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Well, i've never had anyone express anything negative to me about BMW owners either.
I did have one person at work stop talking to me after he saw i had a "new" 3 series, but he was just working through a case of serious toy envy. I don't think it would have been different if i had a acura or infiniti, but i don't know that for a fact of course.
I think it's silly to buy a BMW because of the badge, but you know what? People buy BMW's mercedes, acuras, lexus, mercurys, chevys, pontiacs, toyotas, subarus, etc for the badge as well. I don't see how this should sway you in any specific direction.
dave
I dunno, I wanted a sporty rear-drive sedan, and the 3-Series was a little too small, the 5 Series was a little too expensive, but the G35 was just right!
I drove a 545i six speed on the street at a BMW Driving Experience , and it felt great-not flogging it-just driving normally. Yes, the I-Drive was a pain, but I sure could get used to it.
Looked at the '06 3 Series the other day- still kind of tight, but really nice looking. A few friends own BMW's and they all love them. To each their own.
"In the 80s and 90s Yuppies made BMW a symbol of greed, selfishness, conspicuous consumption (not at hummer levels but close) and new wealth." Or did Hollywood and Marketing enterprises do that?
Here in the Boston area, BMWs probably outnumber Hyundai's, very common. Growing up in one of the wealthiest places on earth (without me personally being wealthy) prior to moving to The Home of the World Champion Red Sox and Patriots ( ), I can't ever remember a comment or discussion "stigmatizing" anyone I knew with a BMW. The only converstaions I remember are how much fun they were to drive and how expensive and often they required maintenance. Or maybe I just care less what other people think. It's my money, my life, my choice. When someone else wants to buy me a car, then I'll let them have a say in it...
I drive an '05 TL. Could I have bought a 3, 5, C or an E? Yup (or even a Bentley. But then I'd still have to work long after I'd passed away...!). But I bought the car I wanted, given the parameters I set for myself. Have I ever heard someone say, "Oh, a TL. Couldn't afford a BMW, huh?" Nope. I suppose "they" could be thinking it, but then again I don't think I know any of "they" nor would I care if that is what "they" were thinking.
To each. If you deny yourself choice simply because of what "they" may or may not be thinking, have fun finding contentment. Although I often think "non-car" people are more content. "Hey, it gets me there and didn't cost an arm and a leg! Now I'm off to my second home in The Hamptons after visiting both my kids at Harvard and picking up my new Patek...!"
Sorry, started rambling! Enjoy your ride, no matter what it is!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Let's get back to the cars that fit this category and forego the observations about personalities, who can afford what, etc., and let's just assume that people choose the vehicle that suits their criteria - whatever those criteria may be - judgement of same not required. :confuse:
Thanks.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans discussions...
Enjoying the TL, hope to put coat four of Zaino on today.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Going along with your logic, why would the very people who are despised for buying BMWs mock the stigma of the car? That's like saying you lived among gang bangers and never heard anyone say slammed caddies on bling rims were for punks. That's to be expected.
Ya can't swing a dead cat in San Diego or Granite Bay, CA (my hometown) without hitting several BMWs. I'll stick with my theory that most BMW owners are exactly what I described. They're not buying for performance or fun-to-drive characteristics...they're buying for so-called prestige. As that one guy said, to him the BMW says to the world "I made it." The massive proliferation of steptronic 325s says it all. But to each his own.
Still don't think the TL/G35 come with a stigma. If they do, it's a stigma of frugality, which is hardly a negative thing.
Why did you choose TL over 325? Price wise I think they are more or less the same. Am I right? Yes TL is a bit more powerful according to the hours power specs, but bmw is a bit more luxury. What was you deciding factor?
Mike
P.S. to blueguydotcom: YES, I MADE IT (can barely afford it, but still made it.) And proud of it. And enjoy every second behind the wheel with the shiny BMW logo in its center.
About reliability. I still don’t understandwhy people say that BMW and MB are not very reliable. I ma not familiar with official statistics but I tell you that before I drove Mitsubishi Galant. And I also heard a lot of “non reliable” comments about this brand of cars. At that time (1997) it was the only car I could afford to buy new. And I must say it behaved perfect. With regular normal care for the car I did not have any real problems. So, my suspicion is that maybe it is just a few individual who unfortunately had some problems with MB and/or BMW and made a big deal out of it? Am I wrong or someone has reliable official statistics about it?
mike
Thank you.
I always agree with Pat...
Besides, when people start talking about how much money they make, and what they can afford, I get depressed...
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Others would say that stuff is no big deal. So if CR were to contact me they'd hear my car broke down. A hardcore fan of a company might say both those things were covered under warranty and aren't really indicative of the reliablity. Shrug.
While the financially responsible thing to do is to pick up an off-lease vehicle, I've done a number of business trips to Germany, and can't think of anything better than driving my own new ED XXX to the places I've learned to love.
OTOH, the Infiniti M is very interesting, so long as I'm willing to do without the manual and the fold-down rear seat.
Oh, wait, those are the only two things I care about, besides something resembling luxury.
Perhaps BMW does know what it's doing.
My prefrences are for a Luxury/Sport sedan (TL) as opposed to Sport/Luxury (325). Also, as a lifelong skier and denizen of the mountains of Vermont, New Hampster and Maine I prefer front wheel drive. I'll give up the 9 or 10/10ths handling advantages of RWD for the traction (and packaging) of FWD. The TL handles very well for my tastes. Having said that, the tires on the base TL are TERRIBLE in the snow! That'll teach me. I considered a 325x/330x but I decided I didn't need the added weight and complexity of AWD. I've gotten along just fine without AWD lo these many years in the snow/mountains. Not to mention my New England frugality just wouldn't let me spend so much more for the BMW, especially since I knew the '06 were on the way. Similarly equipped, the TL is less money. Had I really wanted the 3, I would have bought it and I'm sure loved it. But, for me, the TL was a bertter car and value. I also shopped the G35 and Mercedes E320 ( a different animal, I know, but it is such an appealing car to me. Again, I just didn't see the value proposition).
Of course now with 20/20 hindsight and a N.E. winter behind me, a rwd 3 with decent all-seasons would probably have better traction than my TL with the Bridgestones (they're supposedly all-seasons as long as none of the seasons include snow) in the snow! The best laid plans...
Anyway, had I gone with any of the other ELLPS I'm sure I would have been just as happy as I am with the TL. A wonderful class of cars, tough decision. You really can't go wrong.
Oh, yeah. Frisconick: Will you adopt me and buy me an Aston Martin, Daddy?
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
this may sound crazy ,330i is the better car but is300 exterior is superior IMHO
FYI guys, i drive a G35, but i could probably afford a G35 w/ the nav.....
And i could probably afford an aston martin, but id also have to live in it as well and eat only one meal per day
I think the question should be... Is the BMW worth $5K more?
And, if it isn't $5K more, then the price of the Lexus is too much...
regards,
kyfdx
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How 'bout a nice gun-metal gray? I'll even help you with your new car dilemma by giving you a good deal on my Abyss Blue TL. Once I've got the Aston, of course...
Now you weren' just kiddin' me, were you Dad? :surprise:
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Frisco: Actually, I'd like to keep my TL for daily fun. The Aston would be for weekend fun. Why do I want an Aston? Why did I want the TL? Why does anybody want anything? Because it would fulfill some need, want and desire deep within my inner-being. And chicks would dig me...
Odessit: Hands off, I asked first!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Thank you!
"Could you rephrase your comment within the context of the discusstion title?"
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Finally there's no hesitation to question a BMW's value. It almost seemed people are afraid to question BMW's, since it's been foolishly jamed into minds...BMW's are "high performance, high quality...". Mostly by magazines(press), friends(who like the label), and the high price to own.
But as these posts say, it's mostly opinion, and actually, BMW's probably aren't worth the high price for similar performance.
One thing I still don't see many people admitting, is BMW, Benzes, and Audi's low reliability and high cost of maintanance. I feel this is in the direction of pride. No one likes to admit cost paid, vs more cost spent to maintain.
And it is fact, BMW's do break down more then average,
consumeraffairs.com/news03/jdpower.html little old (2003)
benz clsdiff class
2002
and it does cost more once it's in shop (vs Asian, US brands). Of course it depends who drives, but when the car is in the shop, pull out the wallet.
Ahhh, buy the naysayers will say, "Oh yeah! Well just look at the statistics referenced in the above post. You'll see that Toyota has 196/PP100 vs. BMWs 262/PP100 rating."
Uh-huh, well personally both numbers look pretty damn good to me, and furthermore, comparing the full North American BMW line (all fairly complex performance/luxury cars) to the full line of Toyotas (starting with no/low option strppo econo-boxes with far fewer components to fail) seems to be a bit disingenuous if you ask me. To my way of thinking at least, a much more fair comparison would be Lexus vs. BMW, and while I haven't seen those numbers in a while, if memory serves, the gap was much narrower. Even still, the report shows that for every four problems reported by a Toyota owner, a BMW owner will report roughly five. So much for being “unreliable”. I did find it interesting to note that BMW and a few other European manufacturers were singled out in the following quote: “Porsche, Jaguar, Saab and BMW perform well above the industry average in dependability ” as being quite reliable.
Another knock that I continually read about BMWs is that they cost a lot of money to maintain. That too is pure fabrication. The only out of pocket expense a late model BMW owner should experience for the first 50,000 miles is tires. Period, full stop, the end. Everything else is covered under the full maintenance program. Once a car has enough miles and/or years to no longer be covered under the maintenance program, they seem pretty reasonable to maintain, especially given their very long service intervals called for in the Owner's Manual. Basically, change the oil every year or 15,000 miles, change the brake fluid every two years and the coolant every three or four years (IIRC). As for the scheduled "Services", those occur every 30,000 miles, and while the cost can range from $600 to over $1,000, when you consider the number of miles that cost gets amortized over, it just ain't that much money.
Said another way, my bet is that if you were to do an "Apples to Apples" comparison of a new E90 3-Series vs. a new second generation Lexus IS, my bet is that the BMW will cost less money for general maintenance and repair than the Lexus for at least the first 100,000 miles. How much less? Probably not too much, but less is still less.
Me personally, I'm waiting to drive the IS and the E90 back to back, and I'll go with the one I like the best. Their relative reliability and the cost of maintenance is, in my mind at least, not a defining issue.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Uh-huh, so, where are the scientific numbers to back your claim up. Just because I might say, "Car 'X' is the most reliable or the least expensive to drive and maintain" doesn't make it so. The same thing with what you've written; saying it doesn't make it so.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Ah but because of the all inclusive 4 yr/50k warranty, maintaining a bmw comes down to new tires once a year. If you're gonna keep the car for more than 3-4 years then maintenance costs become an issue with any car.
Then again, if one buys a G/TL, you gotta get oil changes, tune-ups and so forth.
So for the millionth time - because you're beating a dead horse - total cost to maintain of my 330i - $2000 over two years. All spent on tires.
I bought a BMW 318ti in August of 1995 and drove it daily for 9-1/2 years putting 112,000 miles on the odometer. In that time I had one (1) mechanical failure -- the ignition switch went out and need to be replaced. I think it cost me something like $275.00, I forget.
I'm sorry, but it would be disingenuous for me to confess to reliability problems I haven't had. I'm not saying that BMW's are problem free (no car is), it's just that reliability ratings can be misleading. Just because it says that the average maintenance cost of a BMW is X amount of dollars, doesn't mean that everyone who buys one is going to wind up spending that amount. I'm sure there is someone out that bought one just like mine that has sworn off BMW forever after the gazillionth trip to the repair shop, but I'm not that guy. Quit accusing us lying just because we won't reinforce your preconceived notions of German car reliability.
Besides, if you look at the numbers closely, it appears that the odds of buying a unreliable new car in the US is pretty slim no matter what make you buy.
And when they are out of warranty, Japanese vehicles cost as much to repair/maintain as German.
Can you say $3K for a transmission?
FWD vs RWD
SCCA Touring Car pts standings
TOP 6: FWD lead points
7/10 FWD lead point standings.
So you think RWD performs better then FWD?
FWD cars regularly outperform RWD. And we're talking prof racing.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
It could happen, ya know?
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'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S