CR is a good source, but it has to be taken a grain of salt. While they don't have an agenda per se, their reviews tend to be on the conservative side. People are volunteering to respond, which is key. Random sampling will reveal the best results. I had a phsycology professor comment on all the behavior studies we were looking at and how they were to apply to the general population. He said in reality, a lot of these studies were done with starving college students who volunteered to be in the study.
The people that respond to CR surveys are subscribers to the report - I would guess them to be a pretty reliable lot - they are not starving college students.
Doesn't matter what kinda tires i put on any car i own, I rarely break 15k miles with a set. Went the potenza (had re's first, then got sa-03s - which were horrible) route on the first two sets and they were gone within 15k miles each time. Going with Kumho on this set...doubt they'll last either.
All maintenance is covered on bmws...brakes, windshield wipers, you name it. The only thing a bimmer owner must pay for is new tires.
So far my car has had e-brake failure, my disa valve is broken (getting replaced soon) and my ignition coils went out. All covered under warranty.
I just had my Inspection I.... that occurs at 30K miles.. At that time, they also replaced the front brakes.. The oil change alone runs $94 if you had to pay for it.. 7 qts of synthetic.. But, there is another 1.5 hours of labor on top of that for all of the checks.. And, they really do them.. they found the brakes needed replacing, plus a window regulator that was ready to go bad... This one service, plus the brake job would have been around $900.... No charge to me...
Add in two more oil services...at 15K and 45K miles... Plus, anything else your car might need...
It is not a minor matter... BMWs are expensive to service at a dealer... The included service is a big factor in the cost of operating the vehicle..
“What kind of tires need to be changed every year?”
The tire wear that blueguy talks about is due in large part to the aggressive wheel alignment of the BMW sport setups. Tires last MUCH longer without the sport suspensions. For instance, a colleague of mine just replaced the tires on his non-sport 530 after a whopping 75k miles.
Performance tires will also wear quicker. The higher the speed rating, the quicker it will wear. Aggressive driving will also cut into tire life, bigtime.
Plenty of Porsche owners typically change tires between 8K-12k miles and it is due to all of the above. They don’t even race their cars, not on a track anyway.
“Doesn't matter what kinda tires i put on any car i own, I rarely break 15k miles with a set.”
Here is CRs report on the TLs driving experience by professional drivers:
The TL's firm ride is well-controlled, with good isolation from bumps. The highway ride is steady, and the cabin is very quiet. The wide turning circle is one of the few negatives. The Acura feels taut and responsive in cornering, with well-contained body lean. The nicely weighted steering is communicative and quick. In emergency-handling tests, the TL demonstrated good tire grip and cornering balance, and it proved secure in our avoidance maneuver, where it posted a quick 52.5-mph. Powered by a smooth 270-hp, 3.2-liter V6, the TL is noticeably quicker than many of its competitors. Even with such high horsepower, the car was largely devoid of torque steer, a tendency for the front wheels to briefly pull the vehicle off its intended line under strong acceleration (common in front-wheel-drive cars). The engine is coupled with a smooth and responsive five-speed automatic transmission. The TL gets a respectable 23 mpg overall and meets Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle standards, which means that it is 50 percent cleaner than the average 2004 model. Braking was very good. :P
Well I guess it depends on where you set your standard, which is one reason I do my own research (ie test drives) and don't depend on magazines, biased or unbiased for information.
How often do you go through brakes? Anyway, I think I have a good idea how you drive. I would also guess that you don't eat quiche.
my brakes last a long time. just sold my protege and they said I had 60% of my pads left and the car had 26k miles on it. My bimmer's brakes are still original too and I've got almost 30k miles on it. just tires...I go through them faster than robert downey jr can finish off a kilo of coke.
And I do eat quiche. My two year old niece loves that stuff.
". Any good scientific experiment tries to eliminate all other variables aside from what you are trying to compare. I may be wrong, but I'm guessing the cars were modified to have, basically, similar power/weight ratios, no?"
No. I explained otherwise, and so did the article i posted links to.
"Well I guess it depends on where you set your standard"
That's exactly right, ive often mentioned car handling can be just as subjective as judging a car's exterior. Ive never driven a TL but it makes sense it was a CR top pick, it has great reliability, a nearly unbeatable standard features package, 270 hp engine, but ultimately it depends where a driver sets his/her standard when it comes to picking a car.
MY SUBJECTIVE OPINION IS THAT THE TL HANDLES GREAT!!!!! I can take turns and on- and off-ramps at a pretty quick speed wihtout feeling body roll or that the tires might lose grip. I'm not a speedster, but I love testing the handling in my TL.
Well... they don't have to justify it... Labor rates are $96/hr..
It isn't any different at Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, etc...
Well.. a little different.. At those dealers, they present you with a bill when you pick up the car... At my dealer, I give the keys to the loaner, they hand me a printout and say "Have a great day!!"
$900. brake change and regular service.. $96/hr, so it costs $900 to change brake+service with lexus, infiniti, mercedes? see wrong point. you might as well walk into the dealer with sign "I like to be ripped off, please charge me $900" for brake change. haha ( still under warranty, does not justify the $ cost) and please "eat" my tires as a suspension design flaw. it's good you owners like to accept these service/maintenance charges. But it's a "___" so it's very worth it. haha
$900 brake change+service
I'm happy owners are paying that, good for the owners.
handling is quite subjective. the magazines praise the cts yet i feel it's floaty and dips wildly in corners. to each his own...
That's exactly my point, I drove the CTS as well and have a contrasting opinion , i thought the handling/steering was quite taut and predictable, very 3 series like in handling i thought.
900 for a brake is kind of high by itself. What is included in the service (besides brake job)? Is it just visual inspection of thing or it is actual change of spark plugs, wires, etc.?
The low end of a luxury manufacturer's offerings. E.g, Infiniti G series but not the M series, BMW 3 series but not the 5 or 7 series, Audi A3 or A4 but not A6 or A8, etc.
Yeah, I know, but I think these "lower end" cars are often superior to the higher end cars. For example, the RL is not $15,000 better than the TL. In fact, I think the TL is superior in fit and finish, looks etc. The BMW 3 series is better than the 5 and 7. And the infiinity G35 coupe is the best car they offer. :P
I think the term "entry-level" is a demeaning at best. I bought a TL because I like the car, not that I couldn't afford an RL. From the side, the RL looks exactly like an Accord. I am considering buying an Infinity, and the G35 coupe is the only Infinity I am considering, I think the M is big fat cluncker. The "entry-level" cars tend to be much more sporty.
All he is saying is that the 3-Series is the bottom of the BMW line just as the Echo is the bottom of the Toyota line.
"Entry-level" may be a "demeaning" term to you, but it's a fairly widespread term used to describe a level that is a cut above average and perhaps a cut below the highest level, at least (in this case) in terms of cost. I don't believe that most folks see it as a demeaning term.
You chose the TL and you are very happy with your choice even though, as you say, you could have purchased something more expensive. The reality is that the the TL competes with vehicles in a "class" that is a cut below the more expensive offerings of the same manufacturers. That is not an insult, it's just a reality.
However, just because a car is cheaper, does not make it inferior. In fact, the TL is probably superior in most respects to any American car, regardless of price. I have test driven the RL and thought the luxury of the TL was it's equal, and roominess was the same. :P
The point I was trying to make and evidently did not is just what you said - because a car is cheaper does not make it inferior. And there is nothing about the term "entry-level" that implies inferior in my estimation.
But the reality is that there is a more expensive class of vehicles. That fact does not mean this class is inferior.
The Mini is to BMW what Saab is to GM. While the Mini has won many awards and people who drive the car like it, it is not a BMW by heritage, just like a Saab is not a GM by heritage.
"Entry level" is really a term made up by marketers, who really would like to see you "move up" to their next higher and higher (read "more expensive) models the next time you buy. It really does not cost all that much more to manufacture say a 5-series over a 3-series, but since the price tag on the 5-series can be a lot higher, there is a lot more profit in it for the company. That's also why the car companies are in love with selling $50K SUVs -- that's where most of their profits come from.
But keep in mind that, for many of us, one person's "entry level" car is another person's "ideal" car. I am quite happy with my 325i and am also still living in the "starter home" that we bought 23 years ago!
"Entry level" as a marketing ploy, yeah, never thought of it that way before. But you are correct, I am sure. However, I can afford a much more expensive car, but as soon as I saw, and test drove, the TL, I was hooked.
Comments
What maintenance is done within the 4/50k period? Mostly oil changes right?
Any tuneups? Any break jobs?
All maintenance is covered on bmws...brakes, windshield wipers, you name it. The only thing a bimmer owner must pay for is new tires.
So far my car has had e-brake failure, my disa valve is broken (getting replaced soon) and my ignition coils went out. All covered under warranty.
BMWs don't require tuneups until 100k miles?
How long will brakes last before the pads are replaced? That's probably pretty pricey. I don't think you'd have any old shop work on your BMW brakes.
Add in two more oil services...at 15K and 45K miles... Plus, anything else your car might need...
It is not a minor matter... BMWs are expensive to service at a dealer... The included service is a big factor in the cost of operating the vehicle..
regards,
kyfdx
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No idea. I leased the car...don't care about its longevity.
How long will brakes last before the pads are replaced? That's probably pretty pricey. I don't think you'd have any old shop work on your BMW brakes.
Many bimmer fanatics are into a few non oem brands for brakes. I'd let my normal mechanic do it, if the car were outside warranty.
The tire wear that blueguy talks about is due in large part to the aggressive wheel alignment of the BMW sport setups. Tires last MUCH longer without the sport suspensions. For instance, a colleague of mine just replaced the tires on his non-sport 530 after a whopping 75k miles.
Performance tires will also wear quicker. The higher the speed rating, the quicker it will wear. Aggressive driving will also cut into tire life, bigtime.
Plenty of Porsche owners typically change tires between 8K-12k miles and it is due to all of the above. They don’t even race their cars, not on a track anyway.
“Doesn't matter what kinda tires i put on any car i own, I rarely break 15k miles with a set.”
Blueguy curious, which other cars have you owned?
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But, his self-described driving style would trash any set of tires in a year..
You are right about the set-up on a 3-series.. It just eats rear tires.... But, I wouldn't change a thing...
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The TL's firm ride is well-controlled, with good isolation from bumps. The highway ride is steady, and the cabin is very quiet. The wide turning circle is one of the few negatives. The Acura feels taut and responsive in cornering, with well-contained body lean. The nicely weighted steering is communicative and quick. In emergency-handling tests, the TL demonstrated good tire grip and cornering balance, and it proved secure in our avoidance maneuver, where it posted a quick 52.5-mph. Powered by a smooth 270-hp, 3.2-liter V6, the TL is noticeably quicker than many of its competitors. Even with such high horsepower, the car was largely devoid of torque steer, a tendency for the front wheels to briefly pull the vehicle off its intended line under strong acceleration (common in front-wheel-drive cars). The engine is coupled with a smooth and responsive five-speed automatic transmission. The TL gets a respectable 23 mpg overall and meets Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle standards, which means that it is 50 percent cleaner than the average 2004 model. Braking was very good. :P
Last 3 cars: 01 Jetta 1.8t (13k average for tires), 03 Protege ES (I got about 16k out of my first set), 03 330i.
;-)
my brakes last a long time. just sold my protege and they said I had 60% of my pads left and the car had 26k miles on it. My bimmer's brakes are still original too and I've got almost 30k miles on it. just tires...I go through them faster than robert downey jr can finish off a kilo of coke.
And I do eat quiche. My two year old niece loves that stuff.
No. I explained otherwise, and so did the article i posted links to.
She goes around corners at 10 MPH.. I go around them at whatever speed I happen to be driving when I get to them.. (her description).
Look, Ma!! No brakes!!
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That's exactly right, ive often mentioned car handling can be just as subjective as judging a car's exterior. Ive never driven a TL but it makes sense it was a CR top pick, it has great reliability, a nearly unbeatable standard features package, 270 hp engine, but ultimately it depends where a driver sets his/her standard when it comes to picking a car.
$900? sounds like you got into an accident.
that's a ridiculus price, even if it is covered under warranty.
there's no justification for that
It isn't any different at Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, etc...
Well.. a little different.. At those dealers, they present you with a bill when you pick up the car... At my dealer, I give the keys to the loaner, they hand me a printout and say "Have a great day!!"
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$96/hr, so it costs $900 to change brake+service with lexus, infiniti, mercedes?
see wrong point.
you might as well walk into the dealer with sign "I like to be ripped off, please charge me $900" for brake change. haha
( still under warranty, does not justify the $ cost)
and please "eat" my tires as a suspension design flaw.
it's good you owners like to accept these service/maintenance charges.
But it's a "___" so it's very worth it. haha
$900 brake change+service
I'm happy owners are paying that, good for the owners.
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That's exactly my point, I drove the CTS as well and have a contrasting opinion , i thought the handling/steering was quite taut and predictable, very 3 series like in handling i thought.
-thedrak
And that $900 bill is probably not as high as repairs and maintenance jobs go.
toyota echo ?
"Entry-level" may be a "demeaning" term to you, but it's a fairly widespread term used to describe a level that is a cut above average and perhaps a cut below the highest level, at least (in this case) in terms of cost. I don't believe that most folks see it as a demeaning term.
You chose the TL and you are very happy with your choice even though, as you say, you could have purchased something more expensive. The reality is that the the TL competes with vehicles in a "class" that is a cut below the more expensive offerings of the same manufacturers. That is not an insult, it's just a reality.
:shades:
However, just because a car is cheaper, does not make it inferior. In fact, the TL is probably superior in most respects to any American car, regardless of price. I have test driven the RL and thought the luxury of the TL was it's equal, and roominess was the same. :P
But the reality is that there is a more expensive class of vehicles. That fact does not mean this class is inferior.
Okay? :-)
I learn a lot from some of the boards -- others are mostly for entertainment.
But keep in mind that, for many of us, one person's "entry level" car is another person's "ideal" car. I am quite happy with my 325i and am also still living in the "starter home" that we bought 23 years ago!