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Acura TSX
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Fed: congrats. It's a fun car and a great value. If you don't mind, how much did you pay?
True, the TSX is not quite as composed on the road as the BMW, but it is, in it's own right, an extremely competent sedan...more than a match for the next batch on the list (A4, 9-3, C-class). So, once the BMW fell off my list (due to reasons previously discussed), it was my next logical choice.
Dynamically, the TSX is a notch or two below the 325i. It rides a little harsher and is a little noisier. In return, however, it has slightly sharper turn-in and a "lighter on it's feet." The TSX also has a 6-speed transmission that's second to none, and notably more precise than the BMW unit.
I also prefer the appointments and comfort of the TSX interior. Unlike the BMW, which is just OK, I immediately fell in love with the TSX cockpit when I first saw pictures of the tan/wood interior with luminescent instruments here at Edmunds.
Finally, one of the TSX's biggest weakness also turned out to be a big strength for me...it's Accord heritage. I traded in a gem of a 10 year-old Accord, and I confidently expect the TSX to serve me and my growing family reliably and economically into the next decade.
So, I sacrificed a small measure of performance and refinement that, realistically, I would have rarely enjoyed anyway, and in return, I got a lot of pluses and saved more than a few G's in the process.
I'll keep and enjoy the TSX for many years, and when I'm finally ready to drop serious $ for my dream car, I'll look at BMW again.
The usual test numbers include, 0-60 in 7.2s (same as Integra GS-R), 5-60 in 7.7s, QM in 15.6 s @ 91 mph and skid pad at 0.85g.
The car they tested had NAV.
Incidently, I read the C & D article and I think it amplified my concern that there is a Honda/Acura bias in the media. Their comment that the TSX rides about as well as an Accord (which is tuned for ride comfort - not handling) is pure nonsense. It wasn't a very objective review.
I think MT is dead wrong. Believe me, if you replace the springs w/ softer ones like Accord's(probably will fit), you can see how long the travel is, for sure longer than Mazda6's. I know the TSX's got firmer springs(& maybe shocks, too) than the Euro Accord, but didn't say it's LOWERED like the way 3-series does w/ its sport suspension.
"C & D...Their comment that the TSX rides about as well as an Accord (which is tuned for ride comfort - not handling) is pure nonsense. It wasn't a very objective review."
To give C&D the benefit of the doubt, by the way ;-), they probably drive the car so fast that the firm long springs finally calmed down. But then we don't have C&D's closed-course fast tracks...
Since then nothing else has happened and the alarm/keyless system has worked fine. Do you guys think I should be concerned? I haven't been able to repeat the problem so I believe taking it to the dealer is pointless.
Any thoughts?
kyfdx
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How do you find the ride? Some people have stated that it was stiff?
You stated that "gas consumption was great". Could you explain what you meant by that?
The lack of the fob working could be just a weak battery...?
March 15 2002. I got pissed off by this and walked across the dealers parking lot to an Infiniti dealer, the G35 had just been released and I did a deal right on the spot and drove the car away two days later. I have not had any regrets since, love my G35. As far as the 3.2 TL that my wife test drove, only reason we went to look at one is because the lease interest rate was 3.8% and they are giving the car away well below last years prices. The 3.2 is a nice car but is being completely re designed for 2004 for which cars should start arriving at the dealers in a few months. What I did not like is the fact the car has become outdated and is looking rather bland to me. Everytime I see a regular 3.2 TL on the road it is being driven by older people ( not to say that I have anything against older people),I just believe that the because of the size and the wealth of options that the 3.2 comes with , it seems to be taken over by the older generation that wants all the luxury and comforts that the car has to offer at a very affordable price. It has become a great alternative to the big GM and Chryslers that these people have been use to driving over the years. This is only my opinion and I do not mean to slight anyone that has opted for the 3.2TL
As far as the suspension on the TSX, you have to keep in mind that this car is being marketed as a sports sedan , hence the stiffer suspension. If you test drive a 3.2TL Type S you will find that the ride is completely different from the regular 3.2 as it also has a sports suspension.
When I got my G35 it came in a regular suspension and a sports suspension. I opted for the regular suspension as I had come out of a big SUV and I was tired of a hard suspension. The TSX only comes with one suspension and that is a sports one. However I do not find it to harsh .
As far a gas consumption, my wife has gotten well over 500 kms ( 300 miles ) out of a tank of gas.
My G35 get about 430 kms ( 268 miles) and has a bigger gas tank. Of course my G35 is a 6 Cylinder 260 HP and the TSX is 4 Cyl 200 HP. My wife came out of a Pathfinder so of course I am very pleased with the TSX as there is a major savings on gas which helps make the payments on the TSX.
Anything else? let me know .
- Mark
Once you filter out all the happiness and light, the TSX is shown to be the best-sorted car in its segment, but even the C&D fawners said it needs more power. Ouch.
And to characterize their assessment of the engine as "needs more power" is really focusing on a tree rather than the forest. Their only power criticisms were to say, "perfectionists might want more power", and that the chassis is so good, it could handle extra hp as Honda likely ups the power in future versions. Otherwise, they said exactly want most of us who have driven the car have said: It's got very satisfying power and excellent balance between the chassis and the engine.
- Mark
regards,
kyfdx
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My point, however, was that a purely objective source would not equate the ride of the TSX and Accord. The TSX does take bumps and broken pavement pretty well but it also gives you a choppy ride at times and it handles rippled freeways pretty poorly. That is my only real complaint about the TSX.
I agree with the spirt of the C & D's review. I love the balance of the TSX and think it is a wonderful vehicle overall.
I thought this month's Motor Trend had a more even handed take on the TSX (although I'm fairly confident that their 0-to-60 estimates significantly underestimate the capabilities of the TSX - no other source has obtained such weak numbers). Motor Trend was critical of the lack of wheel travel on the TSX, and found some of the controls (with Navi) to be complex. Fair points, IMO.
I'm not saying they're wrong about the TSX, but not even a comment about the tepid exterior styling? C'mon!
My two test-drives (one MT, one AT) both left me with the impression the car's power is basically adequate, but nothing to get excited about. It puts up the same numbers that the '94 Integra GS-R did with 30 fewer horsepower. (Yes it weighs ~600lbs. more, but it still illustrates how the performance of the TSX is behind the pace set by even its ancestors.)
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I think C&D writes glowing reviews when a vehicle meets their expectations and the goals of the car. They write in context to the vehicle's capabilities IMHO.
(A little off the subject, but everybody complains that CR has a bias against American cars, yet this month, they rated a Lincoln LS and Cadillac CTS higher than the highly regarded G35 and Maxima. I guess CR's biases change on every review.)
On the TSX review, it WAS a good review, but no more glowing than the one for the Lexus RX330, MB S600, or Ferrari Enzo in the same issue. C&D likes lots of cars - they're in a business where it pays to like lots of cars. The review of the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP wasn't as glowing, but I don't detect bias - I detect a mediocre car.
When someone says that an opinion they do agree with is biased or one they don't agree with is unbiased, then I listen. Otherwise, you're just tooting your own horn.
- Mark
Opinions. I've got one, you've got one, C&D has one. The C&D review was spot-on in most areas, but there was so much gushing going on I felt like I needed to dry my hands after reading it.
I can see why C&D likes most BMW and Honda vehicles. Those cars strive to maintain the benchmark in their class. If they were flat-out biased for the two automakers, we would not see BMW 760iL finishing second in comparison test against MB S600. Acura RL is definitely not in their favorite list, and gets bashed, and IMO, deservedly so.
As far as Nissan products are concerned, I believe the views are not unlike those for, say Grand Prix (same issue). Refinement in execution and the feel aspect of the car as a whole may be playing a role. You will rarely see a Honda being discussed as having cheap-feeling interior or steering getting tugged around during acceleration, or a harsh/unrefined ride.
himiler
Once you filter out all the happiness and light, the TSX is shown to be the best-sorted car in its segment, but even the C&D fawners said it needs more power. Ouch.
Which car doesn't? While most of us do not need weight to power ratio better than, say, 16-17 lb. per HP, we still think more power when it comes to it. How much power is enough? Is 260 HP that G35 or TL-S deliver, enough, for a $30-32K car?
I'm not saying they're wrong about the TSX, but not even a comment about the tepid exterior styling? C'mon!
I don't see why styling would be an issue with TSX. IMO, the car looks nice and substantial in person much more than pictures tend to suggest. I have seen two on the road so far.
The only issue I have with the road test is that they should not compare performance numbers of cars tested on different days and under different conditions.
As for the "tepid" styling, many of us really like the way the car looks. I don't fault C & D for not being critical on those grounds.
The TSX looks "nice?" As in, "I had a nice bowl of soup for lunch." or maybe, "Sure, Honey, that sweater looks nice on you."? Hardly a ringing endorsement.
Keep in mind I drive an incredibly dull-looking vechicle, so I'm not particularly concerned with fashion. But, in any other review, C&D would opine on styling. It's not like they called it "aggressively sporting," -- they simply failed to say anything about it.
What do we need to do?
Nice as in good looking car (thats what the TSX is). I don't think one would confuse a car for a sweater or a bowl of soup! ;-)
Regarding power, what is good power for a 3250 lb. car IYO? IMO, 200 HP is more than enough, if not 'impressive' or 'oh yes!'.
Depends on what kind of car, now doesn't it.
If you're happy with 200HP and don't think you'd use another 20 (and why not?), then have at it.
HP is pretty darn useless for what most people are worried about and that's the car's torque. The torque is what gives you the sit-back-in-the-seat crush.
166 lb-ft isn't much for a luxury car. True it's a flat torque curve on the TSX and it sure didn't feel that low but when it's all said and done, the TSX doesn't offer the sensation of boom and you're off.
Same w/ its steering feedback this time, 'cause last time C&D was the only source that revealed its "numbness in sensing tire adhesion". Honda must have been yelling at C&D to "keep it quiet".
It's always funny to see the blunt & brave C&D leaking out "prohibited" info other magazines wouldn't dare to. If not a single article ever criticized the TSX's steering feedback, then I'd be the one yelling "what the hell..." as soon as I detected the "zero-feedback" during my test drive.
FYI, the Euro Accord's got some steering feedback. So by replacing the bushings on the TSX w/ the Euro Accord's stiffer ones should help.
I remember when the Lexus LS400 1st came out, C&D ranked it 1st place ahead of the old S-class & 7-series. Then it must be the German big 2 complaining to C&D, "How dare you placing us behind a Toyota!" So C&D had to do another follow-up comparison w/ LWB versions of these 2 Germans ranking ahead of the Lexus LS400 w/ reasons something like "pampering the passengers even better".
Now, the ride quality is another issue altogether. My complaint with the TSX is that it is a poor compromise between handling and ride.
And you forgot gearing, again! All that more torque does is get you more power at that engine speed. The seat-to-pants feel does not come entirely off torque, but also gearing. 500 lb.-ft in Viper may be impressive number, but if you do not care about gearing, it is useless.
And nothing tells more about both at the same time than power. If you have got more HP at a given speed, you would have more seat-to-pants feel.
FYI, the Euro Accord's got some steering feedback. So by replacing the bushings on the TSX w/ the Euro Accord's stiffer ones should help.
How would you know that Creakid1? Honda does not offer a sport version of Accord in Europe (Type-S package in Europe is basically a cosmetic package). My experience with Honda steering is that it gets better at higher speeds, while some cars have sharp low-speed steering that fades away as the speed increases. Now Honda, where is that VGS system?
blueguy -- for a car as slippery as the TSX, the C&D-observed top speed of 133MPH is on the low side, likely a result of having insufficient top-end reserves to overcome what drag there is
I wonder about it. European magazines have posted a top speed of 143-147 mph for 190 HP Accord and about 135 mph for the 155 HP Accord. For some reason, C&D top speed numbers are on the low side, as I remember their comparison of family sedans in which they posted a top speed of only (about) 125 mph.
The TSX is definately a car that you could cruise all day at a comfortable 80-90MPH, and it felt unaffected by crosswinds.
The present 330i is no big deal in steering feedback, even the G35 has more(albeit less precision). You got to drive the older E36 318i to see what a real involving steering is. & BMW is trying to bring it back in the next-yr 1-series follow by the next 3-series.
"Now, the ride quality is another issue altogether. My complaint with the TSX is that it is a poor compromise between handling AND ride."
It would be really sad if this is true. The TSX still has extremely competent high-level of handling w/ a high suspension capacity to take deep bumps even when cornering hard. You just have to press the suspension aggressively by either going faster over ripples/bumps to force the springs into compression or even adding downhill braking simultaneously. Again, the handling level is high, only the feedback portion of this precise well-weighted steering sucks.
My advise is, "If you really must have the TSX's elegant interior/exterior, just get a TSX & put on a set of Accord springs, but do expect less neutral handling not unlike the way the Euro Accord behaves."
"And yet C&D suggested that the suspension be tuned one step firmer? Makes you wonder..." if C&D was sampling an 1-off softly sprung set up?
robertsmx - I just drove about 800 Miles in my TSX last weekend. In between Fresno and LA, I did 80 - 85 MPH most of the way (with traffic passing me, btw, despite the posted speed limit of 70!). The TSX was rock solid. In fact, the problem I sometimes have is that the car is so stable at high speeds that I forget how fast I am driving. The car sticks to the road at any speed.
From my experience with a TSX manual, this just isn't true. Undulations in the road at 80+ cause the TSX to feel extremely floaty. On corners the front dips drastically at hyper-legal speeds. Add in a rolling hill and the backend of the TSX will literally lift up, unloading the suspension and shifting the center of gravity far more forward.
You just have to press the suspension aggressively by either going faster over ripples/bumps to force the springs into compression or even adding downhill braking simultaneously. Again, the handling level is high, only the feedback portion of this precise well-weighted steering sucks.
The handling level may be high for joe average driver. For my driving style the car felt like its limits are reached far sooner than I'd prefer.
Drive a Buick at 80 (I just did this for a week awhile back) on any freeway and you'll know float. It's a stomach churning experience in my book.
How would you know that Creakid1? Honda does not offer a sport version of Accord in Europe (Type-S package in Europe is basically a cosmetic package)."
According to the June issue CAR comparison test, the Euro Accord(w/ 15") "With less feel at the wheel than the Mondeo(w/ 16") - the Accord suffers from too much power assistance rather than real depth of feeling"
So you don't even need a sport model & the feedback is already there, & our TSX's got a fairly-heavy pwr-steering w/ 17", only the TSX's softer bushings severred it. As a Porsche 944/Rabbit engineer pointed out that harder bushings are essential for steering feel.
"My experience with Honda steering is that it gets better at higher speeds, while some cars have sharp low-speed steering that fades away as the speed increases"
Well, maybe some members in our family were spoiled by the C220's rock steadiness at high speeds, we find holding on to the TSX's steering less reassuring as the car's cruising speed goes up while the C220 remained confident inspiring no matter what speed.
- Mark
"'HP is pretty darn useless for what most people are worried about and that's the car's torque. The torque is what gives you the sit-back-in-the-seat crush.'
And you forgot gearing, again! All that more torque does is get you more power at that engine speed. The seat-to-pants feel does not come entirely off torque, but also gearing. 500 lb.-ft in Viper may be impressive number, but if you do not care about gearing, it is useless."
As someone in the "Mazda6 vs TSX" thread pointed out that his test drive of the 6s vs TSX has shown a push in the 6s's acceleration but not so in the TSX. They both got weak low end, but the 6s's V6 has a much stronger mid range while the TSX has to wait till high end rpm to finally achieve close-to-200 hp. So even low gearing in the TSX won't get you the obvious "abrupt" thrust as the hp increment is linear all the way.
I wonder if the comfier-riding-than-TSX 325i w/o sport suspension can handle high speed bumps/dips calmly? If so, than the TSX is indeed WAY inferior than the 325i in ride/handling compromise.
I really don't know if Honda already tuned the TSX the best setting possible, but sounds like more shock rebound & less spring firmness might help.