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did you forget the title of the topic? Apparently you did. How bout taking another look at the top of the board to remind yourself. The CTS-V, modified or not, is NOT an entry level luxo sports sedan. And, once again, NOTHING in this class is a supercar. Can it be made to perform like one with enough money? Of course. I can make a toaster beat the heck out of an M3 with enough money. But neither would fall into this category.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Just looked... and now you're telling me a CTS-V is not a CTS. Now that's absurd!! I suppose a 330i is also not a 3-Series? Different motor, sports packages are there also.
The barrier here has been price, but I've also shown how to get a CTS-V for less than many of the cars in this topic, even provided the link, so that's out the window. But hey, when you can't compete, you deny and say it doesn't fall into the category. Utter nonsense.
"Can it be made to perform like one with enough money? I can make a toaster beat the heck out of an M3 with enough money. But neither would fall into this category."
Again, at the top of this category it says "CTS". The CTS-V is a CTS. You can get one for less than $40K. And to top it off, now you claim you can make a toaster perform like one with enough money, yet you produced neither the toaster, or the mythical car.
Fish or cut bait... where's the CAR?
"Where's the CAR?"
Quote from a website that townhall rules prohibit me from linking -
"The team had only ninety days to prepare a stock TL to NASA Honda Challenge specifications. While the engine, drivetrain and brake system remained stock, the team augmented the TL's 3.2 liter V6 with a cold air intake, and a custom exhaust header from Prototype Racing. A large diameter exhaust, a lightweight flywheel and a performance clutch were provided by Comptech USA. The suspension was modified with custom H&R coil-overs, a Progress adjustable rear sway bar and adjustable SPC camber ball joints and links. Lightweight Enkei racing wheels and Toyo RA-1 race compound tires were used for increased grip..."
That's a FWD luxury sedan with stock engine, drivetrain and brakes - and it finished 3rd in a 25-hour endurance race against Porsche's, BMW's, and Cobra's.
"The CTS-V is #1 at both Road & Track and Automobile."
So what's that got to do with the $33,000 CTS (3.6L) we're talking about in this forum? The Saleen Cobra is an awesome car, but does that make the V-6 Mustang your sister drives a top-notch sport coupe?
Seriously, let's just leave the CTS-V (and that ridiculous, $120,000 Mallet) out of this discussion, OK?
In my opinion, the TL is a fine choice in this segment for someone who wants solid 8/10ths handling, a great engine/powertrain, and top quality materials and amenities. The CTS (again in my opinion) may offer 9/10ths handling, but in a package that is larger (it has the wheelbase of a Range Rover!), short on amenities, and has sub-par material quality and polarizing styling.
The bottom line is - both the Acura TL and Cadillac CTS are fine $33,000 choices. The "better" car is simply the one that possesses the characteristics that each of us value on an individual basis.
To dismiss the TL because of it's FWD layout is just as absurd as dismissing the CTS because of it's unconventioanl styling. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but that doesn't make it inferior.
The CTS-V is not one of them and it generally is more expensive and of a different class than the cars we are talking about. As I noted in that message I just linked, anyone is free to find or start another comparo if this one does not suit your purposes.
Note that there is only room for six vehicles in the categories you are seeing above; that's why they don't all appear there.
Things are getting a little too personal here - we can disagree with each other without getting ugly about it. Let's reel in the emotion a bit please.
That's far different than passing all Federal standards. Sorry, your example doesn't pass muster.
"Seriously, let's just leave the CTS-V out of this discussion, OK?"
From every criteria I see here, it's in... I provided the under $40K price link - in fact the last new '04 at my local lealer had a $42K sticker in the windshield, certainly not out of this subject's price range.
Can I help it if the others have too little performance for too much money?
No it is not. I assume you were composing as I was posting.
Let's move on now, thank you.
A 3.6L engine that can only produce a 255hp is too little performance? YES especially if the car cant go under 6 in 0-60
Too much money?
Try to equip all features that TL has, CTS 3.6's prices will shoot to the roof. That is why less people vote with their wallet on that car.
Please brush up on your automotive perspective. Kinda like comparing the Chevy Monte Carlo with its NASCAR 4th-cousin twice removed raced on Sunday's!!
Back to reality... the TL is certainly competitive to the G, 3-Series, CTS, etc... it just offers it's own distinct interpretation of the automotive experience to suit drivers that find those characteristics to be valuable. Good thing that variation exists to please ALL of us... competition also helps to improve the lot.
Just finished reading the Bmw write-up in the Wall St Journal today. And to me, it seems they have just placed what has been known for a while in the public domain. Issues like Styling, I-Drive, reliability and competition, namely G35 and CTS(price?)was discussed in this article. I guess bimmer fans, and passive fans like myself and of course detractors have always known this to be the case, (we've certainly debated those same issues in these forums quite a bit).
I certainly did not get the impression the article was mean to inflame. It pointed out Bmw sales were up world-wide. And in 2003 it made $3.5billion in profit, more than GM, Ford, Volkswagen, and Renault combined. However it's U.S market share had dropped due to these same issues and also changing demographics.
While I am passively in the market(I just paid off my 2000 Mazda Millennia S)If I decide to pull the trigger, M35sport, G35, TL and Jaguar would be my order of preference. As I pointed out earlier, while I am a passive fan, the price of the 3series and it's size simply don't do it for me.
By the by, did anyone see the Car and Driver marathon this weekend on Spike TV?
Nice letter!
:-)
one more thing, is the pastel green interior available for USspec x5?
ive been checking the x5 forums but no answers so far...
I don't want to pay the $38k or so that I configured it for and I know that there are deals out there on GM vehicles. I read somewhere that somebody got $7,500 or so in rebates & incentives.
Also, what do y'all think about that comparison of the TL and the CTS? I know the FWD vs. RWD will be the major factor for some, but if you can try to rule that out please do.
Thanks.
Of course, that is just my opinion..lol
The big one.. resale.. If you think you will sell that car anytime within 5 years, you will be many thousands ahead with the Acura..
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Drive 'em both, figure out your priorities and buy. Whichever you buy is the best car.
YMMV.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
That is also one thing that turned me off when I test-drove a Saab 9-3 before deciding on the 325. The instrument panel of the Saab was very complex-looking -- dozens of buttons -- and with the display for the radio and that other display up under the windshield, it definitely didn't do it for me. I really like the external styling, and the car drove & performed well, but I couldn't see myself enjoying the view from the business seat!
It appears that the CTS is just as big as the TL. I understand that the fit and finish is not as good in the CTS. I like the exterior styling of the CTS. One problem is that the Acura dealer is 60 miles away and the Cadillac dealer is 2 miles away. That is a big deal to me. I also am feeling pretty patriotic these days and am leaning to the CTS, a car i would of never looked at a year ago.
It really is tough. On paper the Acura wins and on the interior the Acura wins. I prefer the Caddy exterior to the TL exterior.
The Acura is cheaper on MSRP as well, but I am wondering if the street price of the CTS is probably much less than the MSRP. It has to be. So, a $38k CTS probably costs you $32k or so is what I am thinking. Does anyone here know?
I am looking to lease, not buy so that changes things a little bit.
2) 2 miles vs. 60 miles to the dealer is another real benefit..
3) The lease deals on TLs right now are just standard rates.. no manufacturer support.. So, maybe not that great.
4) Not sure of the lease deals on the CTS, but something tells me, that the price difference will pretty much disappear if you are leasing.. Maybe, even lower on the CTS.
regards,
kyfdx
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I've not been stranded (we're getting another 8-10" on top of the 30" of snow we got in Boston this weekend!) nor spun, but I think that is a combination of my snow driving experience and the TLs traction electronics (TC, VSA, ABS). I'm somewhat upset with these tires (I think they flatspot, also).
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Now, as a daily driver, that's not the #1 criteria, but i'm not interested in a car that doesn't make me smile. That's just my own personal preference. OTOH this is a sport sedan topic.
I am the only that was that shocked by the interior. How on earth did the CTS beat the 530, A6, Jag, E320 in the Road and Track comparison of the 6 cylinders?
The G otoh has better handling (imo based on its RWD setup) but it comes with tougher ride. Well, it depends on your priorities thou. But if you choose a RWDer, dont forget to get winter tires (if you live in snow area). Believe me you wont regret it.
Good luck.
As I said earlier, the actual driving is probably (since I haven't driven one) the CTS saving grace. The exterior, while it has grown on me and isn't Aztek-ugly, still is too overdone for my tastes.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
thanks,
All the other import luxury brands offer or will offer a base version offering about 200 hp. I see no reason why Infiniti should not.
Audi: A4 1.8
BMW: 325i
Mercedes: C240
Lexus: IS250 (coming soon)
Acura: TSX
They could use the V6 VQ25DE used in the Japanese Fuga (U.S. M) 250GT, making 210hp at 6000rpm, and 197 torque at 4400rpm.
Obviously, it won't feel as powerful as the G35, but it will have a lighter steering feel, better balance, and be more gas efficient as well.
It'll probably do 0-60 in about 7.0 seconds with auto trans, which won't be that bad.
South of that line, the topography is very hilly, and even though this area gets less snow, it is much more difficult to navigate slick areas.. North of that line, most of the area is flat as a billiard table.. and, unless the snow is drifting, it really isn't that hard to navigate..
There are lots of exceptions, but I hope this helps explain why people in Detroit or Chicago might not need snows, but people in Cincinnati might require them.
regards,
kyfdx
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I've spent the last dozen years on the east coast, and given the hilly nature of the local topology, winter tires become even more important. I survived with All-Season rubber in the NYC metro area, however, there were a number of days where I needed to be on the roads, and those tires made for a serious white knuckle trip. The winter tires I'm currently running have made such a dramatic transformation in the drivability of my car that I doubt seriously if I'll ever not opt for winter tires again.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Ultimately, you are correct. However, as a life-long New Englander and skier (Vermont primarily, but now that I'm in Boston, Maine and New Hampster too), I've always done just fine with front-wheel drive, all-season tires and a bit of winter driving common sense. This is one reason I've stuck with FWD and never felt the need for AWD. That's why I'm so disappointed with the Bridgestones' performance in the snow, I may need to buy snow tires! If I knew I was going to need snows, I may have gone RWD.
The TCS/VSA & ABS have kept me going in the desired direction, so I'm not going to spring for snows (or better rated in the snow all seasons) yet. See how I do the rest of this winter.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I was actually out in Columbus, Oh. just after Christmas and had no problems with the RS-A's even in water on top of ice (G35X).
Back here in NYC, I had no real problems in our recent "blizzard". The only time I was wishing for winter tires was when I was trying to park, or leave my parking space. I just turned on Snow Mode and turned off the VDC. A lot of rocking back and forth was required.
I realize that all-season tires are at best a compromise. The AWD is best for getting going and helps in turns, but AWD doesn't do anything for stopping in the snow.
I wish that the Infiniti wheels were not so expensive, as I would have a dedicated set of winter tires in the original size. I'd prefer Pirelli Sotto Zero or Dunlops, as I feel that they would last longer than Blizzaks. Too bad Nokkia or Gislaved don't make winter tires in this size.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Please send your daytime contact info to jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, February 11, 2005.
I'd think the TL would be the slowest off-the-line b/c of the low-end torque, but, frankly, it's plenty-fast for me. With the manual, the clutch engages really early, so that might help (not sure). Overall, they're all fast. Since I don't live near an Autobahn-type road, the TL was the clear winner b/c of the luxury features. TL also got the best crash-test ratings, and I think consumer reports ranks it higher than the others.
As an aside, if you are even just considering navigation, go with the Acura and get it. The system is amazing - totally integrated with a/c and radio, so you can do a lot w/o taking your eyes off the road or hands off the wheel. Plus, if you know the phone number of your destination, you can program a route without your hands leaving the wheel. You can also use it instead of calling "info" - type in the store you want and it's name, address and phone # come up so you can call them. It's fantastic. One of those things you don't realize how neat it is until you have it.
In my opinion, it's just not worth sacrificing performance to save a mere $2.50 a tankfull.
Unfortunately...
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than an a4 1.8T.
dave