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Acura TSX



  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Sailoverfuel - I'm not clear on what you mean in your last paragraph, but let me post the "why" behind my post and maybe we'll see if we truly are on the same page. =)

    There are many on these boards who believe that Honda/Acura is holding back production because Honda benefits from the higher prices mandated by the dealers. They frequently use references to supply and demand theory to back it up.

    That is pretty much hogwash.

    When you wrote, "...Honda is playing the demand game", it seemed to me that you were posting along those lines. If not, there is my mistake.

    I believe we agree that increasing production to meet demand is the way for Honda to make cash. So why are they not doing it?

    To answer that we have to look at production capacity, which brings us to demand in other markets. TSX production is linked to production of the JDM and UK Accord. To produce more of one, they have to cut production on another, or increase total production.

    Right now, Honda is struggling in Europe. Even if the car doesn't generate profits, they need to sell Accords other there. They have to establish some market presence. So it is not likely that they will cut production of the UK Accord.

    In their home market, Honda sales are stagnant. For the same reasons as the UK, they are unlikely to cut production of JDM Accords.

    That leaves them with the option of raising total production. It appears that this is already being done. Sales to date are ahead of the projected 15,000 per year. They could spend more money to enhance the production lines, pay their suppliers over-time, and hire more workers. That should further boost TSX production. However, when the new TL comes and the newness of the TSX wears off, sales will drop. Honda would have to spend even more money to downgrade production back to more realistic levels.

    Is it worth all that for a couple thousand more units of a (relatively) low-priced niche vehicle?
  • uncledaviduncledavid Posts: 548
    every one of your points makes good sense, and I think you have nailed the situation completely.
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    Just a note about how cars are made these days.

    Japanese companies are starting to "batch" production of cars. This means that car factories for a given model are not like a continuously running faucet where they can simply open up the spigot and make 10% more if demands picks up. They may make TSX's for the US market only one month, then convert the line over to make something totally different, perhaps not even an Acura.

    Also, more and more of a car's final construction consists of bolting together complete sub-assemblies produced in another plant, perhaps across the world. For example, completely dash assemblies are now being produced by suppliers so that a dash production line may make TSX dashes for a week, then be converted over to make dashes for something else, maybe even a Nissan or Toyota, or a even a fancy lawn/garden tractor for that matter.

    All this means that demand must be forecast WAY in advance and making instant quick reactions to changes in the market is virtually impossible.

    We are not far from where final production of cars is sub-contracting to the degree where the same line may produce a VW Jetta one week and a Honda Accord the next. This is what is now occurring across the board in consumer electronics and most experts think it will occur for cars in the next ten years.

    Welcome to the global economy.

    - Mark
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    BTW, someone said the CL moved 20k per year? Maybe its first year. All subsequent years sales dropped by 33%. That car was a major bomb.

    You are right. Sales numbers from the past for CL:
    1999: 21K (first generation)
    2000: 24K (first plus second generation)
    2001: 19K (second generation)
    2002: 12K (second generation)

    With the launch of new CL in 2000, Acura made it a more upscale model, and a lot closer to TL. There was no longer the economy option (2.2CL/2.3CL) starting in low-20s. Combine this with increasing sales of TL, an identical car (minus two doors).

    Along the similar lines, the move of making RSX a more upscale car than Integra also demanded a reduction in sales estimates. During its peak, Acura may have sold 60-70K Integra units every year, and back then, the stripped RS model was offered, along with LS, GS and GS-R. With the launch of RSX, I saw equivalent of GS as the base RSX, and GS-R as the Type-S. The $18K option, LS was gone as well. This amounts to a car with higher price and reduced sales. But then, Integra did not have to deal with an equivalent version with 4-doors (although LS, GS and GS-R trims were offered with four doors, but still marketed as Integra)

    Given these circumstances, CL sales were bound to dip, although not as much as it did in 2002 (but TL sales also fell from all time high 69K to 61K the same year). We can analyze these numbers all day, but the reality, I believe is, that 2-door trims of a car identical in size and performance do not do as well as their 4-door counterparts. I would be eager to know the percentage breakup between BMW 3-series sedan and coupe, since the situation is similar.
  • parker19parker19 Posts: 59
    So the wife and I decided to get a TSX to replace our 10 year old car that is breaking down quickly with each passing day.

    I had a price range in mind. When the dealer fell 200 short I left and my wife became annoyed saying that I am fighting over peanuts especially when u consider what 200, 500 even a thousand comes out to per month over a 4,5 year period.

    She said either you want the car or you don't and a few bucks shouldnt make the difference. We ended up getting the car for 100 less than my original range.

    Any thoughts? Is this just a woman being a woman or me being petty and cheap?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Think of it a the extra gas cost when you continue on and don't ask directions when you are lost :)

    However, you will probably get a better deal in the long run tenacity pays off.

    Actually If you wait until September when the new TLs come out the price of the TSXs will drop much much closer to invoice and actually that is only 3 months away.

    Good luck with the boss and with the car stealers <sic, dealers>
  • ranaldranald Posts: 147

    If you really want the car, and that dealer is the only one in the area then you're probably being a bit unrealistic ('petty and cheap' would be overstating it a bit, IMO) and your wife seems to have a little more perspective.

    If you're interested in the car but buying isn't urgent, or if there are other dealers in the area and you want to comparison shop a little then I think you're being pretty sensible and your wife is being an easy sell.
  • redkey1redkey1 Posts: 270
    You are just being stubborn at that point.
  • stretchsjestretchsje Posts: 700
    ...then it should've been nothing for the dealer to come down that much.

    Who cares what $200 is over 60 months? I care that $200 is a day skiing with the wife, or a 7-day pass to Disney World, or my first 125 gallons of gas free. That's not stubborn. That's setting a "worth" in your mind and sticking to it. If it's not worth giving up a ski trip to get the car....

    That's eating Chipotle (good lunch) free for a month. That's free cable for 6 months. That's oil changes for half of the car's life. Heck, that's one big night in a strip club, if that's your thing... $200 is a lot! Putting it in the context of a $25k-$30k purchase doesn't make the $200 any less important than $200 saved on a $201 purchase.
  • I don't know what all you were negotiating with Parker, but how about getting closer by having some accessories thrown in. Dealers can be willing to do that.
  • if you really want the car. The house always wins, especially when they hold all the cards. And with the popularity of the TSX, these Acura dealers are sitting pretty. I give you credit for sticking to your guns and getting them to meet you half way.

    In the end, it whether or not you really want the car. If you really like it, it's worth the extra $200 (or more even)- what the hell, right? If you feel you're beyond your comfort zone regarding what you want to pay for the car and the TSX doesn't do anything special for you, then $200 is a great excuse to walk away.

    It's a litmus test of sorts.

  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    i don't follow the logic that says the tsx will be cheaper to buy (hopes it's true though) once the tl is available, especially if honda doesn't increase production. they are two different kind of cars. the TL will still be more luxury than sport. it will be interesting to see how much further RL sales diminish once the new TL is available.

    in the long run, i think the tsx will still be the more appealing car.

    parker: what what your price range? how much below sticker did you get the car for?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    What in the world is that car still doing around?
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    When negotiating a purchase, never think of money as sone percent of the total amount or some $/month figure. $200 spends the same whether you get a $300 stereo for $100 or a $102,000 car for $101,800. If you think you can get the $200 by negotiating another 30-minutes, then you just made $400/hour, which is significant in most people's scheme of things.

    This philosophy has nothing to do with being cheap or petty. If you get good service from someone, then spend the little extra for that service - consider it a tip if you want. Likewise, if you need the car and the best you can do is $200 more than you planned on spending, then for heaven's sake, spend the $200. There are lots of examples of people walking away from a purchase to try and get the last dollar out of a deal and ending up not getting anything. Do the best you can do but don't try and do better.

    And don't focus on the "deal". Some cars are good values at MSRP and some aren't. I see a lot of posts where people say, "I'm never going to spend more than $200 over invoice on any car." That's the kind of attitude that gets you a Chevy Cavalier at $200 over invoice, which is a good deal but a poor value.

    - Mark
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "If $200 is so rediculous, then it should've been nothing for the dealer to come down that much."

    I agree with Stretchsje on this one. Money is money. And Markjenn gives some excellent advice on deal vs value.

    It might be worth your time to go back and tell the sales person that you want the car, you will pay the price, but if you have to pay those $200 you will not be a happy customer, and you will not recommend them.

    On the other hand, if they do take the hit, they will have a happy customer who is willing to be positive with the after sale survey, recommend them to friends, and deal with them for service (assuming you are in fact willing to do all that).

    Essentially, you give them the choice of picking the carrot or the stick.
  • redkey1redkey1 Posts: 270
    "I had a price range in mind. When the dealer fell 200 short I left and my wife became annoyed ..."

    "...We ended up getting the car for 100 less than my original range."

    So, if my math is right you were fighting over $200 even though you were in your desired range? Then I would say you are being petty. While I agree that $200 is $200, if you are arguing for $200 to get a $100 vs $300 over invoice deal it is ridiculous to get up and leave the deal on the table. How much is your time worth? If you had to go to another dealer and re-work the deal (with no guarantee that you'd get it) you are taking up time, which to me is valuable. $200 is worth it to not have to spend an entire weekend driving all over the state, wrestling with dealers. For $1000, maybe. To me, time is money.

    BTW, what kind of deal did you end up getting?
  • parker19parker19 Posts: 59
    I never realized $200 would bring out so many opinions or is it because I mentioned my wife.

    I got the car at $500 off sticker which from reading this board seems to be roughly the going rate give or take a few bucks. Of course, after reading some of these posts, I thought I could get more off. It was probably more about ego than what I could affort to get as much off as possible but like the last post said, after a while it got old scanning the globe to try to save a few extra bucks.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,862
    I believe what auto mfrs are striving for is the complete opposite of what you stated. Mfrs want to build multiple vehicles on the same line with no delay in changeover. Honda already makes RH and LH drive vehicles on the same lines without delay.

    I find it hard to believe that Japanese companies are reverting back to batch processing after spending decades developing kaizan (pull demand) and SMED (single minute exchange of dies) techniques. Factories need to flexible and lean so they can respond to demand almost instantly. Building what they can and stockpiling is not lean.

    Yes subassemblies are typically built by a supplier and they may be located 10 miles away or around the world, but they are required to be lean as well and be ready to make what the factory needs and deliver it in the sequence and timeframe required.
  • jay108jay108 Posts: 52
    $200 aint much these days. I personally need to adjust my concept of the value of money. I still think anything over 20,000 is alot, but in reality, I should change my opinion to anything over $35,000 or $40,000.
    I would say TSX is a pretty good value priced as is.

    Having a happy wife may be the greatest value of all.
  • viper0074viper0074 Posts: 56
    Wife happy ... Life happy ...

    Congrats on your purchase. It's a nice car.

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    You'd be amazed at how cheap you become.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    initial off the lot depreciation into account :( Then $200 is a drop in the bucket.
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    Lean mfg and batching like I said are not mutually exclusive. There is tremendous coordination between suppliers and the final mfg of a vehicle to make JIT (just in time) methods work. The TSX dashes, made in a batch one week, may be screwed into cars as a batch a week later.

    Whether your point or mine is more valid, the end effect on this discussion is the same: The US market can't just tell the factory to make 10% more next month.

    For better or worse, Honda thinks 15K units is the right number. And I've seen about as many posts saying that their dealers have a surplus and are doing modest deals as saying that there is long waiting list. And a lot of posts saying that once the newness wears off, the car is going to be another Vigor or Prelude slow-seller. So it appears to me like they got it about right.

    - Mark
  • elrod03elrod03 Posts: 12
    I wonder if the supply of TSXs will decrease, and demand increase, as more people find out about the car. Everyone who has seen my TSX had not heard that Acura has a new model in their lineup. I haven't seen a single commercial for the car and only one billboard in the last 2 months and, believe me, I would have noticed. Also, most car buyers do not regularly visit websites such as Edmunds to keep up to date on new models, etc. What do you think?
  • I finnaly saw a TSX as I drove the NJ area. As I said before, I did visit the dealer and test drove two (man &n auto).

    I wish there were more out there! There's something uniqye about seeing the car one likes drive by. I'm not sure if u guys agree but to see it "in real life" out side the dealership and outside a "sales" situation.

    To tell everyone the truth...I was not too impresed when I saw it out there. I considered it small and a bit bland. I did speek out about the bland thing but oh well!!!! Thats probable just me.
  • uncledaviduncledavid Posts: 548
    when the new TL comes out. A few of us (including myself) needed to buy a car, wanted an Acura/Honda product and didn't want to wait for the new TL. If the TL was out, I might have spent more an bought it instead.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    200 hp and 166 ftlb is not enough in the current car area contest to attract buyers of sporty performance /near-luxury vehicles. Would have been 5 years ago and maybe even a couple of years ago, but cars like the Altima 3.5 changed the playing field and now in most cases 200 horsepower sits on the sales bench.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    Why are people saying they are flying out of the dealers lots due to some massive demand for TSXs?
    I saw way more G35 sedans on the road the week those were first released.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    They are 1/4 of the way there in less than 2 months. They are flying in comparison to estimates.

    Kinda like the G35 coupe. There's such high demand since they only want to sell like 12,000 this year.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "The TL will kill the TSX sales."

    I have to disagree with you on that one. The TL will probably outperform the TSX in most every measurable way, but the TSX will still weigh less, be more nimble and fun to drive, and of course, it'll be less expensive.

    Although not in the same class, consider the Mazda Miata. Perhaps the most well balanced, fun to drive car on the road today. It single-handedly reinvented a market that had all but disappeared; with only a 116 hp four cylinder engine.

    The TSX is by no means in the same league as the Miata, but more than a little of the spirit (and driving dynamics) is there...
This discussion has been closed.