Anyone doing detailed depreciation calculations on the G35C is probably not in target market -- unless it's to convince their spouse that they want to buy a cherry red two-door 280HP coupe for purely practical reasons.
Along with the 350Z and the S2000, this is a choice that will be made by passion, not spreadsheets...
I have been looking at buying a BMW 330ci, and drove one again yesterday. In my opinion the car feels cheap! The dealer was trying to sell it to me at $800 under MSRP, but I'm not sure I would buy it at $8k under. The gearbox was crap and the overall feeling was "Corolla". I'll pass.
After leaving the BMW dealer I stopped by the local Infinify dealer and drove a G35 coupe. WOW! :-) Great car!! I am replacing my C5 corvette (no back seat) and wanted something sporty, the G35 is a great fit.
I don't know who would pay the BMW price after driving the G35, but I have a feeling they feel strongly about what kind of impression a BMW would make on their friends. Anyone who would even consider the beemer has not driven them back to back. Do it...and you'll see what I mean.
I put a deposit down today at MSRP for a loaded 6spd and feel that the Nav system, even though novel and expensive, is cool. It's still waaayyy cheaper than the 330ci.
I think the extra $5k I've saved should go toward that shifter kart I've been looking at.
I put some photos up of a blue coupe including a shot of the back seat. I am 5'10.5 and sat in the back. My head hit the top of the glass, but if you slide slightly forward, and spread your knees apart, you can fit just fine, and still be in a comfortable sitting position. Tom
Well I can't help with your first question, but as to the manual vs.auto issue I can give you my reason for choosing a 6 sdp.
The main reason is one of control. As a fan of racing and performance oriented driving I feel that the most of a car can be had only with a manual transmission. When I select 2nd gear in a manual and let the clutch out the power gets to the rear wheels when "I" let the clutch out, not when the bands within a automatic transmission are set to engage the wheels. So, if the best acceleration on a given road surface is had between 4200 and 5700 rpm I can do exactly that with a manual, and not with an auto.
Another way to look at it is in terms of just using the clutch. The engagement of a manual clutch occurs when you push the pedal in. There is no way to do this on a typical automatic transmission except to select "N" on the selection lever. Say you are driving late at night, in the fog, in winter, over a rise in the road that turns to the right, in freezing temps. Suddenly there is ice in the road, although this is not a good situation with any type of transmission, with a manual you could simply push the clutch in and steer into the slide without taking your hands off the wheel and not loose total control of the vehicle.
I know you must be thinking that electronic devices such as traction control and active ABS are for these type of situations and how could a driver be safer than them. Well, trust me on this one, if I had a choice of driving on winter roads with Mario Andretti with no driver aides or old lady McBeth with the most every electronic device known to the world on her car, I'll choose Mario.
Driver ability and car control counts allot more than electronics aides ever will.
habitat1, I think if you compared it under more comparable premises, bgt would be pretty close regarding price difference. I am not a good negotiator, am afraid of doing ED (or JD if there is such thing from Japan), don't have Marriott awards. So most likely, I will be buying either car at a dealer, at best for the Edmunds TMV price but not less (I think some people are born with negotiation skills. It's just not I.) Personally I think driving excitement still belongs to the BMW (U.D.M. as they say.) G35 seems to be the next best thing when it comes to the fun factor. It's just a matter of how much value you put on fun versus other factors.
Tifosi: "Anyone who would even consider the beemer has not driven them back to back." Well, I have and I'm certainly considering the beemer.
Take a hundred people and plop them in a BMW 330ci and a G35c side-by-side and fifty will say that the BMW feels cheap and the Infiniti feels expensive, and fifty will have the opposite conclusion. They're just different and appeal to different customers. That doesn't make any one wrong for preferring either.
And habit1 has the right numbers. Do the math on a ED 330ci and it is more expensive, but not a lot more expensive. For the comparison of the two cars I'd get for the price they'd end up costing in my driveway at the end of the day, the G35c (six-speed and no other options for MSRP) is about $2K cheaper than the 330ci (five-speed, sport package, cold-weather, metallic paint, for $1500 over ED invoice). For me, this is not a deal-breaker either way. Nor is the extra performance and equipment on the G35c critical. Both will get the job done just fine.
One final observation: I drive around and see 15-year-old, clean BMWs that look handsome and that I think I'd enjoy owning and driving. I can't find any 15-year old Japanese car that I feel the same way about, although I suppose an Acura Coupe like I used to own would come close. And there isn't a single older Infiniti that appeals to me today. But the G35c is certainly handsome, so perhaps it will break the mold.
All this makes me thing that a BMW purchase might give me a better shot at keeping a car for a long time, which is what I try to do with any car purchase because they're so dang expensive and I hate car payments.
Though the BWM does NOT have the best interiors compared to other German marks (no pun), I seriously doubt the Infiniti G35 interior can hold a candle to the BWM 330i. The G35c is interior is plain CHEAP. But who cares, the engineers spent more time with other dynamics of the car to make it appealing to the people that are on this forum. I would have liked the Infiniti with the cheap interior if it matched the smoothness and build quality of the BMW, but it doesn't. After reading this forum I just learned about the ED program and was amazed that you can get a Bimmer priced in the 35k range. WOW... something to consider.
I don't fit em very well and I don't like the interiors. As far as an older Japanese car that still looks good...The first gen LS400 still looks classy and they are getting around 12 years old.
I just want to clarify that my previous post regarding "accurate" European Delivery prices was not to suggest it's for everyone and to bag a G35 in favor of a 330ci and a trip to Stuttgart.
As sopecreek suggests, European Delivery is not for everyone. There is a lead time in ordering and you have to pay for the car in advance of pick up. It works great for someone who pays cash for cars (no advance financing or leasing required) and has other vehicles that they can use for the 3-4 week lag time between picking the car up in Europe and receiving it back in the states. When you look at the BMW forums, it seems ED is more popular among 5-series buyers than 3-series buyers. I suspect that's because they are more affluent and can plan ahead. If you need a car tomorrow, ED is not for you.
On the BMW vs. Infiniti debate, I think markjenn makes an extremely good point. I also see a lot of well maintained 10-15 year old BMWs that have aged gracefully. Whether my next sedan is a $25k Nissan Maxima SE 6-speed, a $35k G35c, a $45k 530i sport or a $75k M5, I'll be paying cash. I am sure that a big factor for me will be how I perceive the car will look feel and drive after 3-5-7+ years, not just the day I pick it up. Back in 1994 I almost bought a Nissan Altima GXE instead of a Maxima SE. The $4k price difference seemed like a lot back then. But now, 8 years and 132k miles later, the Maxima still looks and drives great. So much so, that I felt comfortable keeping it another year or two last fall and getting an S2000 for "fun" (which I justified by it's exceptional resale value). The point is that, whether you are talking about a $35k G35c or a $38k 330ci, it's still a lot of money and I suggest you make sure it will be a purchase you are happy with for many years to come.
BMWs about 10 or 15 years ago... are we talking about back when BMW still used round lights in front? If so, then those things were quite ugly. Of course, this is all very subjective. I guess I'm too young to appreciate classical designs.
And as for the 'prestige factor' of BMWs, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it has slipped over the past five years or so. BMW has done really well. Consequently you see a LOT more of them and the 'exclusive' club is more of a 'me-too' club now. Here in Columbus, Ohio, I cannot swing a dead rat without hitting at least two bimmers. Of couse, Columbus may be a bit of an anomaly, being the ulta-yuppie-land that it is, but still, this is the Midwest here.
Everyone keeps on bringing up the awful resale of Infinitis, but then again, cars like the G35c are intended to reverse that trend. Skeptics will agree at least that the car LOOKS twice as good as any previous Infiniti.
I'm glad I can swing a dead rat and hit a Bimmer. In my neck of the woods I see more Ferraris than G35s. Whew imagine, Ferrari commonplace and mundane. There are really only about 3 or 4 prestige manufacturers left and they all sell cars that are over $200K. Do sheer numbers define the lack of prestige. If so, then the G35 is prestigious. I also hope Infiniti stays in business. In So Cal where I used to live, there were more Porsches than Honda's. Is that prestige?
There is a world of difference in the makeup of cars between the Midwest and the West Coast. But what I'm saying still applies to Cali or whereever it is you live now.
I'm not saying scarcity and availability are the sole factors in 'prestige' but they certainly do play a large role. If every single person on your street in SoCal did in fact have a Ferrari, then YES, that would dim the personal glamour of owning one a little, don't you think?
Isn't that the reason some people just gotta get the new thing, no matter what? Isn't this why dealerships price gouge when a new model comes out?
Certainly if you are looking for a more unusual car today, go for the G35c. It has only been out a month or so, so they're rare. E46 BMWs have been out since 99 so they're a bunch on the road.
I don't see this as a slight on either car - if you want to drive the newest that you always want to drive whatever just hit the streets. Of course, you'll be leapfrogged by another car next year, so staying on the bleeding edge costs you.
kdshapiro: "In So Cal where I used to live, there were more Porsches than Honda's. Is that prestige?"
It probably only seems there are more Porsches because they catch your eye more than the mundane Hondas, which there are literally hundreds of thousands here in SoCal.
The same will be true with the G35c. This car will catch more eyes than a 330Ci. But it depends on whose eye you are trying to catch, BMW didn't build their brand image by making terrible cars, thus everyone regards them highly. However prestige alone does not merit a vehicle purchase.
Off that topic, though, have any other G35c owners experienced the following: Someone pulls up to you at a light sees your car, and feels they are entitled to a quick race? I have only had the car for two weeks, and this has happened a half dozen times, just because the car looks fast, people feel they need to prove their car is fast too? This is the first sports car I have owned though, maybe it is a phenomenon of owning any fast looking car?
No it wasn't that they caught your eye, when you pulled into a parking lot with 50 Porsches and 10 Hondas and 10 Toyotas, the numbers were there.
But I was philophically posing the question what really is prestige. While one could look up the definition, the value of prestige is different for every person.
I don't think the numbers are what makes prestige.
"In So Cal where I used to live, there were more Porsches than Honda's. Is that prestige? "
I'm not sure what neck of the woods you're from, but I drive between Newport Beach and Irvine every day, and I see 1000x more Hondas than Porsches. I'm not sure what kind of statement you were trying to make....
It's a new car, rovhol, it obviously thinks it's fast, and everyone wants to see what it looks/sounds like at speed -- understandable, but not a good idea for the car or the insurance premium. Besides you have more dignity (prestige?) if you don't bite, I think.
kdshapiro, imo (only) I don't think prestige comes from the object. A diamond is just a rock, unless we all agree that it's something special. In this discussion, I don't think either the BMW or the Infiniti have prestige ... but that BMW has a tradition and an image: some influential, prestigious role-models in most communities drive the big ones ... those and the big XJs. Then there's the 3-series, and while it's associated with a younger and, presumably, uppwardly mobile group (but the presumption gives away my point), it is prestigious especially among those who wish that they, too, were upwardly mobile.
It is also prestigious among fans of fine automobiles, not because the car is significantly better than a number of others, but because the auto magazines, web sites, commentators, and so on, become nearly orgasmic at the thought of one. (Obviously, this is the subject of many debates, including much of this board. Proponents and opponents of the marque alike cite stats and comments from the various media "prophets" as gospel to show that the BMW is superior, or if not that it's the benchmark.) In fact, the religion of the 3 is such a universal response among auto pundits that I've often wondered if it is the car that excites them, or if their predictable acceptance of The Propellor Code is instead a matter of 'noblesse oblige,' sort of a pre-requisite for admission to the club of automotive writers. Imagine the credibility problem a writer would have if s/he were to choose another car, just as fine, as the 3's superior! (*Automobile* magazine did just that, I believe. "Must have been a fluke," or "Not to be taken seriously.")
This is where the G35c comes in. It has no tradition -- in fact, there's a guilt by association with the rest of the well-engineered but despised Infiniti line-up and history. If the Gc indeed is a superior car, as many of us believe it is, that is not enough for prestige! Many excellent cars have languished in the role of 'also-ran' next to the propellor cars. To have prestige, the G35 will have to be the first of a new pattern for Infiniti .... excellent automobiles, so excellent they cannot be denied .... and a pattern of exceptional merit that repeats for many years .... and finally is marked as desirable by those "in the know" and thereby a car becomes prestigious -- in other words, Infinitis become a Snob Car desired even by those who don't know a lug nut from a fog light. This snob image is the present state of BMW, and maybe its vulnerability.
Once that happens, those who swing rats will be denting the unprotected sides of G35 coupes.
My Red/blk 6 speed with premium package is due to arrivve in less than one month. Professor, (or any other owners of 6 speeds, please check in with any useful observations, comments, etc.
Excuse me while I rant, but why do I have to deal with a salesman when buying a car? I just got back from the dealer because I couldn't wait for the car show, in San Antonio, to see the coupe. I took a look at a diamond graphite/willow 6MT in person. It was sold already so I couldn't climb in it and play, but I must say that this car must be seen in person to truly appreciate its beauty.
Then the salesman started talking and my visit went downhill from there. I told him if and when I order my car, I don't want to add any options to it. He was quite shocked and wondered why I wouldn't want to add the sport package for 600 dollars. I'm sorry but I thought that the 6MT model came standard with 18s and brembo brakes( the sport package). Then he told me that the deposit for the order was $500 where another salesman told me it was $1000. Why can't these guys get there heads out of their collective butt and give me some straight info. All I've heard about is how great the Infinti customer service is but it seems I still have to deal with car dealer BS.
On a second note, I was not as enamored with the diamond graphite paint as I thought I would be. The color looks darker on the website. In reality it is just a touch darker than the silver. It's got me rethinking my color choice. Should I go with the Ivory Pearl or go crazy and pick the Red?
Finally, while I was at the dealer I met a guy that just bought a fully loaded 6MT. He is letting the dealer use it for the car show this weekend. I'm sorry but I just couldn't allow that to happen if it was my car. The thought of all those strangers sitting in my ride and playing with everything just makes my stomach turn. It's like passing around my wife, IT JUST WOULDN'T HAPPEN!!!!!!
Two ways to look at it perhaps. Could be the other buyer is shrewder than you think and is investing in his future dealings with the dealers' personnel. Hard to say..
I'm shopping for a G35 in the new york area. The best deal I have found is 30K+tax+Motor vehicles, for a 2003.5, with leather, sunroof, spoiler and gaurds. Has anybody else found a better deal?
Test drive the car, figure out exactly what you want on it and then e-mail local Infiniti dealers with a request to pre-order such a vehicle. Don't bother going in to deal with salesmen. i never do beyond test drives as the internet sales managers are always very upfront and easy to deal with.
With a few notable exceptions, car salesman generally violate the first rule of sales - know your product. I've given up all-together on them and other than a confirming test ride, I do all my business over email and fax. And you generally get a better salesperson by making your initial contact over email - I think the good salesman are fed the qualified leads that come in over the net.
They're also spring loaded to tell you that you are an idiot if you want a "stripper". If I was getting an G35c today, I'd want a base 6MT like you. I don't like sunroofs and the base 6MT is very, very well equipped - in fact, I'd prefer cloth seats over the leather if I could get it. If I order, I'm sure I'll have to arm wrestle them into taking such an order and perhaps put down a non-refundable deposit so they could order such a difficult to sell and oddball car.
I've searched a number of dealer inventories using Infiniti's excellent web tools and I've seen tens of 6MTs, but all have at least the premium package.
Go crazy, get the red. This car in red and upgraded wheels looks amazing.
At the dealership I was deciding between the silver an the red, and side by side, the silver looked too tame. I am by no means a boy racer, but this cars' nature seemed hindered in all but the red. However, I am sure all the local law enforcement will notice more than I want them to.
btw, I also contacted the dealer through the net and used their Internet salesman. Big improvement over the standard walk-in, he was very informative, of course, after driving the thing, nothing was getting in the way of my getting the car, got everything I could have wanted (the navi is great, but makes you lazy), no regrets.
esbrock, Very interesting comments about color. I put down a deposit in October for a 6M red with blk, prem. I knew back then that when my car came in, there also would be a coupe in the diamond graphite for me to look at and compare to the red. If I liked the looks of the diamond graphite better, I would order one in December for March delivery and let the Red one go. As it turns out, I just received the call today. My red coupe came in 1 month early. There also is a diamond graphite coupe (with auto) so I can look at the two colors side by side. The coupe in red is a total attention grabber. It is a great red with a lots of depth and no hint of orange even in bright sunlight. I did see one in Desest Platinum with the willow interior a few weeks ago and it was very classy looking. The silver is very washed out looking and I will never own another black car.
One last interesting twist, since I put the deposit down on my coupe I have not sold my 02 Audi A4 3.0/6 speed. Tomorrow I will drive the Audi to the Infiniti dealership. While I expect the G35 to smoke my Audi, for 220hp it goes. Also, I have not been in another car with a nicer interior than the Audi. So do I give up 4 doors,4 wheel drive, and heated seats, for a rwd head turner? Stay tuned, I will report back tomorrow after my test drive of the coupe compared to my A4 and also my take on the Red vs. the Diamond graphite.
Thanks for all the advice. I may just go with the internet sales route when the time comes. When the subject of ordering the car came up yesterday, the sales guy told me to expect a late April to mid May delivery date (if ordered now). He told me they only get about 3 to 7 coupes a month and that if I wait any longer it may push delivery back to July. Nice sales tactic but it didn't work on me since I am in no hurry to purchase a new vehicle.
Are they selling the coupe in Canada? Just wondering because I will be in the Vancouver area next week and thought it would be cool to check them out there.
The salesmen most likely was not trying to pressure you. Rather he was trying to head off possible complaints. Realisticly now that the car isout and people can see it the few remaining order slots are rapidly filling up.
I don't agree that the Japanese have not designed timeless cars. The infiniti J-30 is a classic design that still looks good after all these years. It was introduced in 93' in the US, and was ahead of it's time, although I think it was designed in the US, in Nissan's California studios. In 93' it made the BMW's look boxy and outdated, and it still looks good today. My J-30 always turns heads, and I have strangers walk up to me and tell me what a great looking car I'm driving. The problem with Infiniti, and Japanese cars in general, is their lack of consistency. They go from a classic design to a bland, boring design. Unlike BMW who, until recently, consistently designed cars that were not revolutionary, but evolutionary.
How does Edmunds list "what others are paying" at $500 below MSRP. I haven't heard anyone on this site saying they paid less than MSRP. Maybe it's all the blue ones I see on the dealers inventories that they are having to reduce to sell. Blue doesn't seem to be the color of choice. I'm waiting for my Diamond Graphite one to arrive sometime in december.
I'm with you on the red coupe. Great color and attention grabber as jaydoll said. I've always been a red-car fanatic, and as long as my wife doesn't veto it, that's what I get. Because she decided the coupe looks good in red, choosing it with the black interior was an easy decision.
I saw my red coupe today. I also saw the coupe in diamond graphite. It was overcast today in the NE so I didn't get to view the colors in full sunlight. The red/black combo is nice but, the color I liked the best was the Desert Platinum with either the black or the willow interior. I strongly considering having the dealer orderme a 6 speed coupe in desert platinum and letting them sell the red one that just arrived. If anyone in the North East is interested in a red/blk with premium 6M, let me know. It's available now.
I have two friends who have owned J30's and both agree that it was a great car. However, woe is the unlucky buyer that wanted to sell one after 2-3-4 years of ownership. The depreciation was HORENDOUS. I remember at one point I went with one friend to a Mercedes dealership in 1998 to see what he could get in trade on an E430. They offered him $17k on a 3 year old 1995 J30 that he had paid over $35k for and it had under 40k miles. For kicks, we asked them what they would give me on the same E430 trade for my 3 year old 1995 Maxima SE with 50k miles and they came back with $14k. I had paid $21k for the Max. $7k / 33% depreciation for the Maxima; $18k 50%+ for the J30. The disparity was pretty unnerving for my friend and he vowed never to buy another Infiniti. The J30 is still being passed around between his kids and runs like a top, it just didn't hold its value. For someone like him, who likes a new car every 3-4 years, Infiniti is forever blackballed.
Pretty soon there will be a surplus. Subaru initially stated that only 10,000 WRX units would be shipped to the US. Once demand was there, Subaru ramped up production and shipped over 30,000 units. Bottom line, you can get a WRX for $200 over dealer invoice. Same holds true for the G35c. These cars are going to MASS PRODUCED so Nissan can get some MORE BLACK INK. Do you think they care about the customer's desire to have exclusivity? Of course not!! Believe me, wait a few months and dealers will be BEGGING you to buy. I've seen it happen with virtually every new mass produced model.
It's funny, but when I mentioned the Japanese styling tends to be non-classic and not wear well, I was trying to think of a car to cite as an example, and the J30 came to mind. To my eyes, it was an interesting and clean car when new, but its styling was trendy and now just looks dowdy to my eyes. But please, don't take offense, the only opinion that matters is your own and we're talking subjective looks here, nothing more. From what I hear, it is a fine car.
Someone else mentioned that Lexus cars age well, and I read an article about this that I think was in the NYT. It pointed out that Lexus is very deliberate in styling their cars fairly conservatively, in making changes evolutionary, and keeping their color selection to colors that age well (typically silers, golds, beiges, and other metallic colors). Lexus said they did this deliberately to make the car more Euro and give owners a feeling that they were investing in something will long-term value. I recall that when the 2nd generation ES300 appeared, everyone was surprised that Lexus went to the trouble of re-designing all the sheet metal to produce a car that looked so much like the 1st generation. And part of the reason early LS400's look good is because it looked very similar to the new LS430 right up until the big restyle they did a couple years ago. (I currently own a GS300 and have mixed feelings about the styling, but it has been pleasing to buy a car in 97 and own it five years and have it virtually indistinguishable from a car you can buy today. I think that is why it has suffered very low depreciation - I paid $40K and today I could sell it for about $23K.)
Certainly, there are Japanese cars that look good to me over the years too (the Acura Legend Coupes and 2nd generation Mazda RX-7's come to my mind). If you find more 10-year-old Japanese cars you like rather than BMW's then this is probably a good sign that you'd find the G35c coupe styling to age well.
Again, styling is very subjective so I'm not trying to tell anyone their right or wrong - just giving my subjective impressions and thought process as I consider replacing my car. My #1 priority is to get a car that I think I'll like as well in Year 4-7 as I like in Year 1-3. Right now, it just "feels" like a 330ci would probably would do this better. But boy-oh-boy, the G35c gives you a lot of car for the money, and I'm a believer that a Nissan will be a lot more trouble free than any German car.
I know lots of people don't agree but I still think the first generation Legend Coupes, the vigor and the 2nd generation Integras had style that holds up more than 10 years later. I was at a light the other day when I spied an SDSU co-ed driving a Vigor in front of me. I was struck by how clean and current those cars still look today. A lawyer friend of mine has an 89 Legend coupe with over 150k miles on it and the only new car she likes currently is the G35 coupe (she claims it reminds her of her car, which is still in tip-top shape).
Lexus cars don't age well at all. Have you seen the older previous generation G series or ES? Ouch. They look OUTDATED. That's what happens when cars are overstyled. I've had several friends and co-workers make the same remark. But I have to agree with blueguy that the first generation Legend coupes aged very well, and looked fresh for a long time.
I just called my local dealership to see if they had a coupe available for a test drive. The salesperson said that he did and that I could come over. I said that I would come by today. He then proceeded to ask which options and packages I might be interested in. He continued in a nervous tone saying that we would have to sit down and negotiate the purchase BEFORE the test drive. I have already written to Infiniti and am incensed at this treatment. Do they think they're selling Ferraris or something? With that kind of attitude, I'll test drive and buy my BMW or Lexus, thanks very much. In any case, if you are in Northern California, I suggest avoiding the Colma dealership. Have others had problems with dealership experience?
You can experience problems at every dealership in the world. Being a luxury dealer does not automatically put classy, intelligent people in the sales office.
For example:
I've been to BMW and a genius salesguy insisted that BMW's current e46 coupe was first released in the USA in 1999 MY. That's incorrect, as it was 2000 that the e46 coupe arrived (the e46 sedan did arrive in 99). This guy told me he knows because he's sold BMWs for five years, getting a surly attitude. I asked for his manager and told the manager what transpired. Nobody offered an apology for the salesperson's arrogance, insolence and most importantly ignorance. The manager did confirm i was correct though. If i had taken this to be all BMW dealers, I'd never set foot on one of their lots again. Of course other experiences have revealed similar problems, while still more experiences have shown some BMW salesmen are very intelligent and know how to handle a customer.
At Lexus I've been ignored before and put through the ringer while helping friends buy cars. Oppositionally, at another Lexus dealership i was treated like royalty. One dealership feld cold and had a take-it-or-leave-it attitude. At another a salesman hounded me for days, begging me to buy an IS300 (and dropping the price to more obscene levels with each call).
Infiniti pretty much matches that. A punk salesman should not turn you off to the whole make as every make will have those yahoos (american car companies seem to employ 95% more of them though).
If I were in your shoes i would have demanded the manager get on the phone and get it all straightened out. There's no reason to be treated like that an apology was in order. Call the dealership back, ask for the manager and arrange a test drive. If they won't comply, tell them you're contacting Infiniti and sending a complaint letter to the BBB and all local papers. They'll straighten up.
You are 100% correct that a bad dealer experience can be had just about anywhere. In fact, another Infiniti dealership treated me very well and I will be test driving one of their coupes next week. It is amazing, though, in this age of educated consumers, the internet, etc., that you can still find people who believe bullying is the appropriate sales tactic. All I can say is that if that tactic is still in use, it must work on many buyers. I did look back into past postings on this forum and notice some stories consistent with mine. I think that Infiniti is just now getting their model line in order and that the sales people are tasting fresh blood in this anemic market - bad news if you want to deal with a reasonable individual.
As I get closer to making a purchasing decision, I expect more awful behavior from these people, but will definitely check back here to make sure I'm getting the best deal. My "position of power" is that I don't mind waiting a few months. A few postings on this forum, as well as an article from our beloved Edmunds editors say that the Internet departments of the dealerships are actually the way to go. Better trained sales force (no E46 in '99!) with no haggle bargains. Sounds good.
....Infiniti dealer at the Roseville Auto Mall: Great service department, rather average sales folk. MSRP + 2k markup shown on the G35 Coupe window during my visit earlier this month.
Since you don't mind waiting a few months (same for me), you are indeed able to operate from a position of power. However, in all fairness, the Laser Red coupe on der showroom floor....did look outrageously cool. Self-control is an acquired skill - IMHO. Best....ez
Comments
Along with the 350Z and the S2000, this is a choice that will be made by passion, not spreadsheets...
After leaving the BMW dealer I stopped by the local Infinify dealer and drove a G35 coupe. WOW! :-) Great car!! I am replacing my C5 corvette (no back seat) and wanted something sporty, the G35 is a great fit.
I don't know who would pay the BMW price after driving the G35, but I have a feeling they feel strongly about what kind of impression a BMW would make on their friends. Anyone who would even consider the beemer has not driven them back to back. Do it...and you'll see what I mean.
I put a deposit down today at MSRP for a loaded 6spd and feel that the Nav system, even though novel and expensive, is cool. It's still waaayyy cheaper than the 330ci.
I think the extra $5k I've saved should go toward that shifter kart I've been looking at.
http://www.geocities.com/tomaol/G35Coupe.html
The main reason is one of control. As a fan of racing and performance oriented driving I feel that the most of a car can be had only with a manual transmission. When I select 2nd gear in a manual and let the clutch out the power gets to the rear wheels when "I" let the clutch out, not when the bands within a automatic transmission are set to engage the wheels. So, if the best acceleration on a given road surface is had between 4200 and 5700 rpm I can do exactly that with a manual, and not with an auto.
Another way to look at it is in terms of just using the clutch. The engagement of a manual clutch occurs when you push the pedal in. There is no way to do this on a typical automatic transmission except to select "N" on the selection lever. Say you are driving late at night, in the fog, in winter, over a rise in the road that turns to the right, in freezing temps. Suddenly there is ice in the road, although this is not a good situation with any type of transmission, with a manual you could simply push the clutch in and steer into the slide without taking your hands off the wheel and not loose total control of the vehicle.
I know you must be thinking that electronic devices such as traction control and active ABS are for these type of situations and how could a driver be safer than them. Well, trust me on this one, if I had a choice of driving on winter roads with Mario Andretti with no driver aides or old lady McBeth with the most every electronic device known to the world on her car, I'll choose Mario.
Driver ability and car control counts allot more than electronics aides ever will.
http://www.freshalloy.com for lots more.
Personally I think driving excitement still belongs to the BMW (U.D.M. as they say.) G35 seems to be the next best thing when it comes to the fun factor. It's just a matter of how much value you put on fun versus other factors.
Take a hundred people and plop them in a BMW 330ci and a G35c side-by-side and fifty will say that the BMW feels cheap and the Infiniti feels expensive, and fifty will have the opposite conclusion. They're just different and appeal to different customers. That doesn't make any one wrong for preferring either.
And habit1 has the right numbers. Do the math on a ED 330ci and it is more expensive, but not a lot more expensive. For the comparison of the two cars I'd get for the price they'd end up costing in my driveway at the end of the day, the G35c (six-speed and no other options for MSRP) is about $2K cheaper than the 330ci (five-speed, sport package, cold-weather, metallic paint, for $1500 over ED invoice). For me, this is not a deal-breaker either way. Nor is the extra performance and equipment on the G35c critical. Both will get the job done just fine.
One final observation: I drive around and see 15-year-old, clean BMWs that look handsome and that I think I'd enjoy owning and driving. I can't find any 15-year old Japanese car that I feel the same way about, although I suppose an Acura Coupe like I used to own would come close. And there isn't a single older Infiniti that appeals to me today. But the G35c is certainly handsome, so perhaps it will break the mold.
All this makes me thing that a BMW purchase might give me a better shot at keeping a car for a long time, which is what I try to do with any car purchase because they're so dang expensive and I hate car payments.
Tough (but pleasant) choices.
- Mark
As sopecreek suggests, European Delivery is not for everyone. There is a lead time in ordering and you have to pay for the car in advance of pick up. It works great for someone who pays cash for cars (no advance financing or leasing required) and has other vehicles that they can use for the 3-4 week lag time between picking the car up in Europe and receiving it back in the states. When you look at the BMW forums, it seems ED is more popular among 5-series buyers than 3-series buyers. I suspect that's because they are more affluent and can plan ahead. If you need a car tomorrow, ED is not for you.
On the BMW vs. Infiniti debate, I think markjenn makes an extremely good point. I also see a lot of well maintained 10-15 year old BMWs that have aged gracefully. Whether my next sedan is a $25k Nissan Maxima SE 6-speed, a $35k G35c, a $45k 530i sport or a $75k M5, I'll be paying cash. I am sure that a big factor for me will be how I perceive the car will look feel and drive after 3-5-7+ years, not just the day I pick it up. Back in 1994 I almost bought a Nissan Altima GXE instead of a Maxima SE. The $4k price difference seemed like a lot back then. But now, 8 years and 132k miles later, the Maxima still looks and drives great. So much so, that I felt comfortable keeping it another year or two last fall and getting an S2000 for "fun" (which I justified by it's exceptional resale value). The point is that, whether you are talking about a $35k G35c or a $38k 330ci, it's still a lot of money and I suggest you make sure it will be a purchase you are happy with for many years to come.
The Nissan 300Z which still looks better than most sports cars.
The Lexus SC300 and 400 which is a very clean design.
The Mitsuibishi 3000 although somewhat overstyled still has a fun look.
The Mazda Miata has a timeless design.
The last Mazda RX7 was ahead of its time, the present Corvett copied the front end.
The Last Toyota Supra was ahead of its time and looks better today than when introduced.
ETC.
And as for the 'prestige factor' of BMWs, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it has slipped over the past five years or so. BMW has done really well. Consequently you see a LOT more of them and the 'exclusive' club is more of a 'me-too' club now. Here in Columbus, Ohio, I cannot swing a dead rat without hitting at least two bimmers. Of couse, Columbus may be a bit of an anomaly, being the ulta-yuppie-land that it is, but still, this is the Midwest here.
Everyone keeps on bringing up the awful resale of Infinitis, but then again, cars like the G35c are intended to reverse that trend. Skeptics will agree at least that the car LOOKS twice as good as any previous Infiniti.
I'm not saying scarcity and availability are the sole factors in 'prestige' but they certainly do play a large role. If every single person on your street in SoCal did in fact have a Ferrari, then YES, that would dim the personal glamour of owning one a little, don't you think?
Isn't that the reason some people just gotta get the new thing, no matter what? Isn't this why dealerships price gouge when a new model comes out?
I don't see this as a slight on either car - if you want to drive the newest that you always want to drive whatever just hit the streets. Of course, you'll be leapfrogged by another car next year, so staying on the bleeding edge costs you.
- Mark
It probably only seems there are more Porsches because they catch your eye more than the mundane Hondas, which there are literally hundreds of thousands here in SoCal.
The same will be true with the G35c. This car will catch more eyes than a 330Ci. But it depends on whose eye you are trying to catch, BMW didn't build their brand image by making terrible cars, thus everyone regards them highly. However prestige alone does not merit a vehicle purchase.
Off that topic, though, have any other G35c owners experienced the following: Someone pulls up to you at a light sees your car, and feels they are entitled to a quick race? I have only had the car for two weeks, and this has happened a half dozen times, just because the car looks fast, people feel they need to prove their car is fast too? This is the first sports car I have owned though, maybe it is a phenomenon of owning any fast looking car?
But I was philophically posing the question what really is prestige. While one could look up the definition, the value of prestige is different for every person.
I don't think the numbers are what makes prestige.
I'm not sure what neck of the woods you're from, but I drive between Newport Beach and Irvine every day, and I see 1000x more Hondas than Porsches. I'm not sure what kind of statement you were trying to make....
kdshapiro, imo (only) I don't think prestige comes from the object. A diamond is just a rock, unless we all agree that it's something special. In this discussion, I don't think either the BMW or the Infiniti have prestige ... but that BMW has a tradition and an image: some influential, prestigious role-models in most communities drive the big ones ... those and the big XJs. Then there's the 3-series, and while it's associated with a younger and, presumably, uppwardly mobile group (but the presumption gives away my point), it is prestigious especially among those who wish that they, too, were upwardly mobile.
It is also prestigious among fans of fine automobiles, not because the car is significantly better than a number of others, but because the auto magazines, web sites, commentators, and so on, become nearly orgasmic at the thought of one. (Obviously, this is the subject of many debates, including much of this board. Proponents and opponents of the marque alike cite stats and comments from the various media "prophets" as gospel to show that the BMW is superior, or if not that it's the benchmark.) In fact, the religion of the 3 is such a universal response among auto pundits that I've often wondered if it is the car that excites them, or if their predictable acceptance of The Propellor Code is instead a matter of 'noblesse oblige,' sort of a pre-requisite for admission to the club of automotive writers. Imagine the credibility problem a writer would have if s/he were to choose another car, just as fine, as the 3's superior! (*Automobile* magazine did just that, I believe. "Must have been a fluke," or "Not to be taken seriously.")
This is where the G35c comes in. It has no tradition -- in fact, there's a guilt by association with the rest of the well-engineered but despised Infiniti line-up and history. If the Gc indeed is a superior car, as many of us believe it is, that is not enough for prestige! Many excellent cars have languished in the role of 'also-ran' next to the propellor cars. To have prestige, the G35 will have to be the first of a new pattern for Infiniti .... excellent automobiles, so excellent they cannot be denied .... and a pattern of exceptional merit that repeats for many years .... and finally is marked as desirable by those "in the know" and thereby a car becomes prestigious -- in other words, Infinitis become a Snob Car desired even by those who don't know a lug nut from a fog light. This snob image is the present state of BMW, and maybe its vulnerability.
Once that happens, those who swing rats will be denting the unprotected sides of G35 coupes.
IMO. What do you think?
JW
Thanks,
Jay
Then the salesman started talking and my visit went downhill from there. I told him if and when I order my car, I don't want to add any options to it. He was quite shocked and wondered why I wouldn't want to add the sport package for 600 dollars. I'm sorry but I thought that the 6MT model came standard with 18s and brembo brakes( the sport package). Then he told me that the deposit for the order was $500 where another salesman told me it was $1000. Why can't these guys get there heads out of their collective butt and give me some straight info. All I've heard about is how great the Infinti customer service is but it seems I still have to deal with car dealer BS.
On a second note, I was not as enamored with the diamond graphite paint as I thought I would be. The color looks darker on the website. In reality it is just a touch darker than the silver. It's got me rethinking my color choice. Should I go with the Ivory Pearl or go crazy and pick the Red?
Finally, while I was at the dealer I met a guy that just bought a fully loaded 6MT. He is letting the dealer use it for the car show this weekend. I'm sorry but I just couldn't allow that to happen if it was my car. The thought of all those strangers sitting in my ride and playing with everything just makes my stomach turn. It's like passing around my wife, IT JUST WOULDN'T HAPPEN!!!!!!
They're also spring loaded to tell you that you are an idiot if you want a "stripper". If I was getting an G35c today, I'd want a base 6MT like you. I don't like sunroofs and the base 6MT is very, very well equipped - in fact, I'd prefer cloth seats over the leather if I could get it. If I order, I'm sure I'll have to arm wrestle them into taking such an order and perhaps put down a non-refundable deposit so they could order such a difficult to sell and oddball car.
I've searched a number of dealer inventories using Infiniti's excellent web tools and I've seen tens of 6MTs, but all have at least the premium package.
- Mark
At the dealership I was deciding between the silver an the red, and side by side, the silver looked too tame. I am by no means a boy racer, but this cars' nature seemed hindered in all but the red. However, I am sure all the local law enforcement will notice more than I want them to.
btw, I also contacted the dealer through the net and used their Internet salesman. Big improvement over the standard walk-in, he was very informative, of course, after driving the thing, nothing was getting in the way of my getting the car, got everything I could have wanted (the navi is great, but makes you lazy), no regrets.
Very interesting comments about color. I put down a deposit in October for a 6M red with blk, prem. I knew back then that when my car came in, there also would be a coupe in the diamond graphite for me to look at and compare to the red. If I liked the looks of the diamond graphite better, I would order one in December for March delivery and let the Red one go. As it turns out, I just received the call today. My red coupe came in 1 month early. There also is a diamond graphite coupe (with auto) so I can look at the two colors side by side. The coupe in red is a total attention grabber. It is a great red with a lots of depth and no hint of orange even in bright sunlight. I did see one in Desest Platinum with the willow interior a few weeks ago and it was very classy looking. The silver is very washed out looking and I will never own another black car.
One last interesting twist, since I put the deposit down on my coupe I have not sold my 02 Audi A4 3.0/6 speed. Tomorrow I will drive the Audi to the Infiniti dealership. While I expect the G35 to smoke my Audi, for 220hp it goes. Also, I have not been in another car with a nicer interior than the Audi. So do I give up 4 doors,4 wheel drive, and heated seats, for a rwd head turner? Stay tuned, I will report back tomorrow after my test drive of the coupe compared to my A4 and also my take on the Red vs. the Diamond graphite.
cheers
Are they selling the coupe in Canada? Just wondering because I will be in the Vancouver area next week and thought it would be cool to check them out there.
Bad news: Edmunds lists the coupe with discounts from MSRP now in its True Value calculation. There must be a surplus. Already.
Good news: Kiplinger lists the coupe with a fairly strong, BMWesque, 2 yr resale estimate, something like 62% if I recall correctly.
JW
I saw my red coupe today. I also saw the coupe in diamond graphite. It was overcast today in the NE so I didn't get to view the colors in full sunlight. The red/black combo is nice but, the color I liked the best was the Desert Platinum with either the black or the willow interior. I strongly considering having the dealer orderme a 6 speed coupe in desert platinum and letting them sell the red one that just arrived. If anyone in the North East is interested in a red/blk with premium 6M, let me know. It's available now.
Someone else mentioned that Lexus cars age well, and I read an article about this that I think was in the NYT. It pointed out that Lexus is very deliberate in styling their cars fairly conservatively, in making changes evolutionary, and keeping their color selection to colors that age well (typically silers, golds, beiges, and other metallic colors). Lexus said they did this deliberately to make the car more Euro and give owners a feeling that they were investing in something will long-term value. I recall that when the 2nd generation ES300 appeared, everyone was surprised that Lexus went to the trouble of re-designing all the sheet metal to produce a car that looked so much like the 1st generation. And part of the reason early LS400's look good is because it looked very similar to the new LS430 right up until the big restyle they did a couple years ago. (I currently own a GS300 and have mixed feelings about the styling, but it has been pleasing to buy a car in 97 and own it five years and have it virtually indistinguishable from a car you can buy today. I think that is why it has suffered very low depreciation - I paid $40K and today I could sell it for about $23K.)
Certainly, there are Japanese cars that look good to me over the years too (the Acura Legend Coupes and 2nd generation Mazda RX-7's come to my mind). If you find more 10-year-old Japanese cars you like rather than BMW's then this is probably a good sign that you'd find the G35c coupe styling to age well.
Again, styling is very subjective so I'm not trying to tell anyone their right or wrong - just giving my subjective impressions and thought process as I consider replacing my car. My #1 priority is to get a car that I think I'll like as well in Year 4-7 as I like in Year 1-3. Right now, it just "feels" like a 330ci would probably would do this better. But boy-oh-boy, the G35c gives you a lot of car for the money, and I'm a believer that a Nissan will be a lot more trouble free than any German car.
- Mark
For example:
I've been to BMW and a genius salesguy insisted that BMW's current e46 coupe was first released in the USA in 1999 MY. That's incorrect, as it was 2000 that the e46 coupe arrived (the e46 sedan did arrive in 99). This guy told me he knows because he's sold BMWs for five years, getting a surly attitude. I asked for his manager and told the manager what transpired. Nobody offered an apology for the salesperson's arrogance, insolence and most importantly ignorance. The manager did confirm i was correct though. If i had taken this to be all BMW dealers, I'd never set foot on one of their lots again. Of course other experiences have revealed similar problems, while still more experiences have shown some BMW salesmen are very intelligent and know how to handle a customer.
At Lexus I've been ignored before and put through the ringer while helping friends buy cars. Oppositionally, at another Lexus dealership i was treated like royalty. One dealership feld cold and had a take-it-or-leave-it attitude. At another a salesman hounded me for days, begging me to buy an IS300 (and dropping the price to more obscene levels with each call).
Infiniti pretty much matches that. A punk salesman should not turn you off to the whole make as every make will have those yahoos (american car companies seem to employ 95% more of them though).
If I were in your shoes i would have demanded the manager get on the phone and get it all straightened out. There's no reason to be treated like that an apology was in order. Call the dealership back, ask for the manager and arrange a test drive. If they won't comply, tell them you're contacting Infiniti and sending a complaint letter to the BBB and all local papers. They'll straighten up.
As I get closer to making a purchasing decision, I expect more awful behavior from these people, but will definitely check back here to make sure I'm getting the best deal. My "position of power" is that I don't mind waiting a few months. A few postings on this forum, as well as an article from our beloved Edmunds editors say that the Internet departments of the dealerships are actually the way to go. Better trained sales force (no E46 in '99!) with no haggle bargains. Sounds good.
Since you don't mind waiting a few months (same for me), you are indeed able to operate from a position of power. However, in all fairness, the Laser Red coupe on der showroom floor....did look outrageously cool. Self-control is an acquired skill - IMHO. Best....ez