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Acura TSX
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Actually, I thought the 6 speed TSX had a nice dose of power. Was it slap you back in the seat G35 / 330i power? No. But it was enough to make the car very enjoyable for a pretty darn good price.
Don't forget that this was a comparo and this econo-box was quicker than the other two econo-box like performers delivered by Saab and Mercedes. None of them could match luxury car performance of Dodge Neon SRT4 though. ;-)
I would clearly not worry more about the BMW than any of the Japanese or American cars I've owned.
I would.
The 6-speed helps but still there is just not enough torque (only 2.4 liters, 1666 ft-lbs) and not enought horsepower (200 HP) for the weight of the car (1/3 of an elephant)
200 HP is more than enough, if not groundbreaking, in a 3230 lb. car. As for torque, and effectiveness of engine torque, you need to look at torque multiplication. Don't ignore that MT mentioned launch difficulties due to wheel hop from TSX. Why would that happen? More torque and/or lower weight would only make it worse. If they would, does the TSX really lack torque at the wheels? I doubt.
You can get around it by slipping the clutch, but that won't do much for you at the dragstrip (which strikes me as an odd concern for someone buying a TSX).
You can get around it by slipping the clutch, but that won't do much for you at the dragstrip (which strikes me as an odd concern for someone buying a TSX).
People buying TSX for racing on drag strips would be a concern to me.
Aren't you glad that the BMW 325i was not included in this comparison test? It would eat all of these cars for breakfast, lunch, dinner and dessert (save the turbo Neon)! It's true none of the previously said cars can match Turbo Neon's straight line performance. You turbocharge/supercharge any econobox but in the end it'll still be a lowly econobox with cheap materials, no refinement and most importantly, no prestige.
"7.9 to 60 is pretty good, after all it is almost as fast as the 4-cyl Accord, and with only a 5 mpg penalty in highway mileage. ; ^ )"
7.9 seconds from 0-60mph is pretty good? Maybe pretty good 10 years ago or if this car was not being promoted as some "sports sedan aimed at premium European marques." Heck, even a lowly econobox Toyota Corolla does 0-60mph in about the same time. FYI, the '03 Accords can do 0-60mph in about 7.5 seconds and it gets better fuel economy than the TSX and it does not require premium octane like the TSX. TSX = overpriced, underperforming IMHO.
Honestly, what would a 325i be doing in that comparo? Unless you're getting a great deal or the car's stripped, it's tough to find one for under 30k.
Prestige? Come on, it's a car! I know CSRs who drive GS400s and 325i's. They live with their parents and spend their salaries on cars. Do these kids suddenly have prestige associated with them over a badge on the hood?
The TSX's level of refinement and equipment, in my opinion, beats the 325i at almost every turn, save for the suspension and drivetrain. Considering a 6 speed can be purchased for about 25k (and the 6 speed has far more go than a slushbox), the TSX's a great deal. If one measures their near luxury car based on slalom numbers then the 325i is great...for a price. As for acceleration, I've driven both and the 325i may be marginally faster with a manual in both vehicles. But it's not night and day.
Not sure, but I thought I detected a dose of TIC, tongue-in-cheek.
BGDC - isn't the BMW noted for it's smooth drivetrain and suspension. After all, isn't that the hallmark of BMW. A lot of lesser priced cars beat the BMW on the interior and equipment, but that doesn't make them better drivers cars. Now, I know that's not what you said, but if you compare interiors the BMWs interior is not better than a lot of lesser priced Japanese models.
True. But the point was made about potential of wheel hop in RWD cars as well.
if there is any wheel hop, which wouldn't occur anyway with the DSC enabled in normal driving conditions no matter how you flog the car. Without traction control you can wheel hop any vehicle in any situation given enough engine power.
You could do the same in TSX (comes with VSA standard anyway). Switching it off would affect drag performance. That said, I agree with the last statement. Now people can stop whining about lack of power in TSX. ;-)
No, I wish it were included regardless of how stripped it had to be.
It's true none of the previously said cars can match Turbo Neon's straight line performance. You turbocharge/supercharge any econobox but in the end it'll still be a lowly econobox with cheap materials, no refinement and most importantly, no prestige.
Then, what was your point on econobox like performance about? Confused?
FYI, the '03 Accords can do 0-60mph in about 7.5 seconds and it gets better fuel economy than the TSX and it does not require premium octane like the TSX. TSX = overpriced, underperforming IMHO
First, why did Accord EX/manual did 0-60 in 7.5s in one test and TSX took 7.9s in this test? To top it off, a more powerful and torquier turbocharged Saab 9-3 Arc was even slower in the TSX comparison! To start with, the curb weights of the three cars are within range.
Secondly, TSX is a car for those who can afford its premium price tag and be able to put premium octane. Under performing? Well, that is your opinion, without having driven the car.
The point I am trying to make is, if it is that easy to lose traction in TSX (assuming VSA is off), can we still complain about get up and go lack of torque and/or power?
Yes, but not everybody thinks a near luxury sedan should be a roadhandling marvel. Look at the number of ES300s sold! A friend of mine commented that my car rides too roughly, but then again, she owns a TL. Obviously, we're looking for two very different things from our cars.
A lot of lesser priced cars beat the BMW on the interior and equipment, but that doesn't make them better drivers cars. Now, I know that's not what you said, but if you compare interiors the BMWs interior is not better than a lot of lesser priced Japanese models.
That's true. Again different buyers gauge all these factors on a subjective scale.
I still stand by my assertion that for the money the performance of the TSX, though below the 325i's prowess, is a great deal. Lots of feaures, responsive little engine and a great price.
The TSX may well be a very nice car for the money, but if you're looking for the ultimate in handling, compared to a blend of luxury and near performance the TSX may not be your cup of tea as it is FWD.
Definately tongue in cheeck (as mentioned above by kdshapiro) - I even put a little winking guy at the end.
That comparo includes a 4-cyl Kompressor C-class sedan with sport package. How much is that? A $28k 325i 5-sp w/o sport package already handles pretty well, rides smoother, & important luxury std features are plenty - DSC stability, all-windows up&down(both one touch & remote), 2 separate-feature customized keys, auto climate, even heated windshield-washer nozzles, & not to mention charcoal air-purifier & a normally-aspirated inline-6. Spending $950 more, you get a 3-memory power driver seat that also memorizes the mirrors' positions & tilt one down automatically for reverse.
For comfort alone, the 325i is already the winner.
That's one of the selling points that swayed me. Make an appointment, have it taken care of, get a loaner pick it up.
The Honda and Acura dealers near me keep you waiting in a sort of cheese line.
So, exactly what does it prove if one has the ability to purchase the TSX AND the premium fuel that it requires?
In light of the fact that the premium fuel doesn't give the TSX a performance (or fuel economy) advantage over the 4-cylinder Accord, I'd suggest that a TSX owner might place a higher priority on having the notion of a "premium" car than actually obtaining one.
Until Acura shrugs off its fixation with FWD cars, it will lack the prestige that BMW takes for granted (in spite of Mr. Bangle's best efforts).
So for 6-8k extra you get an awesome suspension, inline 6 and RWD. To the average buyer that's a big leap for a payoff most people can't feel.
Himiler, I guess perception is reality. If people bestow a level of prestige upon a BMW then the general public does value it as such. Not sure why. It's a car. A very fun car but not worthy of reverance or immediate respect.
It proves everything along the lines that bmw_fan brought up about owning a BMW. See above.
In light of the fact that the premium fuel doesn't give the TSX a performance (or fuel economy) advantage over the 4-cylinder Accord…
May I ask for the source of 'the fact' that you believe in?
Even if the folks driving around in BMWs don't have prestige, the cars still do.
Good cars have prestige, no matter what you and I think, who drives them, or which wheels are driven.
Yes, one can get a 325i with only the SP for less than $30k but I don't think someone in the market for a TSX with all its standard equipment will go for that.
BGDT, you must drive the north 110 fwy, home of the 0-60 in 15 ft on-ramps. I used to live in Pasadena and it amazes me that caltrans doesn't do anything about them.
Does Elantra have the same status as 325? No. They are completely different cars, serving different purpose and audience.
Does Elantra have the same reputation as 325? What do you think? Again, we are talking about two very different cars, in completely different class.
Does Elantra have the same cachet/distinction as 325? I doubt because in America, BMWs are still rare and the company tries hard to not make the car mainstream. OTOH, Hyundai cannot afford to do the same.
Is Elantra as good as 325? You tell me. It may be a better car in some regards, but from performance point of view, it is not. So, which one would you pick to draw conclusion?
So, is Elantra as prestigious as 325? You tell me, because IMO, cars sell if they have something going for them, like reputation.
Why go to Elantra? Forget prestige comparisons between Mercedes and Jaguar versus BMW. Even within the family, did BMW 318 have the same prestige as BMW M3?
If you're unsure about the meaning of "prestige," then perhaps you shouldn't attribute it to "good cars," which the Elantra GT qualifies as.
An Auto or manual? The manual 325i's I drove were about 7 second cars. The TSX manual I drove was in that same league, maybe a hair slower. Actually the I4 on the TSX was more engaging to me than the 325i's 6.
They do not feel similar when driven.
That's for darn certain.
But their price difference similarly equipped is HUGE. $6500-7500 with MT now that the TSX is starting to be discounted and even more if you want AT. I don't think BOTH cars will remain on shoppers short lists for very long--they didn't on mine. Either they have the money for the 325i and think it worth the extra $$$ or they don't and get the TSX. I don't want to get into lease-buy arguments here.
Agreed all the way around.
Yes, one can get a 325i with only the SP for less than $30k but I don't think someone in the market for a TSX with all its standard equipment will go for that.
I agree. If the TSX is on your list it's because you want luxury and some hints at performance with value. If the performance with a touch of luxury is the key, then the 3 series climbs to the top.
BGDT, you must drive the north 110 fwy, home of the 0-60 in 15 ft on-ramps. I used to live in Pasadena and it amazes me that caltrans doesn't do anything about them.
San Diego actually and we have several super short on-ramps here too. One near my house offers maybe 20 feet before cars are slamming into you. Not a fun prospect in an older car.
Besides, if man didn't build stuff, who would?
"Actually the I4 on the TSX was more engaging to me than the 325i's 6."
The TSX does have a higher redline--always a fun thing about Honda engines. There is a certain "entertainment" value that comes with revving the engine into the upper reaches of the tach.
Short on-ramps are downright scary--you need the other drivers' cooperation. I'm glad the much longer on-ramps in Long Beach offer more in the way of safety and fun.
They sell over 100k 3-series a year in the US and they are still rare? Perhaps in rural America they are, but they're more common than Chevies in southern California.
Oh, and there's no such thing as prestige for cars. It's a marketting gimmick...
Do you realize, as is the case here, that some words can have multiple usages with varying effects? If you don’t, then ignore my point. If you do, think about it, because prestige is as much about reputation as it is about distinction or cachet or whatever synonym you may like to use. Let me go back to your question:
"The Hyundai Elantra GT is a good car. Would you say it has the same level of prestige as a 3-Series? "
Do you notice that the two statements are disconnected? In the first, Elantra is mentioned as an absolute object with its character. In the second, you use a relational logic. I will use an example along the same lines to make you think.
BMW 325 is a good car. Does it have the same level of prestige as BMW M3? Or should the question be more like,
BMW 325 is a good car. Does it have prestige?
Your turn.
More like 70-75K per year. That is definitely rare for the highest volume car from an established automaker.
Oh, and there's no such thing as prestige for cars. It's a marketting gimmick...
You might want to ask himiler about the meaning of prestige. IMO, some cars do have reputation that helps them sell. But to many buyers, prestige may be limited to 'look at me' attitude. Either way, it is all about marketing though, with or without fancy words.
All theories aside, the TSX is a good car for someone looking for a small 4-door FWD vehicle, if it were priced $2K cheaper....even if it is priced higher, I am sure that competitive market pressures will bring the price down to what the TSX is truly worth.
Later...AH
Amen. I really enjoy driving my BMW but in the end it's still just a car. A fun car but still plastic, rubber and metal.
Hunter, in socal the TSXes are already priced below MSRP. At 24-25k it's a kickin' deal. I was close to pulling the trigger even though the car didn't light my fire like a 3. In the end that ZHP was too much to pass up.
QM: 15.6 @ 91 mph
Skidpad - 0.85
The TSX is typical Honda: great torquey 4-cyl, rev-to-the-moon feel with light flywheels, almost delicate shifter, very light clutch, not much torque steer but a lot of front wheel activity accelerating over bumpy pavement. In short it feels solid but light and playful. The ergos, instruments, controls, and electronics are supremely user-friendly and obvious. The car feels almost feminine.
The BMW is very solid, stable, button-downed, and heavy feeling. The shifter and clutch are much more substantial, the engine revs more slowly, and the RWD allows you much more precise steering while accelerating. It feels supremely solid, stable, and substantial. The ergos and controls inside are Ok, but it has a "you will do it the German way" feel to it and the climate controls, nav, etc. are way down from the Honda stuff. The car feels masculine.
If you want a Japanses light-hearted car with a little S2000 soul, get the TSX. If you want the serious German, you-will-do-it-may-way performance machine, go for the 325. One is Venus and the other is Mars.
Being male, I'd go with the BMW, but I completely understand why some folks love the TSX. For the type of car the TSX is, its at the top of the heap.
- Mark
Comfort wise, the TSX isn't doing very well!
Real leather actually provides less comfort than cloth both summer & winter, not to mention less grip for lateral support. Too bad only the Canadian 325i gets the (no-cost)cloth option.
Moonroof? Nobody in the household has been using it. All I know is that the headroom it takes away might be a good excuse for Acura to not providing seat-height adjustment for the low front passenger seat, which made the short wife complained that she couldn't see out over this unusually-high Honda dashboard. Even the pwr driver seat's lack of memory feature is making this couple having difficulty returning the previous seating position by counting the number of clicks/turns as on a manual driver seat.
Xenon, if you really need it, $700 more will get your BMW bi-xenon.
Dual-zone auto climate? The owners are complaining about the bad smell from outside frequently. Why? It lacks neither an hydrocarbon/carbon-dioxide sensor to switch to recirculate-mode automatically nor does it have a charcoal air purifier. The 325i got both.
17" & still cannot provide steering feedback? I wonder if that was why MT found its handling less sharp than the relatively-dull C230 sport sedan. I'm sure the 17" is contributing part of the stiff, although not harsh, ride, despite the high g-force handling it provides.
Except after the warranty expires, the 325i is a better value because for just under $30k w/ memory seat & bi-xenon, its level of comfort(ride, etc.) & driving pleasure(steering communication, etc.) are both ahead of the TSX. Stereo wise, I'd just go for the aftermarket, as the TSX's doesn't sound that good anyway.
I'm not convinced you own a TSX either. Sounds like you have it in for the TSX (or acura) and sport some predilection for the base BMW. To each his own.
My test drive of the TSX went all the way from the dealer to the garage. My dissatisfaction was based on the zero-feedback steering alone. But the big guy of the family hopped from the living room into the driver seat w/o a test drive. He complimented the nice instrumentation, way-more-elegant-than-Accord interior, & head room, & asked me if the car will become unstable at high speed. "Are you kidding!", I said, "it doesn't even lose composure cornering hard over bumpy roads". Then he decided to buy one in a few days. He wasn't convinced to purchase a German 3-series based on his past experience of the C220's power-seat $2000 repair estimate not covered by the non-factory extended warranty.