Did you recently rush to buy a new vehicle before tariff-related price hikes? A reporter is looking to speak with shoppers who felt pressure to act quickly due to expected cost increases; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com for more details by 4/24.
I don't understand why Acura has never offered a RWD sedan. Not that they have done badly with the TL, on the contrary, but they are now pushing the envelope with FWD.
I'm not sure why they haven't switched yet either. Or at least given up the AWD version for those of us who detest FWD. Not much keener on AWD but it'd be easier to live with day in and out.
We are not going to go THERE in this discussion. For general debate about how many and which wheel drive is the best, feel free to join the FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD discussion and carry it on.
But we need to keep this Sedans Comparisons Board discussion focused on the vehicles themselves. Which and how many wheel drive each offers is certainly relevant here, but an extended debate about which is better in general is already taking place at that link and that's where that sort of debate belongs.
I saw a TL in traffic sitting next to a Dodge Intrepid & they're like twins. All the TL has is a 270hp engine & a lot of gadgets, nothing exiting. The last mag comparo I read placed the TL 3rd to the G35 & 3 series. The now 4 year old IS placed 4th but rated higher than the TL in the fun to drive factor, handling & chassis performance. I'd rather have a great handling RWD car that just needs a little boost in power, power is easy aneasy fix in a car. What's harder to do is to make a car like the TL that has good HP but very mediocre in handling & to try to make that FWD car handle & drive better than an IS, a G35 or 3 series
If what you said is true then we might see a sales drop on TL. Lets see in 3 days time.
Japanese engineer put more hp but forgot to upgrade its handling lol you are funny oniac.
How about CR mag who placed the TL 1st over 330i, Motorweek, Motoring TV. All of them place TL 1st. Only one mag placed TL 3rd. Sorry I dont even know where IS was, I never like the car.
You may say TL's handling is very mediocre bcuz you dont own one. If you think IS is better, why TL sells more than IS, G, 3's. Maybe they dont buy your theory. to each his own.
I really don't understand how sales numbers determines which car is superior. Popularity, sure, but better handling or performance? By using sales figures, the Accord and Camry blow away the TL, do you think that either of those cars is better than the TL? Is a TL a better performing car than a Ferrari or Lamborghini because they sell more? I'm not flaming you, I just don't get your reasoning.
Many people in here seem to bring up sales numbers often. They reason people buy the best product...thus the success of McDonald's and Titanic. Naturally, joe blow, gravitates toward the best product.
BTW, did someone say the BMW is slow? Okey dokey. I'll remember that tomorrow when playing around with my car...
In this forum, to use terms like, "slow," "mediocre," "underpowered," "small," etc. is just ignorant.
The 170 hp A4 1.8T is neither slow nor underpowered.
The TL's handling is certainly better than mediocre.
The C230K engine is not small.
Every car in this class is capable of above average acceleration and handling, and possesses poise, balance, elegance, and luxury that trumps the average commuter car.
Sure a Honda Accord V-6 can outrun an Audi A4 in a straight line. However, the Accord does not handle as well, look as good, offer certain luxury features, and it isn't as exclusive.
These characteristics are what define this class of cars...it's about the total package.
"How about CR mag who placed the TL 1st over 330i"
You are correct, but what did it place it in first for. Not for handling. However, handling is just one characteristic of a car. People value different aspects of a cars nature. Notice the Lexus ES330 was down on the list, has nothing to do with how the car sells or how good a car is in the publics perception, or what we think of a car here at Edmunds. That is only CRs opinion of a car.
I like CR, but when making a CAR buying decision, I leave home without it.
It is as a total package that the IS300 shines. Great price. Great standard (HID) and optional equipment (LSD). Great platform, including RWD, IRS, and manual transmission. Great overall performance. Fantastic reliability/quality. Great warranty (both b-to-b and powertrain with optional mfr extension to b-to-b). Good ownership costs (though insurance a bit too high). Great safety, including crash test results. Decent depreciation. Good practicality, if a bit smallish. One of the best sales/service experiences in the industry.
It is the little things that can make the big difference. Can you get LSD? Mine does. Does your manufacturer sell its own extended b-to-b warranty? Mine does, out to 7yr/100k.
It's great that IS300 fullfils your needs, the negatives why I personally would not consider an IS are as follows:
1) un-Lexus like interior. The word Corolla comes to mind. 2) Boy racer styling. Subjective, but it is not my cup of tea. 3) Bang for the buck. Considering that a more powerful G35 can be had for the same money makes the IS300 slightly overpriced.
As far as total packages go, the G35 and the TL blow the IS completely out of the water, into outer space.
As for sales figures, if the cars compared are closely matched in terms of category, class, equipment, price range, etc., then sales figures are very relevant in determining a car's overall success, and at close to 7,000 units per month, the TL is king!
Of course you are completely correct, and that is why the IS300 is the perfect car for you.
I strongly considered the IS300 too, but not to sound like a broken record, I didn't like the boy racer styling either, and the relatively cheap and contrived interior turned me off.
My TSX has 99% of the performance of the IS300, yet has a much nicer and higher quality interior (IMO), a smoother quieter ride on the highway (IMO), and a more dynamic and exciting engine/transmission combo (IMO).
Let's face it, no one car is better than another car here, so stop trying to convince everyone that the IS300 is the cat's meow. For you, it may be, but I took a pass...different strokes.
Sales figures reflect how any automobile is being received by the consumer. In the long run they determine whether any model continues in production based on the manufacturer's defined return on investment. Sales determine whether a manufacturer makes changes to an existing model to improve sales or whether they decide to introduce a new model. Sales figures certainly do not denote superiority in terms of styling, performance, handling, etc but they do denote what combination of these the consumer prefers. The wholesale increase in HP across most of the models in this discussion is an example. I am amused by the comments I see here insinuating that "Joe Blow" buys mediocre cars and some individuals are above that because they buy cars that they have somehow defined as "different". Superiority in the marketplace is what every manufacturer is seeking. That marketplace is however defined differently by different manufacturers. Ferrari does not have the same sales goals as Honda, Nissan, Toyota but they do have some numbers they want to meet in order to maintain their place in whatever market they decide is important to them. You can't discount sales as a very important indicator. The reference to McDonalds is an attempt to deride one of the most globally successful businesses. It doesn't matter if Joe Blow eats there and you don't. Other businesses would kill for McDonald's success in their market. Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. The marketplace inevitably determines what survives and sales figures are the feedback from the marketplace to the manufacturers. It will also inevitably determine what you get on your new car in the future. Navigation systems weren't on any cars a few years ago. The sales figures for the new TL reflect an acceptance on the part of the consumer that Acura is on the right track with their blend of styling, handling, performance etc. The new Acuras will drive changes to BMW , Nissan , Toyota and others just as they drove the changes to the new TL.. Competition is also a wonderful thing. The consumer wins in the end. Most of the discussion on this board is "my car is better than your car" supported by whatever article, personal experience or personal opinion the author chooses to use to attempt to justify their position. No one is right and no one is wrong since none of it can really be objectively substantiated. It is always interesting to hear from the participants here however and many of the opinions are put forth from an obvious informed background. I learn a lot here and also laugh a lot. God bless the internet.
You can always bring up accord, camry or McDonald, but the fact is they are in different market segments.
If you want to buy a $33k-$40k car, would certainly expect good features, good handling, good performance. Will they buy an Accord/Camry? nope. Bcuz they expect more than that with that much money. So if you say sales fgures has nothing to do with quality, buy some marketing books.
If you were a car manufacturer, would you produce a car where you dont need to sell it? Not with Lexus, BMW or Infinity. They wont survive if if they dont sell the car
If I'm not mistaken, there seem to be some just-as-equally partisan supporters of the TSX, TL, and G35, not to mention 3 Series, on this board. Nothin' wrong with that, just as long as we all get to speak peacefully.
Isn't that part of the purpose of this board, to share you enthusiasm for a particular marque and model? We won't convince the converted, but there are a ton of people who are still looking trying to make a decision.
fedlawman... You seem to be doing a great job trying to convince everyone that the TSX is the cat's meow. I'll second your own words in this area: for you, it may be, but I took a pass...different strokes. [Too little car--Euro-derived Honda Accord, FWD and 4-cyl--for too much money. If I had to go FWD 4-cyl, guess I'd rather have a Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V or SRT-4.]
"If you want to buy a $33k-$40k car, would certainly expect good features, good handling, good performance."
Good point Danny. And every manufacturer mentioned thus far, excels in one area or another. Nobody excels at everything. Some people look at the total package, others are more selective and buy for a characteristic or two.
That is, why do people get Ferraris and huge SUVs. Based on one or two characteristics (hope I don't have to spell 'em out). Getting an ES330 or a TL or an IS probably involves a number of characteristics, weighted averaged in the buyers mind and then rated.
I really don't understand how sales numbers determines which car is superior. Popularity, sure, but better handling or performance?
Does it make sense that a car is very popular and has a big hit in it's sales because of : 1. the car doesnt perform well? 2. Bad handling 3. Cant even handle a corner?
Do you think those 7000+ people/month were all stupid enough not to see that?
'Performance' does include acceleration, 0-60, 0-100,1/4 mile, top speed, etc.
I definitely fall into the "total package" category which is why I chose the TL with the G35 being a close 2nd (the interior thing). BMW fell short in the value department. Some who are hung up on RWD wouldn't even consider an Acura and that's fine for them. Others have needs of prestige and will only look at BMW or MB, etc. Life would be pretty boring if we all chose the one car in this class that suited everybody's needs. Fortunately, that car doesn't exist and hopefully never will.
The Audi A4 1.8T over the TSX. Granted, the TSX was probably faster and more reliable. But the Audi's styling was nicer, it handled better, and looked and felt a lot more luxurious than the Accord-like TSX. Let's face it folks, when buying a car the "intangibles" sometimes play a bigger role in the decision making than the quantifiable part. To me the A4 felt "special", it made my pulse quicken...that's what it's all about, to truly enjoy what you drive.
"You seem to be doing a great job trying to convince everyone that the TSX is the cat's meow."
As you've pointed out, partisanship is fine, and to a certain extent, expected when car enthusiasts get together to talk about cars (and in particular, their cars).
I am happy with my TSX and when a significant tidbit comes along (1. Speed Challenge success and 2. My track day), of course I let folks know...that's what this forum is for. I don't think a couple of posts are excessive and I think they were informative and interesting.
On the other hand, in addition to your weekly "the IS300 is the best choice in this segment" comments, you also litter this forum with comments that berate the cars that other enthusiasts love.
How about I just agree with you that the IS300 is the finest car in this segment, and it is superior to all the other cars on the list because they each have at least one of the following failings...
Lack LSD, underpowered, unreliable, FWD, too expensive, not a Lexus, not 50/50 weight distribution, plagued with torque steer, 4 cylinder, automatic, not a premium marque.
fedlawman... Play nice. Berate? Litter? Ignorant? Those are your words. You seem to get upset if anyone points out that the TSX is a European-derived Honda Accord. FWD and 4-cyl. (I couldn't imagine having one that was an automatic.) It is what it is. Just as the IS300 is derived from the Toyota Altezza. (Too bad we can't get the IS200 6-speed manual version in USA.) We all love the car(s) we do for many and varied reasons. I'm a strong proponent of a ton of cars. I've owned, and enjoyed, G20, 323i, IS300, LS8, and many more. I'm not set in my ways nor inherently or permanently partial to any one marque or model.
I'm not suggesting that people who buy a TL are stupid. Personally I think it is a fine car, and my opinion has nothing to do with sales figures. Even if they only sold 1000 of them per month, I would still feel the same way. BMW sells far less M3's per month, so that makes it a lesser car? Not by my way of thinking. "Does it make sense that a car is very popular and has a big hit in it's sales because of : 1. the car doesnt perform well? 2. Bad handling 3. Cant even handle a corner?" Evidently this is quite true in regards to the Camry and Accord. Hence, I personally base my taste in automobiles on what I like, not on what is the most popular. Again, I am not flaming you or the TL.
Are we supposed to be comparing supply and demand curves, or which cars can take which curvy roads?While there is some value in this microeconomic discussion, I think we will all agree that none of these cars are Edsels. (Although I must tell you that I compared the I35 to the 04 TL, and the Infiniti salesman was falling all over himself to spark my interest in an 03! I35 even though 04 I35s were in the showroom.)
Now, there is probably something to be said for those cars that have more demand than supply, and something else to be said for those cars that have more supply than demand. The raw sales totals of any given month for any given model are more or less meaningless, unless you know what business/marketing model the manufacturer has chosen for that model.
The fact that BMW could sell more M3s than it chooses to produce and Acura can sell more TLs with Nav than it can produce tells us nothing more than that the market sees both cars favorably.
Now for example, if BMW is not meeting it's 3-series sales goals since the 04 Acura TL was introduced... that's a different story altogether.
BTW, I have no idea if that is the case. It's probably more like Infiniti success with the G35 hurting the I35. Is Honda seeing demand soften for the V-6 Accord since the TL was introduced? That is just a guess - the price points being so disparate would tend to work against that hypothesis from a microeconomic perspective....
First of all, Let me apologize if I have mistakenly interpreted your comments as inflamatory if that wasn't your intention.
Now my response:
You do know that the IS300 and TSX both weigh about 3250 lbs, right?
You must also know that the IS300 and TSX both do 0-60, 5-60, 1/4 mile, skidpad, and slalom within a hair of each other (in spite of the fact that you once said the IS300 offers "near 330i performance, luxury, and equipment for 325i price").
Surely you will admit that, regardless of layout, the TSX is a fine performance sedan both on the street and at the track.
You should also admit that the subtleties between FWD and RWD, and the inclusion or omission of LSD is more significant to a "sports car" discussion than an "entry-lux performance sedan" discussion, since neither issue is a factor until you're driving above 8/10ths.
Now, if you simply prefer the way RWD works and feels, well that's fine. But when you insist that the "small 4-cyl engine" in the Acura "lacks torque," or that "the FWD 4-cyl TSX and 9-3 set the bare minimum for this category," you come across as a car snob putting others down because they drive an "inferior car."
Remember when you peppered that X-Type owner with one-years worth of magazine reviews (from European Car, MT, R&T, C&D) to prove that the X-Type wasn't as good as he thought? How do you think it made him feel?
Remember when you stated that you "Wish we had three boards. One for FWD, one for AWD, and one for RWD. For me, there is no such thing as a "performance" FWDer. That is an oxymoron?"
Why wouldn't you want to compare the TSX, 9-3, 325i, and IS300 on the same board? They are objectively identical in size, luxury, comfort, and performance capabilities. To exclude a car because of its supposed "inferior layout" is akin to wanting the black kids to sit in the back of the school bus because you don't want to be seen associating with them.
Anyways, I know it's easy to misinterpret comments posted here because you don't "hear" what they're saying. Again, I apologize if I have misunderstood your intentions and taken them too personally...just consider that I may not be the only one who feels this way.
The 170 hp A4 1.8T is neither slow nor underpowered.
Bull. Straight up. I owned a Jetta 1.8T which is lighter than an A4 and it was a slow car. I've driven every A4 type - not including the obviously different S4, and the A4 just doesn't have any guts.
What's slow? Anything that takes more than 6, 6.5 seconds to hit 60. If you take 7 seconds to hit 60, then the car has average power. What's average? Falling into the 80-40% percentile which is in my book the same as failing. If the Altima and Accord can scamper to 60 in under 7, I expect so can a sports sedan.
The TL's handling is certainly better than mediocre.
Heck it supposedly handles better than a TSX and I thought the TSX was a sharp handling little car.
The C230K engine is not small.
The 230 is just not up to snuff, IMHO. To each his own.
Let's face it, no one car is better than another car here, so stop trying to convince everyone that the IS300 is the cat's meow. For you, it may be, but I took a pass...different strokes.
I agree with that. Some people feel they must bring up sales numbers to justify what they like. This akin to looking to mags and saying, "X writer in XX mag says it's good too." Great for the other buyers and "professionals." Does that mean those of us who didn't pick the "experts" choice (the TL according to some, the BMW to others) or choose the car 7000 people bought last month, we've made the wrong decision? How can it be a bad decision if we're happy with what we own?
There's a weird vibe on this board and it seems to come from a desire by some people to have the "cool" car or to pick the car 5 out of 6 dentists would own. What's wrong with loving what we bought?
BTW, I'm glad there's a TSX owner here mentioning that great car...
As for sales figures, if the cars compared are closely matched in terms of category, class, equipment, price range, etc., then sales figures are very relevant in determining a car's overall success, and at close to 7,000 units per month, the TL is king!
Wow, to dream to be like everybody else. That's something special! Sales do not equate to quality. Simple as that. If anything the high sales of an Acura could be sign that the car is welcomed by the majority of americans...you know, the obese (stats speak for themselves), lazy (tend to prefer automatic trannies) people who suck up all the natural resources of the world. The same people who made the SUV king.
Popularity is a double-edged sword. Ubiquity can certainly hurt a brand. But then again, we already know not many people even view Acura as a luxury brand...
I agree 100% with your assessment. My point was that "underpowered," "medoicre," and "small" are relative terms.
Compared to "most" cars on the road, the statements I made are basically correct. It is only in a discussion such as this that a 1.8L engine could be considered small, and the A4 1.8T slow.
I just thought I'd add a little perspective to point out that all of these cars are exceptional.
As for sales figures, I'm still on the fence there. I basically agree with you, with the caveat that if two cars of similar class, price and capabilities are released on the same date, and are produced at the same rate, and have the same advertising budget and company promoting them, then I suppose if one outsells the other by 50%, it is probably statistically significant. Other than that, it's just another nice-to-know figure.
It's not good enough you like it? To feel validated in your purchase you must have the approval of others - or at least some metric that shows x number like your car too. did you buy the car to be one of many or to impress others or did you buy the car because you enjoyed it?
The more people post about sales numbers, the more I sense this has little to do with personal feelings on the car. Otherwise, why even mention sales numbers?
BTW, as I've stated before, the TL is a likely replacement for my car, so lay of the shtick that somehow you're one upping one of those evil BMW owners. Unlike many here, I have no sworn allegiance to brand, make or model. I buy what makes me smile the most...
No matter what, numbers/stats/picture speaks for themself. Sales figures is a good measure for people's jugement. Can you deny that fact? Why the car doesnt sell as strong as others? Improvement needed.
People can say whatever they like but those sales number is the fact. 330i's owner may not worry about this (Either the car will be the last model or it is a dying breed) but the manufacturer will. They will have to IMPROVE the car so they can keep up.
Do you think those 7k ppl dont enjoy the car? lol. Fortunately they are silent.
Camry/accord/burger has nothing to do with entry-level luxury performance bcuz they are in different market segment. Price does prevent those Accord/camry buyers from buying. Everybody prefer good handling, good performance, good features. I am not saying TL has it all.
Do you like a burger that has good handling, features and performance?, fastest in 0-60,0-100,1/4mile? :-)
Do you like a burger that has voice command and navigation?:-)
Do you like a burger that has leather or hard top/moonroof?:-)
Can you tell me what makes it popular? What does Sales figures represent? No satisfying answer yet. Dont answer it with "It just happen to be like that!" or "the car just worth their dollars. It worth the dollar because.....<fill in the blank>
I bet the answer would be from a different market segment/planet and it will take a while. :-)
If the car manufacturer were satisfied with 400 buyer's satisfaction then they would not improve
Danny - I agree that sales in and of themselves tell you nothing. Better to look at the budget vs actual. In this segment there are FWD/AED/RWD. Can't look at the sales of the 3 series/IS/G35/CTS RWD with many available body styles, tops and engines to the TSX/TL one body, one engine, one drivetrain FWD siblings.
Better to know how much to capacity the plants are, how many units the manufacturer planned on selling, how many units the manufacturer can make.
But it doesnt work with new product. New product may have those limitations, limited plant/factory, limited dealership/service station and also the need to survive but for sales purposes in that price range of sweet $30-40k, which manufacturer that doesnt have a plan to sell more.
It might work for Limited edition cars, very expensive cars where only a few people in this world can buy. But for $30-40k entry-level luxo sedan the market is more than 28k.
Are you saying that BMW's plants dont have enough capacity to make or doesnt plan to sell the car, or the manufacturer can only make 400 cars a month? they must've set the wrong pricing policy
No matter what, numbers/stats/picture speaks for themself. Sales figures is a good measure for people's jugement. Can you deny that fact? Why the car doesnt sell as strong as others? Improvement needed.
I do not believe that for one second. Not for an instant. Purchase patterns do not indicate buyers are getting the vehicle they feel is best. GM sells millions more cars per year than anyone else; by sheer numbers then, your argument stands that the buyers snapping up GM products are then making some kind purchasing statement about GM quality. If anything the buyers enter knowing their car is of lesser quality than more expensive counterparts.
Do you think those 7k ppl dont enjoy the car? lol. Fortunately they are silent.
I think they bought what fit what they wanted and value played a big role. If the TL were priced the same as its competition I'm confident they wouldn't move 7k in a month.
Camry/accord/burger has nothing to do with entry-level luxury performance bcuz they are in different market segment.
It's all the same. Product. Product sales do not indicate that option is the nebulous "best" in a market only that some aspects of the that product appealled to more people. Great, Jack [non-permissible content removed]: The Movie was the top film for a weekend and made buckets of money. The quality is questionable, the appeal undeniable.
Price does prevent those Accord/camry buyers from buying. Everybody prefer good handling, good performance, good features. I am not saying TL has it all.
Yes value plays a role. There's a reason Wal-Mart is huge in the US. The TL is a great value for features and abilites. 33k for a car that's pretty much on par with say a 43k BMW? That's a great deal! Does it mean it's the "best"? No. Only that people saw a 10k savings and perceived there's not much difference. They jumped on a slammin' deal.
Do you like a burger that has good handling, features and performance?, fastest in 0-60,0-100,1/4mile? :-)
Product is product. You may have different criteria for judging a car v. your food but in the end, you buy what fits that criteria. 55 billion people can eat at a Mickey D's. Good for them. Millions bought a GM last year. Great. If we go exclusively by popularity, then what happens to individuality and personal preference? Studios didn't used to release top money makers of each week? They figured out that buyers are lemmings and being the top money maker and announcing it meant more people would be inclined to see the "best" film the next weekend.
Ads for cars do the same things. "Best selling mid-size SUV", "Best selling korean car with a V6", etc. For a reason I can never comprehend, they pray on a concept if a majority prefers something it must be good. To each his own.
Do you like a burger that has voice command and navigation?:-)
Navi's a rip off. Straight up. $200-300 in parts and software resold for a $1700 profit. Cars are made for profit but one item shouldn't generate that kinda dough.
People who buy GM would not consider 330i, G35, TL (entry-level luxo perf. sedan) vice versa. (different market segment). Seriouly which car from GM product that fits into this category.
A product is a product, if a car manufacturer thinks that way, why bother producing different cars, pricings, ideas, features, or exclusiveness. A car is a car, a product is a product no matter how advance is technology, who cares how boring this world is. Why bother specifying a specific segment like "Entry Level Luxury performance sedan". Wow (generalization of different product and market segment) out of this world. I got to go. later
fedlawman... We all compare cars differently. C&D's recent sport sedan test (3/04) included cars like TL, 325i, IS300, and G35 but not TSX. Automobile's huge test (10/03) included cars like IS300 and G35 as well as TSX, WRX, Lancer Evo, Mazda 6 S. I certainly do think the TSX is a legitimate comparison with 325i, IS300, etc.
Think we both like numbers. Using recent C&D data for IS300 (3/04--7 car comparison test) and TSX (7/03--full road test), both with manual transmissions and tires that are 17 inch and 215mm wide:
MSRP as tested: $31, 944 IS300 vs $28,990 TSX Weight: 3,380 lbs vs 3,246
0-60 mph: 7.3 secs vs 7.2 5-60 mph: 7.8 secs vs 7.7 1/4 mile: 15.7 @ 90 mph vs 15.6 @ 91 mph 30-50 mph: 8.6 secs vs 10.2 50-70 mph: 8.3 secs vs 9.7
70-0 braking: 167 ft vs 185
Lane change: 64.7 mph (best in test) vs no data skidpad: .88g vs .85
Top speed: 139 mph vs 133
The TSX's lighter weight and dragstrip-like 4.70:1 final drive certainly helps acceleration (vs. IS300's 3.73:1). Top gear times impacted by the depth of overdrive: the TSX's 6th is a very deep .66 overdrive vs IS300's .85.
But compare to some Automobile (10/03) data, both manual transmissions--IS300 then TSX
0-60 mph: 7.0 secs vs. 8.1 0-100 mph: 18.7 secs vs 21.l 0-110 mph: 23.0 secs vs 26.6 1/4 mile: 15.4 secs @ 92 mph vs 16.1 @ 89 mph 30-70 mph: 8.8 secs vs 8.6 70-0 braking: 183 ft vs 183
The differences in acceleration numbers are quite interesting. Go figure.
People who buy GM would not consider 330i, G35, TL (entry-level luxo perf. sedan) vice versa. (different market segment). Seriouly which car from GM product that fits into this category.
CTS.
A product is a product, if a car manufacturer thinks that way,
Be it McDonald's, Spielberg, J Crew or Acura...they're still trying to do the same thing: sell you something you really don't need. They want to create a desire. Some do it through straight value (Mcdonald's) in that segment, others through brand name recognition (J crew, nike, ralph lauren) and still others through features and value - Acura one price for everything.
Your numbers are misleading as that's a TSX with the navi. A TSX is normally 27k. 4k difference. Of course one can get an IS300 like that - 31k msrp - for 28k before haggling.
The TSX is definitely at a disadvantage in top gear acceleration tests due to its gearing (you can really see this effect in the 270 hp TL's top gear figures!).
The reason why the TSX was excluded from the recent C&D comparo is because it was a "$35,000 sedan comparo" and the TSX is only $26,500. I honestly think (must admit some bias here) the TSX would have scored higher than the TL because of it's overall better balance and lack of handling vices.
I hadn't seen the Automobile numbers, but I think they look a little conservative. There's always going to be some variation from test to test but, I've owned several 8 second 0-60 cars over the years, and the TSX isn't one of them.
fedlawman... Those who live by the numbers die by the numbers. Those are Automobile's numbers. I believe they were accurate. Same for C&D's numbers.
You have to keep in mind that each magazine has its own test methodologies. C&D, RT, MT, etc. do tell readers how they test (e.g., if they use high RPM drop clutch) and whether they adjust for atmospheric conditions. For example, C&D adjusts; R&T doesn't.
C&D: "Acceleration: Test vehicle is loaded with driver, full tank of fuel, and 10 pounds of test instrumentation. With manual-transmission cars, wheelspin or clutch slip or both are used at the starting line to make best use of the engine's power characteristics and the vehicle's traction. All upshiftss are lift-throttle with the clutch disengaged. ... various shift points are tried to maximize performance. ... All performance results are corrected to standard atmospheric conditions."
R&T: "Acceleration numbers are obtained using drop-clutch starts and lift-throttle shifts." Discusses how they don't adjust for conditions and that a statistically-significant result in "0-60 mph, 0.3 sec."
Best way to aggregate the data is to average all published test results.
blueguydotcom... Those are the published as-tested MSRPs. For the record, TSX from 7/03 issue and IS300 from 3/04 issue...
TSX-- Base: $26,990. As-tested: $28,990. Only option is nav system.
IS300-- Base: $29,980. As-tested: $31,944. One option is LSD. (The IS300 is an '04.)
fedlawman... Actually, the TSX did "win" that 7/03 MT comparison test and, even at 7.9 secs, it actually had the "quickest" 0-60 mph time of these three cars.
Don't get mad, but as I've said before, the TSX's small naturally aspirated 2.4L I4 just doesn't generate a ton of HP (and what it does do it needs high RPMs to do) and generates way less torque (esp. useable torque down low).
Has anyone ever seen a published test result for a TSX automatic? Wonder if it pushes 9 secs. 0-60 mph?
Actually, Car and Driver and I see eye to eye on the TSX...we both love it. (I guess it's no secret which magazine Acura picked to spend advertising money on, huh?).
Seriously though, the general consensus is that the TSX 6-speed is a low-to-mid seven second car and the automatic adds about 1/2 second to that. Seems about right to me.
As for the small & lacking power comments, I guess it depends on what you're comparing it too. Of course the 2.4L I-4 has a displacement and power deficit compared to Nissan's 3.5 L VQ motor. What car in this segment doesn't (besides the TL)?
But compared to all the rest (Audi 3.0L, BMW 2.5L, Lexus 3.0L, Saab 2.0L, M-B 1.8L, Jaguar 3.0L), it appears that the TSX'S 200 hp stacks up just fine.
The recent C&D $35,000 sedan comparo that you mentioned had the 325i as the 3rd fastest car behind the G35 and TL (no surprise there). Consider how close the TSX and 325i are...
The TSX's "little 4 cylinder motor" is very close to the BMW's I-6, which explains why the TSX runs just a 1/10th or two behind the 325i in most acceleration tests (which is also where the IS300 ran in that C&D comparo).
Also notice that the Honda I-4 offers 90% of peak torque (166) from 2000 RPM all the way to 7000 RPM...that's a 5000 RPM-wide powerband to play with! How many cars can make that claim?
So let me agree with you up to a point. The TSX engine is small and underpowered compared to the G35 and TL. Compared to every other car in this segment, it's a force to be reckoned with.
You keep that TSX engine perculating and it's torque is enough to make it pull confidently. I prefered the free-revving, liquid smooth 2.4 in the TSX to the tighter, punchless 2.5 in the 325i.
Oh, the price certainly helped make the TSX more palatable too. 26k (yes it was offered to me at 26k BEFORE I even attempted to haggle) v. a stripped 325i that was still hovering over 30k with discounts.
Comments
We are not going to go THERE in this discussion. For general debate about how many and which wheel drive is the best, feel free to join the FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD discussion and carry it on.
But we need to keep this Sedans Comparisons Board discussion focused on the vehicles themselves. Which and how many wheel drive each offers is certainly relevant here, but an extended debate about which is better in general is already taking place at that link and that's where that sort of debate belongs.
Okey-dokey?
What would it cost Acura and BMW to include it in their cars...maybe $100? A serious oversight for any car in this class.
Of course BMW offers a variety of models, body styles and tops.
Japanese engineer put more hp but forgot to upgrade its handling lol you are funny oniac.
How about CR mag who placed the TL 1st over 330i, Motorweek, Motoring TV. All of them place TL 1st. Only one mag placed TL 3rd. Sorry I dont even know where IS was, I never like the car.
You may say TL's handling is very mediocre bcuz you dont own one. If you think IS is better, why TL sells more than IS, G, 3's. Maybe they dont buy your theory. to each his own.
BTW, did someone say the BMW is slow? Okey dokey. I'll remember that tomorrow when playing around with my car...
The 170 hp A4 1.8T is neither slow nor underpowered.
The TL's handling is certainly better than mediocre.
The C230K engine is not small.
Every car in this class is capable of above average acceleration and handling, and possesses poise, balance, elegance, and luxury that trumps the average commuter car.
Sure a Honda Accord V-6 can outrun an Audi A4 in a straight line. However, the Accord does not handle as well, look as good, offer certain luxury features, and it isn't as exclusive.
These characteristics are what define this class of cars...it's about the total package.
You are correct, but what did it place it in first for. Not for handling. However, handling is just one characteristic of a car. People value different aspects of a cars nature. Notice the Lexus ES330 was down on the list, has nothing to do with how the car sells or how good a car is in the publics perception, or what we think of a car here at Edmunds. That is only CRs opinion of a car.
I like CR, but when making a CAR buying decision, I leave home without it.
But the "total package" is the whole nine yards. It includes:
-price
-equipment
-basic platform
-acceleration, handling, braking, steering
-reliability/quality
-warranty
-ownership costs
-safety
-depreciation/resale value
-functionality/practicality/utility
-sales/service experience
It is as a total package that the IS300 shines. Great price. Great standard (HID) and optional equipment (LSD). Great platform, including RWD, IRS, and manual transmission. Great overall performance. Fantastic reliability/quality. Great warranty (both b-to-b and powertrain with optional mfr extension to b-to-b). Good ownership costs (though insurance a bit too high). Great safety, including crash test results. Decent depreciation. Good practicality, if a bit smallish. One of the best sales/service experiences in the industry.
It is the little things that can make the big difference. Can you get LSD? Mine does. Does your manufacturer sell its own extended b-to-b warranty? Mine does, out to 7yr/100k.
1) un-Lexus like interior. The word Corolla comes to mind.
2) Boy racer styling. Subjective, but it is not my cup of tea.
3) Bang for the buck. Considering that a more powerful G35 can be had for the same money makes the IS300 slightly overpriced.
Do us other drivers on the road a favor and get your eyes checked out.
As for sales figures, if the cars compared are closely matched in terms of category, class, equipment, price range, etc., then sales figures are very relevant in determining a car's overall success, and at close to 7,000 units per month, the TL is king!
I strongly considered the IS300 too, but not to sound like a broken record, I didn't like the boy racer styling either, and the relatively cheap and contrived interior turned me off.
My TSX has 99% of the performance of the IS300, yet has a much nicer and higher quality interior (IMO), a smoother quieter ride on the highway (IMO), and a more dynamic and exciting engine/transmission combo (IMO).
Let's face it, no one car is better than another car here, so stop trying to convince everyone that the IS300 is the cat's meow. For you, it may be, but I took a pass...different strokes.
Sales figures certainly do not denote superiority in terms of styling, performance, handling, etc but they do denote what combination of these the consumer prefers. The wholesale increase in HP across most of the models in this discussion is an example. I am amused by the comments I see here insinuating that "Joe Blow" buys mediocre cars and some individuals are above that because they buy cars that they have somehow defined as "different". Superiority in the marketplace is what every manufacturer is seeking. That marketplace is however defined differently by different manufacturers. Ferrari does not have the same sales goals as Honda, Nissan, Toyota but they do have some numbers they want to meet in order to maintain their place in whatever market they decide is important to them.
You can't discount sales as a very important indicator. The reference to McDonalds is an attempt to deride one of the most globally successful businesses. It doesn't matter if Joe Blow eats there and you don't. Other businesses would kill for McDonald's success in their market. Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. The marketplace inevitably determines what survives and sales figures are the feedback from the marketplace to the manufacturers. It will also inevitably determine what you get on your new car in the future. Navigation systems weren't on any cars a few years ago.
The sales figures for the new TL reflect an acceptance on the part of the consumer that Acura is on the right track with their blend of styling, handling, performance etc.
The new Acuras will drive changes to BMW , Nissan , Toyota and others just as they drove the changes to the new TL.. Competition is also a wonderful thing. The consumer wins in the end.
Most of the discussion on this board is "my car is better than your car" supported by whatever article, personal experience or personal opinion the author chooses to use to attempt to justify their position. No one is right and no one is wrong since none of it can really be objectively substantiated.
It is always interesting to hear from the participants here however and many of the opinions are put forth from an obvious informed background. I learn a lot here and also laugh a lot.
God bless the internet.
If you want to buy a $33k-$40k car, would certainly expect good features, good handling, good performance. Will they buy an Accord/Camry? nope. Bcuz they expect more than that with that much money. So if you say sales fgures has nothing to do with quality, buy some marketing books.
If you were a car manufacturer, would you produce a car where you dont need to sell it? Not with Lexus, BMW or Infinity. They wont survive if if they dont sell the car
Isn't that part of the purpose of this board, to share you enthusiasm for a particular marque and model? We won't convince the converted, but there are a ton of people who are still looking trying to make a decision.
fedlawman... You seem to be doing a great job trying to convince everyone that the TSX is the cat's meow. I'll second your own words in this area: for you, it may be, but I took a pass...different strokes. [Too little car--Euro-derived Honda Accord, FWD and 4-cyl--for too much money. If I had to go FWD 4-cyl, guess I'd rather have a Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V or SRT-4.]
Good point Danny. And every manufacturer mentioned thus far, excels in one area or another. Nobody excels at everything. Some people look at the total package, others are more selective and buy for a characteristic or two.
That is, why do people get Ferraris and huge SUVs. Based on one or two characteristics (hope I don't have to spell 'em out). Getting an ES330 or a TL or an IS probably involves a number of characteristics, weighted averaged in the buyers mind and then rated.
Does it make sense that a car is very popular and has a big hit in it's sales because of :
1. the car doesnt perform well?
2. Bad handling
3. Cant even handle a corner?
Do you think those 7000+ people/month were all stupid enough not to see that?
'Performance' does include acceleration, 0-60, 0-100,1/4 mile, top speed, etc.
As you've pointed out, partisanship is fine, and to a certain extent, expected when car enthusiasts get together to talk about cars (and in particular, their cars).
I am happy with my TSX and when a significant tidbit comes along (1. Speed Challenge success and 2. My track day), of course I let folks know...that's what this forum is for. I don't think a couple of posts are excessive and I think they were informative and interesting.
On the other hand, in addition to your weekly "the IS300 is the best choice in this segment" comments, you also litter this forum with comments that berate the cars that other enthusiasts love.
How about I just agree with you that the IS300 is the finest car in this segment, and it is superior to all the other cars on the list because they each have at least one of the following failings...
Lack LSD, underpowered, unreliable, FWD, too expensive, not a Lexus, not 50/50 weight distribution, plagued with torque steer, 4 cylinder, automatic, not a premium marque.
"Does it make sense that a car is very popular and has a big hit in it's sales because of :
1. the car doesnt perform well?
2. Bad handling
3. Cant even handle a corner?"
Evidently this is quite true in regards to the Camry and Accord. Hence, I personally base my taste in automobiles on what I like, not on what is the most popular. Again, I am not flaming you or the TL.
Now, there is probably something to be said for those cars that have more demand than supply, and something else to be said for those cars that have more supply than demand. The raw sales totals of any given month for any given model are more or less meaningless, unless you know what business/marketing model the manufacturer has chosen for that model.
The fact that BMW could sell more M3s than it chooses to produce and Acura can sell more TLs with Nav than it can produce tells us nothing more than that the market sees both cars favorably.
Now for example, if BMW is not meeting it's 3-series sales goals since the 04 Acura TL was introduced... that's a different story altogether.
BTW, I have no idea if that is the case. It's probably more like Infiniti success with the G35 hurting the I35. Is Honda seeing demand soften for the V-6 Accord since the TL was introduced? That is just a guess - the price points being so disparate would tend to work against that hypothesis from a microeconomic perspective....
Now my response:
You do know that the IS300 and TSX both weigh about 3250 lbs, right?
You must also know that the IS300 and TSX both do 0-60, 5-60, 1/4 mile, skidpad, and slalom within a hair of each other (in spite of the fact that you once said the IS300 offers "near 330i performance, luxury, and equipment for 325i price").
Surely you will admit that, regardless of layout, the TSX is a fine performance sedan both on the street and at the track.
You should also admit that the subtleties between FWD and RWD, and the inclusion or omission of LSD is more significant to a "sports car" discussion than an "entry-lux performance sedan" discussion, since neither issue is a factor until you're driving above 8/10ths.
Now, if you simply prefer the way RWD works and feels, well that's fine. But when you insist that the "small 4-cyl engine" in the Acura "lacks torque," or that "the FWD 4-cyl TSX and 9-3 set the bare minimum for this category," you come across as a car snob putting others down because they drive an "inferior car."
Remember when you peppered that X-Type owner with one-years worth of magazine reviews (from European Car, MT, R&T, C&D) to prove that the X-Type wasn't as good as he thought? How do you think it made him feel?
Remember when you stated that you "Wish we had three boards. One for FWD, one for AWD, and one for RWD. For me, there is no such thing as a "performance" FWDer. That is an oxymoron?"
Why wouldn't you want to compare the TSX, 9-3, 325i, and IS300 on the same board? They are objectively identical in size, luxury, comfort, and performance capabilities. To exclude a car because of its supposed "inferior layout" is akin to wanting the black kids to sit in the back of the school bus because you don't want to be seen associating with them.
Anyways, I know it's easy to misinterpret comments posted here because you don't "hear" what they're saying. Again, I apologize if I have misunderstood your intentions and taken them too personally...just consider that I may not be the only one who feels this way.
Bull. Straight up. I owned a Jetta 1.8T which is lighter than an A4 and it was a slow car. I've driven every A4 type - not including the obviously different S4, and the A4 just doesn't have any guts.
What's slow? Anything that takes more than 6, 6.5 seconds to hit 60. If you take 7 seconds to hit 60, then the car has average power. What's average? Falling into the 80-40% percentile which is in my book the same as failing. If the Altima and Accord can scamper to 60 in under 7, I expect so can a sports sedan.
The TL's handling is certainly better than mediocre.
Heck it supposedly handles better than a TSX and I thought the TSX was a sharp handling little car.
The C230K engine is not small.
The 230 is just not up to snuff, IMHO. To each his own.
Let's face it, no one car is better than another car here, so stop trying to convince everyone that the IS300 is the cat's meow. For you, it may be, but I took a pass...different strokes.
I agree with that. Some people feel they must bring up sales numbers to justify what they like. This akin to looking to mags and saying, "X writer in XX mag says it's good too." Great for the other buyers and "professionals." Does that mean those of us who didn't pick the "experts" choice (the TL according to some, the BMW to others) or choose the car 7000 people bought last month, we've made the wrong decision? How can it be a bad decision if we're happy with what we own?
There's a weird vibe on this board and it seems to come from a desire by some people to have the "cool" car or to pick the car 5 out of 6 dentists would own. What's wrong with loving what we bought?
BTW, I'm glad there's a TSX owner here mentioning that great car...
Wow, to dream to be like everybody else. That's something special! Sales do not equate to quality. Simple as that. If anything the high sales of an Acura could be sign that the car is welcomed by the majority of americans...you know, the obese (stats speak for themselves), lazy (tend to prefer automatic trannies) people who suck up all the natural resources of the world. The same people who made the SUV king.
Popularity is a double-edged sword. Ubiquity can certainly hurt a brand. But then again, we already know not many people even view Acura as a luxury brand...
Compared to "most" cars on the road, the statements I made are basically correct. It is only in a discussion such as this that a 1.8L engine could be considered small, and the A4 1.8T slow.
I just thought I'd add a little perspective to point out that all of these cars are exceptional.
As for sales figures, I'm still on the fence there. I basically agree with you, with the caveat that if two cars of similar class, price and capabilities are released on the same date, and are produced at the same rate, and have the same advertising budget and company promoting them, then I suppose if one outsells the other by 50%, it is probably statistically significant. Other than that, it's just another nice-to-know figure.
The more people post about sales numbers, the more I sense this has little to do with personal feelings on the car. Otherwise, why even mention sales numbers?
BTW, as I've stated before, the TL is a likely replacement for my car, so lay of the shtick that somehow you're one upping one of those evil BMW owners. Unlike many here, I have no sworn allegiance to brand, make or model. I buy what makes me smile the most...
People can say whatever they like but those sales number is the fact. 330i's owner may not worry about this (Either the car will be the last model or it is a dying breed) but the manufacturer will. They will have to IMPROVE the car so they can keep up.
Do you think those 7k ppl dont enjoy the car? lol. Fortunately they are silent.
Camry/accord/burger has nothing to do with entry-level luxury performance bcuz they are in different market segment. Price does prevent those Accord/camry buyers from buying. Everybody prefer good handling, good performance, good features. I am not saying TL has it all.
Do you like a burger that has good handling, features and performance?, fastest in 0-60,0-100,1/4mile? :-)
Do you like a burger that has voice command and navigation?:-)
Do you like a burger that has leather or hard top/moonroof?:-)
I bet the answer would be from a different market segment/planet and it will take a while. :-)
If the car manufacturer were satisfied with 400 buyer's satisfaction then they would not improve
Better to know how much to capacity the plants are, how many units the manufacturer planned on selling, how many units the manufacturer can make.
But it doesnt work with new product. New product may have those limitations, limited plant/factory, limited dealership/service station and also the need to survive but for sales purposes in that price range of sweet $30-40k, which manufacturer that doesnt have a plan to sell more.
It might work for Limited edition cars, very expensive cars where only a few people in this world can buy. But for $30-40k entry-level luxo sedan the market is more than 28k.
Are you saying that BMW's plants dont have enough capacity to make or doesnt plan to sell the car, or the manufacturer can only make 400 cars a month? they must've set the wrong pricing policy
I do not believe that for one second. Not for an instant. Purchase patterns do not indicate buyers are getting the vehicle they feel is best. GM sells millions more cars per year than anyone else; by sheer numbers then, your argument stands that the buyers snapping up GM products are then making some kind purchasing statement about GM quality. If anything the buyers enter knowing their car is of lesser quality than more expensive counterparts.
Do you think those 7k ppl dont enjoy the car? lol. Fortunately they are silent.
I think they bought what fit what they wanted and value played a big role. If the TL were priced the same as its competition I'm confident they wouldn't move 7k in a month.
Camry/accord/burger has nothing to do with entry-level luxury performance bcuz they are in different market segment.
It's all the same. Product. Product sales do not indicate that option is the nebulous "best" in a market only that some aspects of the that product appealled to more people. Great, Jack [non-permissible content removed]: The Movie was the top film for a weekend and made buckets of money. The quality is questionable, the appeal undeniable.
Price does prevent those Accord/camry buyers from buying. Everybody prefer good handling, good performance, good features. I am not saying TL has it all.
Yes value plays a role. There's a reason Wal-Mart is huge in the US. The TL is a great value for features and abilites. 33k for a car that's pretty much on par with say a 43k BMW? That's a great deal! Does it mean it's the "best"? No. Only that people saw a 10k savings and perceived there's not much difference. They jumped on a slammin' deal.
Do you like a burger that has good handling, features and performance?, fastest in 0-60,0-100,1/4mile? :-)
Product is product. You may have different criteria for judging a car v. your food but in the end, you buy what fits that criteria. 55 billion people can eat at a Mickey D's. Good for them. Millions bought a GM last year. Great. If we go exclusively by popularity, then what happens to individuality and personal preference? Studios didn't used to release top money makers of each week? They figured out that buyers are lemmings and being the top money maker and announcing it meant more people would be inclined to see the "best" film the next weekend.
Ads for cars do the same things. "Best selling mid-size SUV", "Best selling korean car with a V6", etc. For a reason I can never comprehend, they pray on a concept if a majority prefers something it must be good. To each his own.
Do you like a burger that has voice command and navigation?:-)
Navi's a rip off. Straight up. $200-300 in parts and software resold for a $1700 profit. Cars are made for profit but one item shouldn't generate that kinda dough.
A product is a product, if a car manufacturer thinks that way, why bother producing different cars, pricings, ideas, features, or exclusiveness. A car is a car, a product is a product no matter how advance is technology, who cares how boring this world is. Why bother specifying a specific segment like "Entry Level Luxury performance sedan". Wow (generalization of different product and market segment) out of this world. I got to go. later
Think we both like numbers. Using recent C&D data for IS300 (3/04--7 car comparison test) and TSX (7/03--full road test), both with manual transmissions and tires that are 17 inch and 215mm wide:
MSRP as tested: $31, 944 IS300 vs $28,990 TSX
Weight: 3,380 lbs vs 3,246
0-60 mph: 7.3 secs vs 7.2
5-60 mph: 7.8 secs vs 7.7
1/4 mile: 15.7 @ 90 mph vs 15.6 @ 91 mph
30-50 mph: 8.6 secs vs 10.2
50-70 mph: 8.3 secs vs 9.7
70-0 braking: 167 ft vs 185
Lane change: 64.7 mph (best in test) vs no data
skidpad: .88g vs .85
Top speed: 139 mph vs 133
The TSX's lighter weight and dragstrip-like 4.70:1 final drive certainly helps acceleration (vs. IS300's 3.73:1). Top gear times impacted by the depth of overdrive: the TSX's 6th is a very deep .66 overdrive vs IS300's .85.
But compare to some Automobile (10/03) data, both manual transmissions--IS300 then TSX
0-60 mph: 7.0 secs vs. 8.1
0-100 mph: 18.7 secs vs 21.l
0-110 mph: 23.0 secs vs 26.6
1/4 mile: 15.4 secs @ 92 mph vs 16.1 @ 89 mph
30-70 mph: 8.8 secs vs 8.6
70-0 braking: 183 ft vs 183
The differences in acceleration numbers are quite interesting. Go figure.
CTS.
A product is a product, if a car manufacturer thinks that way,
Be it McDonald's, Spielberg, J Crew or Acura...they're still trying to do the same thing: sell you something you really don't need. They want to create a desire. Some do it through straight value (Mcdonald's) in that segment, others through brand name recognition (J crew, nike, ralph lauren) and still others through features and value - Acura one price for everything.
The TSX is definitely at a disadvantage in top gear acceleration tests due to its gearing (you can really see this effect in the 270 hp TL's top gear figures!).
The reason why the TSX was excluded from the recent C&D comparo is because it was a "$35,000 sedan comparo" and the TSX is only $26,500. I honestly think (must admit some bias here) the TSX would have scored higher than the TL because of it's overall better balance and lack of handling vices.
I hadn't seen the Automobile numbers, but I think they look a little conservative. There's always going to be some variation from test to test but, I've owned several 8 second 0-60 cars over the years, and the TSX isn't one of them.
You have to keep in mind that each magazine has its own test methodologies. C&D, RT, MT, etc. do tell readers how they test (e.g., if they use high RPM drop clutch) and whether they adjust for atmospheric conditions. For example, C&D adjusts; R&T doesn't.
C&D: "Acceleration: Test vehicle is loaded with driver, full tank of fuel, and 10 pounds of test instrumentation. With manual-transmission cars, wheelspin or clutch slip or both are used at the starting line to make best use of the engine's power characteristics and the vehicle's traction. All upshiftss are lift-throttle with the clutch disengaged. ... various shift points are tried to maximize performance. ... All performance results are corrected to standard atmospheric conditions."
R&T: "Acceleration numbers are obtained using drop-clutch starts and lift-throttle shifts." Discusses how they don't adjust for conditions and that a statistically-significant result in "0-60 mph, 0.3 sec."
Best way to aggregate the data is to average all published test results.
blueguydotcom... Those are the published as-tested MSRPs. For the record, TSX from 7/03 issue and IS300 from 3/04 issue...
TSX-- Base: $26,990. As-tested: $28,990. Only option is nav system.
IS300-- Base: $29,980. As-tested: $31,944. One option is LSD. (The IS300 is an '04.)
0-60 mph: 7.9 secs
0-100 mph: 20.8 secs
1/4 mile: 16.0 secs @ 88.8 mph
60-0 mph braking: 124 ft
Slalom: 62.3 mph
Leaves an average: (8.1 + 7.9 + 7.2)/3= 7.73 secs. The 7.2 appears to be the odd data point out.
Yeah, I didn't like that one either...LOL!
Don't get mad, but as I've said before, the TSX's small naturally aspirated 2.4L I4 just doesn't generate a ton of HP (and what it does do it needs high RPMs to do) and generates way less torque (esp. useable torque down low).
Has anyone ever seen a published test result for a TSX automatic? Wonder if it pushes 9 secs. 0-60 mph?
Seriously though, the general consensus is that the TSX 6-speed is a low-to-mid seven second car and the automatic adds about 1/2 second to that. Seems about right to me.
As for the small & lacking power comments, I guess it depends on what you're comparing it too. Of course the 2.4L I-4 has a displacement and power deficit compared to Nissan's 3.5 L VQ motor. What car in this segment doesn't (besides the TL)?
But compared to all the rest (Audi 3.0L, BMW 2.5L, Lexus 3.0L, Saab 2.0L, M-B 1.8L, Jaguar 3.0L), it appears that the TSX'S 200 hp stacks up just fine.
The recent C&D $35,000 sedan comparo that you mentioned had the 325i as the 3rd fastest car behind the G35 and TL (no surprise there). Consider how close the TSX and 325i are...
Remember this torque chart?
rpm 325i TSX
2000 150 149
2500 160 156
3000 168 160
3500 176 162
4000 173 164
4500 169 166
5000 172 163
5500 167 162
6000 161 159
6500 142 155
7000 --- 150
The TSX's "little 4 cylinder motor" is very close to the BMW's I-6, which explains why the TSX runs just a 1/10th or two behind the 325i in most acceleration tests (which is also where the IS300 ran in that C&D comparo).
Also notice that the Honda I-4 offers 90% of peak torque (166) from 2000 RPM all the way to 7000 RPM...that's a 5000 RPM-wide powerband to play with! How many cars can make that claim?
So let me agree with you up to a point. The TSX engine is small and underpowered compared to the G35 and TL. Compared to every other car in this segment, it's a force to be reckoned with.
Oh, the price certainly helped make the TSX more palatable too. 26k (yes it was offered to me at 26k BEFORE I even attempted to haggle) v. a stripped 325i that was still hovering over 30k with discounts.