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Acura TSX
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Is the big guy your dad? Boss? God?
BTW, while i like my BMW, I'm very worried about how it will hold up in the long run. My Jetta was in the shop for so many niggling issues that I began to think all German cars are my relatives way of getting back at Americans for Post-WWI treaties.
I know your Jetta is not made in Germany. Your "4-dr M3" is not really a just-redesigned model & not made in S. Africa, either.
Sorry to hear about your parents.
The TSX is being promoted as a sports sedan. Shouldn't it perform like one? Re-read my previous post. The performance figures posted by MT for the TSX would have been fine 10 years ago but times have changed. These days you get economy cars performing as good or better than the TSX.
Pronunciation: pre-'stEzh, -'stEj
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French, from Middle French, conjuror's trick, illusion, from Latin praestigiae, plural, conjuror's tricks, from praestringere to graze, blunt, constrict, from prae- + stringere to bind tight -- more at STRAIN
Date: 1829
1 : standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion
2 : commanding position in people's minds
synonym see INFLUENCE
kdshapiro -- whether or not you personally agree, objects do carry prestige (in most cases, deservedly so). To wit: brand names such as Rolex, Bentley, Tiffany, and creations from folks with last names of Monet, Wright, and Stickley.
I was merely following your logic with the Elantra example. At that point, you hadn't yet mentioned anything about degrees of prestige -- only if a car had it or not.
Does a M3 carry more prestige than a 325i? For folks sensitive to the prestige an auto from BMW has, I suppose the answer would be "yes." But that won't change the fact that -- to those same folks -- even a 318Ti has more prestige than any Acura, even if Acuras offer more "goodness" in terms of reliability.
Obviously, it's all pretty subjective.
Wouldn't a Rolex (or a BMW) qualify as having prestige based on the fact that it is a "market leader?" Check out the third definition listed:
pres·tige ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-stzh, -stj)
n.
1. The level of respect at which one is regarded by others; standing.
2. A person's high standing among others; honor or esteem.
3. Widely recognized prominence, distinction, or importance: a position of prestige in diplomatic circles.
Notice how a "position" can have prestige, not just a person.
Can we get back to the subject please?
Nobody I know uses the following thought process: "I have x dollars to spend on a car and I am going to get the car with the most goodies for my money".
Then you don't know people, like me, who value their money. I prefer to set an upper limit on expense and try to get the most out of it. You can be sure that I am not the only person who would do that.
While I might not get a car because it visually and viscerally doesn't appeal to me, if most buyers are like me a car is acquired based on it's total package.
This is something I agree with. Overall package is something I value the most, instead of looking at one or the other attribute. My car need not be the best in anything; it needs to be good in everything.
A Rolex does not have prestige, it might have value, be expensive, be exclusive, but it does not have prestige.
I disagree. A Rolex may not be the best in what it is supposed to do, but it does have a cachet, brand recognition, and that makes it prestigious.
bmw_fan
The TSX is being promoted as a sports sedan. Shouldn't it perform like one? Re-read my previous post. The performance figures posted by MT for the TSX would have been fine 10 years ago but times have changed. These days you get economy cars performing as good or better than the TSX.
TSX is being promoted as a near luxury sport sedan. IMO, it certainly appears to justify the promotion, and not unlike the other two cars MT compared it against (which, BTW, were slower than TSX). Why would you use MT's performance numbers to judge cars and not C&D's numbers (posted above)? Or is the C&D number for TSX too slow as well? That said, what kind of performance do you expect from a sport sedan today? If you can respond on that, we will have a starting point to discuss something.
Lack of consistency in arguments reveals confusion on your part. If you want to judge car A to economy cars in terms of performance, just do the same with car B. Today, not just economy cars, but mainstream family cars like Accord and Altima are way quicker than many sport sedans. And then there is a developing breed of muscle cars, from Subaru and Mitsubishi, that can put a lot of sport sedans to shame as well.
himiler
I was merely following your logic with the Elantra example. At that point, you hadn't yet mentioned anything about degrees of prestige -- only if a car had it or not.
I pointed out an issue with your example. If something is good, does that make it as good or better than something else? NIMO. Let us use what Mr. Webster said:
"1 : standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion"
What makes a car good? Is it not the standing or estimation in the eyes of people? Or, is it something else?
"2 : commanding position in people's minds. Synonym see INFLUENCE"
Does Accord command a position in the market? IMO, it does. It may not be a prestigious car along the lines of, say, a Bentley, but it does influence the decision making process of a lot of buyers in America. It has a reputation (prestige), because people look at it as a good car (prestige).
Oh, well.
Brand cachet or recognition to me is not same as prestige IMO. But hey, if you think inanimate objects have prestige, I'm not going to dissaude you. I believe BMW has a certain brand recognition, that I don't confuse with prestige.
AKA The Honda Syndrome.
People are entitled to their opinions - using dictionary definitions to try to somehow "prove" an opinion is "wrong" is completely futile, pointless, distracting and not helpful to a thoughtful discussion here.
Move on please.
It's kind of difficult to assertain whether or not the TSX has as much prestige as a 325i if we can't come to a consensus on the meaning of it.
The word, prestige, is just too loose to be used universally as having a single meaning. For me, it is not difficult to conclude that Acura TSX has prestige. Is it as much prestigious as, say, 325? Again, it would depend on the usage of the word. If it is about reputation, then TSX as a car is too new and most people will not even recognize it at this time. If it is about reputation of the brand, then Acura, and in general Honda, holds its own, as does BMW. Different strokes.
As far as dealing with good goes, and you may disagree with it but, if something is good because it has the reputation of being good for a reason.
kdshapiro
But I don't want a FWD car. I value my money also, but I buy a car based on the total package, not the quality of the audio, not the feel of the leather in the seats, not the "number" of different doohickeys or gadgets in the car. Value to me is a mix of look, style, and road manners, and gadgets. Not singling out interior ergonomics and gadgets and basing a decision on that. Which is what seemed to be implied in the above post.
And I don't disagree with that notion. But speaking of ES300, it may not be your or my cup of tea, but it certainly is a good package for a lot of people. The car is refined, comfortable, luxurious and perceived ultra-reliable at a decent price. Style, again, some people like it, others don't. I don't see a point why one or two attributes (FWD and sporty handling) would take away its strengths when the car delivers what it promises.
Arguments can go either way. Some times, however, it is just a matter of understanding the term, value. Is a car good value for the money, compared to the cars that it competes with? IMO, that is one weakness that Acura RL has and Acura TL does not.
Period! So what? (don't answer that!)
MOVE ON.
Thank you.
:-)
BTW, you mentioned power shopper in another forum but all I can find are links to things like cars.com and carsdirect. Is that what you meant? If so, I think I'll stick with my tried and true autotrader.
I can't find it either. I'll get back to you.
Edit: try http://apps.edmunds.com/apps/ups/UsedPowerShopper?tid=edmunds.h..- - - partners..6.*
Maybe that is what you already found. And we probably should continue via email on this subject ...
I think you are wrong very very wrong. That is why I got rid of my M3. It was very expensive to fix if things were not covered under warranty.
Frankly, I don't think the above makes sense at all. A car in a shop is a "minor nuisance" ? Hey, I value my time a lot and if I have to spend a couple of hours transporting my disabled car to the dealership, that directly impacts me...my time is worth a lot more than that. I could expend the same time/effort for more worthy matters.
Later...AH
I think it's also safe to say that the more expensive a car is the more expensive it is to fix out of warranty. A $70,000 M5 probably will cose more to fix than a Hyundia Elantra for the same type of repair.
I certainly do care about out of warranty repair bills, but I don't automatically agree a BMW will have less or more out of warranty repairs than a comparable competitor regardless of the country of manufactur.
See performance figures for the BMW 325i. Afterall, BMW created the "sports sedan" category and naturally they are the benchmarks.
"I think you are wrong very very wrong. That is why I got rid of my M3. It was very expensive to fix if things were not covered under warranty."
Maybe you're just being cheap? I know of some people who buy another BMW if their other ones were not to their likings. I don't know you personally so I don't know your particular financial situation.
"Frankly, I don't think the above makes sense at all. A car in a shop is a "minor nuisance" ? Hey, I value my time a lot and if I have to spend a couple of hours transporting my disabled car to the dealership, that directly impacts me...my time is worth a lot more than that. I could expend the same time/effort for more worthy matters."
Then don't buy a BMW if it's too much inconvenience for you. What's so time consuming about dropping your car off at the service department and picking up a loaner car?
And RWD 50/50 weight distribution as long as tractionm holds it is grat no torque steer, perefect balance. But when it goes all hell breaks loose even if you are a very skilled driver! Also RWD sucks in any kind of adverse weather or road conditions, even wet car wash tires.
I would venture to say that some of the BMW opinions are not based on real experience but guestamates. Which is good to believe that BMW is that great, the utlimate driving machine, but not realistic.
Any mass component failures from any other manufacturer also not withstanding, you might be in the minority with your M3. At least your transmission didn't blow up and leave you stranded. One more thing, my other older cars, Fords and Toyotas weren't too cheap to fix after warranty either, and those cars got thousands in repairs, but it was cheaper than buying a new car.
Unlike the Ferrari however, you rarely ever hear about issues about a need to "fix" an NSX. To fix an NSX (due to its Aluminium alloy construction) and also due to the exotic materials used within it, should be way more than the cost to "fix" a regular 911 or a much lesser BMW M3.
If it is solely a matter of reliable construction, I will pick a Honda over a BMW, any day of the year, day or night. Unfortunately, Honda does not build any RWD sedans, that truly can be called competitors of the BMW 3-series, which is a shame. Until that happens, maybe those of us who love Honda's engineering approach to solving difficult technical challenges, will have to make do with less-reliable BMWs, if one wants a RWD sedan with terrific driving dynamics. JMHO.
Incidentally, while working in Munich, Germany, I have been to the BMW plant and also the BMW museum. A HUGE (and welcome) departure from a typical Ford, Chrysler or a GM plant !!
Later...AH
I have no idea how you could possibly lose $21K in deprec on an M3 in three years, unless you paid some absurb markup over list when you bought it new.
In general, BMWs 3-series cars hold their value very well. This is one reason they have such excellent lease rates.
- Mark
There are many cars I rarely hear about issues with, that doesn't mean there aren't any. I also don't hear about any issues with Ferrai's as I don't really track that car.
But an educated guess that the cost to fix out of warranty issues with the NSX is commesurate with it's price tag.
And tell everyone what your best car was right before you die.<G>TC
no one denies the most reliable cars can be lemons and the worst reliable cars can be trouble free. but to conclude from this that your chances of getting a trouble free car are not any better by getting one that's rated high in terms of reliability as opposed to low is not understanding mathematic probability.
not quite sure what you meant by the JD Powers comment other than that problems reported are not really problems. example, the hummer getting low gas mileage shouldn't be classified as a "problem".
i currently drive a jetta and knew ahead of time that i'll be getting a problematic car. this didn't stop me from getting one though for i liked how the car drove and felt.
hondas are above average in reliability. deal with it.
Yes they are, except for the people I know who have had transmissions replaced and cars bought back under the lemon laws. But I fully agree other than my poor friends cases they are reliable. so I'm not sure what your point is.
the current accords or at least the earlier ones are probably only "average". the civic and odyssey both had "bugs" in their first year of the current design. i think the tsx will be good out of the box because honda's japanese plants seem to have better quality control. if you're to believe jd powers, japanese made accords had 25 fewer problems per 100 in their last initial quality survey.
as far as first hand experience goes, i do notice that the japanese accords are assembled better than the ohio ones. i can look over the car and tell if it's ohio or japanese made 10 out of 10 times. the latest thing i noticed is that there are tape marks at the bottom of the rear bumpers (as in out of sight). no such marks on the japanese made accords. too bad none of the v6 models are assembled in japan because that's the engine i'll be getting if i get an accord.
First, I couldn't find a 325i with an MSRP under $35,000.
Then, despite being a skilled car shopper and negotiator, I couldn't get a dealer (I visited two - about 60 miles apart from each other) to come down more than about $800 from the sticker.
Finally, after getting great information (here at Edmunds, and elsewhere) about current BMW lease deals (money factors and residuals), both dealers told me my info was incorrect and quoted me figures significantly higher than I wanted to pay.
So to make a long story short, I am now the proud owner of a 2004 Acura TSX!
I admit it was #2 on my list because it's not quite the driver's car that the 325i is, but it's a terrific 8/10ths sport sedan that's fun to drive, beautiful to behold, loaded to the gills, and a screaming bargain. Mine's lipstick red with tan leather interior and 6-speed MT.
I'm thrilled!