollovers.
Now I'm spinning.
While I agree that VSA does help, it also costs money. Why shouldn't the consumer have that choice? I am a member of a number of Escape/Tribute forums and I have never, not once, heard of a user complaining of tipping or rolling over. I think that the media tends to over hype how dangerous SUV's can be. I feel more safe (and mine does have side curtain airbags) in my Tribute than any car I have ever owned.
There is talk on other message boards of Ford adding the rollover system (which was developed by Volvo I believe) to future Escape's. I doubt it will be standard, but I had no problem finding a Tribute with side airbags when I purchased.
The onyl way to get manual on the Escape is to go with FWD 4 cylinder vehicle. The Ford/Mazda 4 cylinder is way underpowered for the vehicle. Once the Escape FWD 4 cyl manual is loaded up to the CR-V EX level (A/c, 6 disk indash changer, sunroof, 4 wheel disk brakes with ABS, VSC, Steering wheel controls for the radio, Alloy wheels) it outprices CR-V EX AWD even with rebates included, and still no AWD, no steering wheel controls for the radio. The CR-V EX AWD 4 cyl with manual out accelerates Escape V6 auto, comes with all the options a person like me wants for the price a person like me was willing to pay.
Why can't you ORDER exactly what you want?
I believe it is a case with Honda, when you have to choice between 2-3 "trims", with useless options like "DVD".
But with Ford you can build your own unique trim (there are limitations of course), and don't have to pay for things you don't need.
"I don't agree 100% with that. VSC will only keep you on your intended path and help prevent a spin, or sideways slide. If the conditions are right (severely banked road, excessive speed, etc.) it's still going to roll especially if the first action causes an immediate tip/roll. Now if the skid/slide/spin VSC helped keep you out of would have somehow led to a rollover, then yes, it does help prevent skids/slides/spins that can lead to rollovers." - Baggs32
In essence, VSA will assist in keeping the vehicle pointed in the direction where the steering wheel is turned. So, if the driver has the wheel turned straight, but the car is moving in a turn, VSA will kick in. It compares driver input with what is actually happening. Essentially, the wheels have to be losing grip for VSA to engage.
What does that mean for roll-overs?
If the CR-V were losing grip during the NHTSA tests, then VSA would engage. But I doubt that is the case. If the CR-V were losing grip during an aggressive turn, it would begin understeering (plowing). As long as the tires are plowing, there is very little risk of the kind of roll-over this test is designed to measure. It is unlikely that a vehicle sliding in a mostly forward direction is going to flip without encountering an object to "trip" it (like a curb).
Now, when we talk about the most common type of roll-over (when the vehicle is tripped), VSA becomes more of an advantage. By keeping the vehicle pointed in the direction where the driver wants to go, it helps prevent situations where the diver loses it and slides into a curb, rock, or soft shoulder on the side of the road. That is the big advantage for VSA.
As an aside, I have never seen a report suggesting that Honda's VSA is aggressive, as you've described it. Toyota's system is aggressive. So much so, enthusiast magazines hate it. They can't have much fun in cars like the new GS330 because the electronic nanny prevents them from doing anything fun. On the flip side, the same magazines have applauded VSA in several Acuras (TL Type S and TSX) because it is less intrusive, only engaging when it's really needed. I have not read anything regarding its use in the CR-V. Probably because CR-V's aren't driven like that.
I think Dromedarius is mistaken about the overall size of the tires, as well. While both use 16" rims, the tires on each model determine the overall diameter of the wheel.
Well, the 2005's wheels certainly look bigger. They fill up more of the wheel well.
I would add something here about the comparison in the "tip over" test, but I don't think it would make any difference, and I think the facts speak for themselves... and as a CR-V owner, I feel no need to "spin" anything (not even my wheels)!
The 2005 CR-Vs wear P215/65R16 which come to 27.0" tall.
As to "ordering" a vehicle to specs, I've been told by MANY dealers that they don't order anymore. They will go out and find a vehicle which is similiar to your tastes, or matches it if possible, but ordering is nearly a thing of the past. I do know of someone who ordered a vehicle and it took seven months to get it. That's why the dealers, at least around here, don't bother much with it anymore.
Finally, when I spoke of the Honda being an aggressive system, I believe I characterized it correctly. By aggressive, I mean it senses a problem and reacts to correct the problem. Passive safety is something which reacts only after the fact, such as an airbag. In reacting, every system would have to be deemed passive to some degree, and the Honda certainly isn't the most aggressive vehicle, since it doesn't sport full-time all-wheel drive, but the systems it does have in place, such as VSA and RealTime 4wd are designed to react to keep the airbags from ever being deployed.
Don't blame Ford then, but blame your luck insteed :-)
I got my custom build (and imported, let me note) Escape in one month. Exactly as promised.
This line of conversation only started because one poster mentioned how much they disliked how Honda included most of the options in the vehicle, thereby raising the price base. I said I liked it because I didn't have to worry about trying to track down the exact vehicle I wanted. Regardless, I sincerely doubt they "custom" built one for you, especially in one month. There's a 98% chance they were able to find the one you got EXACTLY what you wanted because another dealer had it in stock. You got lucky. Congratulations.
Varmint, after seeing MY05 CR-Vs in person it looks like Honda only increased the wheel size while the overall diameter of the wheel/tire stayed the same. Is that true or did the entire diameter of the wheel/tire combo increase? I haven't seen them side by side but the difference can't be all that great.
I got my custom build (and imported, let me note) Escape in one month. Exactly as promised."
Yes, but you are in Canada:
1. Different dealer system.
2. Very close to Detroit
I'm extremely lucky then, as I got really-really custom built Windstar in one month as well, 3 years ago.
I'm expecting replies like "but they make it in Ontario, Canada"... :-)
BTW, I saw factory order
Also, where you buy is very important. If you have a large network of dealers in your area, they are more likely to get you what you want based on volume. I don't have that luxury. I only paid invoice on my CR-V, which I was pretty happy about, considering the next closest dealer is three hours away, and Honda just had their biggest month in their history in April. Furthermore, the dealer I went through doesn't even have an SE on the lot; the one I got is only the second gold one they've received this month, and both were purchased weeks before they arrived.
Ford, on the other hand, does have two large dealers in my area, but they aren't friendly with one another, and neither was interested in doing a whole lot for me. Again, they each have an overbundance of vehicles, and they seem more interested in moving the ones they have on the lot, rather than searching all over kingdom-come to find a specific vehicle. With the incentives they have going on right now, I guess I don't really blame them, since they aren't making a whole lot of money on Fords right now. Plus, I live in a pickup and large SUV market, both of which are much more profitable than the small SUV market. Regardless, since you seem to be able to get what you want in under a month, I'd be interested in knowing how many dealers you have in your area, and what your paying.
I just don't buy that Ford is specifically making a vehicle for you unless
A) The vehicle already exists; and/or
Well, you are missing one thing that assembly line rolls without interruption. Time to time, it may slow down but rolls. Why not convert one of the units already on assembly line to customer specs. This way, you may quarantee to sell one unit rather than loosing sales for two units.
Loosing a customer with money in his pocket is plain dumb.
The US automakers are not that flexible. If you order a car to specifications, they have to plan for that particular car. They cannot modify a vehicle while it is on the assembly line.
At least that is my understanding. Can someone from the automotive assembly world comment?
That's not about "modifications" but about assembling/equipping it with STANDART options that I want.
Yep, there are bunch of them in Canada Capital metro...
A) The vehicle already exists; and/or
Like I said, I saw factory order
I did my research before buying, the price was very good...
I know that I saved about 3K by going with the Tribute vs the CRV thanks to incentives (similarly equipped, top of the line models). I realize that the CRV will hold its value a little better, but most likely not by 3K. I tend to sell my vehicles every four years or so. I also liked the better bumper to bumper warranty that the Tribute had over the CRV. At the end of the day I will have a solid SUV that will be completely covered for the time that I own it (unless I decide to keep it longer).
But that is just the point. They put all the "standard" options on all cars. Since that didn't satisfy you, I presume you are wanting to add options. These options are pre-planned for every vehicle that enters the assembly line, before it begins construction.
The original statement asked why Ford couldn't just add on what one wanted to a car already on the assembly line.
Yup, especially Hondas, which seem to go in cycles of being "hot" and thus hard to find. I had to wait for my 2003 CR-V. But Honda manages to keep their cars reasonable in price by limiting options. The Yen has soared in value vs. the US dollar in recent years, but the car prices haven't gone up a corresponding amount for Honda. Thus Honda puts out pre-set options for it's trim levels. The dealers can add stuff, but not the factory.
I was actually thinking of product cycle when I wrote about flexibility. Japanese vendors seem to go on a 5 year cycle, whereas the Big Three go on a 10 year cycle. But I think I shouldn't have mentioned US manufacturors in my statement. I doubt that any auto maker would modify a car once it gets on the assembly line.
That's not true, for sure...
Well, wheels, doors, A/C (usually), etc. I do take your point though...
one thing that is great about the escape is the huge rear bumper, is that it takes the hits. cheap repairs.
You're new here.
Glad to hear it was an easy fix Scape.
Steve, Host
CR-V can handle corners better than Escape.
Escape has much bigger sunroof.
CR-V has steering wheel radio controls and VSC standard.
Escape has power driver's seat, but no memory.
CR-V comes with curtain side airbags standard, the Escape she got does not have them.
Both have 6 disk in-dash changer, but CR-V can also play cassettes, and has built in XM sattelite radio controls (receiver/antenna sold separatley).
CR-V gets about 22 mpg city, 25 mpg highway (doing 70-80 mph for 400 miles), Escape gets 22 mpg highway, about 19 city.
While it is not a problem, when she brought the Escape home, I poped the hood and found a screw just sitting on top of the air cleaner housing. Not sure where it came from. Might have been an "extra" part.
I have a Japanese made CR-V, which is all Japanese, while the "US" built Escape was designed by Mazda, built by UAW workers from Mexican parts. Every other part in the Escape is from Mexico.
CR-V cost ≈ $21,000, similarly equipped V6 Escape with auto (no manual with 4WD) was ≈ $25,000 with employee discount and rebates (≈ $30,000 MSRP).
I pay $360/month for 60 months with no money down.
She pays $350/month 36 month lease (10,500 miles/year), 55% residual, with $1000 down and employee discount.
If cornering was issue, she should have opted for Tribute. Mazda calls Tribute "Miata of SUVs" due to advanced suspension components.
"CR-V gets about 22 mpg city, 25 mpg highway (doing 70-80 mph for 400 miles), Escape gets 22 mpg highway, about 19 city."
The trip I just came from gave me 23.5 mpg 3 people, 70 mph, constant AC for 380 miles, all highway.
The last trip I got during April, 25.5 mpg, 1 person, 70 mph, no AC.
My 05 trib gets 19.5 miles in city, no AC, 20 miles round trip commute.
The trip I just came from gave me 23.5 mpg 3 people, 70 mph, constant AC for 380 miles, all highway.
The last trip I got during April, 25.5 mpg, 1 person, 70 mph, no AC.
My 05 trib gets 19.5 miles in city, no AC, 20 miles round trip commute. "
Just for comparisons, at a steady state 70 MPH, I will get just under 28 MPG from my 2003 CR-V, fully loaded. The Tribune/Escape twins have the V6, which provides some advantages over the I4 of the CR-V, particularly in towing and initial acceleration. However, that I4 is good for MPG, and is vastly better than the Ford/Mazda base I4. Plus (I'm sure you will all correct me if I am wrong), you can't get the I4 except on the base model Escape? So you can't get the I4 MPG and all of the convenience features found in the CR-V EX/SE.
I didn't say we paid $30K, I said it had an MSRP of around $30K. We paid much less with rebates and employee pricing discount. But it was still more than we paid for the CR-V, plus we got 2.9% APR CR-V.
I thoroughly test drove both the CRV and Tribute and the Tribute handled better than the CRV. The Tribute was slightly quicker than the CRV off the line, and had noticeably more power around 50-70mph. The Tribute can also tow more than the CRV (comes in handy with four people and a jet ski).
A few things that I loved about the CRV (SE) over the Tribute S was the radio controls, and the VSC, better gas mileage.
A few things I disliked was the position of the shifter, the rear mounted spare tire, the fact that the rear door swung to the curb vs. away from the curb, lack of power vs the Tribute. CRV SE cost thousands more. I also thought the Escape/Tribute looked a little more rugged.
Each vehicle has its advantages and disadvantages.
But the strange part is, a Chevy owner comes to CRV-Escape forum and complains about Ford's quality :P