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But, they build the engines for Accords and Civics right here in Ohio.. They don't ship them in from overseas (as BMW does in South Carolina).
For every Japanese employee that is temporarily assigned to an American auto plant, there are 500 US citizens permanently employed there..
15,000 Ford workers are taking buyouts, just in the Cincinnati area, alone..
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http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-02-19-odometer-usat_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-02-19-odometer-usat_x.htm
Ford is not accurate either, as a matter of fact, none of the odmeters out there are accurate. Some are faster, some are slower, some are very close. But, as the tire wears out, the odomter accuracy goes out the window. That is the mechanics of the odometer accuracy, it measures the revolutions of the wheel, which is then converted to mileage using circumference. Since tire wear, tire pressue, aftermarket or optional tires and rims mess up the constant in the calculation, you never get very accurate measurment.
The lawyers chose to sue Honda because it had more money.
Lawyers' fees in this case are $10,000,000 doubt Ford has that kind of money just laying around, with the billions of dollars in losses.
However, it does say he tested domestic vehicles and they were "by and large perfect".
The lawyers chose to sue Honda because it had more money.
Huh? Toyota has a lot of money right now too so why didn't he sue them? Do you think a lawyer would have pity on someone because they are hurting financially right now? Ford and GM can afford to pay out, but as the article states, he didn't find a problem with them.
That statement was pretty off the wall blue.
Here are a few observations:
The cons:
1) Transmission. Automatic tranny hunts for gears when going up long hills. With the cruise on, Escape loses about 5 mph before it kicks down, then once up to speed it shifts up, then loses 5 mph again and kicks down. VERY ANNOYING. I ended up pre-emptivley turning off O/D at the bottom of hills to stop it from gear hunting.
2) Lack of power. There is no power what so ever when you need to quickly gain speed from 50 to 70 or 60 to 80 mph. Pedal to the metal, the engine is making noise, but there is no "push" Makes for very scary passes on rural single lane roads. Despite having V6 and all this power on paper, it is not useable when needed. There is dcent grunt getting up to speed, but once at speed, there is no power to gain more speed. I never had this fear of passing in the CR-V.
3) Cornering. Taking the same roads we take in the CR-V, Escape is less capable at cornering. Body leans a alot, and the general feeling of unsurefootedness is very pronounced.
4) Braking. It sure takes its sweet time braking, even though Escape has half the miles the CR-V has.
5) Cruise control. Probably due to the tranny, but it has about 5 mph window up and down to keep the speed "constant"
6) HVAC. When it is really cold outside (3 degrees F) when we left Buffalo, I had the heat setting at 3 notches above the hottest, but it would not keep the temperature the same. Setting it one notch higher made it to hot, one notch lower would be too cold. The setting would have been perfect if it maintaned same hot/cold ratio. And it is not like we drove through different climate zones, it was still about 3 degree outside, but the system did not provide constant temprature. It got much better when we made our way farther south, and could leave the setting at the half way point, which it maintained much better.
7) Seats. There is no lateral support in the seat. The seats just feel flat, like a cushion on a couch.
8) Radio. No steering wheel controls for the radio. Once you have them, you get used to them very quickly.
9) Radio. No tweeters at ear level to bring up the highs to where they can be heard better.
10) Lower roof line for a 6 footer. I really have to lean forward to see the traffic lights.
11) Speedometer error. I use Micrsoft streets and Trips GPS and software. The speedometer on the Escape has 4 mph error (you are traveling slower than the speed displayed), if you assume that the center of the needle over the marking is the travel speed. Using the same software and hardware I get 0 mph error from the CR-V.
The Pros:
1) It is quieter at speed than CR-V.
2) Radio is capable of holding on to distant stations longer.
I am sure someone (Scape??) will come back and tell me that it is just my imagination.
how many miles was your trip? what kind of mileage did you get?
Your assessment of the seats, brakes, power, cornering, transmission, and HVAC are all subjective and only cons to you. Having said that I did find the Escape tippy on the highway at speed and the transmission did hunt a lot (we have all hills and no flats in this neck of the woods). But I found the HVAC to work just fine and power was ample once you learned where to find it (don't floor the gas pedal and use the low end of the engine's range).
We had a Limited with the Audiophile system so we did h.ave door mounted tweeters and a subwoofer so I can't attest to the stereo. If you must have door mounted tweeters they are available. I hope that the tweeters in the CR-V are better than the one's we had in our '96 Civic. Those were crap and they drowned out all the other sound somehow.
You think the Escape is quieter? Hmmm, I always thought the Escape was rather loud.
You are entitled to your opinion and we all appreciate your time to write it up. Please let everyone know that it is your opinion in the future though. Not everone understands speedo error and such things like we do.
There are a lot of hills cutting through the Allegheny mountains, plus we were doing 75 mph on average. Some sections of the road have 70 mph speed limit, which results in us moving at 85 mph, and some are only 45-50 mph.
You think the Escape is quieter? Hmmm, I always thought the Escape was rather loud.
According to the engine specs, most power in the Escape is produced north of 5000 RPM. The tranny does not really let the engine spin that fast...
I think if Ford put a 5 spd auto or a manual in the Escape, it might be able to use all the potential power that the engine is theoretically capable of producing. Although, I felt like the engine was just choking at high RPM's.
Of course, I come from a line of vehicles that produce power across the whole range of RPM, some of which rev all the way to 15,000 RPM (Honda bike), without choking.
Escape is quieter than CR-V. At 80 mph it revs at about 2,500 RPM, while CR-V revs at 3,500 (manual), auto revs lower.
I always wondered about that because I never found any power north of 5000 RPM. The engine seemed to lose power before 5000 and I was always able to pass with confidence using the ample power on the lower end. A 5-speed tranny would do worlds for the Escape though. Why it's not in the '08 I don't know. :confuse:
Of course, I come from a line of vehicles that produce power across the whole range of RPM, some of which rev all the way to 15,000 RPM (Honda bike), without choking.
I think that's the key factor here. I'm used to driving Ford's which typicall do not have the power band of a modern Honda. The last Honda I drove, excluding test drives, was our '96 Civic and it had no power until you got north of 3500 RPM. If Honda's are still like that then I would have listed similar cons to yours about the engine. From what I've read they are not like that anymore though.
I'll vouch for that. I live on the Western edge of them.
Ironically, one of the reasons we chose the Escape over the CR-V in 2002 was the latter's performance on such hills. I wasn't pleased with how the drivetrain shifted around unless I wound the motor up to levels that are unpleasant to me. That's not the only we didn't get it though.
I found the hard way that it has one. Just another negative for the Escape. I have taken CR-V to over 100 mph, so I know it does not have the speed limiter.
Problem with the Escape tranny, is that if contantly shifts while climbing hills. Which I find very annoying.
Secondly, the tranny in the Escape does not let the engine reach its full potential. I have driven it hard, it never reached 5000 RPM, always shifted before that. Pressing the pedal into the floor did not make the tranny hold gear to allow engine reach its full potential.
Since the spec call out for the Duratec in the Escape to produce 200 Hp at 6000 RPM, and 193 ft. lbs 4,850, the engine never produces advertized Horse Power. Seems like a waste of 600 cc's and 40 HP over Honda's 4 cylinder engine.
So, I am not sure what you found so uncomfortable about CR-V engine, at least it does not slow down on the uphills and does not make for un-safe passing.
I am used to revving engines to the red line (Honda Cars and Bikes), so that only seemed natural to expect the engine to rev at least to the point where it makes most of it power.
Is it a speed limiter or just a function of the final drive ratios?
I agreed with that in relation to highway driving. On neighborhood hills I found that the two to perform the other way around. The CR-V needed multiple shifts to climb steep hills whereas the Escape climbed in a lower gear and at a lower RPM. Since we do 80%+ of our driving on said neighborhood streets I found the CR-V's drivetrain to be very annoying.
It revved at about 3200 RPM, so there was another 3000 RPM to the red line. The fuel would cut out until the car slowed to 95+ mph, and then come back. Kind of like the red line fuel cut off on the CR-V at 6800 RPM.
It was definatly a speed limiter, not function of the gears.
That is probbaly because CR-V has more gears to downshift to.
Once again, a well built engine should not have any trouble revving to the red line, or at least to the RPM's it is rated pt produce most of the power.
Escape is rated to produce 200 Hp at the RPM's that tranny never allows it to reach.
Why bother then hauling around extra 2 cylinders, and 600 cc with the accociated increased weight and hit in the fuel economy?
I agree that CR-V with Auto is not to be desired either. Actually, I have yet to find an automatic that can read my mind and shift into the gear it will need. CR-V automatic is beter than Escape's because it has more gears and Gradelogic prevents gear hunting, but it is still not good enough for me. Luckily Honda offered CR-V with stick when I bought mine.
I have been driving stick for this long, it is too late for me to learn how to drive automatic.
As I said, the Escape did not have to downshift at all. For example, if it was in 3rd it stayed in 3rd and we moved on up the hill. The CR-V would have to shift back to 2nd to make it up.
Automatics do stink. Unfortunately they are a necessary evil for most family haulers these days.
Once again, a well built engine should not have any trouble revving to the red line, or at least to the RPM's it is rated pt produce most of the power.
The Duratec30 in the Mazda6 I had revved to the redline quite happily. I'm not sure that I ever attempted to rev the Escape to the redline so I can't argue much with you on that subject. The Mazda version did have VVT though.
Climbing hills in 3rd gear puts the engine at full load, 99% engine loading, while it keeps the RPM's around 3500, well bellow the max output, that would explain the inability to maintain speed uphills.
I usually drive fast, 80 - 90 mph is the norm, with some bursts to over 100 mph (not in the Escape, since it is governed to 100 mph) to keep up with other fast moving cars.
Henry was curious and invited them into his office. They refused and instead asked that he come out to the parking lot to their car. They persuaded him to get into the car which was about 130 degrees, turned on the air-conditioner and cooled the car off immediately.
The old man got very excited and invited them back to the office, where he offered them 3 million dollars for the patent. The brothers refused saying they would settle for 2 million but they wanted the recognition by having a label "The Goldberg Air-Conditioner" on the dashboard of each car that it was installed in.
Now old man Ford was more than just a little bit Anti-Semitic, and there was no way he was going to put the Goldberg name on 2 million Ford cars. They haggled back and forth for about 2 hours and finally agreed on 4 million dollars and that just their first names would be shown.
And so, even today, all Ford air-conditioners show on the
controls , the names "Norm, Hi, & Max".
Don't forget their foreign cousins, Panel and Floor.
I have done the same and end up purchasing the Suzuki GV Luxury. There is no other SUV with so many standard options and low price. For sure you can get it for about $3K under MSRP/20K fully loaded. Is not the best on gas but I'm very impressed. (best kept secret)
See specs and good luck:
Here are only the safety features
Engine block heater
4 Mode 4WD (4H, 4H LOCK, 4L LOCK, Neutral)
Centre Differential LSD (Limited Slip Differential)
Dual front airbags
Front seat-mounted side airbags
Side-curtain airbags
ABS with EBD (Electronic Brake Force Distribution)
Centre high-mounted rear stop lamp
Brake assist
ESP** (Electronic Stability Program) with traction control
3-point ELR seat belts (all 5 seating positions)
Height-adjustable front seat belt anchors
ISO-FIX child safety seat provisions (2 rear)
Child seat tether anchorage (3 rear)
Child-proof rear door locks
Daytime running lights
Side impact beams
http://www.suzukiauto.com/sr_07/grand_vitara/specs_and_pricing.php
CR-V is lower to the ground, so getting in and out should be easier than Escape.
Your definition of a smooth ride may be different from mine. I want the car to talk to me, to tell me what the road is like, what the engine is doing... stuff like that. If you want total isolation from the outside, Buick or Lexus should fit the bill here.
Kandyr
Have you priced a Buick (what would be the equivalent now to the LeSabre, Lucerne?). Maybe when new they might be out of your price range, but like most domestics they depreciate like a rock. You can probably pick up a one or two year old Buick for 60% of it's original price. Since entry to the vehicle is important what about a Buick SUV or Crossover. A used Rendezvous might fit the bill. I admit I'm not up on my Buicks.
Haven't tested the new Mitsu Outlander.
All others are a bit of bumpy due to the harder suspension. Remember that some of the Small SUVs are built for some off-roading (suzuki and others).
The Santa Fe seems to be smooth for city driving purposes.
Scape get out on the net and check your facts. Many people, including myself are successful in bargaining with Honda dealers. I bought a CR-V EX AWD with auto transmission and about $300 in Honda accessories for right at $22K. MSRP for all that was $24,362. How can you possibly say they won't deal?
:shades:
PS - What did you get for your Escape when you had to get rid of it???
I post that my Escape went 75,000 trouble free miles. My wifes Tribute ES V6 has 30,000 trouble free miles. See a pattern here? I get the normal Honda response. "Should have gone 150, million miles" Blah, Blah.. response. Fact is the Escape/Tribute is every bit as reliable as a CRV. Just live with it can you?
As far as pricing. Get out on the net and read other chat rooms. It is no secret that Honda products are more expensive upfront and in financing than Ford products. This is a no brainer. Trying to convince folks they aren't doesn't bode well for your reputation. By the way, why is it "feeding the bears" when a Ford person arrives? :sick:
It actually resides on the SUV board..
regards,
kyfdx
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